The Running Master

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

It'd be good to get your input on things too

I'm just typing up the next phase and I suspect when he reads it he'll be jumping in with some counter punches:D

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

I'm just typing up the next phase and I suspect when he reads it he'll be jumping in with some counter punches:D

I did some of your famous AIS after my run this evening the legs feel fair good now!

Stazza

I'll get round to explaining AIS and why it's important etc. I've got a surprise for you and pconn. But you'll have to wait a while...

Stazza

The Stazza System – Jake Krong Part 3

I was unable to copy and paste Jake’s training/racing calendar, which details the key weekly workouts from last week through the Phoenix marathon on the 1st Mar, but I’ve transcribed them below.

On the 8th Dec Jake ran a pb for the marathon (2:20:41). He followed this with a break and then started back training 10-14 days later. His first post marathon workout was on the 23rd December – 15k AT Tempo (59:41 – AP 5:26). On Christmas Day he dropped out 12x400m -73 secs – 0ff a 200 jog rec. And then on the 28th Dec he did 4x2miles @ AT pace averaging 10:34.

From the beginning of 2014 through 19th Jan he did a range of sessions introducing AT and LT wave tempos and LT reps (6x1). Basically he was feeling his way back into training after the marathon.

On the 19th Jan he ran in the USA Half Marathon Champs in Houson. He finished in 1:07:26 (pretty close to where he thought he’d finish and two mins off his pb). 5k splits 16:01; 15:55; 15:58; 16:08. But remember, this was after a marathon and a break. This was a benchmark race to kick-off the year.

On Thursday he did a 6 mile AT Progression 5:28 down to 4:58. And then on Saturday he ran a local 5k race, where the idea was to run @ LT, He finished in 15:33 – a touch faster than his current LT. He followed the race with a session of 4x200m in 30-31 secs.

Now we’re up-to-date. Here’s what his idea is:

Key Weekly workouts leading into Phoenix half marathon

Week 1
Prog AT Tempo 6-8 miles;5k Race @ LT + 200m strides after race; 20 miles

Week 2
Wave Tempo 5-6 4/2;10k efforts;6-8 x 0.5 mile;20 miles with fast finish

Week 3
LT Reps 6x 1mile;5k efforts 12-15x1min;10k Race @ LT

Week 4
Wave Tempo 6-7 3/2;Prog AT Tempo 6-8 miles; 20 Fast finish

Week 5
LT Reps 3-4x2miles;5k/10k fartlek 5x(2-1-1);15k Race AT Prog

Week 5
LT Reps 4-5xmile cutdowns; Half Marathon

At a glance, on many levels, it makes perfect sense. It’s progressive and works in the key training zones. Jake is using this mini block as a "building/transition" phase before moving it up a level in April and May.

Here's what Jake said about this block:

Some explanations of what I'm thinking..

-Keep the volume ~85-90 mpw
-Continue to slowly phase in the wave runs
-Some shorter efforts (1 minute or less) to practice running fast with good form... smooth the transition to longer, faster effort
-LT work is done at realistic / current fitness level. Not goal paces.
-Use the 5K/10K/15K races as tempo runs (LT for the first two, AT progression for the 15K).

From the end of this block, I have 9 weeks until my target Half-Marathon. So that's when the volume/intensity would start to crank up and the work would become a lot more specific.

I'll be back in wee while with some observations...

jakek

Before Stazza jumps in, here's what I've done since running 1:05:54 in November and 2:20:41 in December:



Most of the "workouts" were in the 5:10-5:30 pace range. [Daily log/details: December - January]. So it was hard to get the legs moving much faster at the half-marathon in Houston.

My big races for the spring are the USA 10 mile champs (Apr 6) and the Indy 500 Half-Marathon (May 2). I have another half-marathon on March 1st which I'm sort of using as a fitness benchmark to kick off my "real" specific half-marathon training block in March/April.

This is what I sent to Stazza as my outline for this "transition" block - 6 weeks leading up to the half on March 1st:



I'm keeping my weekly mileage around 90mpw for this chunk of time. Lower than I've done in the past, but I want to stay fresh and be progressively building throughout the year.

And I see as I'm posting this, Stazza has just done the same!

statss

This is fascinating stuff keep it coming guys.

T runner

jakek wrote: »

Before Stazza jumps in, here's what I've done since running 1:05:54 in November and 2:20:41 in December:



Most of the "workouts" were in the 5:10-5:30 pace range. [Daily log/details: December - January]. So it was hard to get the legs moving much faster at the half-marathon in Houston.

My big races for the spring are the USA 10 mile champs (Apr 6) and the Indy 500 Half-Marathon
(May 2). I have another half-marathon on March 1st which

I'm sort of using as a fitness benchmark to kick off my "real" specific half-marathon training block in March/April.

This is what I sent to Stazza as my outline for this "transition" block - 6 weeks leading up to the half on March 1st:

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/- F68Fykh2quM/UuaTT0MPAvI/AAAAAAAAtOs/wtXJxR_5T1c/s640/HoustontoPHXhalf.png[/IMG]

I'm keeping my weekly mileage around 90mpw for this chunk of time. Lower than I've done in the past, but I want to stay fresh and be progressively building throughout the year.

And I see as I'm posting this, Stazza has just done the same!

Hi jake. Thanks for sharing your training and plans here.

Your transition pLAN looks good for your march HM. Are you feeling a lot fresher for the quality
stuff on the lower mileage? Stazza says your aerobic base and resistance is excellent. I guess that should alow you to concentrate more on the key and/or specific sessions in each phase.

How are you finding the wave runs? I guess Theres a lot of transitioning between the two paces until the LT reps get longer.

My back ground is in hill/mountain running. Ive run 2 marathons with a PB of 2:35:02. Plan is a crack at sub 2:30 this Autumn. Unlike yourself i havent maxed my base or resistance to potential and am using the winter to progress this further. I know you did a seriois amount of 100-140 mile weks over the last few years. Ive ran 100 even last 2 weeks. Recobery week now, but im wiling to do what it takes to maximise my base, so i can do the training i need to do closer to marathon
time. From yoir experience, what is the best way to go about building this base? Is it just a matter of consistant 15-20 mile days or does the structure need to be more subtle than that? No rush or obligation in answering. Thanks again
T runner

Stazza

My first reactions (note these were immediate reactions:
1. 3 ‘workouts’ a week (2 workouts and/or a 20 miler) at this stage of the year, when the major goal is an autumn marathon, might result in burnout/staleness. But then I know Jake’s cautious and is an ardent believer in consistency and not leaving everything in the workouts and low key races.

2. Is he pushing to make the US Trials via the half marathon route and that’s why he’s going for the 3 workout angle? Possibly and then if he doesn’t quite make it the back up is the marathon in autumn.

3. With the introduction of ancillary work (not on the schedule – light balance and coordination stuff and stretching) might he be overdoing it: introducing too many things too soon and therefore over stressing his body?

4. Will he run those races at the suggested paces – LT and AT or will he push too hard. But I know he has no problem using races as training and is ‘happyish’ to run races without going flat-out.

5. Why do 5k and 10k pace workouts that aren’t ‘really’ 5k and 10k sessions? Jake was expecting this one from me, so when I dived straight in and said I had some ‘observations’ about these sessions, he explained that they were there to usher in some faster pace work – makes sense(ish).

6. Although the AT sessions made sense – in terms of their progressive nature – they seemed a bit wishy-washy: half sessions again.

7. The idea of LT mile reps has never appealed to me, so these seemed a bit odd, unless he was employing them as a tool to push/improve his LT pace. Needed more thought.

8. Then the wave tempo runs slipping between MP and HMP – big fan of these, but something didn’t sit with me…

More to come in a min…

jakek

T runner wrote: »

1) Are you feeling a lot fresher for the quality stuff on the lower mileage?

2) How are you finding the wave runs?

3) From yoir experience, what is the best way to go about building this base? Is it just a matter of consistant 15-20 mile days or does the structure need to be more subtle than that?
T runner

Hey T Runner - I've numbered your questions so I make sure to answer them all...

1) Hard to know, as I don't really feel like I'm "in shape" yet. But I will tell you that a lot of the little aches have gone away, my muscles feel "smoother" (ie. no knots), and I don't really have any lingering residual fatigue. So I think that I'm in a good place as I progress into more challenging workouts. The lower mileage should start to pay off when I start hitting the gas pedal.

2) So far I like them. They force you to stay engaged in a way that typical tempo runs (even progression runs) don't. Paying attention to your breathing and perceived effort becomes more important. Now, I've only done a couple and they haven't been too difficult (only 1 minute faster segments). As those LT segments move up to 2-4 minutes, I have a feeling the workouts are going to be a lot more challenging.

3) My experience might not be the BEST approach, but I just found that I started stacking a lot of 15-20 mile days together. I got lucky that I didn't create any injuries. Keys were - running the easy runs easy, and not letting it become a mental burden. You can't dread high mileage - you have to really embrace it and want to do it. At that time I did a lot of run-commuting to/from work (I still do that), and that makes it easier to get another 7 miles in the evening - it was my way home!

jakek

To Stazza's 8 points above - before he chimes back in...

1. I'm also factoring in the "winter" variable. At some point, we're going to get hit with some storms and I'm going to have to drop/modify some workouts. I'm fine just doing 2 quality runs per week, as I did last fall.

2. I'd like to, at the very least, run a half-marathon PR this spring. If I could do that by the beginning of May, it would be a lot easier for me (mentally) to shift focus to 100% marathon.

3. Our progression w/ ancillary work is slow. I get too bored with it to over-do it

4. I'm committed to avoiding over-racing and I'm OK getting my butt kicked in some local races... as long as its part of a progression towards a bigger goal. That being said, I love being at races with my friends so I want to incorporate some of the local races into my workout schedule.

5/6/7/8. I'm definitely open to suggestions about how to modify these sessions. Right now I feel like my leg speed isn't there, and want to start phasing in some faster efforts so I feel smoother at quick paces.

Stazza

Remember, they were my first impressions

With the benefit of some time and seeing the bigger picture I could see where everything was moving and I began to smile to myself. Everything has to be progressive. This game’s about appropriate stress, recovery and adaptation. This block of training does that. The three workout/sessions aren’t too taxing. They will introduce a modicum of stress in the right zones without overstressing. With the reduced mileage, Jake will be able to recover easily enough to manage the schedule, and that’s with some of the little extras thrown in.

The more I looked at it the harder I found it to see any weaknesses. Looked perfect. But still something was gnawing away in the back of my mind and then it came to me…

This will serve its purpose; it’ll facilitate the transition to harder work in March-May. But when we get to March where will we be? Fresh and strong and efficient and ready to tackle the harder work – the stuff that hurts and makes the difference. Perfect! Maybe not.

Where are the triggers? I can’t see the triggers. And this is what was gnawing me. Yep, the wave runs are in there, there’s a hint of 5k/10k pace stuff to get some turnover going and set up for March onwards to perhaps do some more harder work in these zones, the ancillary stuff is in there and it sounds great and will, I’m sure make a difference. It’s safe and as Jake’s mentioned above, he’s feeling fresher etc. The niggles have gone and that’s a huge plus as we all know. But where are the triggers?

What on earth are triggers? Well, if we look at what Jake needs to do: 2:17 is 5:13 pace, which is 1:08:30 through half way. This is 2:45 slower than Jake’s current pb. At the moment Jake roughly goes through halfway in 1:10 (5:21 pace). The increase in speed is 8 secs per mile over 26 miles. Clearly he needs to improve his half time – we all know and can see that. That’s exactly what he’s trying to do. So, where does his half need to be for him to pull off 2:17? Somewhere around 1:03:30 and 1:04. (4:51-4:53 pace for the half). That’s 15:10 for 4x5k or 30:20 for 2x10k. Given Jake’s pb’s for these distances, it means he’ll need to run at 5k pb pace for the half, or pretty much at 10k pace for the half. Sounds like a daunting prospect. To put it another way, that’s 73 secs for each 400m over 21k: 21x1k@3:02 pace - without any recoveries.

Yep, he can start building a nice base and transition into some harder work and with fresher legs and improved ground contact he’ll make gains. And as the sessions develop they too will help the process of improving. But we still come back to this 5k time. To run your 5k pb 4 times and another km at this pace is going to take something more than where we're starting and moving towards, imho.

So, do we go all guns blazing and work on a 5k schedule and develop that into a half program. That’s where most people would go with this. But this isn’t the answer with Jake, imho.

If Jake were to hit the track, and week in week out, do 4x1mile @ 5k pace with the next session being a 3k pace session or a 1500m session and also throw in some LT work and AT work, he’d get injured.

We have a problem. Let me rephrase that, we have a challenge. Better still, we have an opportunity and it’s a huge one and it’s a winner in my eyes. Not only will it take Jake to 1:03:30 {+- a few secs} and qualification well before time, it’ll give him a good sub 2:17 marathon and set him up to go in and around 2:13.

How? I’ll tell you tomorrow. But for now, I’ll TRIGGER your imaginations, it wont quite be the expected uphill battle you think it might be… Sweet dreams…And the answer isn't in 8x8 sec hill blasts.

Stazza

a.m. 8 miles ez. Was hoping to drop out a 13 this morning but the clock conspired against me. Time constraints mean doing two runs today isn't going to happen. If all goes well, I'll probably end up doing 5 doubles and two singles (84-88 miles) for the week, with a 13/14 med run and two harder sessions and two sessions of strides.

AIS before and run

T runner

jakek wrote: »

Hey T Runner - I've numbered your questions so I make sure to answer them all...

1) Hard to know, as I don't really feel like I'm "in shape" yet. But I will tell you that a lot of the little aches have gone away, my muscles feel "smoother" (ie. no knots), and I don't really have any lingering residual fatigue. So I think that I'm in a good place as I progress into more challenging workouts. The lower mileage should start to pay off when I start hitting the gas pedal.

2) So far I like them. They force you to stay engaged in a way that typical tempo runs (even progression runs) don't. Paying attention to your breathing and perceived effort becomes more important. Now, I've only done a couple and they haven't been too difficult (only 1 minute faster segments). As those LT segments move up to 2-4 minutes, I have a feeling the workouts are going to be a lot more challenging.

3) My experience might not be the BEST approach, but I just found that I started stacking a lot of 15-20 mile days together. I got lucky that I didn't create any injuries. Keys were - running the easy runs easy, and not letting it become a mental burden. You can't dread high mileage - you have to really embrace it and want to do it. At that time I did a lot of run-commuting to/from work (I still do that), and that makes it easier to get another 7 miles in the evening - it was my way home!

Thanks Jake.
Im working about 8 miles from home and with a young family I have to get most of the mileage in during commutes and/or at lunch break.
Sleep is an issue for now, so I don't have any big modulations. I'm doing 2 Hadd type sessions a week 90 mins with 70 at just under AT pace . I found the Hadd approach handy for getting me back up to higher mileage after a 2 month break (after my son was born 5 month ago) without hard sessions which aren't possible now.

I felt very sluggish under the high mileage (and after the layoff) initially but Im enjoying it more and more, as a little more strength starts to kick in and progress is noticed. Im doing some drills and strides in order to keep the mileage as economical as possible.

I hope to average 110+ mpw and have to decide now whether to

1. make my 2 sessions harder with easy mileage (with LT and AT Sessions) or 2. to just try and slowly crank up the average pace and and keep going as I am.

My sleep pattern points me to option 2 most likely.

I'm assuming your training resembled option one, keeping the easy runs easy?

Anyway, I'm doing some ancillary work myself including core exercises, drills and hill sprints. I've read some sports coaches (inc. Steve Magness, I think) question the amount of transfer benefit of drills to running technique. I don't 100% agree with this but i'm starting to understand why it might be important to do some running after the exercise.

I'm thinking this could just as easily apply to core work. If done even before an easy run, more running specific endurance of the already tired core muscles should ensue. That's what I'm going with anyway, although I don't have any of the basic strength work done yet as Stazza has pointed out on another thread.

Thanks again for info re. aerobic base.

Here's a link to some training that Fionnuala Britton did prior to winning the Euro XC in 2011, showing how some of her drill training was positioned.

jakek

T Runner - I was thinking I needed to add a caveat to my earlier thoughts, and you already touched on it... sleep. Crucial component of recovery. I'd never be able to run the amount I do w/out a solid 8 hours every night. You have to be careful about burning the candle at both ends... so make sure you approach that line without going over the edge.

My training in 2011 resembled option 1 for the first 6 months. Just loads of easier running with no worries about pace... lots of running w/ my girlfriend. Picking up the end of runs occassionally. I was able to run a 50:30 15K and 15:45 5K (at moderate altitude) towards the end of that stretch.

T runner

jakek wrote: »

T Runner - I was thinking I needed to add a caveat to my earlier thoughts, and you already touched on it... sleep. Crucial component of recovery. I'd never be able to run the amount I do w/out a solid 8 hours every night. You have to be careful about burning the candle at both ends... so make sure you approach that line without going over the edge.

My training in 2011 resembled option 1 for the first 6 months. Just loads of easier running with no worries about pace... lots of running w/ my girlfriend. Picking up the end of runs occassionally. I was able to run a 50:30 15K and 15:45 5K (at moderate altitude) towards the end of that stretch.

Yep. Thats fair enough. Im only getting 7 hrs on a good night for now. Im building slowly. Im finding the general mileage is doable but i cant have any tiring sessions as i simply wont be able to recover. Think a lot of easy miles for me is the way to go, until theres more sleep available hopefully in the next few months. Wonder where Stazza is gone with his Triggers.....?

Stazza

T runner wrote: »

Yep. Thats fair enough. Im only getting 7 hrs on a good night for now. Im building slowly. Im finding the general mileage is doable but i cant have any tiring sessions as i simply wont be able to recover. Think a lot of easy miles for me is the way to go, until theres more sleep available hopefully in the next few months. Wonder where Stazza is gone with his Triggers.....?

I'm here, just got back from teaching Heaney and Plath, and Yeats - Jnr cert and Snr cert grinds for a friend's kids. Give me a few mins and I'll be back with my triggers etc:)

Stazza

Given that Jake needs to improve his HMP from 5:01 pace down to 4:51-53 pace and that his 5k/10k pb pace is 4:48-49, there needs to be some improvement in the 5k and 10k more notably on his 5k.

The reasons for not diving straight into a 5k style schedule are that he’ll rob the aerobic base he’s currently maintaining and there’s a risk that some old niggles might flare up. Amongst other things, the risks outweigh the opportunities when it comes to this option.

But he does need to find a way forward in terms of improving his 5k and 10k pb’s if he is to get it on with running 1:03:30-1:04. It’ll be difficult to achieve the ‘necessary’ improvements if he follows his planned draft strategy, regardless of the fact that it’s progressive and will lead to ‘some’ improvements.

Before I go into the options, I’d like to point out the session he did this morning ~ 6 mile wave tempo in 32:05 (5:21 mi avg) alternating 4 mins @ AT with 2 mins LT (x6) with 2 extra mins @ AT to make 6 miles. The AT’s were avg 5:29 and the LT’s were avg 5:05; he wanted 5:30 and 5:05 - not bad. Even better given that he did the session off feel! What’s good about this is the fact that he’s tuning into how his body feels. He’s able to feel LT pace, which is harder to get right than AT. LT’s the important one here because ultimately (within this 5-6 month block) he’s trying to improve his speed at LT= HMPish.

So, he needs a trigger that will facilitate an improvement in his 5k /10k times that will not harm his aerobic base or bring on an injury or change the nature of his training from half marathon and marathon to 5k etc.

Weights, circuits, plyos and all the strength stuff are not an option, in fact it would prove regressive and detrimental and more than likely end in injury. In my experience, hardly any athletes and coaches understand this aspect of training. I include sprinters and sprint coaches here too. I’ll explain this another time.

What’s left? Hill blasts for power and strength, surely that’s ok. Everybody’s raving about Canova’s 8 sec hill blasts – they’re the in-thing. Wrong way to go and would result in injury and other problems – I’ll cover this at another time. (I know I’m putting many things on the back burner but I’m trying to get to the point where I can show what Jake needs to do.)

What’s left?

Clean out all of Jake’s workouts. Put in the races. Jake ran 15:33 for 5k on the weekend – at altitude. That’s 5 min pace. The idea was to run it @ LT. That’s a bit faster than his current LT. But the method he employed to run the race gives the clue to the way forward. Although he ran a bit faster than LT, during the final few mins he moved down to genuine 5k race pace and then into VO2 Max territory and then faster again. After the race he dropped out 4x200m @30-31 secs.

And this is the trigger; this is how he gets effectively, progressively, and safely into 5k/VO2 Max zone and faster. He runs LT sessions and finishes off by running the final few mins down in these zones. Then progresses from here. He complements this with a structured, progressive, block of Yoyos. This way, the metabolic and musculoskeletal system develop in tandem (or a least a lot closer than is the usual case)

This is like a sensitive alarm clock waking these fibres; it does it progressively and safely. The muscles are ready to go, the tendons and ligaments come along too, and the skeletal system isn’t overly stressed. Meanwhile, if the effort of the repetitions is managed correctly, metabolic conditioning is progressive too.

I posted this on pconn’s log:

First off, 95% of the runners I’ve encountered do their Lactate Threshold and Tempo runs too fast. They normally get it wrong because they work out their LT or MP incorrectly and then end up running too fast. They also don’t take into consideration the fact that they are in the middle of a block of training and their real LT is even slower than if they worked it out correctly.

The best way to do LT runs, if you haven’t got the proper means of testing, is to run by feel. Example, yesterday I wanted to bang out 8 miles as a progression run working up to LT. Didn’t happen. Legs were too heavy and tired and so I ended up modifying the 8 miles to incl 4 miles at a moderate pace. My LT pace yesterday would’ve been substantially slower than today. It moves about depending on how your body feels etc.

So what is ‘by feel’? Feel doesn’t mean the pace that you can handle for 60-65mins. It means the effort you could handle for about 60 mins, depending on your ability – most people on here would fall into the 55-60 range. And by feel, you should be running comfortably hard – blowing a bit but not knocking the back out of it; you should be going fast enough so that your mind isn’t thinking about your holidays etc – you need to be focused on maintaining a relaxed rhythm. When you’ve finished a 20 min effort, within a 2 min jog rec you should be able to repeat the 20 mins, no problem. A lot of people go out and run 20-24 mins but most wouldn’t be able to repeat it after a 2 min jog rec. Too fast.

So, we’ll call the 2x20min EFFORT the starting point. This is the easiest session. Yep, you use a watch for the time, but not the pace or distance. We then take this session down to 4x10 mins at the same EFFORT – not pace. The recovery remains at 2 mins. We then take the session down to 3x8 mins at the same effort but now we take 3 mins rec – there’s a good reason for this (but I’m not telling why: it’ll start getting messy). From here we drop down 4x6mins at the same EFFORT off 3mins. Are you ready? Now we rebound out and work our way back up with the exact same EFFORT and recoveries. Once get back to 2x20 mins – substantial improvement has occurred. What’s even better is that because you haven’t used your Garmin you’re not sure how much improvement you’ve made and that’s part of it.

We then shift into the Lactate shunt sessions. These are awesome and they too are done in a rebound style. Here’s how they go:
1.3x (8mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) How great is that, ay?
2. 4x(6mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3min jog rec) You’re liking these babies, aren’t ya?
3. 5x(5mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) Super-smashing-great I hear you cry.
4. 8x(3mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) This is the daddy of all daddies.

And then back up...

Now, what Jake needs to do, imho, is one of the above sessions each week. But he needs to add in a progressive finish in the final stages of the runs. But NEVER making it longer than 2-3 mins. I’ll explain why another time. He needs to complement these sessions with Yoyo’s (a more effective trigger) and AT runs (no waves or reps – not yet anyway: they come after this block and they start the opposite way round to where Jake’s starting ie longer reps first working down. I’ll explain that later too). There’s a knack to the AT runs too, but I’ll get there - sometime.

So the weekly workouts in Phase 1 would look like this:

1. LT with VO2 Trigger 2. Yoyos 3. AT’s.

What are yoyo’s? That’s coming next.

ThebitterLemon

I know what yoyos are, I've none left the missus spent all of mine

Stazza

Started trying to put together some stuff on Yoyos but I'm done in. Got to get some zeds. Yoyos tomorrow...

Stazza

Just back from my morning run and was thinking through a few things,

1. It's important to credit the sources for the ideas, so later I'll explain how the LT sessions, with the Kellogg twist, are a cocktail of Magness, Canova, Kellogg, and most importantly, Anderson Tuva. I'll also explain my little twist with these sessions.

2. I'll explain in more detail how the trigger works and why it's necessary in Jake's case.

3. Also, this is live, the idea is for people to see how managing the process changes and adapts. And when I've managed to get the draft plan down, I'll explain the framework, which underpins the whole system.

4. I will also, comeback to the points where I said, I'll explain that later. I made what may appear to be some sweeping statements - I will clarify these.

TRR

Stazza wrote: »

Just back from my morning run and was thinking through a few things,

1. It's important to credit the sources for the ideas, so later I'll explain how the LT sessions, with the Kellogg twist, are a cocktail of Magness, Canova, Kellogg, and most importantly, Anderson Tuva. I'll also explain my little twist with these sessions.

2. I'll explain in more detail how the trigger works and why it's necessary in Jake's case.

3. Also, this is live, the idea is for people to see how managing the process changes and adapts. And when I've managed to get the draft plan down, I'll explain the framework, which underpins the whole system.

4. I will also, comeback to the points where I said, I'll explain that later. I made what may appear to be some sweeping statements - I will clarify these.

a lot of clarifying, explaining and coming back to things it seems

Stazza

TRR wrote: »

a lot of clarifying, explaining and coming back to things it seems

:)Yep: it's just that I'm trying to fly through so Jake can get the draft plan. The difference is, Jake's conversant with most of these methods ~ he doesn't need it all explaining (although maybe some bits).

But I will be picking up the points and explaining them - in good time.

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

Given that Jake needs to improve his HMP from 5:01 pace down to 4:51-53 pace and that his 5k/10k pb pace is 4:48-49, there needs to be some improvement in the 5k and 10k more notably on his 5k.

The reasons for not diving straight into a 5k style schedule are that he’ll rob the aerobic base he’s currently maintaining and there’s a risk that some old niggles might flare up. Amongst other things, the risks outweigh the opportunities when it comes to this option.

But he does need to find a way forward in terms of improving his 5k and 10k pb’s if he is to get it on with running 1:03:30-1:04. It’ll be difficult to achieve the ‘necessary’ improvements if he follows his planned draft strategy, regardless of the fact that it’s progressive and will lead to ‘some’ improvements.

Before I go into the options, I’d like to point out the session he did this morning ~ 6 mile wave tempo in 32:05 (5:21 mi avg) alternating 4 mins @ AT with 2 mins LT (x6) with 2 extra mins @ AT to make 6 miles. The AT’s were avg 5:29 and the LT’s were avg 5:05; he wanted 5:30 and 5:05 - not bad. Even better given that he did the session off feel! What’s good about this is the fact that he’s tuning into how his body feels. He’s able to feel LT pace, which is harder to get right than AT. LT’s the important one here because ultimately (within this 5-6 month block) he’s trying to improve his speed at LT= HMPish.

So, he needs a trigger that will facilitate an improvement in his 5k /10k times that will not harm his aerobic base or bring on an injury or change the nature of his training from half marathon and marathon to 5k etc.

Weights, circuits, plyos and all the strength stuff are not an option, in fact it would prove regressive and detrimental and more than likely end in injury. In my experience, hardly any athletes and coaches understand this aspect of training. I include sprinters and sprint coaches here too. I’ll explain this another time.

What’s left? Hill blasts for power and strength, surely that’s ok. Everybody’s raving about Canova’s 8 sec hill blasts – they’re the in-thing. Wrong way to go and would result in injury and other problems – I’ll cover this at another time. (I know I’m putting many things on the back burner but I’m trying to get to the point where I can show what Jake needs to do.)

What’s left?

Clean out all of Jake’s workouts. Put in the races. Jake ran 15:33 for 5k on the weekend – at altitude. That’s 5 min pace. The idea was to run it @ LT. That’s a bit faster than his current LT. But the method he employed to run the race gives the clue to the way forward. Although he ran a bit faster than LT, during the final few mins he moved down to genuine 5k race pace and then into VO2 Max territory and then faster again. After the race he dropped out 4x200m @30-31 secs.

And this is the trigger; this is how he gets effectively, progressively, and safely into 5k/VO2 Max zone and faster. He runs LT sessions and finishes off by running the final few mins down in these zones. Then progresses from here. He complements this with a structured, progressive, block of Yoyos. This way, the metabolic and musculoskeletal system develop in tandem (or a least a lot closer than is the usual case)

This is like a sensitive alarm clock waking these fibres; it does it progressively and safely. The muscles are ready to go, the tendons and ligaments come along too, and the skeletal system isn’t overly stressed. Meanwhile, if the effort of the repetitions is managed correctly, metabolic conditioning is progressive too.

I posted this on pconn’s log:

First off, 95% of the runners I’ve encountered do their Lactate Threshold and Tempo runs too fast. They normally get it wrong because they work out their LT or MP incorrectly and then end up running too fast. They also don’t take into consideration the fact that they are in the middle of a block of training and their real LT is even slower than if they worked it out correctly.

The best way to do LT runs, if you haven’t got the proper means of testing, is to run by feel. Example, yesterday I wanted to bang out 8 miles as a progression run working up to LT. Didn’t happen. Legs were too heavy and tired and so I ended up modifying the 8 miles to incl 4 miles at a moderate pace. My LT pace yesterday would’ve been substantially slower than today. It moves about depending on how your body feels etc.

So what is ‘by feel’? Feel doesn’t mean the pace that you can handle for 60-65mins. It means the effort you could handle for about 60 mins, depending on your ability – most people on here would fall into the 55-60 range. And by feel, you should be running comfortably hard – blowing a bit but not knocking the back out of it; you should be going fast enough so that your mind isn’t thinking about your holidays etc – you need to be focused on maintaining a relaxed rhythm. When you’ve finished a 20 min effort, within a 2 min jog rec you should be able to repeat the 20 mins, no problem. A lot of people go out and run 20-24 mins but most wouldn’t be able to repeat it after a 2 min jog rec. Too fast.

So, we’ll call the 2x20min EFFORT the starting point. This is the easiest session. Yep, you use a watch for the time, but not the pace or distance. We then take this session down to 4x10 mins at the same EFFORT – not pace. The recovery remains at 2 mins. We then take the session down to 3x8 mins at the same effort but now we take 3 mins rec – there’s a good reason for this (but I’m not telling why: it’ll start getting messy). From here we drop down 4x6mins at the same EFFORT off 3mins. Are you ready? Now we rebound out and work our way back up with the exact same EFFORT and recoveries. Once get back to 2x20 mins – substantial improvement has occurred. What’s even better is that because you haven’t used your Garmin you’re not sure how much improvement you’ve made and that’s part of it.

We then shift into the Lactate shunt sessions. These are awesome and they too are done in a rebound style. Here’s how they go:
1.3x (8mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) How great is that, ay?
2. 4x(6mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3min jog rec) You’re liking these babies, aren’t ya?
3. 5x(5mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) Super-smashing-great I hear you cry.
4. 8x(3mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) This is the daddy of all daddies.

And then back up...

Now, what Jake needs to do, imho, is one of the above sessions each week. But he needs to add in a progressive finish in the final stages of the runs. But NEVER making it longer than 2-3 mins. I’ll explain why another time. He needs to complement these sessions with Yoyo’s (a more effective trigger) and AT runs (no waves or reps – not yet anyway: they come after this block and they start the opposite way round to where Jake’s starting ie longer reps first working down. I’ll explain that later too). There’s a knack to the AT runs too, but I’ll get there - sometime.

So the weekly workouts in Phase 1 would look like this:

1. LT with VO2 Trigger 2. Yoyos 3. AT’s.

What are yoyo’s? That’s coming next.

Stazza,

I like the look of the shunting sessions.
Just for Clarifying: You've outlined Phase 1, but you've also said the LT efforts (starting with 2 x 20 mins off 2) precede the shunting sessions which means in a preceding phase?

you've also said Jake needs to do one of these sessions per week with a progressive finish, but never longer than 2-3 mins. These cant be the shunting sessions as they have a definite 1 min of 5k effort. Are they the LT sessions?

I like the idea of dipping down into 5k/VO2 max paces while holding and developing LT.

I might have a use for the shunting sessions to transition my current base building and AT stuff, gradually down to LT work while holding AT, and then these shunting sessions could be beneficial to maximising aerobic power, while holding AT and LT, before extending the sessions all the way back to marathon specific work and bringing that pace closer to the, hopefully, much faster LT pace.

Stazza

Bang on T.

The progressive finish sessions are not shunt sessions. The LT sessions with the 2-3 min finish down in 5k-3k areas will mildly provoke and stimulate (trigger) the metabolic system and the musculoskeletal structures. These then lead into the shunt sessions, which in turn facilitate the move into the more traditional sessions - everything serves a purpose and is progressive with a target in mind.

So, strictly speaking you're correct to say that the LT-5k/3k sessions precede/pave the way for the first phase of shunt sessions. Although, I prefer to block these together in one larger phase as I'm looking down the road to autumn. These sessions will defo serve a purpose when it comes to improving Jake's LT/HM, but the primary purpose of them is to facilitate the transition to the harder, more traditional sessions. Later on today I’ll modify the sessions to make them more appropriate to Jake’s needs etc.

Your last para gets the whole idea of these.

jakek

Stazza wrote: »

...And this is the trigger; this is how he gets effectively, progressively, and safely into 5k/VO2 Max zone and faster. He runs LT sessions and finishes off by running the final few mins down in these zones.

When I look back to my buildup towards the Boston Marathon in the winter of 2012, I was finishing a lot of my runs like this - the last half-mile was often really moving. I got fast that spring, and came off the marathon and ran my best 10K (30:03).

This also works well given some variables I'm working with:

1) Colder weather in February/March
2) Running early in the mornings in that colder weather. I'm usually starting my primary run at 5:30-6:00am, before work.

So while its difficult to get down to those 5K paces off the bat in the mornings, I find I can do it easier (and w/ less injury risk) when done at the end of the session.

Stazza

jakek wrote: »

When I look back to my buildup towards the Boston Marathon in the winter of 2012, I was finishing a lot of my runs like this - the last half-mile was often really moving. I got fast that spring, and came off the marathon and ran my best 10K (30:03).

This also works well given some variables I'm working with:

1) Colder weather in February/March
2) Running early in the mornings in that colder weather. I'm usually starting my primary run at 5:30-6:00am, before work.

So while its difficult to get down to those 5K paces off the bat in the mornings, I find I can do it easier (and w/ less injury risk) when done at the end of the session.

Yeah, I've been thinking about the weather and I'd be more inclined to bounce the yoyo idea until April - after the USA 10 mile champs: this would give an extra trigger in the final push to the Indy half - where the real action will take place:).

I've been tweaking the LT stuff and the Shunts. I've also been looking at what could slip in where the yoyos were -I have a plan, which would give another trigger but not as powerful as the yoyos. But these sessions would work with the weather, the LT's/Shunts/Races etc and start to stimulate and provoke other aspects/elements that need a little push. These would also smooth in the transition to some harder stuff later. I'll get to these tonight. It's all on paper at the moment and I need to transfer it onto the computer.
:pac::pac::pac: I don't know what these symbols mean, but I mean I'm rushing around like an idiot at the moment.:D

Stazza

a.m. 7 miles relaxed - felt fine.
p.m. 6 miles progression. Got up to high end aerobic zone pretty quickly and then zipped along. Felt great. Mile 4-5 was on LT. Final mile easy. One more week of sorting out the doubles, progressions, and strides and I'll be ready to start.

AIS before and after both runs.

Stazza

Jake, if you get a chance could you pop this on to your posh calendar so we can see how it looks? Thanks in advance...

So lets get down to the nitty-gritty. I'll go through the details later - just wanted to get it down. The yoyos have taken a back seat because of the weather and they might prove too much given the range of stressors aligned with the racing schedule etc. They would be introduced later in the schedule.

First 5-6 weeks

Session 1 – Lactate threshold runs with a final 2-3 mins moving down to 5k and on to 3k pace:

1 2x20mins @ LT EFFORT by FEEL ~ 2min jog rec
2. 4x10 mins @ LT EFFORT by FEEL ~ 2min jog rec
3. 3x8 mins @ LT EFFORT by FEEL ~ 3* mins jog rec
4 . 4x10 mins @ LT EFFORT by FEEL ~ 2min jog rec
5. 2x20 mins @ LT EFFORT by FEEL ~ 2min jog rec

* LT EFFORT will have moved closer to 10k effort ~ the extra min rec accommodates the adaptation. The recovery is then dropped back down to 2 mins, so when Jake rebounds out, he’s now running faster as we extend the pace.

Session 2 – Acclimatize the body to faster EFFORT work and mildly trigger metabolic and musculoskeletal stress. Purpose: to facilitate harder work later and gradually improve running economy (RE).

1. 10x30 secs shallow hills 2@5k effort; 8@3k effort - jog back. If on
treadmill* do 2 mins jog rec.
2. 10 x 45 secs shallow hills; same as above.
3. 10x60 secs shallow hills; same as above
4. 12 mins @ LT EFFORT - 9 mins @10k EFFORT - 6 mins @ 5k EFFORT - 3 mins @3K EFFORT ~ 3 mins jog rec after each effort.
5. 8 mins @ LT EFFORT; 2x5 mins @10K EFFORT; 2x5mins @ 5K EFFORT - off 3 mins rec
6. 10 mins @ LT EFFORT; 2x6 mins @10 EFFORT; 2x5mins @ 5K EFFORT - off 3 mins rec

*Treadmill if weather conditions are severe. Also note that the hill work will impact negatively on running form, at least, initially. This is down to a number of things but the main reason is due to prolonged ground contact. Also, a runner of Jake’s ilk, would normally start with longer reps (2mins etc) and work down. Although Jake runs on undulating territory, almost daily, he rarely does hill reps – he needs to be broken in. 4-6x100m strides before these workouts.

Fibre recruitment after races/long runs
1.After races - 4x200m after race or 4x30sec hill efforts @moderate pace
2. Long runs - Incl some pick-ups towards the middle-end of the long run. Something like 4x30sec + 4x45 sec.

EXTRAS
8x100m strides in an easy run - not too fast: 1500m effort
working down to 800m effort - all about form and economy.

Easy runs/Recovery runs
Doubles, and you (Jake) know where I stand on this, 8’s and 6’s.

jakek

I did the first hill workout (10x30s) this morning, preceded by a few miles ~5:30 pace to get warm and loose. I felt like I was nearly hitting the speeds I would running 200s on the track, but since I was going uphill, obviously I was getting a lot more out of it.

As Stazza alluded to, in the past I've run a lot of "13/4" type doubles. I've been moving more towards the 8/6. So far, so good... I can sleep in longer

Here's the chart at the moment... showing what I did after a 2 week break post-CIM, and then moving into what we have planned...

Stazza

Thanks for that Jake - I haven't forgotten the AT elements. Now I can see it on the calendar I can work out where to drop in the AT parts. Be back later...