Australian Open 2014

Alfred Borden · 24-01-2014 11:47am

Pighead wrote: »

In saying that Rafa is playing some absolutely incredible tennis. He is back to his very best and his unreal returning is forcing Fed to go for big first serves which is bringing his 1st serve percentage down.

As someone said yesterday in here Rafa is looking really good to pass out Roger's slam record.

Yup totally agree with this,nadal forcing federer to be aggressive is never going to end well for federer and its showing. Nadal looks the same player from a few years ago again and no signs of slowing down, definitely think he can pass his slam tally out if he wins this tournament out. Gutting but Federer wont be adding any more slams to his list for Rafa to chase.

the_monkey · 24-01-2014 11:50am

walshb wrote: »

Nadal goes to 14 slams should he win this one. Great chance at breaking Roger's slam record.

It's not about a "great chance" it's going to happen.

14, he'll win AT LEAST another 3 French Opens, and then AT LEAST a few from the rest ... I reckon he'll win about 22,23 slams in his career.

Fair play to him - pains me to say it

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 11:53am

Federer's unforced error count is always going to be higher than Nadal's, even if he was to win. No point referencing that. Nadal is a defensive moonballer. He just punts the ball back in court and waits for his opponent to make a mistake. So he rarely has a high UE count. The point will generally end with a Federer error or a Federer winner. If Federer wins the match, both those numbers are high. If he loses, the UE is high and the winners low.
Of course, it's almost impossible to get your winners higher than your UEs against a defensive grinder like Nadal on the slowest courts the sport has seen in its history.

walshb · 24-01-2014 12:00pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Federer's unforced error count is always going to be higher than Nadal's, even if he was to win. No point referencing that. Nadal is a defensive moonballer..

The point is that it gives Nadal a lot of games. It's massively important to reference it. Doesn't matter what Nadal is doing. They are unforced errors. Federer's problem. I would say that the count is mostly higher when he meets Nadal, making the point even more pertinent.

walshb · 24-01-2014 12:03pm

the_monkey wrote: »

It's not about a "great chance" it's going to happen.

14, he'll win AT LEAST another 3 French Opens, and then AT LEAST a few from the rest ... I reckon he'll win about 22,23 slams in his career.

Fair play to him - pains me to say it

Well, fatigue and injury and form are very important. 3 FO titles is probably a bit much. I would expect 2104 French title and maybe the US Open. Of course, Wimbledon is there for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he failed at SW19. Novak's form will be instrumental in Nadals' fortunes.

Too Tough To Die · 24-01-2014 12:04pm

Yes, the better the opposition the more 'unforced' errors a player is likely to make. It's not rocket science.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 12:04pm

walshb wrote: »

The point is that it gives Nadal a lot of games. It's massively important to reference it. Doesn't matter what Nadal is doing. They are unforced errors. Federer's problem. I would say that the count is mostly higher when he meets Nadal, making the point even more pertinent.

It's higher because Nadal is defensive and just punts the ball back continuously. Against other players, they don't do that. They either miss themselves more or don't get to as many of federer's shots, both of which reduces Fed's overall UE count.
And most of Fed's UEs against Nadal aren't UEs at all. They're the death rattle of a dying man who can't keep hitting the ball 30 times every rally and eventually just misses.

Alfred Borden · 24-01-2014 12:05pm

The only hope that Nadal doesnt catch him is Djokovic getting back to his best imo.

Slashermcguirk · 24-01-2014 12:06pm

Where is djokovic when you need him. The only player who can stand up to nadal

the_monkey · 24-01-2014 12:19pm

Slashermcguirk wrote: »

Where is djokovic when you need him. The only player who can stand up to nadal

Unfortunately I think Djokovic has seen his best, I'm still saying he won't win another slam ...

John.Icy · 24-01-2014 12:23pm

Nadal has the the best passing shot the sport will surely EVER see. Stunning.

I don't really know how to feel. I'm used to it by now but I still just don't see how he can go from normal unforced error counts against everyone and against Nadal it's sky high. Must be 60 of them tonight? You can say it's the better player causing more errors but Murray is a good match for Nadal and there isn't 20 or more unforced errors between them.

I do think Federers form is promising and he definitely has a good chance to keep beating Murray at the slams and I really think he could give Novak a game at Wimbledon (so long as he progresses through the rounds), but by god he hasn't a hope in hell if he meets Rafa in any slam.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 12:26pm

John.Icy wrote: »

I don't really know how to feel. I'm used to it by now but I still just don't see how he can go from normal unforced error counts against everyone and against Nadal it's sky high. Must be 60 of them tonight? You can say it's the better player causing more errors but Murray is a good match for Nadal and there isn't 20 or more unforced errors between them.

Again, if the ball keeps coming back at him because he's unable to hit winners past a defensive grinder like Nadal on slow courts then eventually he just misses.
Against other players, he doesn't get to the point of hitting a so-called UE because the point is over, either through his winner or the opponent's error.

Rjd2 · 24-01-2014 12:27pm

John.Icy wrote: »

I do think Federers form is promising and he definitely has a good chance to keep beating Murray at the slams and I really think he could give Novak a game at Wimbledon (so long as he progresses through the rounds), but by god he hasn't a hope in hell if he meets Rafa in any slam.

Beating up a regressing tsonga and a player in Murray just coming back from an injury does not make a revival sadly. Totally outclassed tonight.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 12:34pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Again, if the ball keeps coming back at him because he's unable to hit winners past a defensive grinder like Nadal on slow courts then eventually he just misses.
Against other players, he doesn't get to the point of hitting a so-called UE because the point is over, either through his winner or the opponent's error.

Think you're being a tad unfair on Nadal. He hit plenty of brilliant winners this morning. He hit that angled crosscourt forehand winner loads today. Obviously not as many winners as Roger but I doubt there was a whole lot between them.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 12:37pm

Pighead wrote: »

Think you're being a tad unfair on Nadal. He hit plenty of brilliant winners this morning. He hit that angled crosscourt forehand winner loads today. Obviously not as many winners as Roger but I doubt there was a whole lot between them.

Not usually winners in any kind of meaningful sense. The opponent has been rallying him for about 5 minutes at that stage. It's usually just a put away past a soul-destroyed opponent or one stranded at the net who's only there because he's desperately searching for some way to end the torture of playing this guy.

He never takes the initiative - he just finishes off people already beating by his grinding.

Slashermcguirk · 24-01-2014 12:40pm

Djokovic will finish with 10 slam I reckon. At least another oz and us open or 2 and should win 1 French, too good on clay not to. Still the only player to beat nadal 3 times on clay and was so close at the French last year

the_monkey wrote: »

Unfortunately I think Djokovic has seen his best, I'm still saying he won't win another slam ...

John.Icy · 24-01-2014 12:40pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

Beating up a regressing tsonga and a player in Murray just coming back from an injury does not make a revival sadly. Totally outclassed tonight sadly.

Take from it what you will I guess. At the end of the day people can make of it what they want, Federer totally outclassed Murray for 2 and a half sets who was still playing well and not suffering in the slightest till the 4th set. Federer looked a class act against Tsonga too who at the end of the day is a player who can beat the best.

Last year Federer was losing to players of Tsonga's standard and lower. Everyone was doubting him against Tsonga, 95% of people here gave him no chance against Murray and he got through it. Yes he was outclassed in the 2nd two sets (a tiebreak is hardly being outclassed lets be honest), but there was no tactical structure (total mess) and the backhand was nowhere near as solid as it's been and Federer drove I don't know how many shots into the net in a position where the point was up for grabs. It'll probably never happen against Nadal at a slam because there is a script these GS matches between them follows and it's not going to change unless Federer has a mental reset. But form is there and he's definitely taken a step forward and if he stays fit, there'll be more semi-finals and possibly a Wimbledon final pending if he can avoid Nadal as long as possible in draws.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 12:43pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Not usually winners in any kind of meaningful sense. The opponent has been rallying him for about 5 minutes at that stage. It's usually just a put away past a soul-destroyed opponent or one stranded at the net who's only there because he's desperately searching for some way to end the torture of playing this guy.

He never takes the initiative - he just finishes off people already beating by his grinding.

Absolute nonsense. You are severely underestimating Rafa's power and accuracy. A lot of his passing shots may look easy but that's because the shot prior has been put right in the corner leaving his opponent scrambling to get it back and being forced out of position. Also to claim Nadal is a 'defensive moonballer' is laughable.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 12:52pm

John.Icy wrote: »

Take from it what you will I guess. At the end of the day people can make of it what they want, Federer totally outclassed Murray for 2 and a half sets who was still playing well and not suffering in the slightest till the 4th set. Federer looked a class act against Tsonga too who at the end of the day is a player who can beat the best.

Last year Federer was losing to players of Tsonga's standard and lower.

Think it's a bit early to say that Roger has improved this season. You say he was losing to players like Tsonga last year but he actually beat Tsonga in the quarters in the Aussie Open as well in 2013.

He lost to Murray in the Semi's last year but I think most people will agree that Murray at 2014 Aussie Open is not quite the same Murray who played at 2013 Aussie Open.

I'll be very surprised if Roger wins any Slams this year (or ever again) and any improvements that may occur this year will be miniscule and not really worth talking about. In saying that he should improve on last years slam results given he went out so early in Wimbledon and the US Open.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 12:57pm

Pighead wrote: »

Also to claim Nadal is a 'defensive moonballer' is laughable.

What sport have you been watching for the last nine years? I've seen this guy play live. His shots clear the net by about 4 or 5 feet. He grinds his opponents down with long rallies where he just concentrates on keeping the ball in play until they make a mistake, aided by slow slow slow courts.
Not sure where the confusion is.

walshb · 24-01-2014 1:13pm

John.Icy wrote: »

Must be 60 of them tonight? .

50. Twice as high as Nadal's. Nadal is just putting the ball into the court. They are not forced errors.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 1:13pm

Mousewar wrote: »

What sport have you been watching for the last nine years? I've seen this guy play live. His shots clear the net by about 4 or 5 feet. He grinds his opponents down with long rallies where he just concentrates on keeping the ball in play until they make a mistake, aided by slow slow slow courts.
Not sure where the confusion is.

Think you need to find out what the term 'moonballing' means.

Nadal's shots may clear the net comfortably but he puts a ferocious amount of top spin on most of his shots. A moonball is miles away from this. Nadal's shots are way too aggressive to be considered moonballs.

Compare and contrast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Jmi739lvM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPnxNAMz8_s

the_monkey · 24-01-2014 1:15pm

Slashermcguirk wrote: »

Djokovic will finish with 10 slam I reckon. At least another oz and us open or 2 and should win 1 French, too good on clay not to. Still the only player to beat nadal 3 times on clay and was so close at the French last year

I hope you're right ..

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 1:16pm

He's not called the Mallorcan Moonballer for nothing.
Let's just leave it. I couldn't disagree with you more.

Up Seven · 24-01-2014 1:17pm

Mousewar wrote: »

What sport have you been watching for the last nine years? I've seen this guy play live. His shots clear the net by about 4 or 5 feet. He grinds his opponents down with long rallies where he just concentrates on keeping the ball in play until they make a mistake, aided by slow slow slow courts.
Not sure where the confusion is.

And then cheats by breaking the time allowance between points. He wouldn't be able to keep grinding for so long without cheating between points.

walshb · 24-01-2014 1:21pm

Excuses excuses excuses. Nadal is one of the greatest tennis players in history. He's phenomenal.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 1:21pm

Mousewar wrote: »

He's not called the Mallorcan Moonballer for nothing.
Let's just leave it. I couldn't disagree with you more.

Ha ha! And apart from some eejits on a few tennis forums around the world who exactly calls him the 'Mallorcan Moonballer'. That's like saying Amelie Mauresmo is definitely a man because you read it on a forum somewhere.

Up Seven · 24-01-2014 1:24pm

walshb wrote: »

Excuses excuses excuses. Nadal is one of the greatest tennis players in history. He's phenomenal.

Of course he is one of the greatest, but he still cheats.

walshb · 24-01-2014 1:27pm

Up Seven wrote: »

Of course he is one of the greatest, but he still cheats.

By the time allowances between points? I don't agree with that, but that says a lot more about the authorities for allowing a player to abuse the rule.

the_monkey · 24-01-2014 1:55pm

I think Nadal does rub a lot of people up the wrong way, his behaviour is annoying , he does over do it , and uses his agression to mentally bully players - over celebrating at small points - constant fist pumping , going on between games about his "injuries".

The other players are pros tho, they need to deal with it.

Fair is fair tho ... instead of going on a rant about him, I'll just patiently wait for him to pass by.

Too Tough To Die · 24-01-2014 2:50pm

Nadal is the GOAT. Absolutely decimated the previous GOAT in h2h encounters and will go on to break his GS record in what is the strongest era of that sport. Like or loathe the man or his style you cannot deny that he is the greatest player of all time.

walshb · 24-01-2014 2:55pm

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Nadal is the GOAT. Absolutely decimated the previous GOAT in h2h encounters and will go on to break his GS record in what is the strongest era of that sport. Like or loathe the man or his style you cannot deny that he is the greatest player of all time.

He definitely deserves to be considered as the GOAT. In history on their absolute best days I would only give Roger/Novak and Sampras a real chance of beating him. Nadal at his best vs. these guys at their best it's 50-50.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 3:12pm

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Nadal is the GOAT. Absolutely decimated the previous GOAT in h2h encounters and will go on to break his GS record in what is the strongest era of that sport. Like or loathe the man or his style you cannot deny that he is the greatest player of all time.

Technically he is miles behind nearly every other player in at least the top 20. His serve, his volleying, his changeup are all technically deficient. His forehand and backhand are only good insofar as they are strong and have tons of racquet technology-inspired top spin. He is a one-dimensional grinder that out-endures his opponents through attrition tennis. The fact that that this tactic is successful is down to the fact that every court has been slowed down hugely in the last 15 years. Put Nadal in any other era in tennis history and he's a top 30 player at most.
When any other sport has such an ugly style of play dominating it they do something to change it (Backpass rule in football, various rules in Rugby). Tennis does nothing though. Joke of a sport at this stage.

Up Seven · 24-01-2014 3:18pm

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Nadal is the GOAT. Absolutely decimated the previous GOAT in h2h encounters and will go on to break his GS record in what is the strongest era of that sport. Like or loathe the man or his style you cannot deny that he is the greatest player of all time.

His weeks at number one is only 119. He'll need to get at least 200 weeks imo and win at least 1 or 2 WTFs.

Federer has been number one for 302 weeks and won 6 WTFs.

24-01-2014 3:19pm

I'm up for Wawrinka in the final. He's up against it though obviously with a 0-12 head-to-head record up to now!

mickmackey1 · 24-01-2014 3:28pm

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Nadal is the GOAT. Absolutely decimated the previous GOAT in h2h encounters and will go on to break his GS record in what is the strongest era of that sport. Like or loathe the man or his style you cannot deny that he is the greatest player of all time.

Rubbish, Laver is the GOAT. Two calendar Grand Slams and most of his career he didn't even play in the majors!

24-01-2014 3:35pm

glasso wrote: »

I'm up for Wawrinka in the final. He's up against it though obviously with a 0-12 head-to-head record up to now!

in fact Wawrinka has never won a single set against Nadal...

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=W367

although 2 sets both went to tie-breaks in the most recent match. (ATP finals, on hard court in London)

cathalobrien · 24-01-2014 3:43pm

Go RAFA!!!!

MisterAnarchy · 24-01-2014 4:02pm

walshb wrote: »

He definitely deserves to be considered as the GOAT. In history on their absolute best days I would only give Roger/Novak and Sampras a real chance of beating him. Nadal at his best vs. these guys at their best it's 50-50.

If prime Sampras played Nadal at any of the majors bar the French Open on late nineties court speeds and rackets he'd easily beat him .He'd absolutely destroy him on grass .

Nadal played very well today ,best performance of the tournament by far ,he really upped his game for Federer.

Federer played better than previous encounters and looked more comfortable on his own serve however his return of serve was poor ,he should be breaking Nadals average serve more than once .

yerwanthere123 · 24-01-2014 4:23pm

*sigh*
Is there any point getting out of bed to watch the final on Sunday?

walshb · 24-01-2014 4:47pm

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

If prime Sampras played Nadal at any of the majors bar the French Open on late nineties court speeds and rackets he'd easily beat him .He'd absolutely destroy him on grass .

Nadal played very well today ,best performance of the tournament by far ,he really upped his game for Federer.

Federer played better than previous encounters and looked more comfortable on his own serve however his return of serve was poor ,he should be breaking Nadals average serve more than once .

FO Nadal whups Sampras. Hard and Grass I would favor Pete, but no way it's easy. Nadal would run him ultra close. He's a different breed of athlete. As athletic and agile and quick as Pete was, I believe some players today are faster and stronger and fitter. The game has really evolved in the past 10-15 years. Nadal's court coverage and fitness and speed would be very dangerous against the best hard court Sampras. Nadal always makes you play the extra shot(s).

walshb · 24-01-2014 4:49pm

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Rubbish, Laver is the GOAT. Two calendar Grand Slams and most of his career he didn't even play in the majors!

Good point, but against each other he barely wins a game against the best today! The game has so so improved.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 4:53pm

walshb wrote: »

FO Nadal whups Sampras. Hard and Grass I would favor Pete, but no way it's easy. Nadal would run him ultra close. He's a different breed of athlete. As athletic and agile and quick as Pete was, I believe some players today are faster and stronger and fitter. The game has really evolved in the past 10-15 years. Nadal's court coverage and fitness and speed would be very dangerous against the best hard court Sampras. Nadal always makes you play the extra shot(s).

Nadal could run all he wants. The ball would be long gone. That's the whole point. Today the balls are bigger, heavier and fluffier. They travel through the air slower. And the courts are slower too. Without that, the serves and forehands would be flying past Nadal before he even started moving for them. Doesn't matter how fast he is.

walshb · 24-01-2014 4:56pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Nadal could run all he wants. The ball would be long gone. That's the whole point. Today the balls are bigger, heavier and fluffier. They travel through the air slower. And the courts are slower too. Without that, the serves and forehands would be flying past Nadal before he even started moving for them. Doesn't matter how fast he is.

But Nadal's shots could also be faster and stronger. You make out that the balls and court speeds are just favouring Pete.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 4:59pm

walshb wrote: »

But Nadal's shots could also be faster and stronger. You make out that the balls and court speeds are just favouring Pete.

They favour the person hitting flat serves and forehands. Nadal's never hit a truly flat shot in his life.

Pighead · 24-01-2014 5:02pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Nadal could run all he wants. The ball would be long gone. That's the whole point. Today the balls are bigger, heavier and fluffier. They travel through the air slower. And the courts are slower too. Without that, the serves and forehands would be flying past Nadal before he even started moving for them. Doesn't matter how fast he is.

Disagree. You seem obsessed with the fact that the courts are slower. They may have slowed slightly (is there any official data out there to compare actually?) but the game hasn't changed a whole lot since the 90's when Andre Agassi had a decent head to head record against Sampras.

Agassi was an amazing player but I think most agree that Nadal will go down in history as being better than him. Therefore it's probably fair to say that Nadal could very well have had the upper hand against Sampras.

walshb · 24-01-2014 5:03pm

I'll go with on their absolute best day:

Federer
Nadal
Sampras
Novak
Agassi
Becker
Kraijchek
Murray
Hewitt
Rafter

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 5:04pm

Pighead wrote: »

Disagree. You seem obsessed with the fact that the courts are slower. They may have slowed slightly (is there any official data out there to compare actually?) but the game hasn't changed a whole lot since the 90's when Andre Agassi had a decent head to head record against Sampras.

Oh dear god. Sorry, but I have to assume you don't actually watch this sport. This isn't a conspiracy theory. You do know they openly admit to slowing them down...

walshb · 24-01-2014 5:06pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Oh dear god. Sorry, but I have to assume you don't actually watch this sport. This isn't a conspiracy theory. You do know they openly admit to slowing them down...

I don't think he is disputing this. You seem to making it out as a bigger issue than it probably is.

Mousewar · 24-01-2014 5:09pm

He just said the game hasn't changed a whole lot since the 90's which, I'm sorry but is borderline moronic.
Tell that to Nicholas Mahut who served his apprenticeship as a serve volleyer only to find the sport utterly changed once he became professional. Poor guy couldn't even have a proper career because his style of play was utterly eradicated almost over night on the back of complaints from casual TV fans who didn't like short points and Spanish players threatening to boycott Wimbledon.

Australian Open 2014

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