The Running Master

jakek

I'm not opposed to doing some AT workouts in place of long runs (those workouts tend to be on the longer side anyways)... or even during the longer runs.

Stazza

jakek wrote: »

I'm not opposed to doing some AT workouts in place of long runs (those workouts tend to be on the longer side anyways)... or even during the longer runs.

Yeah, that's exactly where I was going to place them. Notice how your AT runs in Jan magically transition into LT sessions.

Also, what you did today - dropping in some AT miles before the hills is a good idea too - maybe even bring the final mile before the hills down to LT pace: Warm up ~ AT (3) ~ LT (1) ~ strides ~ 4-6x100m ~ hills ~ cool down.

I'd be reluctant to suggest a Riley type AB as an AT because they tend to be extended LT sessions. (In their own right and at the right time they are great sessions but in this schedule they would put too much stress on you.) That said, there's no harm dropping out 6-10 miles at AT feel (not the strict/regimented pressure of the watch) and then recover before dropping in the strides. This way you are keeping in touch with AT pace.

Another point - I'm not liking the look of that 4x6 mins at the start of the Phoenix Half week; I'd take that out completely - it's a bit of a nothing session. Have a think and see what suits you best in a race week.

Stazza

Oh and just another point ~ I'd look at the long run and bring in at 18 rather 20. You'll recover much quicker this way and still get the same stimulus.

career_move

Yawn! It's Thursday - what's happened to our bedtime story

Stazza

career_move wrote: »

Yawn! It's Thursday - what's happened to our bedtime story

Just for you, CM ~ Long story short:

Christie started giving his talk, it lasted 10-15 mins. During the talk he spoke about how life was all about winning etc. He was very nervous. I realised that all his chat etc before he went on stage was his way of warming up etc. I felt sorry for him when I saw how vulnerable he looked up there on the stage. Pity turned to admiration: he was prepared to step well out of his comfort zone to do a favour for his friend, Bernard.

After the talk the audience were allowed to ask questions. Nobody asked the obvious ones. The unqualified journo in me wanted too, but I didn't. I had a strange drunken epiphany etc and instead I asked a question that now, with the benefit of hindsight, was kind of proleptic. I asked him something about, what if your children don't turn out to be winners, how do you deal with that? ~ all asked in a nice way etc.

He was expecting a different question; more down the obvious route. He stopped for a moment and in the silence, with all the students watching, he answered with honesty. He said, 'I don't know. I really don't know.' ETc etc.

After the talk we went to Bernard's college. S and I got hammered. I made a fool of myself - as you can imagine. According to Bernard, there were opportunities for us to get involved with Linford's crew - Nuff Respect. For a number of reasons that didn't happen.

I've left out all literary(ish) strands. The chicken's heart was meant to come into play and a few other things.

The End:D

career_move

Stazza wrote: »

Good Christie Hunting

In Memoriam - Dr Bernard Henry 1965-2007

Without fail, every Tuesday and Friday lunchtime Dr Bernard Henry would saunter into the clinic, strip down to his boxers, adopt the prone position on the treatment couch, and enjoy the pleasure of Stazza’s masterful hands. Bernard never paid for a massage or treatment. Not because he was 6”6’ and a good bit more, nor was it because he was an elite 200m runner for Thames Valley Harriers. To be in the presence of Bernard Henry was recompense enough for any service provided. A beautiful man.

But on this day, I witnessed a darker side of this beautiful man, a side that would have made Mike Tyson quake in his little black boxing booties and think twice before accepting a challenge to a fight to the death. And as we all know, everything is about fights to the death and arm wrestling.

Working on Bernard was always a bit of a wrestle for me. The muscularity of the man and the size of his limbs made it difficult to work on him, especially given the fact that I’m a mere 5”7’. Granted, because of my skills in the noble art of pugilism, you’d want me on your side in a tear-up. All the same, Bernard was tough to work on.

When I close my eyes and try to recall the events of the day, I see Bernard’s beautiful black body glistening in the sunlight; the soft scent of grape seed oil inhabits my nostrils and the smoothness of his skin soothes my mind as I begin with effleurage. Above his head, a fuss of dust mites frolic and skirr. And if a genie were to suddenly appear and transmute me into one of the mites, I suspect their soft whispers would laud the muscularity and unspoken ease of the man.

As my hands move from effleurage to petrissage we talk about many things. Maybe Nietzsche, maybe Keats, possibly U.S. history; he loved a good oxymoron. Whatever about the warm up, the conversation definitely moved onto British Athletics.

‘Who do you prefer, Coe or Christie?’
‘Coe, without a doubt,’ I say.
‘Why?’

I go on to expound my opinions of Christie, which are merely founded on reports in newspapers and magazines that state certain things have been proven.

Slowly, he turns on the bed. I take my hands away and think, what’s this all about. The mites skedaddle. The sun disappears behind a cloud and a chill fills the room. I study his face. White teeth that would shame an American. Eyebrows that hint that this is a man that takes male grooming seriously. His eyes have a look that cast a spell you’d imagine only the devil Himself could cast. This is not the icy stare of respect and fear that fighters meet in the centre of the ring. There’s a vacancy in his eyes that suggest he has the answers to questions he hasn’t even asked, yet.

‘Linford’s my best friend.’


To be continued.

Stazza wrote: »

Monday 20th Jan
PtK’s keen to see how I carry-off the Frame within the Frame in Bedtime Story With Stazza – he’s expecting something along the lines of Heart of Darkness. Now how can we transition from Oxford to the Kenyan coastal town of Malindi, capture the savagery that occurred there, and then bring it back?

Stazza wrote: »

Good Christie Hunting cont...

…When my sphincter ceased gnawing itself, I thought, there you go again, when will you ever learn to think before you, and then, like a bullet in the head it came to me: I’d been in worse situations than this - there was the time when I was boxing in the Abingdon Town Hall and I dropped under a left jab and delivered the sweetest uppercut I’d ever thrown and the fella merely stepped away, nodded, and then set about destroying me.

But that didn’t compare to the incident that occurred in the mansion near the golf course on the Kenyan coastal town of Malindi.

In the morning,we’d been to meet a traditional doctor, a man that A. referred to as The Teacher – a man with incredible powers. The purpose of the meeting was to get The Teacher to persuade the Two Fat Arabs to sell us their dhow.

I carried the four quarters of the chicken’s heart, wrapped in a sheet of newspaper, in the pocket of my shorts. Gazungo, our houseboy, had slaughtered the chicken minutes before we set off to meet The Teacher. I could almost feel the chambers of the heart beating against my thigh.

The Teacher wore a sarong and a blue Lacoste T-shirt. Mouth full of crumbling teeth. Breath like a camel’s fart. We dropped out the perfunctory Jambos and habari ganis and all the usual palaver. A. and The Teacher chatted away in Swahili while D. and N. and I stood waiting for the magic to begin.

Soon enough, we were sitting in the blistering heat outside The Teacher’s shack. Kids running through open sewers. The sweet smell of bananas baking on an open fire. A cocktail of banana, wood-smoke, and sewage. When I handed The Teacher the parcel containing the chicken’s heart, he beamed like a druggeh who was about to get his first fizz of the day. He unwrapped the parcel, and without any fuss, he took two quarters of the heart and placed them under his tongue. He stared at me hard - like he wanted to see the stains on my soul - and then he uttered some mumbo-jumbo in Swahili.

We all looked at each other and wondered if the rock was going stop spinning. The Teacher handed me the parcel with the two quarters of chicken’s heart and said something in Swahili and acted out a little routine that suggested I put the quarters of heart under a front door mat.

A. told me to pay The Teacher. I handed over some US and gave it the old, ‘Asante sana.’ When he smiled at my fluency in the old tongues, I tried my luck with some big city Nairobi vernacular, ‘Sour sour rafiki, ki-box,’ which translated means, ‘all right, my man.’

The Teacher and A. laughed hard at my Swahili patois.

A. told me that he’d hit the Fat Arabs’ yard and drop the two quarters of heart under the front door mat. The idea was that this would make them agree to our request to buy their dhow, at a steal – and a few days later we did. It worked.

After A. headed off to do the chicken business, N. went to meet a local brass he’d fallen in love with and D and I headed to the bockety pier that jutted out from the beach into the Indian Ocean. We sat there all day chewing miraa and hardly said a word. Just chewed miraa and Big G Bubble Gum, and enjoyed the magic as the rock did its thing. Sweet and sour.

As the sun set on the Indian Ocean and the fishermen cut across the horizon in their dhows, searching for the perfect spot to cast their nets, D. and I rose from our perch on the pier and made our way to one of the local bars. We linked with A. and N. and started on the Tusker. A. was a good few sheets to the wind. I’d dropped him a few shill’s and he’d spent the day on the tembo. His breath stank of baby sick.

At some point before the bar shut, we headed back to the run-down mansion, which we had ‘occupied’ soon after we arrived in Malindi. It belonged to some big-wig politician who spent his days up in Nairobi. A. sorted it for us.

The moment we stumbled through door, I spotted a man waving a John Wayne. I knew immediately that this wasn’t a game and if I didn’t want to leave Kenya in a casket, I’d need to sober up and do something. I knew the John Wayne was full of caps and that somebody was going to die…

See ya Thursday folks…

Stazza wrote: »

Part 3 Good Christie Hunting

Because it happened so long ago, it’s difficult to recall with accuracy the exact details, words, and thoughts. But in my mind’s eye when I freeze frame the scene and step out of myself, here’s what I see and, as much as possible, remember:

Darkness. The sweet and overwhelming scent of midnight jasmine. The clank and whirr of a ceiling fan. The door slamming behind us as we stumble into the hall. The click of a switch followed by an explosion of light:

‘American f*ckers.’

We all turn towards the door and there he is - the intruder with the John Wayne. He’s tall. Maasai tall, only he’s not wearing the tribal robe and carrying a spear; he’s wearing white Nike trainers, jeans, and a white T-shirt. Sweating like a priest in a crèche.

This is real, I think I thought. This guy’s here to end us. No messing. I catch A. and he’s right on it. In a split second he too has sobered up and understands that somebody or everybody is going to die in the next few minutes. D. and N. are slowly beginning to comprehend that this little venture into the Kenyan tourism market has soured.

The guy with the John Wayne waves it to usher us away from the hall and on into the living room. The lads walk and I wait. Your man points the John Wayne straight at my face and grunts something in Swahili. I take it to mean follow the others.

I drop my right shoulder to suggest I’m going to turn and follow the others. His eyes come off me. I suspect he needs to watch the others as they move away from him. And then snap. I grab his wrist and pull him towards me and in less than half a second, I’ve nutted him and we’re both on the deck. The John Wayne slides across the floor towards the door. Me and Maasai are now clenched in a fight to the death. Arms wrestling for control.

He’s too strong for me and I can feel him overpowering me. But he stops and rolls off me. A. reacted quickly and picked up the John Wayne. My forehead aches from the head-butt. A. starts shouting in Swahili. He waves the gun around like a looper might. I get up.

‘Easy A.,’ I say. ‘Easy lad.’

I take the John Wayne off him and point it at the Maasai lad. I whisk it, suggesting he stands. Up he comes. The Johno’s cocked. It’s heavier than I thought it would be – like a small dumbbell.

‘Do you understand English?’ My voice sounds clear and in control and remarkably I feel relaxed. There’s no panic.

‘Yes,’ he says. Blood’s trickling from his nose and his teeth are stained with smudges of blood. His top teeth are broken, probably from the head-butt. He’s shaking.

‘You need to see a dentist,’ I say.

‘What?’ The tip of his tongue races across his top teeth and he winces.

‘A dentist.’

‘Funny. You’re very funny,’ he says.

I cock my head to the right and say ‘Toodle-pip.’

‘What?’ he asks.

And before he has a chance to understand the magnitude of the moment, I squeeze the trigger and watch the magic of death. He shoots back across the room and slides down the wall leaving a trail of skull and brain and tissue and shards of what appear to be teeth, to trace the beginning of his journey into the nothingness.

‘Kill the dentist, kidda; make it a gravedigger.’

All hullabaloo breaks out and after a few seconds I wave the Johno. Everybody shuts up. And right there, in that moment, seconds after one of the most amazing things that a man can do, I realise just how insignificant and meaningless we all are. God is dead.

‘Why did you shoot him?’ D. asks.

‘He called us Americans.’

Silence.

‘A.,' I say, handing him the Johno. ‘You and the lads take the Maasai fella and get rid of him. Take him a good way out along the Lamu road and throw him in the ocean.’

To this day, it surprises me that the lads did exactly what I asked. No questions. No nonsense.

When they left, I sat out on the balcony and chewed some miraa. Miraa is great for helping you to put things in perspective. When I ran out of miraa I just sat there thinking about everything. And then in the sobering quarter light of morning, it dawned on me that I’d killed a man. I hadn’t even bothered to check his pockets to see what his name was. Did he have a family? Maybe he had children. A tear rolled down my cheek and plopped on my hand.

‘There’s no need to cry.’ Bernard’s voice invaded my thoughts.

‘What?’ I said, wiping my eye. ‘Oh, I’m not crying, I’ve got oil in my eye.’

‘I thought you were crying,’ he said. ‘Anyway, you’ll get a chance to tell Linford exactly what you think.’

‘What do you mean?’ I asked.

‘He’s addressing the Student Union next week. I’ve told him you and S. will meet him with me at the cocktail party before he addresses The Union.’ Bernard’s face lit up. ‘I’ve told him all about you. Best behaviour. Don’t let me down.’

To be continued…

Stazza wrote: »

Good Christie Hunting - Part 4

The hustle and bustle of hundreds of the world’s brightest young minds taking their seats in anticipation of Linford’s appearance struck me as odd: why did they want to see Linford and hear him talk? He was hardly England’s answer to Cormac McCarthy. What did Christie have to offer this pack of prodigies? In fact, as I watched from the balcony as the students took their seats, I almost left. But something rooted me to the spot.

Five minutes earlier, I was so close to weighing-in Linford the Legend. Fair shout, I’d had a few swifties and maybe that heightened my bravado. And now, as I sit here recalling the night, I think in all honesty, he might have given it a good go. What was it all about? Linford’s infamous Lunch Box, his banana, and the doping ‘allegations’.

In fairness, I have to say, up until this point I was pleasantly surprised by Linford’s charm, manner, and humbleness. Yes, humbleness. I’d expected a braggart and a poseur. I thought he’d be giving it the big I am, without the irony. But no, he was charming and softly spoken. Dapper and at ease in his suit, he asked about our business ventures and clients. Bernard had him well briefed. He tuned in to S’s sharp wit and laughed at my shenanigans and ridiculous questions about fights to the death between him and Carl Lewis and arm wrestles with John Regis – the usual jesting that goes on between great men and makes this little rock spin. He took the japery with good humour. It was clear to see why Bernard and Linford were friends: mutual respect founded on success and talent in their respective fields as well as a genuine bond that was hard to pinpoint.

It was only when we were having drinks in the bar minutes before he was due to speak that the atmosphere soured. And if it weren’t for my wife’s calming influence, I’d have dropped him. And as for S. (who is the closest living thing I’ve met to the lead character in Good Will Hunting, save for Paddy the Kenyan) he’d of been straight in there too. But my wife saved a scene.

Linford was talking with my wife, he was chatting with the garrulousness of a cokey on pure Columbian Top Shelf. M. gave me a look that suggested, I’m not a celebrity, get me out of here. I noticed blebs of sweat glistening on Linford's forehead. His manner had changed from dude to some sort of numpty in a Shake-and-Vac ad. I moved over to M. to make sure all was cool. I gave S. the eyes to let him know it might go off. As usual, S. was a week ahead of me.

‘…are always talking about my lunchbox, look,’ he said to M, clutching his groin. ‘And then they say I’m taking steroids. Don’t they know that if you take steroids you wouldn’t have a lunchbox like this.’

M. smiled and rolled her eyes, as if to say, what a pr1ck.

His hands were in and out of his pockets like a lad who’s just worked out what it’s all about. He swayed and puffed out his chest and rolled his head. Tysonesque. The little voice in my head started saying, ’here we go, it’s going off.

That’s all for now folks…

Stazza wrote: »

Just for you, CM ~ Long story short:

Christie started giving his talk, it lasted 10-15 mins. During the talk he spoke about how life was all about winning etc. He was very nervous. I realised that all his chat etc before he went on stage was his way of warming up etc. I felt sorry for him when I saw how vulnerable he looked up there on the stage. Pity turned to admiration: he was prepared to step well out of his comfort zone to do a favour for his friend, Bernard.

After the talk the audience were allowed to ask questions. Nobody asked the obvious ones. The unqualified journo in me wanted too, but I didn't. I had a strange drunken epiphany etc and instead I asked a question that now, with the benefit of hindsight, was kind of proleptic. I asked him something about, what if your children don't turn out to be winners, how do you deal with that? ~ all asked in a nice way etc.

He was expecting a different question; more down the obvious route. He stopped for a moment and in the silence, with all the students watching, he answered with honesty. He said, 'I don't know. I really don't know.' ETc etc.

After the talk we went to Bernard's college. S and I got hammered. I made a fool of myself - as you can imagine. According to Bernard, there were opportunities for us to get involved with Linford's crew - Nuff Respect. For a number of reasons that didn't happen.

I've left out all literary(ish) strands. The chicken's heart was meant to come into play and a few other things.

The End:D

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

Stazza

a.m 8 miles ez with Paddy the Kenyan. The youngster's feeling much better after his supercompensation week. If only he had my self belief:)

p.m 6 miles with 8x100m strides. Felt V Good on the strides and the legs had a good bit of pop to them.

*Career_Move, thanks for taking the time to put all of that together. Very kind of you.

jakek

Stazza wrote: »

Yeah, that's exactly where I was going to place them. Notice how your AT runs in Jan magically transition into LT sessions.

Also, what you did today - dropping in some AT miles before the hills is a good idea too - maybe even bring the final mile before the hills down to LT pace: Warm up ~ AT (3) ~ LT (1) ~ strides ~ 4-6x100m ~ hills ~ cool down.

And the wave tempos sort of bridged the gap between the two. Maybe they weren't doing much in terms of building fitness, but they got me out of the groove of "lazy" :P 5:20 pace for brief spurts.

I don't think 20-30 minutes of AT running really takes anything away from my ability to run the hill efforts, esepcially if I give myself a few minutes to recover. In fact, I think that little 3-miler enhanced it - I was loose, warm, heart rate was up a bit, and I was mentally engaged.

woodchopper

What are these YoYo workouts I have heard you coin?

Is there another name for them i.e alternate miles/kms or is it a workout you came up with yourself ?

Stazza

jakek wrote: »

And the wave tempos sort of bridged the gap between the two. Maybe they weren't doing much in terms of building fitness, but they got me out of the groove of "lazy" :P 5:20 pace for brief spurts.

I don't think 20-30 minutes of AT running really takes anything away from my ability to run the hill efforts, esepcially if I give myself a few minutes to recover. In fact, I think that little 3-miler enhanced it - I was loose, warm, heart rate was up a bit, and I was mentally engaged.

All makes sense. I know what you mean about those lazy 5:20 min miles:rolleyes: - if only.

Stazza

woodchopper wrote: »

What are these YoYo workouts I have heard you coin?

Is there another name for them i.e alternate miles/kms or is it a workout you came up with yourself ?

Ah, the venerable Woodchopper joins 'The Log' Feared and revered around the globe - nice of you to join in. I mean that genuinely, I'm a fan of your work/posts.

Later today, when I have a bit more time, I'll come to the YoYoYo's. But for now, they are nothing exciting or new. Maybe the way that I employ the sessions is revolutionary, but the sessions, in and of themselves, are nothing new. Sure don't you know, as soon as you put on a pair of running shoes you're following Lydiard's system:D

It would be great to have your views once I get round to polishing off the draft and I'm sure Jake would appreciate your input too.

I know I'm a terrible tease, but you'll just have to contain your excitement...

TRR

Stazza wrote: »

Ah, the venerable Woodchopper joins 'The Log' Feared and revered around the globe - nice of you to join in. I mean that genuinely, I'm a fan of your work/posts.

Later today, when I have a bit more time, I'll come to the YoYoYo's. But for now, they are nothing exciting or new. Maybe the way that I employ the sessions is revolutionary, but the sessions, in and of themselves, are nothing new. Sure don't you know, as soon as you put on a pair of running shoes you're following Lydiard's system:D

It would be great to have your views once I get round to polishing off the draft and I'm sure Jake would appreciate your input too.

I know I'm a terrible tease, but you'll just have to contain your excitement...

jeez stazza surely it would have quicker to answer his question

I take it yoyos aren't a modified beep test?

drquirky

Serious question- Ecoli and I did 2x20 mins tempo yesterday - you've laid out a ladder a few posts previous that starts w/ 2x20 and the progressive breaks down 4x10 3x8 etc etc… You say that 2x20 is the EASIEST session- how is that possible- 2x 20 is a bitch?

Are you saying though to do this tempo ladder before you add in the 5k stuff? Just curious kind of have my own plan but after running that 2x20 yesterday my curiosity is piqued as to how improvement happens when you start breaking it up….I'd see the 2x20 as the end goal session (the toughest one, no?)

Stazza

TRR ~ thanks for that but that's not quite what I'm talking about. Like I said, it's nothing new or exciting ~ it really isn't worth the effort of googling and linking and thinking and wasting energy. It's all pretty simple stuff. But, all in good time...

It's a method/way of triggering energy pathways using specific stimulus to awaken dormant fibres. Anderson Tuva introduced it to me and it has proven to be a fantastic tool. But like I said, when I'm good and ready...

TRR

Stazza wrote: »

TRR ~ thanks for that but that's not quite what I'm talking about. Like I said, it's nothing new or exciting ~ it really isn't worth the effort of googling and linking and thinking and wasting energy. It's all pretty simple stuff. But, all in good time...

It's a method/way of triggering energy pathways using specific stimulus to awaken dormant fibres. Anderson Tuva introduced it to me and it has proven to be a fantastic tool. But like I said, when I'm good and ready...

ok I'm not reading this anymore, I don't want to strung along like a horny teenager by a flirtatious cougar. Goodbye, I'm yoyoing my arse out of here!

Stazza

drquirky wrote: »

Serious question- Ecoli and I did 2x20 mins tempo yesterday - you've laid out a ladder a few posts previous that starts w/ 2x20 and the progressive breaks down 4x10 3x8 etc etc… You say that 2x20 is the EASIEST session- how is that possible- 2x 20 is a bitch?

Are you saying though to do this tempo ladder before you add in the 5k stuff? Just curious kind of have my own plan but after running that 2x20 yesterday my curiosity is piqued as to how improvement happens when you start breaking it up….I'd see the 2x20 as the end goal session (the toughest one, no?)

Ah, now that's a great question. I'm just off on the school run. I will defo deal with this tonight, as I'm going back over to explain Jake's training - the LT sessions specifically. You'll also notice Jake isn't scheduled to do the full block. And, notice too the length of the session drops - 2x20; 4x10; 3x8 (not 40 mins of work ~ 24 mins) with an extra min rec - this is where the breakthrough is made...

But just before I go - I read the session you and ecoli did and the fact that you did it over an undulating course made it more challenging. You also took extra recovery. I suspect what happened, which is normal when you first give this a go, is that you dipped over the threshold. 2 mins after finishing the second 20 mins you should feel as though you could possibly handle another 15 mins at that pace. But I must go. I will come back to you on this as it's a very good question and underpins everything.

Stazza

Right then, the idea of the last few days was to show the process of how the FIRST DRAFT of a schedule is composed. There’s no fixed schedule from a text book. Also, what I’ve outlined is specifically for Jake. I’m familiar with most of Jake’s strength/weaknesses/goals etc. Jake’s managed to get down to 1:05:45 pretty much by himself. In the last two years he hit a plateau and recently I’ve stepped in with some ideas to help push him onwards and upwards, which contributed to his recent marathon pb.

I needed to get the draft down so that Jake had/has something to consider and then, if he wanted, to work from. Now that I’ve got that out of the way, I can slow down and explain things in more detail. But, and this is important, to pluck out a single aspect of the training and tune into that alone is a fools errand.

That said, quirky has asked a great question about the 2x20 mins off 2 min, which is a great place to start. Intuitively, 2x20 mins looks harder than 4x10 @ the same pace, and as quirky explained, he found the session to be harder than expected. Simple reason – he tipped over the threshold – went too fast. I suspect the undulating nature of the loop/course came into play and also, reading from what was reported, he defo went too fast. He couldn’t have sustained the effort over 60 mins – perfectly evincing what I stated about people doing tempo/threshold runs too quickly. Look at his recent race result and then compare the paces. Bottom line, he went too hard. This is what normally happens when ‘one’ first tries this session, especially if one is preoccupied with PACE, rather than EFFORT. EFFORT is the important word here and that’s why it was capitalized during the draft notes.

So, first point, he went too hard. If you compare pconn’s recent crack at the 2x20mins you’ll see he faired better – that is, in terms of FEELING the session.

Another consideration, and this goes back to Jake – Jake is more of a slow twitcher, whereas I suspect quirky’s more inclined towards the faster end of things (I’m guessing here). In this case, a different approach is required. Also, I think quirky’s looking at the 5k rather the half and full marathon.

If I’m right, then quirky would be better adopting a different approach, more like how I’ll be doing these. Start the other way round as a foundation/intro to the session. Start with:
3x8 mins @ 60 min EFFORT - with 2-3 min finish going from 5k-3k EFFORT
4x10 mins @ 60 min EFFORT - as above
20 mins + 2x 10 mins EFFORT - as above

Now we begin. And what’s more, if quirky were to do some AT work/High End Aerobic Work, and some strides He would be in a great position to start a 5k schedule.

I’m going to be detailing my 5k schedule next week. As I go through the different elements I’ll explain the reasoning etc. I’m in no rush ~ I’ve a good idea where I’m going. But first, I want to explain the different elements and reasons behind what I’ve selected for Jake. This means, next week, I’ll be posting my 5k schedule etc and continuing work on Jake’s schedule.

Just to point out for quirky, basically, as you go down the ladder at the same effort you end up running faster, because of a number of factors. And then when you get to the 3x8 mins you’ll notice you are running faster at the same effort because your running economy will be improving due to the whole, rather than singular aspects of the training. It’s likely, you’ll move closer to 10k effort on the 3x8 mins and that’s why the extra min is there – to facilitate recovery. Your body will move at this pace naturally. Then when you come back up at the same EFFORT your pace will improve marginally, but you’ll be able to hold it better and by FEEL. Then when you get back to 2x20 mins you’ve made major gains @LT. Then you can go into the shunts. There’s more to it than that. But I hope that goes some way to answering your question.

There’s a lot more to come…

ecoli

Stazza wrote: »

Just to point out for quirky, basically, as you go down the ladder at the same effort you end up running faster, because of a number of factors. And then when you get to the 3x8 mins you’ll notice you are running faster at the same effort because your running economy will be improving due to the whole, rather than singular aspects of the training. It’s likely, you’ll move closer to 10k effort on the 3x8 mins and that’s why the extra min is there – to facilitate recovery. Your body will move at this pace naturally. Then when you come back up at the same EFFORT your pace will improve marginally, but you’ll be able to hold it better and by FEEL. Then when you get back to 2x20 mins you’ve made major gains @LT. Then you can go into the shunts. There’s more to it than that. But I hope that goes some way to answering your question.

There’s a lot more to come…

Perhaps I am missing something in my reading of these posts (if so apologies)

With regards to this by shortening the duration, increasing the pace and increasing recoveries do you not change the dynamics of the session (longer recoveries allowing the HR to drop allowing faster run paces and recovery from higher intensity without compromising feel)? Yes you might be running faster paces easier but other than improved fitness attributing for progression I am trying to understand the how the approach improves LT threshold. It would be like saying 1 mile or 2k reps at 10k pace will improve LT but in truth it will be a case of your overall fitness and as such these session done in the particular progression don't have as much bearing as a singular workout but rather to progression due to consistent training

Reading this I see your method and the conclusion but I am trying to understand the why and reasoning behind it. Your approach regarding progression up and down the ladder would be the more traditional approach and one which would be more in line with my own line of thinking (Have been progression from 3k's up throughout the plan while alternating them with longer tempo's)

Stazza

@ecoli ~ again some good points. I didn't finish what I had to say on the LT sessions and that's why I said there's lots more to come. Tonight, if I get a chance I'll address the valid points you raise. If I can't get to your points tonight, I will over the next day or two. But I will try to get back to you tonight.

theboyblunder

Stazza, im not trying to be mean here, but I do think you need to back things up.

There are a lot of ideas bandied about, with very little evidence other than your say so and an association with a decent runner in the US.

A lot of jargon too, jargon new even to a running nerd like me. This is frankly never a good sign in my book.

I know that you are doing this on your log, but you are starting to give lads advice, saying you reckon you know how they specifically should train.

Its up to them to take or leave your advice, but I think I'll ask anyway, very clearly:

1. Other than not coaching jake krong, what specifically is your coaching experience?
2. What qualifications do you hold in that area?
3. What qualifications do you hold in exercise physiology that back up your assertions and methods? For example: has anyone checked whether your thoughts on tempos lead to superior, measurable improvement? If they have, show us.

theres more to life than qualifications of course, but your advice is written with an authoritative tone. If you can back it up, then this could be the most useful thread ive seen. if you cant, then its a lad nobody seems to know (who wouldnt beat even me in a race right now) asking people to just believe him.

cmon, you are putting a lot of time into this - tell us what you are basing it on.

pa4

To be honest I think coaching qualifications are irrelevant. Plenty of good coaches without any qualifications. My coach did the level 2 last year and said he learned nothing he didn't already know.

KielyUnusual

theboyblunder wrote: »

your advice is written with an authoritative tone.

Personally, I think this is the critical part of tbb's argument. This forum is great for advice but most is given with a healthy disclaimer that the advice given is reaped from one's own experience and should be taken as such. At the end of the day, running is really an experiment of one and what works for one person won't necessarily work for the next.

P.S. Along with tbb, I also don't know what you're talking about most of the time.:).

theboyblunder

pa4 wrote: »

To be honest I think coaching qualifications are irrelevant. Plenty of good coaches without any qualifications. My coach did the level 2 last year and said he learned nothing he didn't already know.

Does your coach think he knows more than people like jack daniels, a man who did a lot of the experiments with his athletes himself?

if stazza has no qualifcations but a lifetime of documented (checkable) experience training high level athletes and access to experimental data backing all if this new stuff up, then great! Ill be begging him for advice myself.

Would really like an answer from stazza on this. If he is yoda, or a guru or whatever, it should be no trouble to show us where he got this knowledge (bearing in mind his long hiatus from the sport).

Im a teacher of sorts myself. They let me teach because im qualified to. I like our forum, If knows what he claims to know he should welcome me asking......

Stazza

@TBB
I believe that you are not trying to be mean and that you generally have the running welfare of the members at heart - I commend you for that.

Jargon? No jargon. If there are some words you don't understand then maybe it would be a good idea to look them up; Yoyo is a makey-upy name to group a number of sessions that are well known - I've said that already. The specific workouts will be explained, when I'm ready and it fits in with what I'm writing on my log.

Now, I'll do this one more time - that's it.

No coaching experience - I don't coach Jake.
I hold no coaching qualifications.
I hold no qualifications in exercise physiology, specifically.
Nobody has checked whether my thoughts on tempos lead to superior, measurable improvement.
People can believe or disbelieve/read or ignore - I'm writing on my log. I have commented on other people's logs and on the threads. I'll refrain from posting on other logs and the main threads. Not because of your concerns, rather because I haven't the time. You might be able to beat me now, but I very much doubt it.

I'm basing this on many years experience. Very little of what I'm writing is new. It's all out there; the magic is in how you put it together...


Thank you for reading.

drquirky

I gotta say- I was a massive sceptic at the start. I still don't really think Stazza is a running Yoda or anything like it but I'm kinda enjoying what he's bringing to the forum. I don't totally agree with all he is saying but I'm keeping an open mind.

Think it's pretty sweet to have a runner of Jake's standard posting his training thoughts etc and from what I can tell both lads are posting a lot of what is cutting edge in running right now.

Sometimes the forums and the logs can get stale and I'm enjoying the different perspectives being brought.

pa4

theboyblunder wrote: »

Does your coach think he knows more than people like jack daniels, a man who did a lot of the experiments with his athletes himself?

Of course not and I didn't even come near to implying that. I'm just saying that you can be a good coach without coaching qualifications. Granted most of the best coaches in the world have have their IAAF qualifications but they'll still tell you that their always learning something new. There is no one size fits all when it comes to coaching athletes, everyone is going to be different.

drquirky

Stazza wrote: »

Right then, the idea of the last few days was to show the process of how the FIRST DRAFT of a schedule is composed. There’s no fixed schedule from a text book. Also, what I’ve outlined is specifically for Jake. I’m familiar with most of Jake’s strength/weaknesses/goals etc. Jake’s managed to get down to 1:05:45 pretty much by himself. In the last two years he hit a plateau and recently I’ve stepped in with some ideas to help push him onwards and upwards, which contributed to his recent marathon pb.

I needed to get the draft down so that Jake had/has something to consider and then, if he wanted, to work from. Now that I’ve got that out of the way, I can slow down and explain things in more detail. But, and this is important, to pluck out a single aspect of the training and tune into that alone is a fools errand.

That said, quirky has asked a great question about the 2x20 mins off 2 min, which is a great place to start. Intuitively, 2x20 mins looks harder than 4x10 @ the same pace, and as quirky explained, he found the session to be harder than expected. Simple reason – he tipped over the threshold – went too fast. I suspect the undulating nature of the loop/course came into play and also, reading from what was reported, he defo went too fast. He couldn’t have sustained the effort over 60 mins – perfectly evincing what I stated about people doing tempo/threshold runs too quickly. Look at his recent race result and then compare the paces. Bottom line, he went too hard. This is what normally happens when ‘one’ first tries this session, especially if one is preoccupied with PACE, rather than EFFORT. EFFORT is the important word here and that’s why it was capitalized during the draft notes.

So, first point, he went too hard. If you compare pconn’s recent crack at the 2x20mins you’ll see he faired better – that is, in terms of FEELING the session.

Another consideration, and this goes back to Jake – Jake is more of a slow twitcher, whereas I suspect quirky’s more inclined towards the faster end of things (I’m guessing here). In this case, a different approach is required. Also, I think quirky’s looking at the 5k rather the half and full marathon.

If I’m right, then quirky would be better adopting a different approach, more like how I’ll be doing these. Start the other way round as a foundation/intro to the session. Start with:
3x8 mins @ 60 min EFFORT
4x10 mins @ 60 min EFFORT
20 mins + 2x 10 mins EFFORT

Now we begin. And what’s more, if quirky were to do some AT work/High End Aerobic Work, and some strides He would be in a great position to start a 5k schedule.

I’m going to be detailing my 5k schedule next week. As I go through the different elements I’ll explain the reasoning etc. I’m in no rush ~ I’ve a good idea where I’m going. But first, I want to explain the different elements and reasons behind what I’ve selected for Jake. This means, next week, I’ll be posting my 5k schedule etc and continuing work on Jake’s schedule.

Just to point out for quirky, basically, as you go down the ladder at the same effort you end up running faster, because of a number of factors. And then when you get to the 3x8 mins you’ll notice you are running faster at the same effort because your running economy will be improving due to the whole, rather than singular aspects of the training. It’s likely, you’ll move closer to 10k effort on the 3x8 mins and that’s why the extra min is there – to facilitate recovery. Your body will move at this pace naturally. Then when you come back up at the same EFFORT your pace will improve marginally, but you’ll be able to hold it better and by FEEL. Then when you get back to 2x20 mins you’ve made major gains @LT. Then you can go into the shunts. There’s more to it than that. But I hope that goes some way to answering your question.

There’s a lot more to come…

Gotcha- but here is the catch. Yeah I would have been wrecked running another 15 but I probably could have- also recent race results would have my tempo pace around 5:45 , that workout was run at 5:52 or 5:53- you and I both know I could hold 5:52 pace for 10 miles in a race.... I'm thinking the point you're making is move off of pace and onto effort which is fair enough...

The main question is- what exactly is gained by running it that few secs per mile slower? Felt like I got a really good workout off the 2x20 as is... Oh and am targeting sub 2:40 in dublin next yr. no spring mara for me as baby on the way in feb .., you're right though my shorter distance times are better than my mara but I'm putting much of that down to only having run 2!

theboyblunder

Ok. Thats pretty clear to be fair to you. People can make up their own minds now.

ill try to look up those words .

Stazza wrote: »

@TBB
I believe that you are not trying to be mean and that you generally have the running welfare of the members at heart - I commend you for that.

Jargon? No jargon. If there are some words you don't understand then maybe it would be a good idea to look them up; Yoyo is a makey-upy name to group a number of sessions that are well known - I've said that already. The specific workouts will be explained, when I'm ready and it fits in with what I'm writing on my log.

Now, I'll do this one more time - that's it.

No coaching experience - I don't coach Jake.
I hold no coaching qualifications.
I hold no qualifications in exercise physiology, specifically.
Nobody has checked whether my thoughts on tempos lead to superior, measurable improvement.
People can believe or disbelieve/read or ignore - I'm writing on my log. I have commented on other people's logs and on the threads. I'll refrain from posting on other logs and the main threads. Not because of your concerns, rather because I haven't the time. You might be able to beat me now, but I very much doubt it.

I'm basing this on many years experience. Very little of what I'm writing is new. It's all out there; the magic is in how you put it together...


Thank you for reading.

jakek

drquirky wrote: »

I gotta say- I was a massive sceptic at the start. I still don't really think Stazza is a running Yoda or anything like it but I'm kinda enjoying what he's bringing to the forum. I don't totally agree with all he is saying but I'm keeping an open mind.

Think it's pretty sweet to have a runner of Jake's standard posting his training thoughts etc and from what I can tell both lads are posting a lot of what is cutting edge in running right now.

Sometimes the forums and the logs can get stale and I'm enjoying the different perspectives being brought.

Thanks Dr. Q.

To address some of the questions above... here's all I'll say... Stazza and I have been communicating via e-mail since Fall 2011, when I first started to get "good" at running. One thing I really appreciated is that he was never hesitant to offer a different perspective than my own (as opposed to just give me a virtual pat on the back). We've shot ideas back and forth for a couple years, and during that time I've come to realize that he knows as much about modern marathon training as anyone I know. I consider myself a student of the sport and I'm pretty well read, but I've gotten to the point of running high 1:05/2:20 and stalled out. Stazza knows my background well and what type of running I like to do, so he was the first person I reached out to for advice about how to get down to the Olympic Trials qualifying times. So I'd consider him a high-level advisor on my executive panel . The guy knows his stuff and I'm willing to give his ideas a shot. Like Stazza said himself, he's not re-inventing the wheel here... he's piecing together a lot of the things we already know in a way that makes sense for a specific (type of) athlete. Putting those puzzle pieces together is harder than it sounds, though. Even if I get it 98% right on my own, that still leaves me short of my potential.

T runner

ecoli wrote: »

Perhaps I am missing something in my reading of these posts (if so apologies)

With regards to this by shortening the duration, increasing the pace and increasing recoveries do you not change the dynamics of the session (longer recoveries allowing the HR to drop allowing faster run paces and recovery from higher intensity without compromising feel)? Yes you might be running faster paces easier but other than improved fitness attributing for progression I am trying to understand the how the approach improves LT threshold..........

I might have a stab at answering this Ecoli.

Ill use quotes from a section from Canova's booklet linked here.

Canova Training Methods

"the intensity of the run depends on the total volume of the workouts, or on the total distance covered in each single workout"

So volume varies with intensity to equal the same overall workload.

"during workouts, we should reach paces that go from 5% to 15% beyond race pace (MP)"

The pace range is between 5-15% M pace.

"In order to raise the ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD we have to work above the threshold itself, since by only slightly stressing this mechanism we can adapt to a higher level."

So best adaption occurs by a slight stimulation. That means that the paces should go from slow to fast. i.e from 5% faster than MP to 15% faster.
Since less intensity=more volume: the longer slower tempo run is first. For an athlete well developed aerobically with fast continuous high end aerobic runs completed, this session wont be a huge challenge.

"Running faster than the speed that corresponds to 4 mmol/l, we will work a slightly higher percentage of fast twitch fibres (generally speaking FT - type IIa) and can therefore improve the aerobic characteristics of these fibres.This allows the muscles which are involved in running to use greater quantities of oxygen in the same period of time, and this will in turn raise the anaerobic threshold."

So these fibres develop aerobic characteristics, the body gets good at clearing lactate from these fibres and AnT is raised. The next faster tempo slightly stimulates more fibres at a faster speed with a not dissimilar perceived effort and so on. The last tempo should catch most type 2a fibres (and slow twitch). As you want to use greater power, and more lactate is being cleared and a longer recovery may be needed.

Canova also says that giving fibres more enduring qualities actually strengthens them. So if you run a 10k time trial and extend it by 2k per week, in 5 weeks you could run 20k at the same pace as the initial 10k time trial.
And you could run the time trial considerably faster now, and by extension a 10k race.

This is why the tempos are now extended again. The maximum amount of available (made available by the hill reps sessions) fibres have been given aerobic qualities and now all these fibres will be given stronger endurance characteristics by extending the tempos. The pace should now stay the same, or slightly faster perhaps while they are extended back up. The result is, as Stazza says, a serious boost to LT.

Hadd insists on thoroughly developing each range of fibres before moving onto the next. Lydiard implied as much by using transitions between phases. Kellogg talks about always moving through the fibres correctly and in sequence.

That's what some of this discussion has confirmed for me. Marathon training should evolve safely and thoroughly fibre by fibre....using tools...including triggers.....

But Stazza has missed a trick! Distracted my his Linford memoirs no doubt. Small but potentially big enough to blow a crater sized hole where his next phase should be!! The bazucca is ready, the missiles are lined up and it aint no Massai Warrior aiming this time! Ill explain later in more detail. Tomorrow we begin.......

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac: