The Running Master

menoscemo

Stazza wrote: »

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Tuesday 2nd September

a.m. 11 miles incl 8mins @ crest load – 5 mins jog – 8 mins at crest load – 5mins jog - 8 mins @ crest load - 5 mins jog – 6x33-35 secs uphill off jog back rec.

I'm pretty sure you are fully conscious of the fact that people read your log and get frustrated when they see terms like this. I mean I have certainly never heard of running at Crest Load and google shows nothing.... (btw if you added an explaination when throwing out these terms it might relieve people's frustration/annoyance but maybe that's not what you want?)

Go on so, I'll bite your hook. What's crest load?

Stazza

menoscemo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you are fully conscious of the fact that people read your log and get frustrated when they see terms like this. I mean I have certainly never heard of running at Crest Load and google shows nothing.... (btw if you added an explaination when throwing out these terms it might relieve people's frustration/annoyance but maybe that's not what you want?)

Go on so, I'll bite your hook. What's crest load?

There's no hook. It's basic stuff like fartlek and lactate threshold. Read some books.

dukeraoul

I just dropped a "crest load" in the toilet - can it be used that way?

Pacing Mule

Stazza wrote: »

There's no hook. It's basic stuff like fartlek and lactate threshold. Read some books.

Were these books you wrote yourself ?

Sacksian

Just to chip in.

When I'm thinking about training, I don't use or really understand any terms beyond those which I can relate to my own level of exertion but my take on "crest load" is that it's that pace where you're just tipping the needle on the exertion scale - beyond steady but on the easier side of the comfortably hard pace. It's a very enjoyable pace to run at!

John Kellogg used it in some of his letsrun expositions:

"Crest-load" running at an effort intensity slightly above (stronger than) the "ventilatory threshold" but not exceeding the "respiratory compensation point."

When operating at this effort level, you basically want to hold steady at as close to the respiratory compensation point as possible without surpassing it for more than two minutes at a time and if it is exceeded, the effort should remain constant and manageable at a strong pace rather than spiraling quickly into a state of discomfort.
...
Ideally, you'd accumulate 25-35 minutes of running at this kind of pace (about 8-12 seconds per mile faster than your theoretical "threshold" or "maximum steady state" pace) in a session, broken into segments of anywhere from 8 to 15 minutes and with rest periods between segments which are about 2-3 minutes long.

Normally, this pace is one which you could run for 39-45 minutes in a race, but you can also run a tad slower and do 4 x 10 minutes on, 2 minutes off or 2 x 20 minutes on, 3 minutes off. Or you can go a little quicker and reduce the segment lengths to 3 minutes with a recovery of 30-60 seconds. Go by feel. Do the first 10 minutes of running (out of a total of 25-35 minutes) a little easier, then find a strong, steady groove during the middle of the session. Start each segment when you feel ready to go again, but keep the pace such that the rests can remain short relative to the run periods. Finish faster if desired, but do not race it.

Stazza

Good man Sacksian.

menoscemo

Ok so I am obviously an idiot :rolleyes:

Having read these logs for years that's the first time I heard such a thing mentioned. I'll hold fire in future and ask the club captain all about it next time I'm up at Tallaght track...

Sacksian

Sorry, I wasn't saying that you (or anyone) should know that term. Personally, I don't think it's actually that important what term you use (I've read so many different explanations of what a "tempo" is), but it is useful to understand the different value of sessions at certain durations/exertion levels (and, more importantly, the context of those sessions in terms of your current fitness, training load, personal circumstances, etc and, most importantly, what you respond to).

I think the most important part of training is being sufficiently in tune with your body to be able to judge those different exertion levels at different times and what works best for you but that seems to come with time and experience. Lots of guys running similar times at various distances off completely different types of training.

Stazza

menoscemo wrote: »

Ok so I am obviously an idiot :rolleyes:

Having read these logs for years that's the first time I heard such a thing mentioned. I'll hold fire in future and ask the club captain all about it next time I'm up at Tallaght track...

Might be better asking the club captain of Bros. Pearce [sp?];)

theboyblunder

Stazza wrote: »

Might be better asking the club captain of Bros. Pearce [sp?];)

Am I going to have to challenge this one to shut him up as well? Id say you'd fold even faster than drquirky did.

Stazza

theboyblunder wrote: »

Am I going to have to challenge this one to shut him up as well? Id say you'd fold even faster than drquirky did.

I think you've misread the subtext: TBB - club captain - is the 'go-to-man'. Didn't you once say you were a bit of a running geek.;)

theboyblunder

Stazza wrote: »

I think you've misread the subtext: TBB - club captain - is the 'go-to-man'. Didn't you once say you were a bit of a running geek.;)

Haha ok my apologies! Sensitised to criticism of the sisters now!

Im a bit of a running geek alright but no guru

DarByrne1980

Just found this log stazza when I was lookinh for the tralee marathon. Like you I'm runing it next yr but don't think I'll be going as fast as you. I've read back a few pages and it looks like you have a big build up of 18 weeks b4 u do the marathon stuff. Do ya do any races in this 18 weeks and if so what distance. If not are you running the chance of having negative edging effects.

Stazza

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

Just found this log stazza when I was lookinh for the tralee marathon. Like you I'm runing it next yr but don't think I'll be going as fast as you. I've read back a few pages and it looks like you have a big build up of 18 weeks b4 u do the marathon stuff. Do ya do any races in this 18 weeks and if so what distance. If not are you running the chance of having negative edging effects.

Hey Dar - great that you'll be running Tralee. Don't know how fast/slow I'll be going; I know how fast I'd like to go...

It's a good point about the long build up and it's something I've thought a lot about. But a good part of the build up is just about getting back into shape after having the month of July off (niggles and holiday) and putting on nearly a stone. Also, I'll be 50 in January and racing takes a lot out of me. I think that's more to do with how long I was out of the sport and how poor my 'general conditioning' is.

I've broken the 18 weeks down into 6*3 week blocks. The idea being that I get progressively stronger and improve my lactate threshold. After this week I'll have done one block. The following 3 blocks will be where the bulk of the work is and then after that I'll be doing a bit of sharpening work before transitioning into the more specific work. At the end of the sharpening block I intend to race. I'll probably do a 5k and a 10k. The 10k will be part of a double day session. I'll also be doing a 10 miler during the specific block but again, that'll be a double session day.

In a nutshell, the idea is to get back to some decent fitness, sharpen up, and then go specific.

With the guys and gals I coach, I wouldn't advocate the sort of build up I'm doing. It would be more of a 12 week general prep phase and then, depending on the runner, into a 6-10 week specific phase.

How are you approaching the race and what sort of time are you looking for?

DarByrne1980

ah I havent a bog to b honest. I never ran a race more than 5 miles and was off the running scene for a bit and lashed on da weight. After 2 hard years losing de flab I am nearly back on track and am just reading some books and reading lots of logs and other internet stuff. I will do a few races, maybe half marathons to give me an idea. Just wonderin. why would ya do the races in double days? whats da thinkin behind that?

W.B. Yeats

theboyblunder wrote: »

Haha ok my apologies! Sensitised to criticism of the sisters now!

Im a bit of a running geek alright but no guru

Don't mind this one, he's an absolute geek (both running and otherwise) and also a bit of a guru. He's busy leading the brothers and sisters to greater things on the roads while also being a very decent sort.

Stazza

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

ah I havent a bog to b honest. I never ran a race more than 5 miles and was off the running scene for a bit and lashed on da weight. After 2 hard years losing de flab I am nearly back on track and am just reading some books and reading lots of logs and other internet stuff. I will do a few races, maybe half marathons to give me an idea. Just wonderin. why would ya do the races in double days? whats da thinkin behind that?

Well done on shedding the poundage – it takes a lot of discipline and hard work.

The idea of racing on double days is to have breakfast and be fully stocked up on glycogen and then race, which will result in a decent reduction in muscle glycogen. Then, maintain low glycogen levels by limiting calorie intake before heading out for a second session that will be slightly faster than mp and about 13 miles in total volume – but only about 6-7 miles in and around mp.

This teaches the body to access fat @ mp when glycogen stores are limited. After the second session, the idea is to bang in the carbs and protein to sort out glycogen and protein synthesis.

It’s a bit like banging out mp miles at the end of long runs or starting out at mp and bonking so that the body makes the necessary adaptations and then the next time you start out in and around mp, you can go further. It’s pretty common practice. You’ll see that I’m already preparing for these sessions with my Thursday workouts.

Edit - I wouldn't advise or suggest you do anything like this.

DarByrne1980

Ah rite. I guess you're race time will suffer though. I find the science of the marathon stuff very hard to understand. I only ever really ran track and wasn't as complicated as what I read for the maraton.

Yes hard to loose the weight but have lost 3 stone in 2 years and have another 2 to go.

Stazza

Week 3 of 18 - General Prep. Phase

Monday 8th September

a.m. 8 miles easy with Himself. Nice little pootle up around the Kerries and out along the canal.

p.m. 6 miles easy. Picked it up over the final 2 miles – nothing exciting just wanted to stretch the legs.

14
Tuesday 9th September

a.m. 11 miles, incl 8 mins @ crest load effort – 5 mins easy – 8 mins @ crest load – 5 mins easy – 8 mins @ crest load – 5 mins easy – 6x35 sec uphill.

The idea was to run the 8 min reps @ crest load and check the watch after. Here’s how they went 5:36; 5:35; 5:46 (uphill drag). This was a big improvement on last week – 23 secs all told – but I think I was probably going faster than crest load pace/effort. All the same, things are improving. The 6x35 sec uphill was a bit of a grind and concentration wasn’t too good.

p.m. 4 miles shakeout. Legs felt heavy.

15
Wednesday 10th September

a.m. 8 miles easy. Felt sprightly enough considering yesterday’s session.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed/steady. Meant to run this easy but the legs wanted to go so I let them have a bit of a spin. Hopefully they won’t be suffering in the morning…

14.
Thursday 11th September

a.m. 11 miles, incl 3x(6x200m+ off jog back rec) 400m jog b/ween sets. Same as last week. Felt sharp and pleased to get in another decent session of aerobic strides.

p.m. 7 miles with a moderate progression starting out @ 8:30 and working down to 5:50; plus a 60 sec sharpener @ 5 min pace to reinforce the neuralocitinessification of the aerobic strides from this morning’s session.

18
Friday 12th September

a.m. 8 miles easy with Paddy the Kenyan.

p.m. 6 miles easy

14
Saturday 13th September

a.m. 16 miles easy in the autumnal sunshine. Picked it up a little over the final two miles or so. Nothing spectacular – just enough to pay thanks to Zeus… you know, for the sunshine and all that. Had planned on doing this tomorrow but circumstances meant that I had to get it done today. I just love this time of year: brings to mind Keats’, Ode To Autumn and the ‘conspiring sun.’

16
Sunday 14th September

a.m. 8 miles easy in the early morning mist. Fandabidozi. For some strange reason Bobby Womack’s immortal words, “Let me kiss it where it hurts,” occupied a small portion of my mind.

p.m. 6 miles easy to round off another satisfying week.
14

105 miles for the week with a couple of juicy fruits in there. Bring on next week…

barryoneill50

Stazza, how much of a gap do you leave between your am/pm runs? Does it depend on the type of run? Maybe the amount of stress you want to impose on the legs?

pa4

What will your long run peak at? That's some weeks training I'd be fcked after that :pac: Did 58 miles this week (my most ever) and I struggled today for the long run!!

Ososlo

pa4 wrote: »

What will your long run peak at? That's some weeks training I'd be fcked after that :pac: Did 58 miles this week (my most ever) and I struggled today for the long run!!

And he's like 4 times your age:D

pa4

Ososlo wrote: »

And he's like 4 times your age:D

I know it's ridiculous! And I have to do 8 miles in the morning since I wont have time tomorrow evening

thewolf_ie

Good stuff!

W.B. Yeats

I like it Stazza- over 100 miles; this programme of yours will fill your "fruit with ripeness to the core". (Let us disregard the allegory to death in stanza 3)

Stazza

barryoneill50 wrote: »

Stazza, how much of a gap do you leave between your am/pm runs? Does it depend on the type of run? Maybe the amount of stress you want to impose on the legs?

I normally do my morning runs at 09:30 and my evening runs about 6:30. I think the key is getting in enough recovery. I'm lucky in that I 'work' from home. I take an hour nap everyday at 1 p.m.. My nutrition is on the button (apart from the odd lapse in the evening when the sugar cravings attack) and I think that helps a lot. Also, AIS is massive. AIS, nutrition, and naps are key. Also I don't hammer my easy runs - I run by feel. Sometimes my easy runs will be 8:30 pace sometimes 6:30. More recently, the pace of my easy runs has picked up and I'm finding my easy runs tend to be progression runs that start at 8:00 pace and drop down to 5:30-6:00 pace.

Unfortunately, I think all this will change next year: I'm working on a big project that will change how athletics/distance running works within certain demographics across the globe. I'd love to launch the pilot here but I fear it may have to be launched in the UK/The US because of 'The rood of rock' attitude that exists in Ireland. It's a real shame as it would present great opportunities for some of Ireland's mid- top end distance runners, therapists, coaches, and more importantly, up and coming 'talent' that hasn't been blemished by the current system. But we'll see...

Stazza

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

I like it Stazza- over 100 miles; this programme of yours will fill your "fruit with ripeness to the core". (Let us disregard the allegory to death in stanza 3)

I bet my latest post has got your little brain tinkling:D

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

What will your long run peak at? That's some weeks training I'd be fcked after that :pac: Did 58 miles this week (my most ever) and I struggled today for the long run!!

Probably 24. But that will not be until next year. From now until the end of the year the long runs will just stay b/ween 16 and 20. Stop all the clubbing and chasing the tail and get some sleep and then you'll be able to do more miles. On second thoughts, I'd change places with ya:pac::pac:

Stazza

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

I like it Stazza- over 100 miles; this programme of yours will fill your "fruit with ripeness to the core". (Let us disregard the allegory to death in stanza 3)

But isn't the transience of life part of the permanence of nature? Didn't Keats find the answer to the Nightingale and the Urn in Autumn. Death is part of the on-going cycle of life.

W.B. Yeats

Stazza wrote: »

I bet my latest post has got your little brain tinkling:D

"And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew
That one small head could carry all he knew"

Stazza wrote: »

But isn't the transience of life part of the permanence of nature? Didn't Keats find the answer to the Nightingale and the Urn in Autumn. Death is part of the on-going cycle of life.

I love it- but you're stretching me now I told you I am a dilettante- only a passing, superficial knowledge of such things. However I do know that the learning about the cycle of life and carbon cycle is much less interesting than the poetry of Keats