The Running Master

Stazza

theboyblunder wrote: »

Actually, for TRR, that was remarkably restrained and respectful

Id have similar questions - whats special about 2:50? Sounds a bit arbitrary to me? Id say people like Daniels and Pfitzinger know a thing or two about the marathon, especially Pfitzinger.

If you are more qualified (and you clearly reckon you are), and are willing to share it with us and make us all faster, i'm absolutely delighted, but if you want people on here to take advice seriously I suspect that you need to give us a clue as to your credentials. Verifiable credentials.

If you want people to enjoy your log as a collection of amusing anecdotes, then you dont.

I've thanked TRR for his restraint.

Your 2:50 question is a great question and you may be surprised to realise, 2:50 isn't arbitrary. In good time, I'll get there. But yes, of course, I don't mean 2:50 to the split second. In and around that area (lets say 60 secs).

I agree wholeheartedly about Daniels and Pfitzinger. That said, there are major flaws in both of their systems. Again, I'll get round to those in good time. And just so I don't have to do this with every 'great' coach etc, I'll be looking at most of the major coaches and their systems. Like I said, I want this to be a forum for learning etc. What I hope is that I can furnish people with the tools so that they can help themselves. But, as TRR pointed out, not that many people read the fora, never mind my log. But we'll see.

Again, no running specific qualifications, so I don't reckon I'm more qualified that the two aforementioned chaps you mentioned.

Thanks for taking an interest and I will address your 2:50 question in good time.

theboyblunder

Stazza wrote: »

Thanks for taking an interest and I will address your 2:50 question in good time.

Dont take too long please. My pb is 2:49

Stazza

theboyblunder wrote: »

Dont take too long please. My pb is 2:49

I know. But sure you'll be fine - you're under 2:50:)

Stazza

Now that all that's out of the way, I'll begin. Ran in the Killarney 5k race today - beaten in a sprint finish. I suppose younger legs are always going to get the better of me in a sprint finish. Gave it my best. Ho hum.

Weather was wicked and we got there late so not much time for a warm up. On the way out, the wind and hail and rain were head on. Really tough going. Didn't notice the wind on my back on the way in. Always the way. Don't know the times yet. The clock at the finish line was screwed and I didn't stop my Garmin. But I'm not happy about losing in a sprint finish. If it happens again, I might just have to give up or lock my 11 yr old daughter in the shed. Bad form to out sprint your old fella:)

With half-baked w/u and short c/d 5 miles.

morceli

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more questions on your logs since that epic post. Just a few questions
What made you leave the sport? What do you think you could have done has you not packed it in.
What approach would you advocate on a return . Pure base miles mix of base strides or speed.
Are you taking anything while writing these posts mushrooms or crack?
Is 5k your best distance.
Would you go head to head with Mick over 5k

pa4

What sort of time do you reckon you could do for a 5k at the moment?

Stazza

morceli wrote: »

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more questions on your logs since that epic post. Just a few questions
What made you leave the sport? What do you think you could have done has you not packed it in.
What approach would you advocate on a return . Pure base miles mix of base strides or speed.
Are you taking anything while writing these posts mushrooms or crack?
Is 5k your best distance.
Would you go head to head with Mick over 5k

Haha! They are great questions, especially the last one.

I'll have a crack at answering them:

I jacked the sport in my late teens (I think) because of a few things: a girl, an injury, and boxing. I always prefered boxing over running - just wasn't a good enough boxer. Getting it handed to you in boxing's a bit different to getting out sprinted. Then when I realised I wasn't good enough to cut it in the boxing world, I went on the booze and smokes and played soccer etc.

I ran 14:53 for 5000m when I was 19 and went under 15 a few times. Although I'm Irish (with an English accent - moved to England when I was young) I ran in the English schools cross country and track and field. I ran in the English schools track 3000m final in Yeovil in 1981 and finished 13th out of 14; Adrian Passey nearly lapped me:) Funny you ask what I could've done - defo not a great runner or anything, but I messed around when I was young, so it's difficult to tell. I ran under 4:00 for 1500m - many times. I think my best was 3:52 but I can't say for sure - I normally make it up and say 3:57, but I think the first time is closer.

The return to running's a good one too. I'd need to think about that. Gut answer is miles and strides. My first comeback (1999-2000) I did 8 months of building up to 60 miles a week and then added in multi pace training. Although I ran 33:17 for 10k I wouldn't recommend this approach. This time I built up from 0.5 miles a day to 100 miles a week over a 10 month period. During the second year I added in strides and AT runs and some LT stuff. It's odd, but I find 110 mpw with a LT session and an AT session in a week easy. I think this is because I have time to recover and my nutrition is pretty good. The real test will be in May when I add the stuff that'll take me from around 16-16-15 down to 15XX:) This does concern me. Not sure if the old body will cope with hard reps on the track but there's only one way to find out. If I can't handle them, then I might have to move up to the marathon quicker than I'd like. If I can handle them, well, the world better watch out:D

I'm not taking anything - unless the old lady's dropping something in my granola. It's clear that a lot of people don't get me - that's ok. I look at life as something you've got to enjoy and have a giggle about. I'm really not a serious person and in real life I joke and mess around too - it does my wife's head-in. I'm not the big head that some might think - I'm messing most of the time:D But I'm serious about the running. I'm not running 100-110 mpw for fun, that's for sure.

I'm not sure on the 5k question - if my body can handle the intensity of the training then yes. If not, I know I can bang out a reasonable marathon, even at my age. But I'd really like to go after the 5k - I like the intense pain rather than the long incessant nagging will this ever end type of ache that comes with the distance stuff.

On the Mick question, I don't know Mick. I'm sure he's a great bloke etc. One thing's for sure, he's a great athlete - I've been reading up on him. Hiya Mick! I don't really know that many people in Ireland. I've been back 6 years and I've only just started racing again recently. But yeah, if I'm in the right sort of shape I'd go head to head with anybody. I didn't set out with the intention of going after his record - I was looking at Martin Rees' 50+ record; if I don't move up to the marathon, then that's the real goal. I think it'd be a great idea to get some codgers together, put down some coin, and winner takes all - only if I'm fit though:)

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

What sort of time do you reckon you could do for a 5k at the moment?

If you asked me that in November, I'd have said in and around 16, and that's off no real speed work - just miles, strides, AT and LT stuff.

Today, I really don't know. I think if I were to go for it my leg would give way as I'm on the mend, also I'm trying to shed about 8lbs. If my leg held up, 17:20 ish. Come the end of April I want to be in 16 shape before I start hitting the track. If that goes to plan and my body copes with the training, I think that I'll run low 15. This, however, is unlikely. I suspect something will go wrong. If it's nothing major, I'll get down to 15:21 - 15:40.

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

If you asked me that in November, I'd have said in and around 16, and that's off no real speed work - just miles, strides, AT and LT stuff.

Today, I really don't know. I think if I were to go for it my leg would give way as I'm on the mend, also I'm trying to shed about 8lbs. If my leg held up, 17:20 ish. Come the end of April I want to be in 16 shape before I start hitting the track. If that goes to plan and my body copes with the training, I think that I'll run low 15. This, however, is unlikely. I suspect something will go wrong. If it's nothing major, I'll get down to 15:21 - 15:40.

Are you going to run track? I hope to get down to around 15:40 for the 5k this year myself. The 3k I did last week was 15:40 pace so I'd have to keep that going for another 2k, hopefully by the summer I'll be in that sort of shape!

Stazza

I'd like to do track but it doesn't seem that great around Kerry, which is a shame. I will train on the track and if I get the chance I'll race on the track too. But it's more likely that I'll be racing on the roads. I'll need to do a couple of 1500m's and a couple of 3k's too ; not sure I'll get the chance though.

From what I've read of your log, you're selling yourself short. You were in or around 9:15 I think - you'll go sub 15:30. If you adopt a modified Multi-pace schedule from May/June through Aug, you'll run sub 15:30 easily. You'll go about 8:45 for 3000m and somewhere around 15:20-15:30 depending on a number of things. Also, it depends on injuries etc. If I were in 9:15 shape now, I'd be looking to go very close to 15 by August. My only concern would be burnout. If you want, I'll have a look and give you my 'honest' opinion based on what you're doing etc (in private or on your log). When Jake comes on here, he'll tell you that you get it as it is from me - no politeness etc.

---

I'll post Jake's schedule etc tonight and I'll post my thoughts too. Please, if you have any thoughts bang them up. The more the merrier.

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

I'd like to do track but it doesn't seem that great around Kerry, which is a shame. I will train on the track and if I get the chance I'll race on the track too. But it's more likely that I'll be racing on the roads. I'll need to do a couple of 1500m's and a couple of 3k's too ; not sure I'll get the chance though.

From what I've read of your log, you're selling yourself short. You were in or around 9:15 I think - you'll go sub 15:30. If you adopt a modified Multi-pace schedule from May/June through Aug, you'll run sub 15:30 easily. You'll go about 8:45 for 3000m and somewhere around 15:20-15:30 depending on a number of things. Also, it depends on injuries etc. If I were in 9:15 shape now, I'd be looking to go very close to 15 by August. My only concern would be burnout. If you want, I'll have a look and give you my 'honest' opinion based on what you're doing etc (in private or on your log). When Jake comes on here, he'll tell you that you get it as it is from me - no politeness etc.

I'm definitely going to try to get the best out of myself. Whats a multi-pace schedule? That'd be great getting someone elses opinion on my training, you can do it on my log if you want it might help other people too. Thanks Stazza!

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

I'm definitely going to try to get the best out of myself. Whats a multi-pace schedule? That'd be great getting someone elses opinion on my training, you can do it on my log if you want it might help other people too. Thanks Stazza!

Give me a couple of days and I'll have a good look and let you know what I think.

Just some quick questions: what is your goal for this summer, the 1500m, 3k, 5k? How old are you? Are you working/student? What's your sleep like? What's your nutrition like? I'll probably have a lot more questions - these are just to help me while I read your log.

Like I said, give us a few days and I'll let you know what I think...

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

Give me a couple of days and I'll have a good look and let you know what I think.

Just some quick questions: what is your goal for this summer, the 1500m, 3k, 5k? How old are you? Are you working/student? What's your sleep like? What's your nutrition like? I'll probably have a lot more questions - these are just to help me while I read your log.

Like I said, give us a few days and I'll let you know what I think...

Main goals would be to run some good times for the 1500 and 5k, as I said I'd like to run as close to 15:40 or even faster. I reckon I could get sub 4:10 for the 1500 too come the summer. I'm 21 as of last week and I'm a student but I'll be going on work placement in February so I'll be working full time. I find I run better when I'm working/in college because I'm more routined. Thanks Stazza

Stazza

The Stazza System Part 1

Jake Krong - Breaking 2:17 for the marathon

Jake’s primary goal this year is to break 2:17 and qualify for the US Olympic Marathon Trials. His pb’s are: Mile: 4:19; 5k:15:08; 10k:30:03; HM:1:05:45; Marathon:2:20:41.

The pb’s/pr’s reveal some intriguing information and opportunities. On the surface, the opportunities jump off the page. At a glance, his 10k, half, and full, read like a calculator that predicts times – everything falls into place. Also, his 5k time screams, ‘here I am – come slap me about.’

But if we step away and begin to think about things, all’s not as it seems. If Jake were to focus specifically on the marathon over a period of 5 months, with the correct training, he would probably improve his marathon pb by about 2 minutes (he’s not conditioned well enough to close the gap between his half and full times the way that the Kenyans might). So, a two min improvement would be sweet. But Jake needs to get down into the 2:16 area and then move on to the 2:13’s. Trying to close the gap between his Aerobic Threshold (AT) and Lactate Threshold (LT) wouldn’t yield the results that he requires, is capable of, and deserves for his work ethic etc.

Right then, simple, get after that 5k time and murder it. Bring that speed to the half and then carry that on into the marathon. Simple. For sure, some damage needs to be done on the 5k front, but it’s not that simple. That methodology is old school and is one of the major problems with the Western approach to marathon running. Effectively, what happens is the runner blows up around 22 miles because they are spending too much time working in the wrong areas at the wrong times. All those reps between 400 and 1600 aren’t much help, nor are the 10 mile tempo runs at mp etc. No good. Oh, here we go, Stazza’s going to spout all the Canova stuff. No. No I’m not. That approach wouldn’t work here either. An understanding of various methods and the runners you're working with hints at the way forward. Following Daniels, Canova, Hadd, and whomever you like would not work here. Jake's not a rat in a cage or one of two hundred Kenyan's where it's the survival of fittest - that's how it really is over there, it's brutal. He has different strengths and weakness. A subtle and nuanced approach is necessary.

Jake certainly possesses the aerobic background (aerobic resistance and endurance - to use Canova’s terms) to match the top Kenyans. In fact, his aerobic resistance shames a few of the top Kenyans – think before you leap and challenge this statement.

Ok, so where do we go? First we need to examine his strengths and weaknesses – based on what we have at our disposal. I’ll start with some of the key strengths:

1. Big aerobic bank developed carefully over the years but with a serious increase in mileage 2-3 years ago. Prior to the Boston Burner he was regularly banging out 130-150 mpw and dropped out 5906 miles in 2012 and 5288 miles in 2013 – that’s with a full racing schedule and a good dose of reps and tempo runs and all the usual stuff. Sounds good, but ironically this is a huge area of opportunity. But we’ll come back to that.
2. Great ability to recover from long sessions. (I’ll talk about this another time and show you some great stuff that Jake produced on his approach to recovery and some more stuff he needs to do – although Andrea's whipping him into shape.) And remember, it’s during the recovery days that adaptation takes place and that’s one of the reasons why you shouldn’t run too fast on your easy days. I’ve noticed on the logs that lots of runners are doing their recovery/easy/steady days too fast. But more on that another time.
3. All the desire, passion, humbleness, guts etc goes without too much needing to be said.
4. Intelligence. Great at listening to his body. Although he was plagued with injuries in his youth, he’s now had a great spell of consistency. Consistency and patience are essential to success.
5. Based on a mixture of miles and tempo runs and a few other bits and pieces he’s managed to get down to 2:20. He’s ready to start training now.
Got to go and have my dinner – grilled chicken breast (skinless) with wholegrain rice peppered with turmeric and a nice selection of vegetables).

pa4

Do you coach Jake?

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

Do you coach Jake?

No, I'm not his coach. I do help and make suggestions and explain the reasons behind the ideas. Jake makes up his own mind. His partner has a huge input too. He also has a network of great people around him. He is, however, starting to blend in more and more of my ideas. He's sent his schedule, which I'll post when I get the background out of the way, and has asked for ideas and suggestions. He's also asked for a 12 week autumn marathon plan to follow on from his build-up from now until June. He'll look at what I/we on here suggest and then decide what will fit his situation best.

His California marathon pb was a blend of my ideas and his and Andreas. I'd have done things differently, but this is a good example of how it works for him. He had racing/sponsorship commitments and was chasing some pocket money etc, and was phasing in new approaches. Bottom line, he doesn't need a coach. But I think he likes the honest appraisals I give and that I make him think harder about what he's doing, which he has needed recently.

Stazza

The Stazza System - Jake Krong Part 2

The key weaknesses/Opportunities:
1. Clearly Jake’s 5k time doesn’t marry with his 10k time and everything thereafter. In fact, in the 10k, he’s put together back-to-back 5k’s that are faster than his stand alone 5k time. And it isn’t that he doesn’t race over 5k – he regularly races over the distance. His 5k pace is pretty much the same as his half marathon pace give or take a couple of seconds per mile.

2. By neglecting specific 5k/3k workouts and the associated pain means he hasn’t stayed in touch with his VO2 Max, vV02 Max, and tlimvVo2 Max; ergo he’s not maximizing his opportunities to develop running specific leg strength and power, which are important for running economy: if his muscles were stronger he wouldn’t need to recruit so many fibres at certain paces and would therefore be running more efficiently at faster paces. Also, the neuromuscular adaptations from this type of work would help with running economy too. He could then improve his LT and then move on to narrowing the gap between LT and AT. But that’s old news. Here’s the reason why it’s really important. You know when your hammy’s and calf muscles start crying at 22 miles and you start saying it’s all to do with salt, electrolytes, fuel, water, what you had for dinner a week ago etc – think again. Most of the time it’s your body’s inability to recruit neglected fibres when the more aerobic fibres are exhausted - from inappropriate training; this is especially true if you are running on hilly courses where the combination of this and glycogen depletion really come in to play. Another factor here is the eccentric and concentric contractions that mess you about and mess up the neural pathways if all the VO2 stuff is neglected. Think Boston – downhill with that cheeky little heartbreak where the cramps come in etc. If you’re training for a hilly race, obviously you train on undulating courses, but VO2 stuff really helps, especially when combined with 8x8 sec hill blasts – but we’ll come back to that. How and when do you slot this sort of work into your training? I’ll come back to that, but for now, VO2 max stuff shouldn’t be in your last 8 weeks of a marathon build-up.

3. Ancillary work – the small things. Andrea has started working with Jake on the ancillary stuff. I’ll come back to this too. But this was an area where Jake needed to improve.

4. Teaching the body to get the balance right when it comes to burning fuel at MP. He touched on this during his California Marathon build up. More work on this area and he would have busted 2:20.

5. Holding back and controlling his desire to race in the marathon build-up. He’s improved here but still needs more work. He also needs to get out of the 2 marathon ‘races’ a year mindset and go for one marathon race a year.

So then, where do we go? I’ll see if I can workout how to get this calendar with his key sessions plotted and the annotations and plonk it on the log. Then we’ll begin…

pconn062

Why was this post carded?

pa4

pconn062 wrote: »

Why was this post carded?

Was just wondering the same thing!

Stazza

pconn062 wrote: »

Why was this post carded?

Not sure myself - waiting for an answer before I carry on.

But it might be because Runner5 posted a thank you. Unbeknownst to me, Runner 5 was my 11 year old daughter being a muppet or should I say puppet. She also, in her naivety, tried to post something daft about wanting to do some race or something and for me to coach her. Thankfully, it was spotted and I think it didn't get posted. She got banned immediately. She's had her ipad confiscated. I've apologised to the mod concerned. Hopefully her silly actions didn't cause as much stress for the mod as it caused in our household.

I got a warning for trolling. Apparently the post might cause stress for the members. Unless Jake has complained, which would very much surprise me as he gave me the go ahead to openly discuss his schedule etc. I'm at a loss for the reasons behind the warning.

I'll wait for the details...

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

Not sure myself - waiting for an answer before I carry on.

But it might be because Runner5 posted a thank you. Unbeknownst to me, Runner 5 was my 11 year old daughter being a muppet or should I say puppet. She also, in her naivety, tried to post something daft about wanting to do some race or something and for me to coach her. Thankfully, it was spotted and I think it didn't get posted. She got banned immediately. She's had her ipad confiscated. I've apologised to the mod concerned. Hopefully her silly actions didn't cause as much stress for the mod as it caused in our household.

I got a warning for trolling. Apparently the post might cause stress for the members. Unless Jake has complained, which would very much surprise me as he gave me the go ahead to openly discuss his schedule etc. I'm at a loss for the reasons behind the warning.

I'll wait for the details...

You should get Jake to start posting

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

You should get Jake to start posting

He's been reading the posts and is planning to post soon. But it's good to see that the mod's are all over the trolling and sock puppets etc.

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

He's been reading the posts and is planning to post soon. But it's good to see that the mod's are all over the trolling and sock puppets etc.

Good stuff. The mods are fairly good here, don't think they'll hold a grudge against you anyway!

drquirky

Stazza wrote: »

Now that all that's out of the way, I'll begin. Ran in the Killarney 5k race today - beaten in a sprint finish. I suppose younger legs are always going to get the better of me in a sprint finish. Gave it my best. Ho hum.

Weather was wicked and we got there late so not much time for a warm up. On the way out, the wind and hail and rain were head on. Really tough going. Didn't notice the wind on my back on the way in. Always the way. Don't know the times yet. The clock at the finish line was screwed and I didn't stop my Garmin. But I'm not happy about losing in a sprint finish. If it happens again, I might just have to give up or lock my 11 yr old daughter in the shed. Bad form to out sprint your old fella:)

With half-baked w/u and short c/d 5 miles.

Hey Stazza- what was your time in this race? Were you near the top of the field? Great course- I'm really fond of running out that way.

menoscemo

pconn062 wrote: »

Why was this post carded?

you can click on the yellow card and see...there was another post that was deleted (stazza has explained).

Stazza

drquirky wrote: »

Hey Stazza- what was your time in this race? Were you near the top of the field? Great course- I'm really fond of running out that way.

I didn't race it, I ran with my 11 yr old daughter (the very naughty one). I think she did 23:16 - not bad in the conditions.

It's a cracking little course, although I'm not sure about the u-turn at the halfway mark - that's more to do with being old and all that:) Maybe our paths will cross...

Stazza

a.m. 7 miles relaxed.
p.m. 6 miles with 4 hardish (22:32) The wind helped a good bit.

AIS before and after both runs.

jakek

pa4 wrote: »

You should get Jake to start posting

I'm catching up here and reading the posts. Stazza has the green-light to post the things we've been discussing via e-mail. I've just been busy with work recently and then spending time skiing and away from the computer on the weekends. But I do intend to jump in more shortly - I like the discussions here!

Stazza

a.m. 7 miles ez with Paddy the Kenyan. Good chat about training and life etc. Felt fine after last night's tester. No reaction.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed with 8x100m strides in the second half of the run. Felt like I was 18 again: relaxed and fast and nice pop off the ground. Hopefully everything will be ok tomorrow. Feel like I'm making progress.

A.I.S. before and after both runs.

pa4

jakek wrote: »

I'm catching up here and reading the posts. Stazza has the green-light to post the things we've been discussing via e-mail. I've just been busy with work recently and then spending time skiing and away from the computer on the weekends. But I do intend to jump in more shortly - I like the discussions here!

It'd be good to get your input on things too