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The Running Master
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On the marathon section, his Base Period Plan and Pre-Competitive Period are ok, except for the lack of long runs.
Long runs in the final 8 weeks:
1 run of 18-20 miles and that’s at easy pace!
1 16 miler progression from easy to just faster than mp.
Pace extension sessions in final 8 weeks:
5x1.5 miles @ mp - even as an 'early' session in the specific period this is boy scout stuff.
5x2 miles @ mp – about as much good as a chocolate fire guard
That was what I thought when I looked at the schedule - there are NO LONG RUNS! I thought the paragraphs explaining the theory behind the training were OK, but once I got to the workout calendar, I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.
5 x 1.5 @ MP, 5 x 2 @ MP... Why not just do 8-10 @ MP? If you can't do that, you're already toast
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That was what I thought when I looked at the schedule - there are NO LONG RUNS! I thought the paragraphs explaining the theory behind the training were OK, but once I got to the workout calendar, I wouldn't recommend that to anyone.
5 x 1.5 @ MP, 5 x 2 @ MP... Why not just do 8-10 @ MP? If you can't do that, you're already toast
It's bizarre. I've checked it many times to make sure I'm not missing something - if I am then I'm sorry Steveo. There are many problems with the book and as dna_leri has highlighted, the proof reading or lack of, is very annoying. I can't understand how he could have got it so wrong. He will have lost all credibility in the circles he's trying to influence. Hopefully, papa Canova will put his arm around him and make it all better.0 -
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BeepBeep67 wrote: »Which shelf will it be on?
It's sitting on my bookshelf next to Steveo's. I'm sure I heard it whisper to The Road,'Does Stazza plonk all the crappy books on this shelf?'
The Road just gave it the old,
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And then later - after the spring marathons and in timing with Jake's preparation - I'll explain the whole thing.
But just think about this, what is it that you are trying to do when you are training for a marathon? Are you trying to run 12-16 miles @ PMP - the race doesn't start until the 20 mile mark. And what happens when most of you get to 20-22 miles? The wheels come off. Why? Would you make your main 10k training session 6k @10pace? No. Think about it. I'll be back... I NEED SOME ENERGY.
Everyone's head just exploded! 0 -
overpronator wrote: »I'm a big Cormac McCarthy fan, check out Child of God if you haven't already. It's a book that will make a mark on you, chilling stuff.
Yeah, it's dark all right. The only stuff of McCarthy's I haven't read are the two plays, The Stonemason and The Sunset Limited, and the two screenplays, The Gardener's Son and The Counselor.
First person to run a sub 2hr marathon or to have written The Road? Easy, The Road.
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Yeah, it's dark all right. The only stuff of McCarthy's I haven't read are the two plays, The Stonemason and The Sunset Limited, and the two screenplays, The Gardener's Son and The Counselor.
First person to run a sub 2hr marathon or to have written The Road? Easy, The Road.
I'm calling bull$hit on this. First person to run under 2hrs for marathon will be remembered once men can breathe and eyes can see. Theirs will be an eternal Summer.
The Road, sheeesh. (Note: I haven't read it)0 -
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I have a few ideas around marathon plans but not much beyond the basics for a 10k. Specific pace only in the last 3 weeks allied to 6k @ 10k pace does bring Lydiard's time trials to mind but I have noticed that McMillan and others do tend to prescribe pace sessions that develop over several weeks ( 6*1k moving into 3*2k over the course of 6 weeks or so). Given your (and Jake's chocolate teapot) comments about Magness's marathon plans in his book I can't imagine that finding favour with you though. That said I'm struggling a little to compare the relevance of 6k@10k pace to 15 miles @ marathon pace. The former is a horrible crossover between a VO2 max session and a lactate threshold session. The kind of run that's good only when close to peaking. The latter - wait a second - for an elite or sub-elite it's equally horrible. Have you erected a little bit of a straw man though? Most plans I've read would progress the volume of marathon pace running possibly starting with as little as 6 to 8.
The energy comment seems to be hinting at energy systems. Are you pointing out that PMP as opposed to PME (effort) runs get too close to threshold sessions when you're still a couple of months out from your goal race so they're trainig the wrong energy systems or at least not hitting them at the right point so you're getting too much mish-mash and not enough specificity? A possible tie in to the body's ability to burn fat during a marathon or is that a leap too far?
Is your basic insight that you should train the body to run as efficiently as possible for the amount of time that is your goal to run the race in?
To get a little insight into what's driving my questions read below:
Mostly I'm looking for ideas for a friend that I fell into coaching because he was getting bad advice and I let him know what I thought he should do. Fast forward a year and there's still a little mileage in my basic idea (run more/don't do short intervals all that often) but his conversions from short to long have tightened up and I'm thinking that he probably needs to get his times for shorter distances down to fully realise his potential. I've convinced him to skip an autumn marathon in favour of a focus on short stuff and then doing London again next year. I had him do 9 weeks of Daniels' 5-15k plan since the end of last year which gave him a reasonable improvement over 10k (although he didn't see it because the race he ran coincided with 40mph winds!). Now he has moved into a marathon specific phase which I'm a little frustrated with because it's basically reprising what he did for Berlin last year with some slightly faster paces but his background is different this time so I'm slightly worried about how it'll turn out. In any case I've spent a year getting to understand how he responds to different types of training and I've got him looking at the big picture but I feel like I'm a little short of the tools to bring him to reach his full potential.
Your comment about marathon pace particularly piqued my interest because my friends plan has quite a bit of marathon paced running in it and he found the first one hard. My advice was to focus on the effort and not worry about the pace because the benefit of marathon pace effort running to him will be to help bring back his endurance of which he will have lost a little during the last 2 months of Daniels. Your throwaway comment has me second guessing myself.
If I can find the time tomorrow, I’ll try and explain why I believe you shouldn’t train at marathon pace until the final three weeks. But in a nutshell it’s about preparing the body to burn fuel efficiently at MP. Ironically, the best way to do this isn’t by training the body at MP – I’ll explain the reasons for this another time; it’s best achieved by working either side of MP.
The long runs start @ 80% of MP and, depending on the experience and ability of the runner, progress towards 95%-97% of MP – this allows both the metabolic and biomechanical structures to develop together. So that by the time you hit the Specific Phase (8 -9 weeks out) every other long run has large segments @ this pace – the segments progress in distance each time.
At the same time the other end of the spectrum starts at roughly 110% of MP and works down in pace to 103% but the distance of the reps and volume of the session are extended. So, by the time you hit the Specific Phase you are starting off with something like 8x2k @103/104% of MP off 1km rec @ 80% of MP. These sessions are done every other week and musn’t clash with the 97% long run. They develop into something like 4x6k/5x5k @ 103/104% of MP off 1k @80% of MP.
Here’s the first draft of a schedule that one of my boys did (he was a 2:12 guy and could cope with a higher work load etc):
Weekly speed workout
16x400m 110% of pmp 200 jog rec (8min mile pace for all jog recoveries)
20x400m
14x800m 107% of pmp 400m jog rec
16x800m
16x1000m 105 % of pmp 500m jog rec
12x1200m 104% of pmp 600m jog rec
10x1600m 103 % of pmp 800m jog rec
Specific
8x2k 103% of pmp 1k rec 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace
6x3k as above
5x4k as above
4x5k as above
a.m. 2m. w/u 5m. @ pmp +2% 2m. w/d - p.m. 2m. w/u 10m. @ 102% of pmp* 2m w/d.
Supercompensation Week
4x6k 102 % of pmp off 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace
a.m 2m w/u 7m @ pmp 2m w/d. – p.m. 2m. w/u 10m @ 102% of pmp* 2m w/d.
3x8k 102 % of pmp off 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace
Weekly long run
2hrs 15 mins @ 80% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins @ 80% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1 hr @ 80% of pmp, 75 mins @90% of pmp, last 15 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 1hr @90% of pmp, last 30 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 45 mins @90% of pmp, last 45 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 30 mins @90% of pmp, last hr @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 30 mins @90% of pmp, 45 mins @ 95% of pmp, 15 mins @pmp.
Specific
20 miles with 14 miles @ 95% of pmp
20 miles with 14 miles @ 97% of pmp
20 miles with 16 miles @ 97% of pmp
18 miles @ 95% of pmp
22 miles with 18 miles @ 97% of pmp
24 miles with 20 miles @ 95% of pmp
24 miles with 20 @ 97% of pmp
22 miles @ 95% of pmp.
In between these sessions do a weekly hill session alternating between - 8x8 sec hill blasts with a good 2min walk rec and 10x100m sprints at about 95% of all out effort with a walk back recovery. All other miles should be run at a very slow pace – they are recovery runs. You shouldn’t run further than 8 miles/1hr on any of these runs. You get diminishing returns running longer than an hour on rec runs and you increase the chances of getting injured. Doubles on recovery days (8+8). Shakeout after the speed days.
Note - This was not the final schedule. And it's important to note that the final schedule was amended as we went along. Also,you'll note that there were no Lactate Shunt sessions and nor were there any in the final schedule - when I devised this schedule I wasn't conversant with employing LS sessions in marathon training.
I'll also draw your attention to two more points:
1. The original schedules wouldn't have been written in terms of pace as a % of MP - I've changed this from the actual target paces to percentages so that you'll get the idea.
2. This is a Canovaesque template - a starting point. The final product looked nothing like the above. Like I've stated before, the basic principles underpin the training but the final schedule is always individualised and takes into consideration the runner's strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
When I get the time, I'll post schedules I've used for guys and gals who've run between 2:20 and 3:30. - with explanations...0
This discussion has been closed.
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