Registered Electrical Contractors Failing to Comply With Regulations

Irish Steve

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

that is non-compliance

attic cables have to be laid in an 'orderly' manner

That helps, and NOT putting a couple of 4" nails into the joists to hang the cables over prior to the plasterboards going up would be a big help too. Had huge hassles here with cables twisted and looped round nails to keep them in place, as the nails were left there after the boards were up, so when the cables were pulled down a bit to get slack for second fix, the loops round the nails went tight, and in some cases, damaged the insulation, so mega work to make good.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

That helps, and NOT putting a couple of 4" nails into the joists to hang the cables over prior to the plasterboards going up would be a big help too. Had huge hassles here with cables twisted and looped round nails to keep them in place, as the nails were left there after the boards were up, so when the cables were pulled down a bit to get slack for second fix, the loops round the nails went tight, and in some cases, damaged the insulation, so mega work to make good.

Snap! I think we may have had the "privilege" of sharing the same electrics contractor. Was yours allergic to measuring tapes, spirit levels & chalk lines by any chance ??:)

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Snap! I think we may have had the "privilege" of sharing the same electrics contractor. Was yours allergic to measuring tapes, spirit levels & chalk lines by any chance ??:)

How was the quality of his work ie. cable termination at socket/switches/light fittings, panel/fuseboard work?

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

How was the quality of his work ie. cable termination at socket/switches/light fittings, panel/fuseboard work?

Appalling.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Appalling.

How come his work quaility did not come into question in his annual inspection by ECSSA/RECI?

tomdempsey200

WikiHow wrote: »

How come his work quaility did not come into question in his annual inspection by ECSSA/RECI?

a lot of untidy stuff as you said isn't covered by wiring rules or will pass under the radar

sloppy laying of cables

untidy wiring at outlets

untidy wiring at fusebox

sockets up/down and off-level

connections not fully tightened



...annual inspections would only pull you on wiring rules breaches

tidy attic wiring however(among other things) is covered by wiring rules now

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

How come his work quaility did not come into question in his annual inspection by ECSSA/RECI?

Have a read of posts 1 & 2 on this thread.
I think you will come to the same conclusion that I have.

17larsson

I can't vouch for ECSSA but I have some heard some wonderful stories. However the RECI inspectors I have come across have been extremely thorough

Irish Steve

I think both myself and 2011 had the misfortune to have the same or similar sparks, ( maybe our spark trained his spark, given the time difference) and here, they were doing what they did long before RECI and ECSSA were doing much if anything, so yes, nails in joists to tie cables to or round, overcrowded ducts down walls for lights, untidy wiring in attics, breaker panels that resembled birds nests, and had no order to the way things were connected to the neutral and earth bus bars, and no labels to indicate what each breaker controlled, earths sleeved with whatever piece of stripped insulation came to hand first, and certainly not green and yellow, lighting circuits in roof void joined with 3 way tag strips but not in a box, just taped around, and the earths twisted together, no earths to lighting boxes, boxes fixed to the wall with a gap between them and the trunking, so sand and cement preventing removing and drawing in new cables, boxes nailed to the walls or studding, sometimes with only one nail, and not square, boxed fitted out of true so a short screw one side, and a long screw the other in order to make it fit at all, TV, phone and alarm wiring very haphazard, and nothing labelled at the termination points, it took me for ever to work out what was what on the alarm.

another beauty is multi switch lighting, where working out what is actually "OFF" is a challenge, in theory, as far as I'm concerned, if all the switches are top of switch "in", the circuit should be off, but the number of houses I see where that's not the case, on one gang as well as multi way lighting is only woeful. The spark had started on the heating, but again, partly because he was using completely inappropriate wire in a control panel fused at 3 amps, he's only done about 1/3 of it, and then stopped because the wires wouldn't fit the terminals.

The list is almost endless, and unfortunately, we had no choice about moving in, between the new school year, and some nasty revenue stamp duty issues, we had to move in by a specific date. There were all manner of issues that had to be sorted after we were in, both by the builder, and some I did myself, because I had zero confidence that the spark was going to do the job correctly, based on what I'd found when going round. It wasn't a direct contract, the spark was working for and paid by the builder.

I couldn't afford over IR£6,000 (1990) of extra stamp duty, which is what we'd have had to pay if we'd not been in by Sept 1st, and I suspect the spark knew that and took full advantage of it. The Govt of the day changed the stamp duty rules in the budget after we'd signed our contract for the house to be built, but that didn't stop them then hitting us with the new rules when our build was delayed by planning issues, and 6K then in terms of the overall price would be the equivalent of over 20K today, we just didn't have that sort of money on top of what we'd budgeted.

So, yes, I'm afraid that my attitude towards registered tradesmen is more than a little jaundiced, and quite a few things I've seen in the last 10 years, mostly on commercial installations, have done nothing to change that view.

In passing, what is it with ETCI that they prefer 1.5 double insulated single cables for lighting, I did a house in the UK in the mid 70's, and the standard there was to use 2 core twin, (or 2 core twin and earth, depending on how many switches there were, and it was so much easier to work with than 1.5 double insulated singles here? Trying to get 3 1.5'a into a small wall light is a nightmare, especially if it's more than one light, so the wiring has multiple cores to each connection, they are so heavy when compared to the cable that then goes the rest of the way up the fitting, I find myself wondering whey the rules are structured the way they are.

The other major difference is that the UK has much more in the way of Ring mains, here I have yet to see a ring main, it's all radial and spur.

Another thing that would make life so much easier would be a 1 mm 3 core and earth cable for things like thermostats and lighting drops, again, it would be so much easier for threading and subsequent identification, as well as getting the things onto the backplate. Ok, using singles has the advantage of making it easier to put in 2 or 3 browns for lighting, but there are ways round that which should be acceptable, and the downside of 3 brown singles in a box is working out which one is which when connection up the switch, and multiple nicks in the insulation to number them is not ideal.

liveandnetural

i worked in the states for a few years and every job had a first fix inspection (thats what needed here for all!!!! the the trades)

Irish Steve

From a thread over in plumbing.

So recently we had a change of tenants. Again boiler was low so I topped it up. Room thermostat had been broken so that was replaced by electrician. After that boiler would not fire, upon investigation it turned out the room thermostat was wired incorrectly and was subsequently re-wired and the boiler fired up.

4 wires to a thermostat, how difficult is it to get them the right way round? Live in, live return, neutral ( in some cases for the thing to work) and earth. Get the 2 lives the wrong way round, and the compensator system is live all the time when it shouldn't be. Is this down to not being able to get adequately or appropriately coloured cable to set it up to a standard?
Is there a standard for thermostat wiring?

tomdempsey200

Irish Steve wrote: »

From a thread over in plumbing.



4 wires to a thermostat, how difficult is it to get them the right way round? Live in, live return, neutral ( in some cases for the thing to work) and earth. Get the 2 lives the wrong way round, and the compensator system is live all the time when it shouldn't be. Is this down to not being able to get adequately or appropriately coloured cable to set it up to a standard?
Is there a standard for thermostat wiring?

There's lots of different stats apart from the mains 4wire
different voltages
2 wire 3 wire 4 wire 5 wire
Wireless

Irish Steve

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

There's lots of different stats apart from the mains 4wire
different voltages
2 wire 3 wire 4 wire 5 wire
Wireless

I know....... An electrician, fitting a new stat, that should in theory have fitting instructions supplied by the manufacturer, should be able to fit it without getting it wrong, regardless of how many wires it has, or what colour the cores are, or any other aspect, and if he can't, then I would have to question the quality of the training and experience of the electrician.

Bruthal

Irish Steve wrote: »

I know....... An electrician, fitting a new stat, that should in theory have fitting instructions supplied by the manufacturer, should be able to fit it without getting it wrong, regardless of how many wires it has, or what colour the cores are, or any other aspect, and if he can't, then I would have to question the quality of the training and experience of the electrician.

I got one wrong once. Took up woodwork then.

tomdempsey200

Irish Steve wrote: »

I know....... An electrician, fitting a new stat, that should in theory have fitting instructions supplied by the manufacturer, should be able to fit it without getting it wrong, regardless of how many wires it has, or what colour the cores are, or any other aspect, and if he can't, then I would have to question the quality of the training and experience of the electrician.

It can be a nightmare when there's a bunch of wires at a board or multigang switch and they're all the same colour or wrong colours

E. Fudd

This really is turning into a thread on how useless registered electricians are and how great Irish Steve is. I'm a registered contractor and feel that I'm getting somewhat tarred with the same brush. Anybody reading this thread really is going to get a very bad impression of registered contractor which is quite unfair to legitimate and compliant contractors like myself.

Bruthal

E. Fudd wrote: »

This really is turning into a thread on how useless registered electricians are and how great Irish Steve is. I'm a registered contractor and feel that I'm getting somewhat tarred with the same brush. Anybody reading this thread really is going to get a very bad impression of registered contractor which is quite unfair to legitimate and compliant contractors like myself.

Well, there are plenty of useless tradesmen out there. So now, we are all tar'd

Irish Steve

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

It can be a nightmare when there's a bunch of wires at a board or multigang switch and they're all the same colour or wrong colours

Tell me about it..... found the same when my parents asked me to have a look at their heating system a few years ago, Had a stat that needed a neutral return for the booster resistor, and it was a 3 wire cable, someone had cheated when the stat was upgraded, and used the Earth as the live return, and a neighbour had fitted a new stat for them 12 months earlier, and the earth had not unreasonably gone to the earth terminal, so the stat was sitting there doing absolutely nothing for 12 months.

That was partly what inspired my question/comments earlier about multi core cables for things like thermostats in the standards, I've seen quite a few where the colours are ambiguous or worse, or the earth is not an earth any more, and sorting it does mean going and finding the panel or connection boxes where the split happens, which can make a mockery of trying to do a quick and reasonable price job.

tomdempsey200

E. Fudd wrote: »

This really is turning into a thread on how useless registered electricians are and how great Irish Steve is.

true:D

Irish Steve

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

true:D

Did I say the thermostat at my parents was fitted by an electrician?

It wasn't.

After 40 + years of working with electrical items, systems and electronics, I would hope I do know what I'm doing, and when to walk away from some things, which i have done.

I didn't post the thread in Plumbing section. I just mentioned it here.

My original issue is that if I as the owner, and responsible for a property am going to be forced to use a registered contractor to do certain jobs, then I don't believe that it is unreasonable to expect the registering body to be carrying out a very high level of supervision and inspection of the people that are carrying out the work, given the appalling standards of work that became evident during the Celtic Tiger years.

If RECI and ECSSA are not carrying out those inspections, and reporting on them in an open manner, then when a case like the electrician bypassing the RCD comes up, people like me, who are every bit as conscientious as the good contractors but are legally prohibited from doing work that we have been well capable of doing for a long time are going to be more than a bit vocal about the failings of the people that are not supposed to fail.

There are good and conscientious registered contractors out there, I've met and worked along side some, but there are also some that really should not be still working in the trade. If the customers, or potential customers were not being forced to use registered contractors, fair enough, but as there is now no choice in the matter, i don't feel it is unreasonable to expect the absolutely highest standards of work, and supervision. Doctors and nurses, and other medical professions can be brought before a fitness to practice committee, I don't recall hearing about or seeing any reports from RECI or ECSSA about their inquiries into members that are not performing, and having 2 bodies to regulate one profession makes for the possibility of a contractor moving from one to the other if there are "problems" with that contractors relationship with the supervisory body, and unless there is absolute openness and transparency from the regulatory bodies, there will be cause for genuine concern that the regulators are not doing what they are there for.

tomdempsey200

i was reci member 15 yrs

there was little or no supervision ime

you could basically do what you like

unless reci got a complaint from a customer there was just the annual pre-arranged inspection where you picked a nice tidy job for them to look at


maybe it's tightened up a bit in the 2 yrs since i left

cast_iron

Irish Steve wrote: »

If RECI and ECSSA are not carrying out those inspections, and reporting on them in an open manner, then when a case like the electrician bypassing the RCD comes up, people like me, who are every bit as conscientious as the good contractors but are legally prohibited from doing work that we have been well capable of doing for a long time are going to be more than a bit vocal about the failings of the people that are not supposed to fail.

Whatever about you, how do you think a qualified electrician feels when he can't do work in his own home as he is not "registered"? He has his papers to say he is competent, but still can't do it.

I suppose, in reality, it's a general trend towards weeding out a nixer culture and the DIYers. The fact that a qualified electrician can't do work in his own home wasn't really the aim, but a consequence.

All in all, not a bad intention.

There are good and conscientious registered contractors out there, I've met and worked along side some, but there are also some that really should not be still working in the trade. If the customers, or potential customers were not being forced to use registered contractors, fair enough, but as there is now no choice in the matter, i don't feel it is unreasonable to expect the absolutely highest standards of work, and supervision.

Like in all businesses, there are the good and the bad. If you know and have worked with some good sparks, hire them to do the work for you rather than taking a blind punt. Go for an established contractor with a good name and reputation and you won't go too far wrong.