The Running Master

TFBubendorfer

dublin runner wrote: »

No offense but this is not a training log.

You don't say!

thewolf_ie

This is my favourite log!

Stazza

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

You don't say!

Soon enough, they'll get bored. I'm just surprised that they don't realise that they are being played - big time. But anyway...

Just for my loyal readers

I ran 6 miles this morning and I ran it faster than I normally do. Seriously, I'll update at the end of the week with an overview and if you're keeping a log and want to discus running, I'll engage.

So, if you just want to read about training etc - Sunday evening. Anything posted before that will probably be the very bright boys showing us how clever their little plan really is...

Oh Yes, Thomas - great run in Belfast; I was delighted for you.

dublin runner

In all seriousness, I do enjoy reading half of what you say. I think you can make very valid and interesting points but I also feel it can get lost in all the fluff.

I may see you in Tralee next year. Hopefully I will be the hobbyjogger running 6 minute miles! I will wait for you at the finish line, don't worry

Stazza

But if you are running 6 min miles, you'll probably sneak into the 'runner' category If you decide to run and need anything, let me know.

dublin runner

Stazza wrote: »

But if you are running 6 min miles, you'll probably sneak into the 'runner' category If you decide to run and need anything, let me know.

A stair lift for the Barrow Hill please :pac:

Stazza

dublin runner wrote: »

A stair lift for the Barrow Hill please :pac:

Barrow Hill isn't in next year's course.

W.B. Yeats

Can we move on from the Heaney debacle? I'm intrigued at who's number 1. Kavanagh? Clarke? Wilde's work surely hasn't enough depth.

Stazza

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Can we move on from the Heaney debacle? I'm intrigued at who's number 1. Kavanagh? Clarke? Wilde's work surely hasn't enough depth.

This morning, during my run (this now makes it running related and ok to post on this log), I was thinking about your question.

You're like a teenage boy who's just realised that 'it' can do more than pee. If you don't slow down, this will get messy and embarrassing. We have to talk about Heaney and Yeats and I suppose, give clues to Ireland's number 1 poet and, world number 3...

W.B. Yeats

Stazza wrote: »

This morning, during my run (this now makes it running related and ok to post on this log), I was thinking about your question.

You're like a teenage boy who's just realised that 'it' can do more than pee. If you don't slow down, this will get messy and embarrassing. We have to talk about Heaney and Yeats and I suppose, give clues to Ireland's number 1 poet and, world number 3...

It took you until your teenage years to work that one out?
I suppose there are pros and cons with negative capability- the creativity and ingenuity to allow us operate beyond traditional bounds-but it may also be responsible for you creating a league of Ireland of poets and poetry. and worse again it seems you are hell bent on creating a world cup extravaganza.
You may need to up the speed of some of those miles you're doing to take your mind off such flights of fancy

Stazza

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

It took you until your teenage years to work that one out?
I suppose there are pros and cons with negative capability- the creativity and ingenuity to allow us operate beyond traditional bounds-but it may also be responsible for you creating a league of Ireland of poets and poetry. and worse again it seems you are hell bent on creating a world cup extravaganza.
You may need to up the speed of some of those miles you're doing to take your mind off such flights of fancy

Now you're talking Yeats - Keats is the man.;)

ultrapercy

Stazza wrote: »

Haha - good man - I take it you're a man. So we're pretty much about the same standard given y(our) pb's. If you're still running, then maybe we could have a wee chat. I'm open to hearing what you've got to say about masters marathon plans etc.

And just to be clear, I didn't say everybody in Ireland was a hobbyjogger. I said, my definition of a hobbyjogger was somebody slower 2:40. It's important to get these things right otherwise some might not take you seriously. Although, I think I'd call it more in the, slower than 2:37 range. I stand by that. But remember, it's just my definition/thoughts.

And regarding elites in Ireland - we'll have to differ again. For me, 2:15 or quicker is the bottom end of elite. That's not to say somebody running 2:18-2:24 isn't a good runner. That area is what I'd call sub elite to decent club runner.

Anyone who runs competitively but whos primary source of income is not derived from the sport of running, is by definition, a "hobbyjogger". That term is demeaning to many on boards like these who train and race with pride regardless of their level or ability and see it (quite rightly) as snobbery. The term "hobbyjogger" is used a lot by the pimple squeezing, rasist, sexist, self pleasuring pond life that frequent Letsrun, it may even have been coined by same and is surely beneath a man of your literary aspirations ?

Stazza

ultrapercy wrote: »

Anyone who runs competitively but whos primary source of income is not derived from the sport of running, is by definition, a "hobbyjogger". That term is demeaning to many on boards like these who train and race with pride regardless of their level or ability and see it (quite rightly) as snobbery. The term "hobbyjogger" is used a lot by the pimple squeezing, rasist, sexist, self pleasuring pond life that frequent Letsrun, it may even have been coined by same and is surely beneath a man of your literary aspirations ?

Point well made and point well taken.

That doesn't, however, change my point about the 2:37-2:40 benchmark. For me, that's the point where 'we' transition from 'fun runner' to runner. Or maybe it might just be prudent to say, for me, the point/benchmark where the league begins in terms of competitive running is 2:37-2:40 - for the marathon and I still think that's very generous. Please note, that I consider myself to be amongst the many aspiring to reach the aforementioned league. So, by definition I would be a 'hobbyjogger/fun runner/non league jogger/runner.

But to bring this back round to your point, yes, I agree with you and it was tactless of me. And, given that I was on the T Runner side of the sexist debate, then my mistake is all the more derogatory - and that isn't on. My genuine apologies. Thank you for pulling me up.

Chivito550

This log is a bit rubbish tbh. Far too much talking, not enough racing!

Stazza

Chivito550 wrote: »

This log is a bit rubbish tbh. Far too much talking, not enough racing!

Well skin, you know what to do...

pistol_75

Me think they doth protest too much Stazza

Stazza

The plot thickens and the characters get thicker:pac::pac::pac:

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

The plot thickens and the characters get thicker:pac::pac::pac:

Who is it? :pac:

TFBubendorfer

Well done Jake! http://jkrong.fastrunningblog.com/blog-08-23-2014.html

Stazza, can you take credit for that?

Stazza

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Well done Jake! http://jkrong.fastrunningblog.com/blog-08-23-2014.html

Stazza, can you take credit for that?

I don't understand what you mean...

Stazza

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Well done Jake! http://jkrong.fastrunningblog.com/blog-08-23-2014.html

Stazza, can you take credit for that?

I think I get your drift. You tell me:

Here’s what I posted, as Bam, on Jake’s blog back on the 24th May. (He changed his legendary blog title from, The Secret is… There is no secret to Lone Wolf.)

Here’s what you need to do:
One day, without telling anybody, disappear. Head up into the mountains and have it out with a cave full of bears. Kill all the bears with your bare hands (in Acorn cage-fighting style) and take over the cave. Befriend a wolf and change your name to Lone Wolf Krong.

Meanwhile, back in SLC and the surrounding suburbs, downhill hobby-joggers will chat. Quickly, myth and fact will combine; the urban legend to end all legends will be born - the legend of Lone Wolf Krong. The legend of the man/beast of the night that reputedly ran 250 miles a week, held down a job, blogged, skied, shuffled and shunted, ran amazing times, and gave it all up to be at one with nature.

Before long, Fast Running Bloggers will demand that a statue be erected as a tribute to their hero, Lone Wolf Krong.

While visitors to SLC gaze at the marvelous statue of L.W.K. and children ask their parents, who is that strange man? L.W.K. will be up in the mountains - training.

His nutrition will be berries and bear and the freshest mountain spring water. His training diary will be painted in bear blood on the walls of the cave in matchstick-man fashion. No longer will he run in Saucony orange. No. He will run bare. Birthday-suit Naked. He will not run barefoot; he will run in bearskin shoes.

Whispers will abound. Apparently he came into town one night - Doc Poulsen saw him when he was heading out on a pre-hunting run at 2 a.m. and he absconded with Andrea and took her up into the mountains and now he keeps her as his running mate.

Some tourists reported that they saw her doing some strange cross training poses - a cross between a cross bear and a cross wolf; Bearwolf, the pose is called. And then when she saw them, she skedaddled off up the mountain at 5 min mile pace.

Healed by love and bear blood, Andrea is now the fastest female on the planet at all distances from one yard to 100 miles.

When the moon is full and the icy night sky weeps white tears, if you listen carefully, you might just hear Lone Wolf Krong and his running mate, Andrea of the Bearwolf pose, howling at the moon. The music of unfilled dreams. The music of pain. The music of love.

And what of L.W.K.? Well, nobody truly knows what’s what. Except, of course, for Doc Poulsen. The Doc’s been tracking him down for years. Not so that he can learn the secret powers of bear and berry medicine, or the secrets of mountain fitness, or the secret healing powers of high altitude cave dwelling. No. The Doc wants to shoot him, stuff him, and pop him up above his fireplace.
Run Jake, run.

---

And then, here are some snippets of emails that Jake sent me – I know he doesn’t mind me posting these

I hear you loud and clear - don't train for the 3K and Marathon at the same time and expect to be good at both... or either! :-)

Great points here... a lot of stuff I needed to hear, even though I kind of knew this stuff... I'm stubborn and need to hear it over and over I guess.

Like you said - enthusiasm is an important thing to keep in mind. If I'm not 100% dialed in (as I haven't been recently) - the very fast track sessions become a chore. Tempo runs and LT workouts are easier to get started with - I go into them with a more positive frame of mind.

Now I'll go do it...

---

What you suggested here is very similar to the outline I put together... not surprising because I think I subconsciously based on the outline you posted in the IE boards way back in January.

The idea is to use those marathon "reps" sessions you described and alternate them with threshold workouts - 3-4 x 3K, 2 x 5K, etc. Everything building towards longer repetitions.

Weekends would alternate "easier" long runs on rolling terrain (like Jeremy Ranch road but I'm not going to go overboard and run there every week) and then some LRs on flatter terrain (these runs would be faster and eventually become more marathon-specific).

I'll sprinkle in some faster stuff - whether it's hills, short track reps, or the occasional local 5K.

I think the some main things I need to remember are

1) Don't force it early (ie. let July just flow and don't try and get ahead of myself)
2) Keep the harder days spread out enough so I'm really looking forward to them and getting bored with running easy :-)

Bigger picture, it's conceivable that I could run Chicago and CIM... if nothing else, that idea keeps me from pressing too hard in the buildup to Chicago. If I learned anything from Paul, it's that you are better off going into the marathon a little under-trained, but on an upward trajectory, and you never know what might happen if you find yourself with a group of guys to latch on with.

In about a month, once I've done a few sessions, have an idea of where I'm at and where I'm going, I'll send over my schedule after I've made a round or two of adjustments, so I can get your feedback on it.

---

Good to hear from you. I figured you be returning from holiday and checking in at some point around this time.

Things are going well. I'm really just enjoying the daily running and the process of slowly whittling myself back into racing form. Dare I say that I'm having a lot of FUN with it right now? :-)

I know I won't be at an absolute peak by the time Chicago rolls around, but I figure if I'm at 90%, anything can happen in the race itself. I want to run CIM in December again, so I'm still holding off on the more marathon specific sessions for a bit. Will run Top of Utah 1/2 on Aug 23, make my (triumphant) return to racing, get a sense of where I'm at, and go from there.

Glad you like those Kinvara 5s. Great shoe.

---

Things are going very well. Continuing to build some momentum. I have no idea what I'm capable of this weekend in the half-marathon, as I haven't really tested myself yet in any workouts... but I'll run with the intention of winning and see what happens.

---

Today was a nice effort. I figured I'd run ~67:30 b/c I wasn't going to take the lead until I absolutely had to, and it pretty much went as planned. The lack of sustained faster efforts is evident, but I could have held that pace a while longer. Feeling good about it all at the moment. I'm at a point where I can start introducing some more marathon-type workouts now, and looking forward to that. Honestly it just felt great to break a finish line tape again.

---

Hopefully this goes some way to answering your question. There's a lot more I could post, but then, nah.

Stazza

Enough of the nonsense – here we go:

Took most of July off and started back with a week of 6*6 milers and an 8. Followed this by adding in two doubles (6’s) and then the next week, 4 doubles (6’s). So that’s a 38 mile week, a 50, and a 62. A sprinkle of progression runs and lots of rehab, functional strength, and mobility work. The week that was (see below) is my final week of ‘getting back into it.’

Monday 18th August

a.m. 6 miles easy. Ended up getting a dog on Saturday and sleep has been interrupted. I’ve responded well to the rehab work I’ve been doing. Over the last few days or so I’ve been running without pain/discomfort – first time really since November last year.

p.m. 6 miles progression run. Dropped Grace off at training and headed for two laps of the Castleisland 5k course (the now infamous 17:12 course). First 2 miles were easy and then I picked it up each km. Good run. Felt strong and fat.

12

Tuesday 19th August

a.m. 6 miles easy. Ran this a bit too quickly but felt comfortable. Dog is a nuisance – cats are much better.

p.m. 7 miles progression run. Started out nice and easy and picked it up after about 2 miles. About 4 miles at a good clip.

13

Wednesday 20th August

a.m. 6 miles easy. Tired enough but mainly down to having to get up in the night to the dog – why did I ever say yes and why do I have to get up to deal with the dog. And then, there’s another one coming tomorrow. 2 dogs; I hate dogs.

p.m. The wife drove us over to Castleisland and we dropped Grace off for training. Majella and the ‘O’ took Heidi the dog for a walk while I dropped out an easy to steady 6 miles. Tired. Got home and the second dog had arrived – a day early. Bedlam.

12

Thursday 21st August

a.m. 6 miles easy bumped into Himself and had a good old chat.

p.m. 7 miles progression. Started out very easy and thought that it might be better to just do an easy run but once I’d done a few miles things felt a lot better and the speed increased naturally. Dogs are getting on great and sleep has improved.

13

Friday 22nd August

a.m. 11 miles easy. I’d hoped to do a 12 on Sunday but real life has been mad this week and things look like they might get crazier… So I decided to get this in while the going was good. Set off and felt tired enough. Breathing was laboured and legs were heavy and that didn’t change during the run.

11 is the longest run I’ve done in donks. But I think it was more to do with the increase in miles, the previous day’s progression, and the broken sleep. Now I’ve got a scheduled day off and then an easy double day on Sunday.

11

Saturday 23rd August

Rest day.

Sunday 24th August

a.m. 6 miles easy. Legs felt great after the day off.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Felt good and held back the pace.

12

73 miles for the week, incl a scheduled day off.


Tomorrow, I’ll start an eighteen week phase, which should prepare me for an eleven week marathon specific block, including a 10 day taper.

The eighteen week phase breaks down into 6*3 week blocks where the idea is to get progressively faster and stronger. The third week in each block is a step back week insomuch as there is a scheduled rest day. The first block of three weeks is a feeler block – easing back into some moderate intensity, while stabilizing the mileage in and around the 100mpw+ mark. The sessions aren’t as intense as the track work so I think I can cope with the mileage. If, however, I feel like the mileage is impinging on the overall balance and effectiveness, I’ll drop back.

Best laid schemes of mice and men…

thewolf_ie

Ah good stuff, nice to see you back running.

jakek

Good to see this thread resurrected! Although I'm pages and pages behind so I have no idea what you are all currently arguing about :-)

It's actually cool to see those snippets of my emails w/ Stazza laid out... I did hit a low point in the spring, but I seem to be on the upswing now. Mentally, I'm engaged. Physically, I'm getting stronger and faster. I'm having fun. I'm motivated to have a big fall racing season. It's not all about chasing the OT standard... I want to improve, I want to win some races, and just see where it takes me.

I'm using a lot of the principles I learned from Stazza about how to structure a training schedule. See my fast running blog post from August 19th (IE boards won't let me post links).

I didn't think in terms of logical progression like that before this year and Stazza's influence.

He can't take credit for the hair, though... that's all me!

pa4

Good to see you back with some consistency. What will you be peaking at with your mileage?

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

Good to see you back with some consistency. What will you be peaking at with your mileage?

Thanks. Not sure yet. Last year, between September and the end of November, I averaged 110 with 12 weeks on the run over 100. But I'm more concerned about the 'workouts'. The idea of the easy days will be to get in as much mileage as I can while recovering. I'll be ok up to 110 but after that, I'll have to keep a close eye on things...

Stazza

Monday 25th Aug

a.m. 8 miles easy. Probably ran a bit too quick but felt ok.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Again, probably should’ve eased off a bit.

14

Tuesday 26th August

a.m. 9 miles, incl 10 mins @ LT(ish) - 3 mins jog - 8 mins @LT(ish) – 5 mins jog – 6x33 sec uphill off jog back recovery.

The idea of the two LT reps was just to get something more structured in than the progressions I’’ve been doing. I had no pace in mind for these. I just wanted to run them feeling well in control. Both of them felt controlled and relaxed. I did, however, feel the extra weight I’m carrying but that will slip off soon enough. The first rep turned out to be 6:04 pace and the second 6:00 pace.

The 6x33 sec uphill weren’t sprints. I dropped them out @ 5:30-36 pace (not that that really means anything) and they were all about form and control – pleased with how these went.

p.m. 5 miles shakeout. Had that old, you’ve done a workout earlier feeling in the legs.

14

Wednesday 27th August

a.m. 8 miles easy. Phew, this was a slog. Tired. The increase from 6-8, shedding a few pounds, having yesterday’s session in my legs, and doing this on empty –circumstances - made this a bit of a, ‘are we nearly there yet,’ run. And then when I got ‘there’, I had to go through my whole functional fitness routine. I’ll enjoy my afternoon nap today. Even better news, the kids are back to school tomorrow.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Legs were heavy enough during the first 3-4 miles. Things felt much better in the final two miles. Heavy in a good way. I think the previous day’s session provided the stimulus I was after and I’ve recovered nicely.

14

Thursday 28th August

a.m. 10 miles, incl 3x(6x35 secs @ 4:48-4:52 pace) off a jog back recovery and 600m jog b/ween sets.

Felt a bit rusty on these but tried to focus on form rather speed/effort and it worked out quite well.

p.m. 4 miles easy to moderate. Kept the calorie intake low b/ween runs. This second run will develop into one of the ‘key’ sessions in the 18 week preparation phase.

14

Friday 29th August

a.m. 8 miles easy. Felt ok. A lot fresher than I thought I would; might have been the bagel with almond butter I had for breakfast – breakfast of champions.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Nice little jaunt out along the canal. Felt good.

14

Saturday 30th August

a.m. 14 miles easy. The plan was to just go and run the 14 miles and try and get around without feeling too ropey. The reason for just getting around was down to my lack of long runs, the increase in the mileage, and that I’d only one day to recover from Thursday’s workout. Ideally, this run would have been better tomorrow, but circumstances meant that I had to get it in today.

8:10
7:53
7:43 (stopped to water the flowers)
7:10
7:01
6:49
6:56
6:41
6:55
6:36
6:32
6:44
8:12
7:38

Felt easy the whole way – should be no problem adding on a few more miles next week.

14

Sunday 31st August

a.m. 8 miles easy. Felt good enough. Enjoyed the run.


p.m. 6 miles progression run to finish off the week. Planned on an easy 6 but the legs took off. Should have held back.

14

98 miles for the week. 13 runs with two introductory workouts and a mlr.

ThebitterLemon

If you stopped to "water the flowers" on mile 3 of your Saturday run, what were you doing on the second last mile? Fertilising them

TbL

Ps I only count 13 splits!

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

If you stopped to "water the flowers" on mile 3 of your Saturday run, what were you doing on the second last mile? Fertilising them

TbL

Ps I only count 13 splits!

You know how it is at our age.;)

Stazza

Week 2 of 18 - General Prep Phase

Monday 1st September

a.m. 8 miles easy. Although a little tired, I enjoyed this run. As I came out of the Kerries and down Cockelshell Bay ‘Road’, the view of the estuary and the mountains reaffirmed my belief in the mighty one - Zeus.

p.m. 6 miles easy.

14

Tuesday 2nd September

a.m. 11 miles incl 8mins @ crest load – 5 mins jog – 8 mins at crest load – 5mins jog - 8 mins @ crest load - 5 mins jog – 6x33-35 secs uphill off jog back rec.

Great ‘little session’. Did the 8 min segments @ crest load in 5:44-5:43-5:53 (uphill). These worked nicely. Felt relaxed and controlled on each rep and although the pace on the final rep dropped because of a gentle uphill drag and, if I’m honest, lack of concentration, I’m pleased with how these went, especially given where I’m at right now.

Found the uphill strides very tough. Tried to focus on rhythm and form but the legs defo felt tired.

On the c/d, I knew I’d worked hard.

p.m. 4 miles shakeout. Pretty whacked and a shakeout was defo required. Afternoon nap interrupted – not very good for the desired HGH facilitation.

15

Wednesday 3rd September

a.m. 8 miles easy. Felt yesterday’s session in my legs and seemed to be working hard even at such a slow pace.

p.m. 6 miles easy. By the third mile everything was tickety-boo and I could tell that I’d recovered from yesterday.

14

Thursday 4th September

a.m. 11 miles incl 3x(6x200m off a jog back rec) 400m jog b/ween sets.

Extended these slightly on last week and cut the set recovery from 600m to 400m. They went well and I felt much better this week. Although, I was pretty pooped at the end of the workout – this is a deceptive workout: harder than it looks.

p.m. 6 miles progression. Well this turned out to be something of a surprise. Started out feeling like this was going to be a 4 mile shakeout but after a mile it developed into a progression. Was absolutely flying and felt like I could’ve kept going forever – no doubt I’ll be shafted for the next couple of days. But then today was meant to be a decent double day. Job done – well happy.

17

Friday 5th September

a.m. 8 miles recovery run. Bumped into the mighty one and he allowed me to run in his presence – the aura was overwhelming; felt dizzy when I got home.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Nice little saunter out and back along the canal.

Saturday 6th September

a.m. 8 miles easy. Nice run up around the Kerries. A little tired.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Felt fully recovered and a bit sprightly – picked up the pace over the final two miles.

14

Sunday 7th September

a.m. 16 miles. Bumped into the Mighty Man Himself ( he was heading out for a session of 4x1 mile – the splits that he sent through suggests a substantial breakthrough is on the cards). Did a few miles warm up with Himself and then headed off for a nice run. Enjoyed this morning’s run and actually put the foot down over the final 4 miles. No watch so no idea of the splits.

16

104 miles for the week with some good sessions. Really pleased with how the body is coping. Looking forward to next week…