Advice on getting a tenant out

djimi

Páid wrote: »

I also should have said that the landlord must give a minimum amount of notice to the tenant when terminating depending on how long the tenant has been there - http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/good-landlord-guides/good-landlord-guide-(english).pdf?sfvrsn=4

Not when the tenancy is being terminated for non-payment of rent. In this case its 14 days notice of arrears followed by 28 notice of termination, regardless of the length of the tenancy.

H3llR4iser

enricoh wrote: »

hi, i am looking for some solid info on how to get rid of a tenant thats not paying rent.
a good mate of mine is an accidental landlord - split up with the missus (who's now abroad), n couldnt afford to live in house after going on a 3 day week at work.
an estate agent got a family to move in. yer man had a good snag list to sort out on day one, but as i said to my mate at least u've someone in. i gave him a hand fencing n sorting out the garden one weekend n met the guy n he seemed decent. (i could tell an irish scumbag a mile away but he's foreign) a couple of months later n 100 would be docked from rent for a phantom plumber, next month 150 for a spark etc. no rent paid in december or this month n laughs when my friend rings looking!
my mate now is getting a local heavy to throw the guy out at the weekend which i think is a bad plan n leaves him open to getting sued. or is it ok as he has broken terms of lease?
the guy works n is not on rent allowance if this makes any odds n is in house 6-8 months, cheers

Needless to say, the "local heavy" (which I assume is some sort of menacing scumbag/group of the same) way is indeed the stupidest possible idea.

It would be very useful to have some additional information - what are the reasons that led to the tenant not paying rent? Has the "snag list" from day one been sorted out fully, prodiving it contained reasonable requests? What happened when the "ghost" plumber bill came out? If the tenant just decided to chance their luck and not pay then well, your friend should go ahead and exercise his legal rights; If however the latter didn't perform the necessary repairs or services and failed to provide a suitable property to the tenant, it's a whole different story.

Páid

djimi wrote: »

Not when the tenancy is being terminated for non-payment of rent. In this case its 14 days notice of arrears followed by 28 notice of termination, regardless of the length of the tenancy.

I disagree. You have missed step 1 - Give the tenant Notice that they have breached their obligation to pay rent;

Where a landlord seeks to terminate a Part 4 tenancy (a tenancy of duration longer than 6 months) because the tenant has failed to pay rent, the following three-step procedure must be followed:
1. Give the tenant Notice that they have breached their obligation to pay rent;
2. Serve a 14-day Warning Notice for failure to pay rent;
3. Serve a 28-day Notice of Termination of the Tenancy.

Step 1 can be a verbal notice and the tenant has a "reasonable amount of time to remedy the arrears".

Only then can step 2 & 3 be carried out.

If the tenancy is within six months the landlord can terminate for any reason and give only 28 days notice i.e. they don't have to follow the procedure when terminating for rent arrears which would take longer.

The tenant still owes the landlord the same amount of money either way.

djimi

What are you disagreeing about? You have just re-posted what I said...

The 28 days notice within 6 months only applies where no fixed term lease is in effect, which is fairly unlikely in most cases in the first year of a tenancy (very few landlords will rent without at least 1 year fixed term these days). If it applies then fair enough, it is the quickest route to sort the issue, but after 6 months, and in the majority of cases really, the arrears procedure must be followed, which has fixed notice periods that are not related to the length of the tenancy.

Páid

What are you disagreeing about? You have just re-posted what I said...

No I haven't, you are missing step 1. Before you can serve the 14-day Warning Notice for failure to pay rent you must first notify the tenant that they are in rent arrears and allow them a reasonable time to rectify the problem. This is an informal process and the notice can be verbal. Only then can you proceed to step 2.

D3PO

Páid wrote: »

No I haven't, you are missing step 1. Before you can serve the 14-day Warning Notice for failure to pay rent you must first notify the tenant that they are in rent arrears and allow them a reasonable time to rectify the problem. This is an informal process and the notice can be verbal. Only then can you proceed to step 2.

What the hell are you talking about. Show me where in the RTA you have to give verbal notice and then reasonable time before issuing notice of arrears .....

Djimi is right.

djimi

Páid wrote: »

No I haven't, you are missing step 1. Before you can serve the 14-day Warning Notice for failure to pay rent you must first notify the tenant that they are in rent arrears and allow them a reasonable time to rectify the problem. This is an informal process and the notice can be verbal. Only then can you proceed to step 2.

Fine. Thats not what I was disagreeing with though. You seemed to be suggesting that the length of notice is tied to the length of the tenancy, and that is not the case when issuing notice for arrears.

Páid

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/information-on-terminating-a-tenancy-for-rent-arrears

STEP ONE:
Notice of breach of obligation the landlord must notify the tenant that:
the tenant is in arrears of rent;
the tenant is allowed a reasonable time to remedy that breach of obligation;
the landlord is entitled to terminate the tenancy if the tenant fails to remedy that breach of obligation within the period specified.
This first notification does not need to be in writing. A landlord can give a tenant verbal notice of the rent arrears but must ensure that the tenant is aware that failure to pay the rent arrears within a reasonable time will result in the landlord terminating the tenancy. As a landlord may need to give evidence that this has been communicated to the tenant, it may be prudent to give this notice in writing.
A sample written version of this Notice is available below.
Within this first Notice, the landlord must give the tenant “a reasonable time” to pay the rent arrears. What is “reasonable” can vary given the circumstances of the case.

STEP TWO:
14 day warning notice for failure to pay rent, where a tenant falls into rent arrears, the landlord must serve a written notice on the tenant informing him or her of the amount of rent that is due. The landlord must then give the tenant 14 days to pay those rent arrears. A sample Notice for the 14-day Warning Notice can be found here.

STEP THREE:
28 day notice of termination, if the tenant fails to pay the rent due within 14 days of receipt of the written notice at point 2, the landlord may proceed to terminate the tenancy by serving a 28 day notice of termination. A sample Notice can be found here.

When a tenant goes into arrears you cannot just server the 14 notice without any warning. You must start with step one or the tenant would have grounds that the correct procedure was not followed.

All assuming there is no fixed term lease.

Páid

djimi wrote: »

Fine. Thats not what I was disagreeing with though. You seemed to be suggesting that the length of notice is tied to the length of the tenancy, and that is not the case when issuing notice for arrears.

Agreed. My point was that if it was within the first six months of the tenancy it would be quicker not to use the rent arrears termination procedure.

D3PO

what a pile of crap "reasonable notice" without defining it means nothing. A call to a tenant advising them you will be issuing notice of arrears covers "step 1"

Unless you can point to a PRTB tribunal finding an eviction to be illegal due to insufficient notice of step 1 being applied its nothing more than an admin step informing the tenant you are about to begin the arrears process.

Páid

I didn't write the rules and there is no need to be so hostile.

djimi

Páid wrote: »

Agreed. My point was that if it was within the first six months of the tenancy it would be quicker not to use the rent arrears termination procedure.

Assuming there is no fixed term lease. Which in the vast majority of cases there will be in the first year!

quietsailor

Páid wrote: »

Agreed. My point was that if it was within the first six months of the tenancy it would be quicker not to use the rent arrears termination procedure.

Hmmm, I have friends/friends of friends renting rooms off me at the moment (Part 4 rather than fixed term*) and 2 of them are always late with the rent.

Is it really an advantage to use this, can the PRTB see it as a way of sidestepping the procedures?

* = I rent out close to a college so there is a high demand, fixed term or not doesn't really worry me as most students want a 9 month lease

djimi

quietsailor wrote: »

Hmmm, I have friends/friends of friends renting rooms off me at the moment (Part 4 rather than fixed term*) and 2 of them are always late with the rent.

Is it really an advantage to use this, can the PRTB see it as a way of sidestepping the procedures?

* = I rent out close to a college so there is a high demand, fixed term or not doesn't really worry me as most students want a 9 month lease

Where no lease is in place, in the first six months you don't need to give a reason to terminate the tenancy, so the PRTB can have no issue. Plus constantly late rent would be seen as a perfectly valid reason to terminate in this situation.

UCDVet

Just an honest question from someone who is clueless but....

A lot of things I read about tenant/landlord obligations say things about 'X days notice' - but what determines when those days start counting?

If I'm out of town for a month and the landlord mails me a written notice that I'm being thrown out in 14 days, for example, does that start when he mails it? Or when I receive it? Or when I read it?

quietsailor

UCDVet wrote: »

Just an honest question from someone who is clueless but....

A lot of things I read about tenant/landlord obligations say things about 'X days notice' - but what determines when those days start counting?

If I'm out of town for a month and the landlord mails me a written notice that I'm being thrown out in 14 days, for example, does that start when he mails it? Or when I receive it? Or when I read it?

I would think when it enters the property your renting.

The landlord can't use the date it's written as they could write it today then hand it to you in 13 days time and you have 1 days notice.

Waiting until you've read it doesn't make sense either as you can claim you never read it so the 14 days would never start.

I'd think 14 days from the arrival of the letter at the house. From a landlords perspective I'd use tracked post, a courier or hand deliver it with either a witness or a picture with a dated paper in it which I'd then email to myself as further proof

The landlord is supposed to give you peaceful enjoyment of the property so you can't now argue to the PRTB that they should have kept calling around until you answered the door - that's harassing you - so you can't use "I wasn't here and the landlord didn't call to check" as a reason to ignore the notice.

I'm starting to see more and more instances like this where the tenancy laws are going to work against tenants, my own case - where I'm near a college and it's usually a 9 month lease with cheaper rents over summer is another example.If its a 12 month lease a tenant couldn't get a reduction in the summer as I'm breaking the law to do so.

Mr. Incognito

Your "friend" should have the tenancy registered with the PRTB and his fees up to date.

The requirements for a valid notice of termination are set down in the Residential Tenancies Act



Issuing of the Notice is in accordance with Section 6


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0006.html#sec6

(a) by delivering it to the person;

(b) by leaving it at the address at which the person ordinarily resides or, in a case in which an address for service has been furnished, at that address;

(c) by sending it by post in a prepaid letter to the address at which the person ordinarily resides or, in a case in which an address for service has been furnished, to that address;

(d) where the notice relates to a dwelling and it appears that no person is in actual occupation of the dwelling, by affixing it in a conspicuous position on the outside of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling.

In the courts rules and legislation prepaid post normally means ordinary post but can apply equally to registered mail. In practice I would normally carry out two services. Personal and post so that there is no doubt.

The grounds for termination are set out in S 34
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0034.html#sec34

The Landlord has to give the tenant notice of the breach and time to correct the remedy. This is where step one is coming from in the PRTB steps.

After that it is the correct Notice of Termination steps with the periods of time as set out in the legislation/ PRTB website.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0067.html#sec67

14 days and 28 days.

The days are counted from the receipt by the tenant of the notice. So in practice again, I would post one and the next day serve it personally. The date after posting is then counted as day one.

The MOST important item in the Notice of Termination is the form. It should state the date it takes effect from and the date it expires and that the tenant has the right to appeal the Notice of Termination to the PRTB. This is one of the most frequent reasons that Notices of Termination are held to be invalid.

There is a list of Determinations on the PRTB site which is useful if you have any specific queries.

The above is not intended as legal advice nor should it be relied upon and is for informational purposes only

Traditional

one way that might persuade them to move as a friend of mine did , was to inform them the house or apt is up for sale , and he got a for sale sign up in garden , and they packed up an left !!
you could also cancel all bills with the esb ,water rates, gas.
as sure thats would be too cruel as well .
you could get onto the Landlords Association they will be on your side , forget about the prtb as they are on the tennants side.

enricoh

i printed out this thread n it convinced him not to get the heavies in yet. is heading to the letting agents monday morning he knows one of the lads in there well. he is registered with the ptrb which is a miracle in itself.

as for the "friend" bit moderator maybe i should'a pretended it was mine - would that keep u happy? i recommended a brand of tyre in motors before n someone said i owned a tyre shop!

djimi

Traditional wrote: »

you could also cancel all bills with the esb ,water rates, gas.

Bills should be in tenants name, but even if they arent it would be illegal to cut off utilities as a means to evict a tenant.

Traditional wrote: »

you could get onto the Landlords Association they will be on your side , forget about the prtb as they are on the tennants side.

Landlords associations might be alright for giving advice etc, but ultimately they cannot bypass the PRTB, which is the only legal route to pursue tenancy issues.

djimi

quietsailor wrote: »

I would think when it enters the property your renting.

The landlord can't use the date it's written as they could write it today then hand it to you in 13 days time and you have 1 days notice.

Waiting until you've read it doesn't make sense either as you can claim you never read it so the 14 days would never start.

I'd think 14 days from the arrival of the letter at the house. From a landlords perspective I'd use tracked post, a courier or hand deliver it with either a witness or a picture with a dated paper in it which I'd then email to myself as further proof

The landlord is supposed to give you peaceful enjoyment of the property so you can't now argue to the PRTB that they should have kept calling around until you answered the door - that's harassing you - so you can't use "I wasn't here and the landlord didn't call to check" as a reason to ignore the notice.

I'm starting to see more and more instances like this where the tenancy laws are going to work against tenants, my own case - where I'm near a college and it's usually a 9 month lease with cheaper rents over summer is another example.If its a 12 month lease a tenant couldn't get a reduction in the summer as I'm breaking the law to do so.

Im not sure that its sufficient for a landlord to drop a letter through the door (either in person or via An Post) and assume that the tenant recieves it. If the tenant can show that they were not at the property at the time (easy enough to do if they are on holidays for example) then the notice would not be valid, as they can prove that they did not receive it until they returned.

Traditional

the landlords association is very good at giving you the right documents for giving notice , so ring them monday and they will put an owner on the right path , belive me this is the best path .

Traditional

The landlords association is on the owners side
The Prtb is on the tennants side.

irishjig69b

Couple of the boys with baseball bats and a friendly chat (and that prtb is a joke)