The Running Master

ecoli

menoscemo wrote: »

There is no point putting a bet e/w on someone less than 4/1. Eg if you put 10 e/w on jeptoo at 2/1 the bet costs you 20 and if she places you only get 1/4 odds on 10 of your 20 bet. That means 10 @ 1/2 for a 15 return which is less than your original stake of 20. You lose money even if you win!!

Quote wrong post?

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

I know, I know If the wife finds out, I'm dead :eek:

And for that cash you could have paid for 4 driving lessons

TbL

ecoli

Value bet of the week (though knowing Skybets LLs I can't imagine you can get too much on)

Farah @ 5/6 to finish over 2.06 (selection includes DNF)

Basically they are saying that its a 50/50 where personally i would reckon that his finishing under 2.06 is realistically a 15/8 shot (and that is slightly generous)

menoscemo

ecoli wrote: »

Quote wrong post?

Yeah, damn mobile. I was talking about stazza betting Jeptoo (and other short priced runners) each way. I'd say the lady in ladbrokes was only too eager to take his money, especially with those 1/5 e/w odds on the top 3.

Stazza

I was feeling all smug, thinking I had the bases covered - now, given Menoscemo's simple explanation, I feel like a right plonker. I can just imagine that little Ladbrokes' lady telling her partner about the eejit that came in today. One thing's for sure, the lad is broke now.

And as for the driving lessons, that sounds like something my wife would say.

Come on the Ethiopians. Come on!

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

I was feeling all smug, thinking I had the bases covered - now, given Menoscemo's simple explanation, I feel like a right plonker. I can just imagine that little Ladbrokes' lady telling her partner about the eejit that came in today. One thing's for sure, the lad is broke now.

And as for the driving lessons, that sounds like something my wife would say.

Come on the Ethiopians. Come on!

Mine doesn't talk about driving lessons, although she does go on a bit about her flamin headaches, seems to afflict her mainly at night though

TbL

barryoneill50

Stazza wrote: »

The nice lady in Ladbrokes gave me E/W 1/5 odds a place first 3

She probably suspected you had some inside info so:D

Pacing Mule

But is it not the case that you get your stake back as well as the winnings if your bet wins so you don't actually lose money on a winning ew bet with short odds ?

menoscemo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

But is it not the case that you get your stake back as well as the winnings if your bet wins so you don't actually lose money on a winning ew bet with short odds ?

No, you only get your money back on the place part (half the stake on an e/w bet) unless your runner wins. For odds of 6/1 or less ( I would actually only bet e/w over 12/1) you are better putting the whole thing on the win

Stazza

menoscemo wrote: »

No, you only get your money back on the place part (half the stake on an e/w bet) unless your runner wins. For odds of 6/1 or less ( I would actually only bet e/w over 12/1) you are better putting the whole thing on the win

12/1:eek: Ho hum. Anybody fancy their chances against a really old fella over 5k - he's meant to be all talk, not too bright, easy money.

Stazza

barryoneill50 wrote: »

She probably suspected you had some inside info so:D

I do

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

12/1:eek: Ho hum. Anybody fancy their chances against a really old fella over 5k - he's meant to be all talk, not too bright, easy money.

If you don't step out soon, you won't need people to drive you around, you'll have the free bus pass

TbL

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

If you don't step out soon, you won't need people to drive you around, you'll have the free bus pass

TbL

That's it, kick me while I'm down

I'm off to the pub with my old fella for a nice fillet steak - better make sure he's got his wallet; luckily it's at the top of the road and I don't need to get a bus

Stazza

Saturday 12th April

a.m. 6 miles ez.
p.m. 6 miles steady.

(12)

Sunday 13th April

p.m. 2 miles w/u, incl drills and strides, 8x400m off 90 secs, 2 miles c/d

Today’s target, based on previous session of 5x800m in 2:34 -77secs for ea 400, should have been 73 secs. But because I’m one set through the block of training, the 400’s should’ve been 1 sec faster – 72 secs. Although that’s pretty slow, it’s a building process.

When I got to the track the wind was wicked. Although the wind didn’t slow the reps down, I had to work harder than I would’ve like to hold the pace over the first 200m, which meant that I was hanging on over the final 200 of each rep. The wind ended up wrecking the session as I just couldn’t hold the final few reps:

1. 70
2. 70
3. 69
4. 71
5. 70
6. 72
7. 73
8. 73 Av 71.

Pleased enough with the work put in and that the reps averaged 1 sec faster than targeted.

So this now gives me the following base/starting points:

1. 8x400 – 71
2. 5x800 – 2:34 (77’s)
3. 4x1600m – 5:22 (80-81)

Given today’s 400’s, the next session of 5x800’s should be completed in 2:30’s and the next session of 4x1600’s in 5:16’s…

ecoli

I couldn't pick your brain on the Horwill system? In my readings of implementing the 4 sec pace rule by alot of people there is one question I have always had is when I see the word "should"

Does the system make allowances for stagnation/plateauing? The progression to me seems to be too uniform to be realistic. i.e if you don't hit paces do you just push on and hope or repeat until you do hit the aimed paces?

Again I could be missing something as admittedly it is not a training approach I have looked at in depth (though there are elements of it which I have derived from some who have adapted elements of the approach that I do agree with hence the interest)

Stazza

The 4 sec ‘rule’ is a guideline and for some runners (normally slower runners and for some reason, women, and as it turns out old fellas like me) it’s more like 5 secs. Also, it identifies strengths and weaknesses, which give a good indication which event to pick.

So if I’m running 64’s for the 8x400m off 90 sec session then I ‘should’ be running the 5x800’s in 68’s, the 1600’s in 72. This translates to 4mins for 1500m, 8:30 for 3k, and 15 for 5k. That’s pretty much what I was running when I was in my late teens – both the sessions and the races. The other support sessions are 800m pace – 5x300m off 3 mins/4x400m off 3 mins – and a 400m session – 8x200m off a 200 jog in 2:30-3mins. That’s if you are targeting the 1500m.

I recently did the 8x200’s in 31 sec av=62 for 400, so I ‘should’ run the 4x400’s in 66’s, and the 8x400’s in 70’s, the 5x800’s in 2:30, and the 4x1600m in 5:16.

Although I only ran the 8x400’s in 71 secs (given the 8x200’s in 31’s I ‘should run the 8x400’s in 70 – so I’m down 1 sec or rather than 4 secs difference, I’m doing 5 sec difference – probably down to fitness, weight, and lack of hard running). This goes on up the chain: my 5x800’s are not going by the 4 sec rule, they’re going at 5 sec too. But the 1600’s were on the button at 4 sec. This tells me that I should be focusing on the 5k.

If I’m to focus on 5k, I should be doing a 1500m pace session – 8x400m - a 3k session – 5x800m – a 5k session – 4x1600m – a 10k session -6x1600m/5x2k/3x3200m, a LT session – 2x15mins/20mins/25 mins/20min+10 etc. There are loads of other sessions for each of the paces – I just like the ones I’m using.

At some point the athlete will plateau and that’s when it’s a good idea to drop in (I’m sorry about this, a yoyo). Here you drop in something that’ll stress the system and kick start a new response. This could be doing a short hill session/ a 400m or 800m pace session. It might even mean doing something longer to help with endurance.

But still, there’s only so much you can improve in a season (musculoskeletal system etc has to be able to cope with the workload too), So, it’s important that the ‘winter’ work is done first. If it isn’t, the runner will burn out pretty quickly.

What I’ve found is that it depends on the runner. Look at Jake – 66’s for 8x400m and then 68’s for the 800’s – the inconsistency/weakness is obvious. And this is where the gains can be made – the weakness is now an opportunity.

Also, it’s not just a matter of turning up and doing the sessions – you’ve got to work hard at each session. But the improvements do happen. I would recommend for people in their 20’s/early 30’s a block of 12 weeks in spring/early summer and then move on to more progressive and race specific work. I’d suggest ignoring Horwill’s ideas on rec (they’re nuts). Each runner needs to find out their own balance.

Another consideration: if an athlete has been doing multi-pace training for a good few seasons, it’s more than likely that they will plateau. This is where careful consideration is necessary: identify weakness and find sessions to convert weaknesses into opportunities.

If you look at what you and Quirky are doing now with your 5k sessions (working up the ladder) this is a good idea to employ with athletes who are stuck in a rut: you can increase the pace and then extend it. This is exactly what the Kenyans do. So, you guys are, imo, doing the right thing at this stage of the season.

What might be worth considering is some support sessions faster than 5k pace. But I would hold off with them for now: both of you are improving. When you feel that you’re not, that’s the time to drop in the yoyos.

Just a couple of other things for you - most middle distance runners use some form of multi-pace training at certain periods of the year - normally spring. The chap that you and Quirky like, Rubio, - he's a fan too. You've probably got this, but it might help others.

Can't get the link to work but it can be found if you google Joe Rubio - Fundamental Training
Principles for the Competitive 1500m Runner.

ecoli

Here's the link (find him useful alright and Hadley also incorporates a multi paced approach):

http://img.runningwarehouse.com/pdf/middle_distance_guide.pdf

Cheers for the explanation.

Funny you should mention the faster than 5k pace as I have a session one Tuesday and am slowly transitioning down into the track sessions come May for the summer.

Stazza

Monday 14th April

a.m. 6 miles recovery run with Paddy the Kenyan. Very tied after yesterday’s track session.

p.m. 6 miles with a bit of zip. Felt completely recovered, which is very strange. Last time I did 400’s it took nearly a week to get out of bed. Not complaining…

(12)

jakek

Stazza wrote: »

What I’ve found is that it depends on the runner. Look at Jake – 66’s for 8x400m and then 68’s for the 800’s – the inconsistency/weakness is obvious. And this is where the gains can be made – the weakness is now an opportunity.

Good explanation of the system. And I stole your weakness/opportunity line for my training blog post yesterday

Stazza

Tuesday 15th April

a.m. 6 miles ez.
p.m. 6 miles steady.

(12)

Wednesday 16th April

a.m. 13 miles steady.
p.m. 5 miles relaxed.

(18)

Over the last few weeks I’ve dropped the LT runs and the ‘long run’ so that I could assess where I was in terms of starting my track work. This also afforded me the opportunity to work out exactly how long it was taking to recover ‘fully’ from workouts. Now that I have that sussed, I’ve been able to sort my training out into 2 week blocks and reintroduce a mlr. I've also sorted out a provisional racing schedule. The first race may see Thomas the Mod (I know he’s a rocker in real life) and me going head to head in a battle of the Kerry old fellas…:pac::pac::pac:

TFBubendorfer

Stazza wrote: »

The first race may see Thomas the Mod (I know he’s a rocker in real life) and me going head to head in a battle of the Kerry old fellas…:pac::pac::pac:

I'm still reeling from the potential shock that AC/DC may be breaking up, which tells you all you need to know about both my age as well as my musical tastes.

I wouldn't have thought we're aiming for the same kind of races. I haven't got any plans for anything shorter than marathon for the next few months, I think you might have to battle some other Kerry old fellas instead.

Stazza

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'm still reeling from the potential shock that AC/DC may be breaking up, which tells you all you need to know about both my age as well as my musical tastes.

I wouldn't have thought we're aiming for the same kind of races. I haven't got any plans for anything shorter than marathon for the next few months, I think you might have to battle some other Kerry old fellas instead.

Nah, I thought you might be tempted by the Farranfore mile races, especially as there's an Over 40's section. I know that's well out of your comfort zone, but perhaps the novelty might pique your interest. And given your recent display at the County 5k Champs, you just never know. Don't you think it would be interesting to see what time you could bang out in a mile race on the road? And if you were to turn up, I'd even let you stand next to me on the start line - now there's an opportunity of a lifetime

And on the Mods v the Rockers, you do realise that I know you secretly long to ride a vesper :pac::pac::pac:

Stazza

Thursday 17th April

a.m. 5 tired miles.
p.m. 5 miles ez. Felt much better on this run. I think yesterday’s 18 miles slapped me about.

(10)

I’ve sorted out a provisional race schedule:

6th May – Farranfore Mile dash Challenge (road – slight uphill) (?)
11th May – Riocht 10 miles/5k (?)
25th May – Kerry Masters Track – 3000m
22nd June – Munster Masters Track – 3000m
4th Aug – Banna 5k/10k
17th Aug – Tralee 10k
Sept – Riocht 5k
21st Sept - Charleville Half Marathon
Oct-Nov – Mizuno 5k series

The main race of the season is the Charleville Half - I’ll be attacking 68 mins*. I’ll have a crack at the Irish M45 5k record sometime in Oct-Nov.

*Stop screaming at the screen: I’m joking; haven’t a clue what time I’ll be targeting.

Stazza

With apologies to allie

Why did the Easter Bunny cross the road?

No bunny knows :pac::pac::pac:

I'm off to the track... I crack myself up.

dna_leri

Stazza wrote: »

Thursday 17th April

I’ve sorted out a provisional race schedule:

6th May – Farranfore Mile dash Challenge (road – slight uphill) (?)
11th May – Riocht 10 miles/5k (?)
25th May – Kerry Masters Track – 3000m
22nd June – Munster Masters Track – 3000m
4th Aug – Banna 5k/10k
17th Aug – Tralee 10k
Sept – Riocht 5k
21st Sept - Charleville Half Marathon
Oct-Nov – Mizuno 5k series

.[/SIZE]

Nice plan. Are you forgoing the National Masters in favour of a local 10K?
Also do you expect to get any competition in the Kerry & Munster Masters track races? You might be better off dropping down to the seniors and getting a good race (2nd place in M45-49 Munster 3000m was 11:32 last year).

Stazza

dna_leri wrote: »

Nice plan. Are you forgoing the National Masters in favour of a local 10K?
Also do you expect to get any competition in the Kerry & Munster Masters track races? You might be better off dropping down to the seniors and getting a good race (2nd place in M45-49 Munster 3000m was 11:32 last year).

I wasn't sure whether to do the National Masters 5000m or the local 10k. I was going to enter the 5000m and then keep an eye on the weather - didn't want to travel all the way up to Dublin if the it was going to be a windy day. All joking aside, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in titles etc. I wanted to do the 5000m so that I could get a good race in against some of the top Irish Masters, but not so sure I need to spend two days heading to Dublin for a 5000m race.

Now, with that being said, fate has conspire... No, nothing as bad as an injury but something very worrying happened today at the track. Very worrying indeed. I think my track days are over and I might just have to face the fact that I'm going to have to do the marathon.

I did my usual warm up (2-3 miles progression, drills, and strides) and then got stuck into my 5x800m off 2 mins. The target was 2:30-32. Did the first rep in 2:28 and felt very ex and smooth. Decided to keep them at 2:28. Then the strangest thing happened:

On the second rep I went through 200m in 36:xx and felt great and as I came off the 300m mark everything went weird. Strange buzzing sound in my head and the track started moving like the sea and I felt all dizzy. I stopped immediately. Gathered myself and then decided to bin the session - no cool down or anything. Haven't a clue what happened. The only time that's ever happened to me was when I boxed a US Airman and he hit me with his third hand . Only difference was that the lights went out soon after pinged me.

So, right now I'm not sure what's what. I feel fine and think it might just have been something to do with a bad nights sleep. Blood sugar was fine - had two wholemeal bagels for breakfast. Whoops, feeling a bit dizzy now. Laters...

barryoneill50

Stazza wrote: »

I wasn't sure whether to do the National Masters 5000m or the local 10k. I was going to enter the 5000m and then keep an eye on the weather - didn't want to travel all the way up to Dublin if the it was going to be a windy day. All joking aside, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in titles etc. I wanted to do the 5000m so that I could get a good race in against some of the top Irish Masters, but not so sure I need to spend two days heading to Dublin for a 5000m race.

Now, with that being said, fate has conspire... No, nothing as bad as an injury but something very worrying happened today at the track. Very worrying indeed. I think my track days are over and I might just have to face the fact that I'm going to have to do the marathon.

I did my usual warm up (2-3 miles progression, drills, and strides) and then got stuck into my 5x800m off 2 mins. The target was 2:30-32. Did the first rep in 2:28 and felt very ex and smooth. Decided to keep them at 2:28. Then the strangest thing happened:

On the second rep I went through 200m in 36:xx and felt great and as I came off the 300m mark everything went weird. Strange buzzing sound in my head and the track started moving like the sea and I felt all dizzy. I stopped immediately. Gathered myself and then decided to bin the session - no cool down or anything. Haven't a clue what happened. The only time that's ever happened to me was when I boxed a US Airman and he hit me with his third hand . Only difference was that the lights went out soon after pinged me.

So, right now I'm not sure what's what. I feel fine and think it might just have been something to do with a bad nights sleep. Blood sugar was fine - had two wholemeal bagels for breakfast. Whoops, feeling a bit dizzy now. Laters...

Going by your target hm time of 68 min a 2:25 marathon should be no bother to ya:D

ecoli

Whats the weather like down there? Could it be a reaction to the temp change. I know when I did attempted my session on Tuesday morning I felt very thirsty despite hydration levels being normal (and continued right through the day).

I wouldn't make any knee jerk reactions just yet (especially as you have completed sessions to date at faster paces) just monitor over the coming days and see how you go. Remember a bad night sleep can also impact your bodies hydration levels immensely

drquirky

Ah man!!! If you don't race you won't be able to take on my personal challenge to the Stazza system!

The most important thing is your health though.

Feel better soon!

Stazza

Wow, what a day - been in hospital having a CT scan and thought I was going to end up having a lumbar puncture :eek:

While I was responding to the Sligo Silver Speedo, I came over all dizzy again. Ended up going to some emergency Doctor thing. Doc referred me on to A&E with suspected/possible/outside chance of a brain aneurysm :eek: The letter suggested a CT scan, possible lumbar puncture and something in Doctor's secret code. Had some tests and a CT scan.

Here's how the wife summed it:

"Only you could go into hospital with a suspected brain haemorrhage and come out with a mucky ear.' I think she was really p1ssed that her shopping trip had to be curtailed to rush me to the Doc.

So, apparently, my right ear is clogged up with wax - lovely.

I'll live to fight another day.