The Running Master

ecoli

For the sake of training talk and debate

Stazza wrote: »

PtK’s development was built on a Boy Scout Lydiard base (I hate Lydiard but he’s great for beginners like PtK)

What exactly do you hate about Lydiard theory and why do you feel it works great for beginners (given your fondness of doubles it may be seen as slightly contradictory)

Stazza wrote: »

PtK’s development was built on a Boy Scout Lydiard base (I hate Lydiard but he’s great for beginners like PtK) into a moderated/watered down Canova marathon specific approach (effectively an extended base)

With regards your modified Canova approach, what exactly did you modify and why? With the basis of many of Canova's training principles built on the fact that majority of the athletes he works with have years of an aerobic engine built up before applying this style of training what was the logic which brought you to the conclusion that the benefits outweighed the risks? In using the marathon specific work without a global phase do you feel the aerobic foundation was compromised to some extent?

Stazza wrote: »

No long run - go figure.

Given that he was coming off A Lydiard/ Canova style approach in the early stages of training and using a tempo as maintenance kinda mutes this point to some extent. This is based on the athletes individualised background (especially as IIRC you had mentioned before that he had come off the background of a few years in around the 3.30 marathon background.

Stazza wrote: »

The weekly sessions revolved around 5x800m off 2 mins jog – 4x1mile 0ff 90 sec jog rec and 3x2miles off 2 mins (We only used this session twice because of races). So that’s a 3k pace session, a 5k pace session, and a 10k pace session with a 10mile/half marathon pace 22 min tempo providing the aerobic maintenance.

An interesting point here given that he was in 10k training it seems a little unusual to have so little race pace specific work, with that in mind would the fact that he raced a number of 10ks in this period not lend to the assumption that the races themselves were a pivotal catalyst to the 10k race? or would you feel that with more 10k specific paced work he may have had the potential to see even more improvement than he did (I know he exceeded even your own seasonal targets from him of 33.30)

Stazza wrote: »

Working off one ‘real’ session a week allows plenty of time for recovery and adaptation and doesn’t follow what most people are doing. Most people tend to do a long run, a tempo (too fast), a session, and do their other runs too fast; they also race way too much and that’s why they don’t make the big improvements: they are withdrawing from funds they don’t have. Pretty simple really.

I think here it is probably a case of again individualisation

In terms of approach as PtK's results have shown it can produce results but what is the difference in a person making a one min PB over the course of a season racing a handful of races at the end of the season when in peak shape compared to an athlete taking the same amount of time off racing every 4-6 weeks chipping away.

It takes a alot of faith and patience in the long terms seasonal approach that not everyone by nature has, compare that to an athlete who uses races as markers to positive reinforcement, nothing wrong with either approach, just comes down to individualisation. Plenty of ways to skin a cat and if the last decade has shown anything it's that training approaches have started to come around to this way of thinking at the very highest level.

Doc Q the 5th

Stazza wrote: »

Today Jake ran 2:21 at Chicago - that's a good bit faster than you're gonna run in Frankfurt, although, even with all your vitriol and begrudgery I still hope you run well. Later in the year he's hoping to go 2:17 - he'll be using some of my modified Canova sessions. Because I'm advising Jake and Paddy the Kenyan (PtK is now 1 min and 40 secs faster than you over 10k, from the so called spoof training as opposed to your 'endless season'), you shouldn't let it get to you - it's no big deal. Relax a bit Billy. You're hating too much and it aint good for you or anybody around you. You're not winding me up or anything so stop wasting your time. At first you amused me. More recently I've found you boring. Now, well, I pity you. Concentrate on your own running and your own life and maybe you'll see some improvements in both your running and your life. Good luck lad. And best wishes for Frankfurt.

Ha yeah- obviously I am getting to you if you have to resort to such belittling/ condescending commentary on my running/ life.

The difference between you and me Stazzas is that while I may come off as a vitriolic dickhead I've never once pretended to be better than anyone else here or had all the answers. If you read my log i'm pretty upfront about what I do well and what I struggle with. Your log is full of grandiose claims, undubstansiated hyperbole and good ole' fashion bragging.

Tbh Stazza as I said before I would actually ignore you completely if you weren't going around here trying to pass yourself off as a guru- I just think it's wrong/ unfair and people from around my way have always disliked a snake oil salesman.

I can only guess the references you make to "improving my life" have something to do w/ the stuff I share on my log regarding my own particular struggle at times w/ mental health (seeing as that is pretty much the only personal stuff I share), I appreciate your advise in the matter but just to let you know I'm doing just fine. I don't pretend to know anything about you personally Stazza so I keep my ire for your online persona - by all means rip on my running I'm a big boy, I can take it - make fun of how I conduct myself online as well but don't for one second think you know the first thing about what I "need to improve" in my real life.

Oh and thanks for the pity- I have no such feelings towards you- I just feel you've come off as a cocky d- bag around here from the start and I've been pretty consistent in calling it out.

Have a nice day and FairPlay to both your charges Jake and Ptk for running good times.

Oh and your "system is there is no system" quote- that is nearly directly clipped from a very recent article about Mark Whetmore posted on let's run lol

ThePiedPiper

Well said Doc. This is why I love boards.

pconn062

Mod/

Ok guys, we usually don't intervene in the logs but this is getting way too personal, let's tone is down a little. A bit of healthy debate on training systems is welcome but it doesn't need to resort to personal attacks.

/Mod

Stazza

Lads- Thanks for all the interest in my log. It gives me a warm feeling to know that when I sit down to craft these masterpieces that my public respond with such passion. And to all my loyal readers beyond the clique on here and out 'there' reading, I will continue to entertain and inform.

But for now, I'll let the results of the people I help speak for themselves.

Zeus bless you all and stay safe.

ThePiedPiper

I'll give you one thing Stazza, your log definitely is very entertaining. A masterpiece possibly, of what though?!

Stazza

RunForestRun wrote: »

I'll give you one thing Stazza, your log definitely is very entertaining. A masterpiece possibly, of what though?!

If I were to tell you, it would spoil all the fun...

ecoli

Sorry for derailing further (last time I swear)

Just a caveat for anyone looking at that last post from Stazza regarding PtK's overview. The long run aspect stuck on my mind and given there are some relatively new runners who may be watching the posts the context is somewhat misleading by saying no long runs when you take into account the below statement

Stazza wrote: »

Paddy the Kenyan hasn’t missed a long run since he started training for Tralee in mid October: that’s 17-24 miles every weekend without fail for 5 months.

All in all underneath everything there is a simple and effective formula which has been used for years

- Build a base
- Consistent training
- Add various stimulus when the aerobic foundation is sufficient
- Have training long term progressive
- Recovery is as important as training

Dressed up any which way its a proven formula and is the basis sensible training, not always applied but simple none the less and I think thats the biggest thing to be taken from it.

Running doesn't have to be overcomplicated. It is a simple sport when you break it down

Stazza

ecoli wrote: »

Sorry for derailing further (last time I swear)

Just a caveat for anyone looking at that last post from Stazza regarding PtK's overview. The long run aspect stuck on my mind and given there are some relatively new runners who may be watching the posts the context is somewhat misleading by saying no long runs when you take into account the below statement



All in all underneath everything there is a simple and effective formula which has been used for years

- Build a base
- Consistent training
- Add various stimulus when the aerobic foundation is sufficient
- Have training long term progressive
- Recovery is as important as training

Dressed up any which way its a proven formula and is the basis sensible training, not always applied but simple none the less and I think thats the biggest thing to be taken from it.

Running doesn't have to be overcomplicated. It is a simple sport when you break it down

ecoli, I'll respond to your earlier post and this one later - just haven't had time. But for now, sure the long run was used for the marathon training - - I should have made that clear- but since March he hasn't done a long run.

Stazza

ecoli wrote: »

Sorry for derailing further (last time I swear)

Just a caveat for anyone looking at that last post from Stazza regarding PtK's overview. The long run aspect stuck on my mind and given there are some relatively new runners who may be watching the posts the context is somewhat misleading by saying no long runs when you take into account the below statement



All in all underneath everything there is a simple and effective formula which has been used for years

- Build a base
- Consistent training
- Add various stimulus when the aerobic foundation is sufficient
- Have training long term progressive
- Recovery is as important as training

Dressed up any which way its a proven formula and is the basis sensible training, not always applied but simple none the less and I think thats the biggest thing to be taken from it.

Running doesn't have to be overcomplicated. It is a simple sport when you break it down

After the base, we moved into a well thought out multi-pace system. One session a week with rucks of recovery. We also had a genuine(ish) LT run of 22 mins each week and as we moved on, we replaced the 22 min LT run with 3x8 mins off 2 mins at Crest Load. But the real work was the weekly session. No long run - go figure.

I think this clearly shows that the 'No long run - go figure' phrase clearly relates to the training after the marathon and that it was disingenuous of you to try and state otherwise. If you really have the interests of the 'relatively new runners who may be watching' then I think you should have the good grace to apologise for misquoting me and taking my words out context to fit some tedious plot to discredit me. Then, when you've done this, I'll reply to your first post - I think you might a) be interested in what I have to say and b) might learn something. Your call...

Doc Q the 5th

Stazza wrote: »

After the base, we moved into a well thought out multi-pace system. One session a week with rucks of recovery. We also had a genuine(ish) LT run of 22 mins each week and as we moved on, we replaced the 22 min LT run with 3x8 mins off 2 mins at Crest Load. But the real work was the weekly session. No long run - go figure.

I think this clearly shows that the 'No long run - go figure' phrase clearly relates to the training after the marathon and that it was disingenuous of you to try and state otherwise. If you really have the interests of the 'relatively new runners who may be watching' then I think you should have the good grace to apologise for misquoting me and taking my words out context to fit some tedious plot to discredit me. Then, when you've done this, I'll reply to your first post - I think you might a) be interested in what I have to say and b) might learn something. Your call...

Post reported.

Stazza

Doc Q the 5th wrote: »

Post reported.

I appreciate you telling me and, respect to you. But why did you report it?

AuldManKing

Stazza wrote: »

I think this clearly shows that the 'No long run - go figure' phrase clearly relates to the training after the marathon and that it was disingenuous of you to try and state otherwise. If you really have the interests of the 'relatively new runners who may be watching' then I think you should have the good grace to apologise for misquoting me and taking my words out context to fit some tedious plot to discredit me. Then, when you've done this, I'll reply to your first post - I think you might a) be interested in what I have to say and b) might learn something. Your call...

I don't think ecoli has a disingenuous bone in his body and has done so much and given so much of his time for the overall running community on Boards while being relatively apolitical about it.

pistol_75

Guys the blatant tag teaming from a certain section is getting a bit tit for tat at this stage (not referring to you AMK). I'm sure Ecoli is able to answer anything directed to him or deal with the post in a manner as he sees fit.

There was even someone posting here yesterday who has the owner of the log on his block list, and thus can't see his replies. Absolutely pointless.

Pretty ironic the person reporting the post given the past few weeks :rolleyes:

Doc Q the 5th

Stazza wrote: »

I appreciate you telling me and, respect to you. But why did you report it?

Because it pissed me off so much it reporting it was the only thing I could think of to do that wouldn't get me banned. DB

DarByrne1980

this log seem to annoy some of you you do know you do not have to read it or visit it read someone elses that does not annoy you

Stazza

AuldManKing wrote: »

I don't think ecoli has a disingenuous bone in his body and has done so much and given so much of his time for the overall running community on Boards while being relatively apolitical about it.

AMK, I'm not doubting what you have to say - maybe it was a genuine mistake. But ecoli's a pretty bright guy and he's gone well out of his way on this point - he even said so. It's crystal clear that the point refers to after the marathon. I even 'apologised' for not making that point clear. But then when I read what I'd posted and saw it was crystal clear, I thought, hold on what on earth's he on about. My eyesight ain't the best these days, you know with my age and all that, but you'd have to be blind not see what's going on. And lads, it won't work. (AMK, I'm not incl you in the lads bit etc). If I've got it wrong, I can assure you, I'm man enough to apologise...

Ososlo

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

this log seem to annoy some of you you do know you do not have to read it or visit it read someone elses that does not annoy you

That's what I just don't understand. It's just so easy!!!! IGNORE!!!!!!!!
None of you need to be worried about all us inexperienced runners being brainwashed by STAZZAAAAAAA, The Guru, Our Leader! IN STAZZA WE TRUST (all bow your heads).
We are all thinking adults who chose this 'Stazza path':p so just leave it be ffs!!!!!
We are not worthy oh My Master:rolleyes:

Stazza

Doc Q the 5th wrote: »

Because it pissed me off so much it reporting it was the only thing I could think of to do that wouldn't get me banned. DB

Again, that's fair enough. Does that mean that if a post piss3s somebody off they should just report it? Not my style but like I said, respect to you for being a man about it and not hiding away.

Sorry it piss3d you off but I have to defend myself against what appears to be a blatant attempt to discredit me and make me leave - it ain't happening...

The Running Master

nobody told me

You would swear some of the people that post about hating this log own boards. You don't like something don't read it it's as simple as that, and don't come out with sh1te like I'm only looking out for other runners. If people want to be trained by stazza they can let them it might work it might not but in the long run if you pardon the pun it's no skin of anyone's nose. This is bullying, simple has.

Ososlo

nobody told me wrote: »

You would swear some of the people that post about hating this log own boards. You don't like something don't read it it's as simple as that, and don't come out with sh1te like I'm only looking out for other runners. If people want to be trained by stazza they can let them it might work it might not but in the long run if you pardon the pun it's skin of anyone's nose. This is bullying, simple as.

finally someone said it.

Stazza

nobody told me wrote: »

You would swear some of the people that post about hating this log own boards. You don't like something don't read it it's as simple as that, and don't come out with sh1te like I'm only looking out for other runners. If people want to be trained by stazza they can let them it might work it might not but in the long run if you pardon the pun it's skin of anyone's nose. This is bullying, simple as.

Attempted bullying that isn't working. But I agree with what you are saying and thanks for the support. Kudos.

The Running Master

barryoneill50

nobody told me wrote: »

You would swear some of the people that post about hating this log own boards. You don't like something don't read it it's as simple as that, and don't come out with sh1te like I'm only looking out for other runners. If people want to be trained by stazza they can let them it might work it might not but in the long run if you pardon the pun it's no skin of anyone's nose. This is bullying, simple has.

Here here, well said

wowzer

Haters gonna hate so leave them to it.

dublin runner

Bullying? Come on. That's too strong a word.

How about we all meet in McGrattans after the marathon and settle this once and for all?!

In one way this is keeping me very entertained in work but in an other way it is the reason why some people are turned off boards. That is not directed at anyone in particular. It's a collective thing. The whole thing is simply unnecessary.

Discussion and debate is great to have but it has gotten way too personal. Once again, directed at no one in particular.

conavitzky

dublin runner wrote: »

Bullying? Come on. That's too strong a word.

How about we all meet in McGrattans after the marathon and settle this once and for all?!

In one way this is keeping me very entertained in work but in an other way it is the reason why some people are turned off boards. That is not directed at anyone in particular. It's a collective thing. The whole thing is simply unnecessary.

Discussion and debate is great to have but it has gotten way too personal. Once again, directed at no one in particular.

I am visualising a fight on waste ground ala news teams on anchorman movie

nobody told me

It is bullying as far as I'm concerned, but like you say hopefully a line is drawn inthe sand from here on in.

Ososlo

conavitzky wrote: »

I am visualising a fight on waste ground ala news teams on anchorman movie

Fitzwilliam Lane at 2pm?
I can throw a mean punch... for a girl:)

Doc Q the 5th

I'm taking my leave from this log but I can assure you people throwing out terms like "bullying" sure as **** ain't the reason why.

Here's an old playground proposal Staz- you ignore my posts I ignore yours...

Capice?

wowzer

dublin runner wrote: »

Bullying? Come on. That's too strong a word.

How about we all meet in McGrattans after the marathon and settle this once and for all?!

In one way this is keeping me very entertained in work but in an other way it is the reason why some people are turned off boards. That is not directed at anyone in particular. It's a collective thing. The whole thing is simply unnecessary.

Discussion and debate is great to have but it has gotten way too personal. Once again, directed at no one in particular.

Maybe bullying is too strong a word to use but there is definitely some sort of witch hunt going on.