The Running Master

TFBubendorfer

Stazza wrote: »

Each time a cycle is completed the reps improve – eg ~
Mile rep progressions from 5:20 start point
5:20
5:16
5:12
5:08
5:04
5:00
4:56
4:52

And what happens when reality refuses to play ball and the figures don't come down as beautifully as this?

Sacksian

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

And what happens when reality refuses to play ball and the figures don't come down as beautifully as this?

+1

Sorry, long-time lurker - fascinated by the stuff you're posting! - but I'd have the same concern as TFBubendorfer

There is a huge amount of discussion of Horwill's stuff on letsrun and the consensus seems to be that it doesn't stack up in reality. I've found very few accounts of people trying it and it working for them and lots of people seem to think it's irrelevant to anyone but elites (if even). I love multi-pace sessions but just not sure if his schedules and plans can deliver on their promises (or whether they're even possible).

Some choice quotes from discussion of his plans and books:

Generally recognized as clinically insane, unless inserting at least one easy recovery day between each session, and even then a real stretch for anyone not on some pretty serious "stuff".

He took a decent concept (multi-pace training) and created a Frankenstein monster that no one uses.

Day 1 - (Aerobic, 80% VO2 max). Run half-marathon distance 64secs per mile slower than for one's best mile time. Example: best mile time 4:10, run 5:14 / mile or as near as possible to this.

Day 2 - (Anaerobic, 110% VO2max). 2 x 1 x 400 + 1 x 800 + 1 x 300, at 15 secs per 100m throughout. Take 30 secs rest after 400m, 60secs rest after 800m and a lap walk after 300m before repeating.

Day 3 - (Aerobic, 90% VO2 max). Run 10km 48 secs / mile slower than for one's best mile time. Example: best mile 4:10, run 4:58 / mile.

How could Day 1 & 3 even be possible? A half marathon at 5:14 per mile for a 4:10 miler? Most 4:10 guys couldn't do that for 7-8 miles much less 13.6. Day 3 calls for a 10k at 4:58 pace for that same 4:10 miler (which would be a significant PR for all of the 4:10ish guys on our team). Am I missing something about his program? Just seems impossible for most MD guys to me.

I have a copy of "Obsession for Running" and his plan is not made for most normal human beings. I have a hard time believing that anyone, including Hutchings and Coe, really followed what Horwill outlines. They may have followed the theory somewhat but not at the intensity consistently prescribed.

In his article Horwill mentions training for improving MaxVO2:
3 X 1500m @ 3000m race pace with 3min rest
4 X 2miles @ 10km race pace with 90sec rest
6 X 1000m @ 5km race pace with 1min rest

And his HM session: run 13 miles at HM race pace!

These sessions have to be at least as hard as running the race itself, if not more difficult. The guy was nuts

Even that 4 x 1m @5k pace off 90 secs seems crazy to me. I realise a lot of people claim that it's a standard 5k workout but I would struggle to run 4 x 1m@5k + 10 secs off 3 mins. Having said that, almost all the logs I read on here have sessions that look crazy to me!

Anyway, best of luck with the journey - I'll be following it closely.

Stazza

dna_leri wrote: »

I'll watch for these sessions with interest.
Will you do multiple paces in one session or separate.
Either way you should be in good shape to take on any distance from 800 to 10K.
Will you do any track races this summer?

No, I'll be keeping the sessions separate. I understand why you ask, but my main aim is to get into the necessary condition. If I were younger and running in Championship races etc I would mix up the sessions and add in different workouts. This is just about getting down to 15:22 fitness.

I hope to get in some 1500's and a 3k's just got to work that bit out:) If not, it'll be TT's.

I doubt I'll be in good 800 shape, I'm kind of hoping that the 1500 workouts might be enough. But if I need to bring them in, I will. I'm preparing for them now by doing strides and I'll introduce other sessions as I move from Feb through June.

Stazza

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

And what happens when reality refuses to play ball and the figures don't come down as beautifully as this?

Good question, Thomas. I’ll address the subtext of your question first (talent and age/injury/all those things) and then I’ll deal with the question as it warrants a response.

I have the talent to do the times. In fact, getting down to 5:00 min for 4x1 mile off 90 secs will not present too much difficulty – just a bit of time. 4:56-4:52 is where the real challenge awaits. That’s why my original goal was only 15:35, which isn’t really all that. But, because I’ve only been back running a few years and I’m nearly 50 and I’ve spent most of my adult life drinking, smoking, and eating rubbish etc, then it’s not too bad. That said, the goal is to go sub 15:22 and I’ll need to get down to those times. Can I do it this year? Honest answer, not sure. Next year, all things being equal, not a problem. No false braggadocio.

Of course, being nearly 50 presents a number of challenges but I’m confident that I have the right methodology to overcome those challenges and in fact, the wit and knowledge to turn them into opportunities. That said, like all of us, I am to a certain extent at the whim of Lady Luck.

The whole idea of multi-tier/multi-pace training isn’t hocus pocus, it’s the norm. I’ve utilized this method on many athletes and with great results. I recently used a modified and watered down version of this system on somebody like you, Thomas - not for a 5k but for a HM. They smashed their pb for the half off limited mileage. That said, if the guy had done more mileage I suspect he would’ve run even faster. Jake can verify this as he knows the guy and ran in the same race.

Now, that proves squat.

But I used the system when I made a brief comeback to the sport in 1999/2000. After 6 months of getting my weight down, and 8 months training, 2 of which were using this exact multi-pace system, I ran 33:17 for the Blenheim 10k (2000 – if anybody wants to look up the result) and 15:39 for 5000m at Iffley Road Oxford. Now, in the grand scheme of things, these times are crap but off a few months training, I think you’ll agree they’re not too bad. And, the times for the workouts pretty much came down the way I’ve shown. Each session helps the next session – they’re specific and progressive. Of course, not exactly, but over the course of the cycles they pretty much do come down like I’ve described.

So, what happens if I get down to 5:00 mins for the mile efforts and things stall – quite possible and I’ve taken this into consideration. I’ll employ triggers – these will depend on where the identifiable weaknesses are showing. If I’m not hitting the 800m pace sessions – I introduce the appropriate triggers in the form of 400m specific sessions etc.

If I were a 1500m – 5000m runner reading this and struggling to get under 4:00 mins for 1500m or under 15 for 5k, I’d be all over this like a mod on a sock puppet:D. It’s where it’s at. This system needs to be adapted to the individual and requires a full season to reap the best rewards.

Still proves squat. Time will tell…

Stazza

@Sacksian - I've read all the stuff on Letsrun and agree with most of it. That said, they don't understand Horwill. There's more to Horwill's systems than you read on Letsrun. Try the BMC's website, that's in the link on the MD thread. Years of reading there.

On the 4x1 mile off 90 secs - it's a standard session. The possible reasons why you struggle with the session might be down to misjudging pace and a lack of aerobic strength, which comes from winter training = LT, AT, hills, endurance reps etc.

On Horwill, one needs to take more recovery days and pluck out the sessions and modify it to their individual strengths and weaknesses, and that's off the back of some solid winter training. I wouldn't suggest anybody follow Frank's (I knew him personally so I can use his christian name) exact schedules but that doesn't mean that the system is wrong - variations of the system are what the world's middle distance runners employ, even Sonia did multi-tier training.

Schedules need to be designed for the individual.

Sacksian

Stazza wrote: »

@Sacksian - I've read all the stuff on Letsrun and agree with most of it. That said, they don't understand Horwill. There's more to Horwill's systems than you read on Letsrun. Try the BMC's website, that's in the link on the MD thread. Years of reading there.

On the 4x1 mile off 90 secs - it's a standard session. The possible reasons why you struggle with the session is down to misjudging pace and a lack of aerobic strength, which comes from winter training = LT, AT, hills, endurance reps etc.

On Horwill, one needs to take more recovery days and pluck out the sessions and modify it to their individual strengths and weaknesses, and that's off the back of some solid winter training. I wouldn't suggest anybody follow Frank's (I knew him personally so I can use his christian name) exact schedules but that doesn't mean that the system is wrong - variations of the system are what the world's middle distance runners employ, even Sonia did multi-tier training.

Schedules need to be designed for the individual.

Fair enough - we're all experiments of one and all that.

Sorry, I should clarify that I think the idea of multi-pace training is brilliant. I'm just going by Horwill's plans that I've seen. And I agree the BMC site is a fantastic resource but some of their schedules for MD appear similarly nuts to me. Maybe if I was 20 years younger, they wouldn't!

Re: 4x1mile @5k pace off 90 secs - I think the the reason I struggle with this is that I'm probably just a bit soft when it comes to training, rather than aerobic endurance being a problem - pacing isn't either. 12-16x400m off 30 secs seems to suit me more - 16 has the same volume but allows much more concentration on form and rhythm - I guess it's horses for courses.

Best of luck, I'm hoping to get somewhere close to 15:30 myself before the end of the year so I'll be watching with interest.

Stazza

Sacksian wrote: »

Fair enough - we're all experiments of one and all that.

Sorry, I should clarify that I think the idea of multi-pace training is brilliant. I'm just going by Horwill's plans that I've seen. And I agree the BMC site is a fantastic resource but some of their schedules for MD appear similarly nuts to me. Maybe if I was 20 years younger, they wouldn't!

Re: 4x1mile @5k pace off 90 secs - I think the the reason I struggle with this is that I'm probably just a bit soft when it comes to training, rather than aerobic endurance being a problem - pacing isn't either. 12-16x400m off 30 secs seems to suit me more - 16 has the same volume but allows much more concentration on form and rhythm - I guess it's horses for courses.

Best of luck, I'm hoping to get somewhere close to 15:30 myself before the end of the year so I'll be watching with interest.

12-16x400m 0ff 30 secs is a solid session; I'll be doing that session in June. And I know what you mean about being younger. Good luck with the 15:30, let us know how you're going...

pa4

When do you plan on introducing the sessions? You seem to have a good base of mileage in the legs at the moment

Stazza

I had a great base developing from Sept through Nov (100-110 mpw with LT and AT sessions, plus a sprinkling of LT shunts). But then I did the Puck Warriors 10k and picked up an injury, which resulted in me missing all of Dec and gaining 10lbs – that’s one of the problems you face when you get older and go from 110 mpw to nothing and carry on eating everything in sight.

So, I had to start over. But to answer your question, I’ll introduce some aerobic sessions in March - Kellogg type sessions of 3x(6x20secs/30secs/40secs off equal rec and 400 jog b/ween sets with the occasional 95% TT from 2mins-8mins and on to 20x1min on/off) + some non-plyo hill circuits – my design based on Cuban boxing circuits; Dave Sunderland used a variation of these circuits at a Midlands training weekend that I attended many years ago. I’ll carry on developing my AT/High End Aerobic work along with LT stuff.

The hill circuits will transition to specific hill sessions. The aerobic reps etc will pave the way for introductory endurance sessions on the track (Lactate shunts based on the system employed by Anderson Tuva* combined with some endurance sessions that Paul Tergat utilized; you’ll like these, in fact, next week I’m introducing a modified Tergat session – see it you spot it.). I’ll also be working the funnel from the other end – the speed and strength side of things. The idea is to maintain the mileage in and around 100-110, which is doable.

All of this and much more should ease the way into the demands of the multi-tier work.

*Anderson Tuva is a Kenyan coach/runner.

Stazza

Wednesday 5th Feb

a.m. 8 miles ez. Legs felt a bit heavy. The wind made it tough going.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed. Little bit of bounce in the legs and opened it up slightly on the second half – nothing too fancy. 50 min nap after lunch:)

A.I.S. before and after both runs

(14)

Thursday 6th Feb

a.m. 8 miles ez with Paddy the Kenyan. Had a good chat about his final sessions for the Tralee Marathon. The man’s looking like a lean, mean, running machine.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed with drills and 6x100m pick-ups in the second half of the run. Felt good. 50 min nap after lunch:)

AIS before and after both runs

(14)

Friday 9th Feb

a.m. 9.5 miles with 5 in the High End Aerobic Zone. 2.5 miles to get going and then raised the pace. Didn’t really have that skimming across the ground feeling. Pretty laboured and hard work. Still a good way to go.

p.m. Planned on doing 6 miles which would have helped take me over the 100 mark for the week but opted for an ez 3.5. Sound choice. Towards the end of the shakeout I started to feel the zip in the legs and considered pushing on for the 6 but decided to play it safe. 50 min nap after lunch:)

(13)

AIS before and after both runs

Saturday 8th Feb

a.m. 8 miles ez. Legs a bit heavy. Just got it done and out of the way.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed. Good run felt great. Held back because of next week’s training. 60 min nap after lunch:)

AIS before and both runs.

(14)

Week's summary.

98 miles for the week with two intro workouts (one LT workout and a High End Aerobic Zone workout) and a session of strides. Dropped the strength stuff this week so that I could usher in the ‘workouts’ without any problems. 13 runs (6 doubles). Good week.

ThebitterLemon

Not a bad week for an auld lad

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Not a bad week for an auld lad

The secret's in the naps:) Which I forgot to mention.

pa4

What time would you usually do your morning and evening runs at?

ThebitterLemon

Stazza wrote: »

The secret's in the naps:) Which I forgot to mention.

You start to forget a lot of things at our age!

Stazza

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

You start to forget a lot of things at our age!

That's so true, it's frightening. Just trying to remember why I'm typing this

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

What time would you usually do your morning and evening runs at?

On weekdays I'd go out about 09:30-40 for the first run and then I'd generally go out about 5:00 p.m. for the second. But that's going to change slightly next week. On Tuesday and Friday (the workout days) I'm doing Triples:), so I'll go out at 06:00 a.m. for the first run, 10 a.m. for the second, and 6 p.m. for the third - that's the Tergat stuff I'm introducing.

pa4

Stazza wrote: »

On weekdays I'd go out about 09:30-40 for the first run and then I'd generally go out about 5:00 p.m. for the second. But that's going to change slightly next week. On Tuesday and Friday (the workout days) I'm doing Triples:), so I'll go out at 06:00 a.m. for the first run, 10 a.m. for the second, and 6 p.m. for the third - that's the Tergat stuff I'm introducing.

You have a good break between runs so. What sort of training will you be doing on your triple days?

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

You have a good break between runs so. What sort of training will you be doing on your triple days?

Tuesday will look something like this:
The first run will be an easy 5.
The second run will be a 7 with 5 in the High End Aerobic Zone.
The third will be a 6 with 3.5 around LT.

With the Tuesday runs, as I get fitter, I'll blend the second and third runs and then make the third a shakeout with some strides.

Friday will look something like this:
The first run will be 5 easy.
The second will be whatever it is depending on the workout (no more than 8)
The third will be a shakeout of 5 miles.

It probably sounds crazy to most people, but it actually makes a lot of sense, is safer from an injury POV, and the benefits are huge. It's not about the mileage, it's about the benefits of the three runs and how they work together etc.

Stazza

Sunday 9th Feb

a.m. 14 miles ez. Bit of a slog fest really. Got to make sure I keep getting these in and developing them. Found this harder than the 20 milers I was doing back in November. The positive is that I’ve lost a bit more lard; about 5lbs more and I’ll be back where I was in November. This week I’ll be spicing things up a bit – provoking a stimulus from the auld machine…

(14)

AIS before and after run.

Stazza

Monday 10th Feb

a.m. 8 miles ez with Paddy the Kenyan. PtK only has a few ‘major’ sessions left before taper madness begins: he’s got a beauty this weekend; don’t envy him:). It’s been great to watch his improvement since mid October –December and then from Jan until now.

p.m. 6 miles relaxed. Felt good but held back for tomorrow’s ‘big day’.

AIS before and after both runs.

(14)

Tuesday 11th Feb

6a.m. 5 miles ez. Started out in the darkness and the wind and the rain and the sleet and the hail and the snow @ about 9:30 pace, thinking you is one crazy mudder. But as I eased through the gears I began to enjoy that wonderful feeling of being alive.

9:30 a.m. 7 miles with 5 in the High End Aerobic Zone. Eased into the first mile – felt fine. Then picked things up and kept a good pace going for the next 5 miles. Felt strong but not too fluent.

6:30 p.m. 6.5 miles with 3.5 miles around LT and final surge into the realms of 5k effort. Really enjoyed this run and felt good. Wind was a bit tough in the final 1.5 miles but I wouldn’t let it spoil my day. This, ladies and gentlemen, is where it’s at – triples!

AIS before and after all runs – b/ween AISing, showering, running, eating, and getting in a 60 min nap, I don’t know what happened to the day.

(18.5)

statss

triples :eek:

pa4

How did you find the triple day?

Stazza

pa4 wrote: »

How did you find the triple day?

Not a bother:)

On Friday, I'll give myself a little more time between the first and second run: my bro was over from England on a golf thing so I had to link up with him for brunch - this put a bit of pressure on in the morning. Also, if I go for the second run at 10 a.m. I should be able to get in a quick power nap before heading out on the second run:)

I found that I had to hold back on the final run, which was great. Not in the slightest bit tired and yet I've worked the AT zone and LT. Legs feel great. In fact, after all that AIS I feel like a gymnast:D

jakek

Stazza wrote: »

b/ween AISing, showering, running, eating, and getting in a 60 min nap, I don’t know what happened to the day.

There's barely time to get on the internet during a day like that!

Nicely done.

AuldManKing

Hey Stazza

You may have covered this in an earlier post (pretty sure you did);

What specific AIS stretches do you do - does it vary, target specific muscles each time etc etc
How long do you spend on AIS before & after running (honestly now )

Stretching ain't my forte.

Stazza

AuldManKing wrote: »

Hey Stazza

You may have covered this in an earlier post (pretty sure you did);

What specific AIS stretches do you do - does it vary, target specific muscles each time etc etc
How long do you spend on AIS before & after running (honestly now )

Stretching ain't my forte.

Haha – love the, honestly now:D.

When I stopped running in 2000 I had an injury that I couldn’t sort, so I jacked it in. I had a problem with my left medial collateral ligament (MCL). When I started back, just over two years ago, it flared up again and I found that it took 2-3 miles before I could get going faster than 10 min pace. So I tried Ger Hartmann’s Hope on a Rope routine. Within 3 days it worked. Niggle gone and I could run straight from the door. I’ve since added a few extra ‘moves’ to the routine – due to a neural problem I picked-up from doing Magness’ hill circuits. These extra ‘moves’ are simple but extremely effective.

I do my AIS routine before every run, pretty much without fail. There has been the odd occasion when I haven’t had time – I normally do some quick dynamic stretching when this happens.

Same applies after runs – pretty much all the time. That said, if my dinner’s nearly ready or if I’m in a rush, I’ll do some quick static stretching.

The AIS routine takes 10 mins. I’d suggest starting with Hope on a Rope and then if you ‘look-up’ AIS you’ll find more exercises and select the ones you think might be appropriate. But the key is to do them properly. Sometimes it’s easy to rush and then you’re wasting your time. You need to think about what you are doing. Don’t fire through them. Here’s what I think is the most important part of what Hartmann says:

The stretch is repeated eight to 12 times for optimal results. The benefit of repetitions is to increase blood flow oxygen, and nutrition to the muscle tissues. In effect, AIS is a warm-up in itself.

Apart from the three-second limit, AIS is unique in that it uses the neuromuscular system via 'reciprocal innervation' and 'reciprocal inhibition' to maximize the stretch. In simple terms, when you do the hamstring stretch (Stretch No 2), the front of the thigh (quadriceps) lifts up the leg (reciprocal innervation). The quad as prime mover is activated, thus rendering the hamstring (its opposite) relaxed (reciprocal inhibition).

Therefore, the muscle you wish to stretch, the hamstring, is relaxed - and muscles stretch best when relaxed. By utilizing the prime mover, or opposing muscle group, you invoke the neuromuscular pathway to assist the stretch.

Secondly, while continuing the contraction, you use a rope to gently enhance the stretch. The important term here is to stretch gently and regularly; the cardinal rule of stretching remains unchanged: never force yourself beyond the point of light discomfort.

Phil Wharton is great on AIS too; here’s another cheeky little routine for you.

I guarantee, it'll make a difference - for the good...

pa4

Here's the 'hope on a rope' link Stazza is on about. I started it about 2 weeks ago and find it great, it got rid of a niggle I had in my glute in a few days. Definitely worth trying even for the anti stretchers!

AuldManKing

Thank you.

Went through the range of them tonight. Legs felt 'alive' afterwards.

digger2d2

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thank you.

Went through the range of them tonight. Legs felt 'alive' afterwards.

Does the Missus have you doing this in preparation for Valentine's Day AMK? :D

AuldManKing

The missus has, but the wife has no interest.........