The Running Master

Stazza

Saturday 1st March

a.m. 8 miles ez. For the first half of the run the legs were heavy enough. Much to the chagrin of the old lady I took my time and plodded around – she wanted to get out for her run because she reckoned she had a busy day; didn’t look like she did much to me – a bit of shopping.

p.m. 6 miles ez. Legs felt a bit better. A little bit of lard loss over the last couple of days so I kept it handy enough. The two runs planned for tomorrow are the same as today. I was thinking about introducing a starter session of hill blasts (alactic 8 sec reps) but have decided to wait another week because of introducing the aerobic strides.

AIS before and after both runs.

(14)

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

Saturday 1st March

a.m. 8 miles ez. For the first half of the run the legs were heavy enough. Much to the chagrin of the old lady I took my time and plodded around – she wanted to get out for her run because she reckoned she had a busy day; didn’t look like she did much to me – a bit of shopping.

p.m. 6 miles ez. Legs felt a bit better. A little bit of lard loss over the last couple of days so I kept it handy enough. The two runs planned for tomorrow are the same as today. I was thinking about introducing a starter session of hill blasts (alactic 8 sec reps) but have decided to wait another week because of introducing the aerobic strides.

AIS before and after both runs.

(14)

Jesus Stazza, for one apparently so wise, to come between a lady and a planned shopping expedition, well that's just plain dumb!

Back to business, I'm really interested in your thoughts around LR's and MP. Given my fail in Seville, I had thought to try and get a LR in with up to 16/17 miles at my PMP. If you have the time, what would be your thoughts on my LR's from here up to 4th May (limerick marathon, my probable next target)

Tnx

TbL

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

If I can find the time tomorrow, I’ll try and explain why I believe you shouldn’t train at marathon pace until the final three weeks. But in a nutshell it’s about preparing the body to burn fuel efficiently at MP. Ironically, the best way to do this isn’t by training the body at MP – I’ll explain the reasons for this another time; it’s best achieved by working either side of MP.

The long runs start @ 80% of MP and, depending on the experience and ability of the runner, progress towards 95%-97% of MP – this allows both the metabolic and biomechanical structures to develop together. So that by the time you hit the Specific Phase (8 -9 weeks out) every other long run has large segments @ this pace – the segments progress in distance each time.

At the same time the other end of the spectrum starts at roughly 110% of MP and works down in pace to 103% but the distance of the reps and volume of the session are extended. So, by the time you hit the Specific Phase you are starting off with something like 8x2k @103/104% of MP off 1km rec @ 80% of MP. These sessions are done every other week and musn’t clash with the 97% long run. They develop into something like 4x6k/5x5k @ 103/104% of MP off 1k @80% of MP.

Here’s the first draft of a schedule that one of my boys did (he was a 2:12 guy and could cope with a higher work load etc):

Weekly speed workout
16x400m 110% of pmp 200 jog rec (8min mile pace for all jog recoveries)
20x400m
14x800m 107% of pmp 400m jog rec
16x800m
16x1000m 105 % of pmp 500m jog rec
12x1200m 104% of pmp 600m jog rec
10x1600m 103 % of pmp 800m jog rec

Specific
8x2k 103% of pmp 1k rec 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace
6x3k as above
5x4k as above
4x5k as above
a.m. 2m. w/u 5m. @ pmp +2% 2m. w/d - p.m. 2m. w/u 10m. @ 102% of pmp* 2m w/d.
Supercompensation Week
4x6k 102 % of pmp off 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace
a.m 2m w/u 7m @ pmp 2m w/d. – p.m. 2m. w/u 10m @ 102% of pmp* 2m w/d.
3x8k 102 % of pmp off 800m rec @ 45 secs slower per mile pace

Weekly long run
2hrs 15 mins @ 80% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins @ 80% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1 hr @ 80% of pmp, 75 mins @90% of pmp, last 15 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 1hr @90% of pmp, last 30 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 45 mins @90% of pmp, last 45 mins @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 30 mins @90% of pmp, last hr @ 95% of pmp.
2hrs 30 mins 1hr @ 80% of pmp, 30 mins @90% of pmp, 45 mins @ 95% of pmp, 15 mins @pmp.

Specific
20 miles with 14 miles @ 95% of pmp
20 miles with 14 miles @ 97% of pmp
20 miles with 16 miles @ 97% of pmp
18 miles @ 95% of pmp
22 miles with 18 miles @ 97% of pmp
24 miles with 20 miles @ 95% of pmp
24 miles with 20 @ 97% of pmp
22 miles @ 95% of pmp.

In between these sessions do a weekly hill session alternating between - 8x8 sec hill blasts with a good 2min walk rec and 10x100m sprints at about 95% of all out effort with a walk back recovery. All other miles should be run at a very slow pace – they are recovery runs. You shouldn’t run further than 8 miles/1hr on any of these runs. You get diminishing returns running longer than an hour on rec runs and you increase the chances of getting injured. Doubles on recovery days (8+8). Shakeout after the speed days.


Note - This was not the final schedule. And it's important to note that the final schedule was amended as we went along. Also,you'll note that there were no Lactate Shunt sessions and nor were there any in the final schedule - when I devised this schedule I wasn't conversant with employing LS sessions in marathon training.

I'll also draw your attention to two more points:
1. The original schedules wouldn't have been written in terms of pace as a % of MP - I've changed this from the actual target paces to percentages so that you'll get the idea.
2. This is a Canovaesque template - a starting point. The final product looked nothing like the above. Like I've stated before, the basic principles underpin the training but the final schedule is always individualised and takes into consideration the runner's strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.

When I get the time, I'll post schedules I've used for guys and gals who've run between 2:20 and 3:30. - with explanations...

Would be great to see the other schedules at some stage.

The progression from 400's up to 1600 for the weekly speed is interesting. That side of the funnel was missing from my last marathon prep, and obviously a runner may even need to work on 5-10k race pace so that Potential MP is as low as possible. For a runner with a preceding 5k phase the progression of the size of the workbouts of the speed session could start at 800's or Kilometers and extend?

I realise this is a first draft but just to make a few observations:

This is an elite marathoner, but even so i imagine the weekly 2:30 run in the pre-specific phase might have been too much, and the progression is too gradual. These runs are ranging from 24-27 miles and might be better spaced bi weekly or even further apart.
Also i think as duration runs, these runs might be better based on Predicted Race time of 2:10. If he need more work on the resistance side: the 2:30 duration could be funneled down to 2:10 as the speed increased.

This would progress specifity of duration as speed increases but also allow room in the schedule for some kind of bi-weekly LT maintenance or AT type work: (90 minute progression runs 90% PMP to 100% PMP; 60 mins Progression runs from 95% to 105%, hilly prgression runs etc.) These might compliment and help the long resistance run nicely.

Last thing is the lenght of the Specific period. If the specific long run and specific endurance workout are every other week, it means the specific period is up on 18 weeks. Long even by elite standards.

With me in the 2:30-40 range the long fast duration run would have to be every 3 weeks as i couldn't handle more. Id probably have to add a session starting @ say 20k @ 95% of PMP and working up. Again every 3 weeks.

Anyway interested to see your thoughts on the above points and if they had any bearing on his final schedule. I should be running! Out I go!

BeepBeep67

Would be interested to hear at some stage how you approach the taper stage with your athletes.
How long, percentage of peak mileage, depletion stage, loading stage, etc?

KielyUnusual

This might be a silly question but from a practical point of view, how do you go about calculating percentage of pace? I would understand if a higher percentage of pace meant a slower pace and it would be easy to calculate i.e.

110% of 7 min/mile pace

7 min = 420s = 100%

1% = 4.2s

110% = 462s = 7m42s/mile pace

You could convert the pace in to a speed and say 7min/mile pace = 8.6 mi/hr and then 110% of that is 9.46mi/hr or 6m21s/mile. I assume this is the pace that you're talking about when you say 110% of 7 min/mile pace?

BeepBeep67

KielyUnusual wrote: »

This might be a silly question but from a practical point of view, how do you go about calculating percentage of pace? I would understand if a higher percentage of pace meant a slower pace and it would be easy to calculate i.e.

110% of 7 min/mile pace

7 min = 420s = 100%

1% = 4.2s

110% = 462s = 7m42s/mile pace

You could convert the pace in to a speed and say 7min/mile pace = 8.6 mi/hr and then 110% of that is 9.46mi/hr or 6m21s/mile. I assume this is the pace that you're talking about when you say 110% of 7 min/mile pace?

I use speed for working this out, or you could say 7min/mile = 420sec/mile, 10%= 42sec, 10% faster = 6:18 pace, so marginally faster than the speed calc method.

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Jesus Stazza, for one apparently so wise, to come between a lady and a planned shopping expedition, well that's just plain dumb!

Back to business, I'm really interested in your thoughts around LR's and MP. Given my fail in Seville, I had thought to try and get a LR in with up to 16/17 miles at my PMP. If you have the time, what would be your thoughts on my LR's from here up to 4th May (limerick marathon, my probable next target)

Tnx

TbL

I'll have a look and get back to you. But for now, I wouldn't worry: I'd treat what you did up until Seville as a bit of background training that could pave they way for a different approach that should lead to some decent improvement. Just give me a bit of time and I'll let you know what I think. If you were to post your pb's and the key sessions in your Seville build up , that would save me from ploughing through your log and then I could get back to you pretty quickly:)

Stazza

T - here's my first set of answers. Please don't respond: I'll get the others up and then start all over so there's more structure to the discussion etc. Don't want to get pulled all over the place regarding the schedule posted earlier as this didn't turn out anything like what was used. I will, however, answer your questions regarding that schedule and I agree with most - not all of what you had to say. But give me some time and I'll get there:)

So, for starters:

Would be great to see the other schedules at some stage.

It’s just a matter of time T – most of my schedules and notes are in paper form so I have to type them up – this includes Jake’s recent schedules. I always start off with pencil and paper. But yeah, I’ll pop up the schedules.

The progression from 400's up to 1600 for the weekly speed is interesting. That side of the funnel was missing from my last marathon prep, and obviously a runner may even need to work on 5-10k race pace so that Potential MP is as low as possible. For a runner with a preceding 5k phase the progression of the size of the workbouts of the speed session could start at 800's or Kilometers and extend?

Absolutely. In fact, the way I’d suggest a person approaches the marathon is 1 marathon (race) a year. Broken into 4 components:

1. Base of some sort to get back into training after a two-three week complete break. This period, depending on the runner, would probably be about 3 months. Details of this will follow in the days/weeks ahead.

2. The base would transition into a specific 5k – 10k block that would last about 3 months.

3. The next 4 month(ish) block is where it gets messy: This is where so much depends on the runner’s strengths and weaknesses. But my approach would be to spend 4 months working on specifically improving speed at LT and slowly developing endurance and then progressively closing in from 80% of PMP to 95%-97% of PMP – much like the cited example.

How you approach developing LT is where the skill comes in: you can’t use a one glove fits all Canova approach – amongst other things, it depends where the runner fits in on the fibre spectrum. Canova, in his idea of the Foundation Period, suggests a progressive style of developing LT which is more suited to an improving, top end, slow twitch type of runner – not everybody fits into this category. Of course, Canova is well aware of this and there’s a lot more to his approach than what’s in his pamphlet and on Letsrun and other sites. For his top runners, the schedules are specifically designed and the 100-200 runners that tag along are merely fodder.

An example of what I mean here is that I’m more at the FT end of the spectrum and Jake’s more at the ST end of the spectrum. I wouldn’t develop my LT the same way as Jake would. A good way to explain this might be to take Canova’s example of developing Aerobic Capacity to influence LT as shown in his idea of the Foundation Period:

Jake’s a predominantly slow twitch fibre runner with a decent aerobic base – possibly, he could cope with the workload. But would he benefit? I doubt it very much. Yeah, he’d get strong and fit but he wouldn’t improve his LT because he’s ‘currently’ maxed out on what he can achieve given his various Thresholds. If he were to follow Canova’s cited Foundation Period he wouldn’t run much faster as his LT wouldn’t really improve. And yet, if I can trigger an improvement in his LT then Canova’s approach would most likely work on a slow twitch runner like Jake. But then if we look at yours truly (the dashingly handsome Stazza) and let’s say I could cope with the workload, which I couldn’t. Canova’s approach would be disastrous for me. I would need to start where he finishes and progress in the opposite direction. This is just one reason why you can’t copy and paste a simple methodology and follow it.


That said, all runners still have to complete 26.2 miles and therefore need to work on some basics. But basically, the week breaks down into two simple sessions. A long run, which works on duration and gradually increases in intensity (it’s imperative that you don’t rush this element –you’ll end up injured/drained and stale as the weeks move on). And then some form of session to provoke a stimulus in developing pace at LT – this is where the funnel is at its widest point. I’d also recommend that the hill reps come in at this point – these are not a difficult session: they’re enjoyable, break up the routine, work a different energy system (mainly CP) and they are efficacious when it comes to encouraging the body recruit certain motor units.


4. The specific phase: for me, this is 8-9 weeks with a two week taper. Here, again, things have to be kept very simple. One long run and one midweek workout. The long runs – depends entirely on ability and experience. Somebody looking to go 2:45 -2:50 off a previous best of 3:10-3:15: long runs should alternate between 18-24 miles @ 80% of PMP and 20-22 milers where there are progressive segments at 95%-97% of PMP; the final run includes 18 miles @ 97% of PMP with the final 4 miles of the 18 mile segment gradually increasing to 104% - this is eminently doable if everything is managed correctly. This will ensure - all things being equal - on marathon day that the runner will finish with authority* (that’s Jake’s phrase).

The midweek workout is split into three different types. The first type is the gristle building 17 milers over hills with work thrown in. But these are only employed once or twice in the early specific phase – after this, use them at your peril: you’ll crack-up! These are used between the pace extension sessions of 8x2k and 6x3k – remember we’re talking about somebody in the 3:10-3:15 area looking to go 2:45-2:50.

The next type of session is where the distance equals about 17/18 miles with 13-15 miles of workout incl rec km’s. The session is a progressive extension of pace. This is the 8x2k @ 103% of PMP (roughly 10 secs faster than PMP) off 1k @ 80% of PMP which build to something like 4x5k @103% of PMP off 1km @80% of PMP. (Remember, this is for somebody aiming for 2:45-2:50.)

The final type of workout is the Lactate Shunt session – 1-2 of them in the final 3 weeks, depending on many factors. These sessions, again, depending on experience and ability, are about 10km in total volume (2:45 guy) and might go something like this: 800m @ HMP followed by 800m @ 102% of MP x 5/6 progressing the following week to 1km @ HMP followed by 1Km @ MP* x5. * First time we see MP!!!!

So it would look something like this:

Workouts

1. 8x2k @ 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 80% of PMP

2. 17 miles including – 10x60 secs @ roughly 10k effort with 60 secs jog rec between efforts - 10 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort with 5 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort.

3. 6x3k - 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 80% of PMP.

4. 17 miles including – 5x2 mins @ roughly 10k effort with 2 mins jog rec between efforts - 10 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort with 5 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort.

5. No workout- super compensation week

6. 5x4k - 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 80% of PMP.

7. 4x5k - 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 80% of PMP.

8. 10 miles incl (1km @ hmp; 1km @ pmp) x 5/6

Long runs

1. 22. miles with 6 miles @ 97% of PMP
2. 22-24 miles @ 80% of pmp
3. 22 miles with 10 miles @ 97% of PMP
4. 22-24 miles @ 80% of pmp
5. 22-24 miles with 12-14 iles @97% of PMP.
6. 22-24 miles @ 80% of pmp
7. 22-24 miles with 14 miles @ 97% of PMP + 4 miles progressing to 104% of PMP (18 miles AVP – 98-99% of PMP)
8. 22 miles @ 80% of pmp with final 6/7 miles @ 97% of PMP and final mile faster than PMP but not flat out.

Shunt sessions slot into week 8/9 and taper.
More to follow...

Stazza

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Would be interested to hear at some stage how you approach the taper stage with your athletes.
How long, percentage of peak mileage, depletion stage, loading stage, etc?

I'll try and get there quickly as I know many are approaching that point in their training - I've noticed that lots of people on here, imo, are getting this wrong: getting sniffles and colds etc - this is from not understanding how to taper properly...

Stazza

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I use speed for working this out, or you could say 7min/mile = 420sec/mile, 10%= 42sec, 10% faster = 6:18 pace, so marginally faster than the speed calc method.

This is how I work out the paces/percentages. It's not too important to get it exactly bang on - so long as you're there or there abouts. Remember, you'll have to contend with the wind and rain and hills etc. But if you can get in and around the right percentages you'll be ok.

Stazza

Sunday 2nd March

a.m. 8 miles ez. Everything felt good.

p.m. 3 miles shakeout.

AIS before and after both runs.

(11)

Summary of the week.

94 miles
13 runs
13 miler with 9 @ AT
6 mile progression run
3x(6x20 secs @ 3k pace off jog back rec) 400m jog between sets.

Felt great for most of the week. The workload isn’t too taxing, so that’s a good sign. Looking forward to this week…

Stazza

Paddy the Kenyan has only been running for just over two years. He trains 6-7 days a week in singles – no doubles. He ‘s done two marathons: 3:22 and 3:10. Prior to starting the schedule I posted above, he did 10 weeks of 80 miles a week aerobic work – no speed work. Twice a week he did 8-9 miles @ AT and he gradually increased his weekly long run from 1:45 mins to 2hr 30 mins @ 80% of PMP. He wants to break 3hrs. He was going to do some Lydiard stuff – I convinced him to follow The Stazza – Lydiard’s old hat. Then, on the 1st January he started training the Stazza Way. Here’s a little sniffter of how the above schedule translates into reality, warts and all:

The emails with the details ~
Wednesday 1st January.

Happy New Year!

Session 1: 8x2k @ 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 45 secs slower per mile - eg if rep pace is 6:20, rec pace is 7:05


Split Hours:Minutes:Seconds Distance Avg Pace (Miles)
Summary 1:53:30.5 17.29 miles 6:34
1 Warm-up: 9:06.0 1.14 miles 7:58
2 7:42.6 2k 6:13
3 4:12.9 1k 6:48
4 7:36.5 2k 6:08
5 4:11.2 1k 6:45
6 7:34.6 2k 6:07
7 4:07.5 1k 6:40
8 7:41.6 2k 6:12
9 4:14.7 1k 6:51
10 7:41.2 2k 6:12
11 4:11.9 1k 6:47
12 7:28.3 2k 6:02
13 4:10.6 1k 6:44
14 7:39.2 2k 6:10
15 4:12.2 1k 6:47
16 7:39.2 2k 6:10
17 4:15.6 1k 6:53
18 Cool-down: 9:44.9 1.28 miles
7:37

A really great session. I was provisionally aiming for around 6:15 pace on the reps and ended up averaging about 6:10 (I think)—the calm weather helped a lot.

I felt reasonably controlled throughout and didn't come close to bonking; the tiredness only hit me on the cool-down mile and even that passed once I'd reached home. It'll be interesting to see what state I'm in tomorrow morning.

Most of the recs were a bit too quick, but I can work on getting that right next week.

Sunday 5th January



Long runs
1. 2hrs 30 mins -60 mins @ 80% of pmp, 70 mins @90% of pmp, last 20 mins @ 97% of pmp.

Split Time Distance Avg Pace
Summary 2:30:00.9 21.07 7:07
1 7:20.5 1.00 7:20
2 7:18.5 1.00 7:18
3 7:12.6 1.00 7:13
4 7:13.8 1.00 7:14
5 7:26.7 1.00 7:27
6 7:26.4 1.00 7:26
7 7:16.7 1.00 7:17
8 7:40.6 1.00 7:41
9 6:45.5 1.00 6:46
10 6:55.7 1.00 6:56
11 6:39.4 1.00 6:39
12 6:58.4 1.00 6:58
13 6:47.8 1.00 6:48
14 6:43.4 1.00 6:43
15 6:52.9 1.00 6:53
16 6:39.9 1.00 6:40
17 6:47.2 1.00 6:47
18 7:04.4 1.00 7:04
19 6:39.4 1.00 6:39
20 7:03.6 1.00 7:04
21 8:11.8 1.00 8:12
22 :56.2 0.07 13:29


Today was definitely a tough day to attempt a progressive long run!

The targets were: first hour @ 7:32; next 70 minutes @ 6:55; last 20 minutes @ 6:28.

So, it's mission (over) accomplished on the first two and a total disaster on the third.

I felt quite tired after the Wednesday run—and my hips were slightly sore from all the pounding—so I took it easy on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, running 8, 9 and 8 miles respectively, @ around 8:00 pace.

I overslept last night and didn't make it out until 10:30. In hindsight, I probably started off a bit fast, but it all seemed very easy and the slight tailwind on the road to Ardfert no doubt helped.

From Ardfert to Fenit there was a serious headwind at least 85% of the time, which really takes its toll after a while—it must have been worth 20-30 seconds per mile at its worst and also gave me a distinctive, Einstein-esque hairstyle. I had to work very hard just to maintain a 6:55 pace on the penultimate hill. Weather conditions make such a difference on the Tralee course; if it's like this on race day, I think there'll be a lot of people dropping out. It also makes it very difficult to pace yourself evenly.

I was able to recover somewhat on the way into the Spa, but the expected tailwind was oftentimes more a crosswind blowing me toward the traffic, which wasn't much use. I got seriously tired coming through the Kerries, and only managed about half a mile at 6:28 pace before the body gave me one of those 'That's it for today, son.' notifications. The last mile and a half were seriously attritional: I jogged home, really.

It's probably worth bearing in mind that—apart from a gel at 08:30—by the time I blew-up I hadn't eaten for 15 hours, which may have been a factor. Afterwards, I was absolutely shattered until about 16:00, but a can of Coke has woken me up.

In any case, it's still a 21 mile PB, so I can't complain too much. Onward!

Wednesday 8th January

2. 17 miles including – 10x60 secs @ roughly 10k effort with 60 secs jog rec between efforts - 10 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort with 5 mins rec @ 80% of pmp – 20 mins @ half marathon effort.

Split Time Distance Avg Pace
Summary 2:00:09.8 17.47 6:53
1 18:01.9 2.26 8:00
2 1:00.6 0.17 6:02
3 :59.5 0.12 7:58
4 :59.8 0.18 5:40
5 1:00.0 0.13 7:37
6 1:00.7 0.17 5:56
7 :59.0 0.10 9:34
8 1:00.5 0.18 5:40
9 1:00.3 0.11 8:59
10 :59.8 0.18 5:35
11 :59.6 0.11 8:42
12 1:00.4 0.19 5:23
13 :59.4 0.11 8:58
14 1:00.9 0.18 5:43
15 :59.1 0.10 9:27
16 1:00.4 0.18 5:38
17 :59.9 0.12 8:40
18 1:00.0 0.18 5:33
19 :59.9 0.10 9:51
20 1:00.5 0.17 6:02
21 :59.2 0.14 7:18
22 10:00.1 1.36 7:22
23 20:00.8 3.35 5:58
24 5:00.1 0.69 7:16
25 20:03.2 3.37 5:57
26 27:04.3 3.53 7:40


I wasn't looking forward to this one—Sunday had fairly knocked the stuffing out of me—but it ended up being reasonably straightforward. I did the strides on the road opposite the running track, then headed over to the 3k canal loop for the longer reps. The calm weather meant I could keep the effort level pretty even with the result that there's only 1 second difference in average pace between the two 20 minute laps.

The path by the canal has, as you've probably noticed, been badly damaged by the storm, which makes it a potential Achilles black spot! I'll need to be careful around there ...

At least I've got a full week to recover before the next big session.

Sunday 12th January

Update

Friday: 10 miles
Saturday: 11 miles
Sunday: 24 miles @ 7:26 pace

Weekly Total: 88 miles

Tough conditions again this morning. The wind wasn't quite as bad, but some sections of the road were badly flooded: there's only so much freezing cold, near knee-deep agricultural field 'water' you can wade through without starting to lose the will to live. If it's like that on race day they'll have to cancel the thing!

Last few miles were a bit of slog; I'd puked my guts up—reason unknown— at around 2 a.m. which must have negatively impacted my hydration, and the residual heartburn was more than a little annoying.

Are you out for an easy 6 tomorrow? If so, I'll tag along.

JUMP FORWARD – Wednesday 29th Jan

. 5x4k - 103% of pmp with 1k rec @ 45 secs slower per mile as above.


Split Time Distance Avg Pace (miles)
Summary 1:55:29.1 17.70 6:32
1 16:47.6 Warm-up: 2.19 miles 7:41
2 14:55.3 4k 6:01
3 4:07.0 1k 6:39
4 15:03.1 4k 6:04
5 4:14.3 1k 6:50
6 15:23.1 4k 6:12
7 4:16.2 1k 6:54
8 15:10.4 4k 6:07
9 4:28.6 1k 7:14
10 15:41.6 4k 6:20
11 5:15.0 Cool-down: 0.62 8:29
12 :06.8 0.01 8:06


6:09 average pace on the reps, I think.

I blew-up in the last mile and a half of the final rep: I overdid it trying to stay in front of J. D. down by the cinema and started paying the price when I reached Caherslee.

It's still a decent return to form, given the state I was in for the preceding 10 days.

See you tomorrow.

Sunday 2nd February

Update

Fri: 6.75 miles @ 7:54 pace
Sat: 5.79 miles @ 7:44 pace
Sun: 20 miles @ 6:50 pace

Split Time Distance (miles) Avg Pace
Summary 2:16:36.4 20.01 6:50
1 7:46.9 1.00 7:47
2 7:24.3 1.00 7:24
3 7:07.8 1.00 7:08
4 7:10.8 1.00 7:11
5 7:23.7 1.00 7:24
6 7:17.7 1.00 7:18
7 7:04.9 1.00 7:05
8 7:23.8 1.00 7:24
9 6:48.7 1.00 6:49
10 6:59.9 1.00 7:00
11 6:45.5 1.00 6:45
12 7:01.2 1.00 7:01
13 6:39.6 1.00 6:40
14 6:09.7 1.00 6:10
15 6:09.0 1.00 6:09
16 5:55.3 1.00 5:55
17 6:08.3 1.00 6:08
18 6:33.7 1.00 6:34
19 6:28.5 1.00 6:28
20 6:14.0 1.00 6:14
21 Partial Lap:03.3 0.01 6:08


I made an on-the-run decision to incorporate a fast finish. If God was going to reduce the wind speed for a few hours then I wasn't going to force myself to jog round at 7:30 pace today, only to be bent over double in a hurricane next Sunday morning, struggling to run 6:55s.

Although I only started moving seriously in the last eight miles, I managed a 6:29:84 average for the closing 12, which gets that session out of the way, as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't have time to eat anything beforehand.

Sunday 23rd February
Split Time Distance Avg Pace
Summary 2:14:34.0 20.01 6:43
1 8:03.4 1.00 8:03
2 7:51.5 1.00 7:52
3 6:40.1 1.00 6:40
4 6:44.0 1.00 6:44
5 6:42.3 1.00 6:42
6 6:40.2 1.00 6:40
7 6:34.8 1.00 6:35
8 7:13.7 1.00 7:14*
9 6:17.5 1.00 6:18
10 6:55.3 1.00 6:55
11 6:41.1 1.00 6:41
12 6:43.9 1.00 6:44
13 6:33.2 1.00 6:33
14 6:24.4 1.00 6:24
15 6:27.5 1.00 6:27
16 6:22.6 1.00 6:23
17 6:27.9 1.00 6:28
18 6:24.6 1.00 6:25
19 6:23.8 1.00 6:24
20 6:18.9 1.00 6:19
21 :04.0 0.01 5:00

*Barrow Hill
By my maths, the overall average pace for the 18 miles was 6:35.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Good stuff, ay? All of the long runs were done on the Tralee Marathon course, which is a pretty tough course. Also note, these sessions were done in the recent storms. Methinks he's breaking 3hrs...

Stazza

I realise this is a first draft but just to make a few observations:

This is an elite marathoner, but even so i imagine the weekly 2:30 run in the pre-specific phase might have been too much, and the progression is too gradual. These runs are ranging from 24-27 miles and might be better spaced bi weekly or even further apart.

This was pre Garmin. These were more like we’ll all meet up and go for a run (I didn’t: I wasn’t running at this time) – we’ll increase it over time to 2:30 and, if we’re feeling ok, we’ll pick up the pace. There was no accurate way of measuring these runs etc. They were off the cuff. But the runs were done without fail every weekend. I tried to translate the ideas into a Canova-type template so that it would make sense:)

Paddy the Kenyan hasn’t missed a long run since he started training for Tralee in mid October: that’s 17-24 miles every weekend without fail for 5 months.


Also i think as duration runs, these runs might be better based on Predicted Race time of 2:10. If he need more work on the resistance side: the 2:30 duration could be funneled down to 2:10 as the speed increased. This would progress specifity of duration as speed increases but allow some kind of bi-weekly LT maintenance or AT type work: (90 minute progression runs 90% PMP to 100% PMP; 60 mins Progression runs from 95% to 105%, hilly prgression runs etc.) These might compliment and help the long resistance run nicely.

Back in day when men were men, most people did a long Sunday run, a session on Tuesday, Thursday - a 10 miler tempo/13 miles of fartlek, and a race or hills on Saturday:). This guy didn’t. Even when he wasn’t marathon training he did a long run on Sundays and a midweek session, everything else was easy running and strides. His easy running was probably in and around 7-7:30 pace (can’t be sure – pre Garmin). His 5000m time was poor – low 14’s; yet his half time was fast – very fast. He was a bit like Jake in that the differential between 5k-10k-10 miles-HM was minimal. There was a huge opportunity that we missed – we didn’t have the knowledge.

In the end, after many discussions etc he ended up doing something similar to what Paddy the Kenyan did, only much cruder and faster.

In the ‘Specific Period', his reps didn’t start @ 8x2k either. He started at 4x3 miles (pinched from Al Sal) off 800m jog. He did his sessions on the track to monitor paces. The 4x3 miles built up to 3x6miles – with hindsight, too far. In the Specific Period his long runs slotted either side of the workouts and alternated like this: 22-24 miles relaxed (probably 80%-90% of MP) and 20-22 miles with faster segments (probably 97% of MP) up to 18 miles. And if I remember correctly, he did a 20 mile race at MP 4 weeks out – another mistake. We were planning for him to run in and around 2:14 but he ended up doing 2:12:XX.

Last thing is the lenght of the Specific period. If the specific long run and specific endurance workout are every other week, it means the specific period is up on 18 weeks.

If you look at the specific period again, you’ll actually see that there were only 4 runs @ 97% and 4 @ 95% - but I get where you are coming from. The schedule was more of a crude throw loads of mud at it and some will stick. The fact he ran so well was more luck and talent than design and skill. But it's fun to look back and see how things started out.

With me in the 2:30-40 range the long fasr duration run would have to be every 3 weeks as i couldn't handle more. For me id probably have to add a session starting @ say 20k @ 95% of PMP and working up. Again every 3 weeks.

I think you’ll find that if you develop the runs gradually that you’ll be able to cope with the 95%-97% of PMP increasing in distance every other weekend up to 18 miles and on the other weekend your long runs could be done at 80% and range between 20-24 miles – this is exactly what Paddy the Kenyan did.

The secret is one long run a week and one session a week. Everything else is about recovery. You’ll probably find that you’ll need a week without any session in the middle of the specific period – this allows your body to compensate for the overload and you make a breakthrough that enables you to cope with the extension of pace and a slight increase in pace too – see Paddy the Kenyan’s example.

Stazza

Monday 3rd March

a.m 8 miles ez with Paddy the Kenyan. Good old chat about the Tralee marathon and his taper. The conversation was so riveting that I forgot I was meant to leave him at 7 miles and go off and do a LT session to make this a 13 miler.

p.m. 6 miles with 15 mins at LT. Was going to do 20 mins at LT but after about 12 mins I was running into a strong headwind and realised that I’d go over the threshold, so I called it a day at about 15 mins. But felt great up to that point and a good mile of it was uphill.

AIS before and after both runs.

(14)

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Jesus Stazza, for one apparently so wise, to come between a lady and a planned shopping expedition, well that's just plain dumb!

Back to business, I'm really interested in your thoughts around LR's and MP. Given my fail in Seville, I had thought to try and get a LR in with up to 16/17 miles at my PMP. If you have the time, what would be your thoughts on my LR's from here up to 4th May (limerick marathon, my probable next target)

Tnx

TbL

Right then, the way I see it: you’ve got 6 weeks training starting from this weekend and a two week taper. You’ve done a good build up in terms of speed (mile reps and 5kish stuff etc; you’ve also got a good amount of long runs under your belt with some MP miles).

Here’s what I’d do:

Wk 1
1. Long run: 20-22 miles with 10 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
2. 8x2k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km @ 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 2
3. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
4. 15 miles with 2x15 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 3
5. Long run: 20-22 miles with 14 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
6. 7x3k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 4
7. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
8. 15 miles with 2x20 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 5
9. Long run: 20-22 miles with 18 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 4 miles faster if feeling good ~ if you can do this, you'll run at PMP until 20 miles and finish the final 6 miles 'with authority'.
10. 5x4k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

Wk 6
11. 4x5k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 60 secs slower than PMP – 17/18 miles with warm up and cool down.
12. 5x(1k on @ 30 secs faster than PMP, 1k on @ PMP) this is continuous for 10 km

Wk's 7 &8 taper.

All other runs should be recovery runs with some strides thrown in once or twice a week.
First draft...

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

Right then, the way I see it: you’ve got 6 weeks training starting from this weekend and a two week taper. You’ve done a good build up in terms of speed (mile reps and 5kish stuff etc; you’ve also got a good amount of long runs under your belt with some MP miles).

Here’s what I’d do:

Wk 1
1. Long run: 20-22 miles with 10 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
2. 8x2k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km @ 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 2
3. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
4. 15 miles with 2x15 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 3
5. Long run: 20-22 miles with 14 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
6. 7x3k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 4
7. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
8. 15 miles with 2x20 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 5
9. Long run: 20-22 miles with 18 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 4 miles faster if feeling good ~ if you can do this, you'll run at PMP until 20 miles and finish the final 6 miles 'with authority'.
10. 5x4k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

Wk 6
11. 4x5k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 60 secs slower than PMP – 17/18 miles with warm up and cool down.
12. 5x(1k on @ 30 secs faster than PMP, 1k on @ PMP) this is continuous for 10 km

Wk's 7 &8 taper.

All other runs should be recovery runs with some strides thrown in once or twice a week.
First draft...

Thanks Stazza,

Really appreciate that input and the time you invested in looking at it for me.

Looks very good.

TbL

Stazza

Tuesday 4th March

a.m. 8 miles ez.
p.m. 6 miles relaxed. Felt tired in the morning but the zip was back in the evening. Hopefully the legs will have a bit pep tomorrow…

AIS before and after both runs.

(14)

statss

Forgive the very basic question, but in light of your breakdown of ptks sessions and outline to tbl, how does one decide what a realistic PMP is as this would be key for achieving the target paces in training? Do you pick a challenging goal then scale it back/up after the first few weeks of specific work based on how your feeling?

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

Right then, the way I see it: you’ve got 6 weeks training starting from this weekend and a two week taper. You’ve done a good build up in terms of speed (mile reps and 5kish stuff etc; you’ve also got a good amount of long runs under your belt with some MP miles).

Here’s what I’d do:

Wk 1
1. Long run: 20-22 miles with 10 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
2. 8x2k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km @ 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 2
3. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
4. 15 miles with 2x15 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 3
5. Long run: 20-22 miles with 14 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 2 miles faster if feeling good.
6. 7x3k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

WK 4
7. Long Run: 22-24 miles @ 60-90 secs slower than PMP
8. 15 miles with 2x20 mins at 20 secs faster than PMP/ (if tired) 13 miles with 40 mins steady

WK 5
9. Long run: 20-22 miles with 18 miles at the end of the run at 10 -15 secs slower than PMP – last 4 miles faster if feeling good ~ if you can do this, you'll run at PMP until 20 miles and finish the final 6 miles 'with authority'.
10. 5x4k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 1km 60 secs slower than PMP

Wk 6
11. 4x5k @ 15 secs faster than PMP off 60 secs slower than PMP – 17/18 miles with warm up and cool down.
12. 5x(1k on @ 30 secs faster than PMP, 1k on @ PMP) this is continuous for 10 km

Wk's 7 &8 taper.

All other runs should be recovery runs with some strides thrown in once or twice a week.
First draft...

I taken the wife's photo down from my desk and replaced it with this post!


I'm going to get stuck into this approach.

TbL

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I taken the wife's photo down from my desk and replaced it with this post!


I'm going to get stuck into this approach.

TbL

Give me a bit of time and I'll break it down and explain the reasons for each session. If there's anybody out there thinking about copying this - don't! I've looked through Tbl's log to see what he can cope with and what he needs to do, especially given he only has 6 weeks left of training. And still, this is probably going to need a few tweaks.

Gavlor

Stazza wrote: »

Give me a bit of time and I'll break it down and explain the reasoning for each session. If there's anybody out there thinking about copying this - don't! I've looked through Tbl's log to see what he can cope with and what he needs to do, especially given he only has 6 weeks left of training. And still, this is probably going to need a few tweaks.

wasn't intending on copying right now but I was just about to ask you about the suitability of 5 consecutive 20+ milers for most runners (ie me!!)


Thanks for preempting my question!!

Stazza

statss wrote: »

Forgive the very basic question, but in light of your breakdown of ptks sessions and outline to tbl, how does one decide what a realistic PMP is as this would be key for achieving the target paces in training? Do you pick a challenging goal then scale it back/up after the first few weeks of specific work based on how your feeling?

Great question and probably the most important thing to take into consideration when planning your schedule etc. There's a lot goes into working this out and unfortunately most people get this wrong. Generally, runners set the PMP too fast and this, along with other factors, results in those horrible final 2-4 miles. Get this and the training right then things should go smoothly. If the training goes smoothly and is the right sort of training, then, all things being equal, you'll finish with authority and hit /exceed your expectations.

I'll throw together some ideas on how I think you should set the PMP and some of the many factors to consider. Also, I haven't forgotten about the taper, and I still haven't explained why you shouldn't run at MP until the final three weeks - I've just given some brief outlines of schedules showing what paces to run. I'm getting there - I'll be back...

Stazza

Gavlor wrote: »

wasn't intending on copying right now but I was just about to ask you about the suitability of 5 consecutive 20+ milers for most runners (ie me!!)


Thanks for preempting my question!!

Again, good question. This is why one should start 5-6 months out from race date. Start off with 1:45(ish) and build the duration up to 2:30(or whatever, within reason, is the time you suspect you'll take to cover the distance) over 2-3 months and when you can handle the duration you start to work off distance (18-22/20-24 miles) and add in some pace/time segments. This brings you up to 10-11 weeks away from race date (Specific Period incl 2 week taper). Also, during this base/foundation phase of 3-4 months you'd be working on improving speed at LT - this means that you are developing both metabolic and musculoskeletal systems in tandem - helps cope with the weekly long runs. So when you get to the Specific Period, ironically, you ease back on the mileage and focus purely on the 1-2 sessions a week. Appropriate stress, recovery, adaptation.

With Tbl, he only has 6 weeks left but has shown he can handle the long runs and has, in fact, thrown down some PMP miles in his long runs. My main concern wouldn't be the long weekend runs, rather it's the conglomeration of workouts towards the end of the 6 weeks - this is where the tweaking needs to come in.

With regards to your own training, I'll have a look and see. But I can't see why you'd struggle with the workload as you're running well at the moment. But let me have a proper look first...

Gavlor

Stazza wrote: »

With regards to your own training, I'll have a look and see. But I can't see why you'd struggle with the workload as you're running well at the moment. But let me have a proper look first...

There's no panic, you'll have to trawl through alot of rubbish to get to the training bits!!

blockic

Gavlor wrote: »

There's no panic, you'll have to trawl through alot of rubbish to get to the training bits!!

Tee'd it up nicely for me there...but i'll leave ya off!

Gavlor

blockic wrote: »

Tee'd it up nicely for me there...but i'll leave ya off!

Enjoy your little perch for the next 5 weeks

blockic

Gavlor wrote: »

Enjoy your little perch for the next 5 weeks

Fact! Will be the last time I have it i'd say! I'll still have the half!

T runner

Thanks for the in depth replies Stazza, great posts and comprehensive answers.

Still a few queries ill put out there

RE. P the Ks training.

----The long run @ roughly 80% every other week. They are all similar in nature. I was going to query what stimulus and adaptions might occur after the first one has been recovered from. On closer inspection I see there is a range of distance and paces: (22-24 miles and 60-90 per mile slower than MP).
That might give a possible progression of 22miles @ 90 s slower to 24 miles @ 60 sec slower?
Another possibility is that the runner hits somewhere in this range based on how he/she is feeling on that particular day?

----Many coaches hold the philosophy, that training should be added to and not replaced. P the Ks schedule and the other one you posted for the TBL are similar.
For P the K, 2 maintenance AT sessions in the specific phase would have held the gains from his strong bi-weekly AT run in his 3 month base phase. (Theyd be incorporated by lowering the mileage of 2 of the 80% long runs to maintenance levels.) Should this AT session not be maintained? Perhaps the Spec endurance and Long fast runs keep that foundation solid?

--- Last query is the alternation session. I understand the benefit of forcing a body to use lactate at exactly marathon race pace. But is the session specific enough? There will be a lot more lactate in the system during this session than at any stage of his marathon race. If he cant re-use all of this lactate before the next LT segment then the session starts veering towards lactate tolerance. With the 20k session, the runner will have time to re-use all of the lactate at a slower but still quite specific pace. I understand that for around 2:50 the training is still very much aerobic and based even more around AT with a very aerobic base. Perhaps one snappy 10k alternations session is all that's required as the amounts of lactate in the system at PMP are small anyway?

None of these are criticisms, just queries. All your previous replies to other questions made perfect sense, and no rush with any replies.



As regards ST/FT orientation re. marathon: unlike yourself or Jake, I'm probably in the mid range re. fibre types. With my injury eating my available time I may now have to employ a modified 10k schedule touching some 5k/3k running. As a mid rabnger, I can use a mixture of ST and FT type sessions on the way down, the proportion of each depending on the pace (faster pace----more ST oriented session I guess). I do like the idea of mixing different types of sessions as I seemed to adapt well this way for the last marathon.

As part of the 10k modification I'm thinking of using a Canova session: 10k time trial, extending the pace by 2k every other week till 20k. The first few sessions should provide a decent endurance support for the 10k work: the last few sessions say 16-20k as a decent base for the LT and more marathon specific work to follow.

Stazza

RE. P the Ks training.

----The long run @ roughly 80% every other week. They are all similar in nature. I was going to query what stimulus and adaptions might occur after the first one has been recovered from. On closer inspection I see there is a range of distance and paces: (22-24 miles and 60-90 per mile slower than MP).
That might give a possible progression of 22miles @ 90 s slower to 24 miles @ 60 sec slower?
Another possibility is that the runner hits somewhere in this range based on how he/she is feeling on that particular day?

The first idea of the 80% run every other week is/was to maintain and develop aerobic endurance. PtK’s only been running just over 2 years – so just by getting out and doing runs over 2:05 will help with all the biomechanical and metabolic stuff, like laying capillary beds, mitochondria biogenesis (cellular stress is activated/triggered just from getting out and running for 2:30+ etc.)

The second point is to break up the incessant grinding of hard work – these runs are relaxed and enjoyable (so long as they aren’t done in storms). The 80% is only a guideline. But I didn’t want him going faster than 80%, as the idea was that he’d be ready for the Wednesday workout. And yet, there’s still a certain amount of grit and strength gained from running for over 2:30 hrs, especially after 2:05 V.B.P.. He also had the option of dropping the run down to an 18 if he felt really tired.

Third point: Psychologically, running on the race course and all the hills week in, week out – lot to be gained from this too. Although, he did need to come off the course a few times: he said, to stop the sheer boredom of dull Sunday mornings; methinks it had more to do with a Dachshund and a poodle - puppies at that:)

----Many coaches hold the philosophy, that training should be added to and not replaced. P the Ks schedule and the other one you posted for the TBL are similar.
For P the K, 2 maintenance AT sessions in the specific phase would have held the gains from his strong bi-weekly AT run in his 3 month base phase. (Theyd be incorporated by lowering the mileage of 2 of the 80% long runs to maintenance levels.) Should this AT session not be maintained? Perhaps the Spec endurance and Long fast runs keep that foundation solid?

This is a great point and caused me much concern. At first we were training together for Tralee. He was doing a 1972 MaGee [sp?]-Lydiard type thingy. He’d do the ‘steady’/AT run on the Monday and Friday. There’s no doubting that these were great for him and added substance to his training. I was thinking, would it be better to maybe drop one of these, move the other to the middle of the week and work on extending the pace.

There were pluses to this in terms of longevity and gradual progression etc. And like you mention, adding to rather than replacing has major benefits and less risk etc.

But, I felt there was more to be gained by introducing the long reps at what turned out to be nearly 50 secs faster than his original AT runs. This developed his AT, gave him belief and confidence (very important for a runner in the 3:10 area), broke up the monotony, introduced him to strides before a workout, taught him to manage different paces and listen to his body, gave him a second run totaling 17 miles+ in the middle of the week, and the progressive nature of the sessions allowed him to clearly witness the improvement – especially after the supercompensation week.

If you look where he started out at the beginning of January after a 10 week block of Lydiardesque stuff and see where he ended up 8 weeks later, the progression is substantial; also take into consideration the weather. He struggled to hold 6:55 pace for 60 mins in the middle of a 2:30 run. 7 weeks later he averaged 6:35 for 18 miles during a 22 miler in high winds – effectively 6:20 pace - on the somewhat challenging Tralee course.

I don’t think by shortening the 80% run to more of a maintenance level (17-18?) and keeping and extending the AT’s would have produced the same results. Plus, mentally, I don’t think he could have taken that sort of workload. And , you’re bang on, the Spec End and long fast runs keep the foundation solid.


--- Last query is the alternation session. I understand the benefit of forcing a body to use lactate at exactly marathon race pace. But is the session specific enough? There will be a lot more lactate in the system during this session than at any stage of his marathon race. If he cant re-use all of this lactate before the next LT segment then the session starts veering towards lactate tolerance. With the 20k session, the runner will have time to re-use all of the lactate at a slower but still quite specific pace. I understand that for around 2:50 the training is still very much aerobic and based even more around AT with a very aerobic base. Perhaps one snappy 10k alternations session is all that's required as the amounts of lactate in the system at PMP are small anyway?


You've given part of the answer in the second half of the question – but to add to that: the Tralee course is undulating from start to finish with a severe hill at about 10 miles (serious glycogen sapper and lactate raiser) and some good long pulls ( look at the split times for PtK and you’ll see where the hills are - everywhere:). The best way to deal with this type of course is to prepare the body to cope with sudden injections of lactate (that comes from the hills) and pick up the lactate and utilise it @ MP. So when he hits a hill and maintains effort, lactate rises and his body is able to cope and resynthesise etc.

Even if the race was on a pancake flat course, again, I think these are the right way to go for runners in the 3:20-2:30 range. Note, for most runners in this range their LT is closer to 10k pace:). Also, 10k pace isn't going to produce huge amounts of lactate, especially given the distance and volume of the repeats.

None of these are criticisms, just queries. All your previous replies to other questions made perfect sense, and no rush with any replies.

I know. It’s great to be having some good chit-chat without scrapping:)

As regards ST/FT orientation re. marathon: unlike yourself or Jake, I'm probably in the mid range re. fibre types. With my injury eating my available time I may now have to employ a modified 10k schedule touching some 5k/3k running. As a mid rabnger, I can use a mixture of ST and FT type sessions on the way down, the proportion of each depending on the pace (faster pace----more ST oriented session I guess). I do like the idea of mixing different types of sessions as I seemed to adapt well this way for the last marathon.

As a mid-ranger you get the best of both worlds and can/will adapt which ever way you go. But like you say, you know your body and how it best adapts for the marathon. If you can shake off this injury I still think you’ll have time to do 5k specific training. If not, I wouldn’t worry too much as anything from 10K-Half work is going to help in a big way. Look how PtK has improved with no real LT work. That’s what he’ll be doing after Tralee and that’s how he’ll hop, step, and jump over Dead Man Zone (2:55-2:30) – there’s method in all this madness. You’ve got to have somewhere to go…

As part of the 10k modification I'm thinking of using a Canova session: 10k time trial, extending the pace by 2k every other week till 20k. The first few sessions should provide a decent endurance support for the 10k work: the last few sessions say 16-20k as a decent base for the LT and more marathon specific work to follow.

Yes, absolutely. That said, I don’t envy you. The thought of long work makes me shudder – as I found out today, it exposes the weaknesses.

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

RE. P the Ks training.

[.......Yes, absolutely. That said, I don’t envy you. The thought of long work makes me shudder – as I found out today, it exposes the weaknesses.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, much appreciated.