History...

Sparks

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Sparks, if it wouldn't be too much to ask. Could you give us all a brief history lesson on what happened with these and how it played through?

All of it is up on this site (it's not really "history" so much as "recent events"). A quick search for IPSA will haul up a dozen or more threads from then. The EGM that ended IPSA happened in December 2008 (it was delayed from its originally planned date) - the banning of licencing restricted short firearms came in with the CJ(misc) bill which was published six months later.

Sparks

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

I have no official figures but at a guess Id say you are looking at a few hundred anti supers.

Actually, I would have thought that ten would have been stretching things a bit. Only about 0.5% of licence applications have issues and there are (if I remember right) something like 190 Supers.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

The whole thing was interlinked.

In the way that everything is - but that still doesn't mean what you think it means.

Are you a member of NARGC?

No, which is why I'm not touching it with a ten foot pole.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Maybe DOJ don't want an FCP type setup. Divide & conquer suits them a lot more I reckon

The DoJ created the FCP arrangement, we burned it.
Honestly, do we all have bad memories or something? This isn't interpreting ancient Mayan hieroglyphics from a thousand years ago, we were all there when this happened. It wasn't even that long ago.

Dian Cecht

"we" ? a collective noun.............strange use of language as I wasn't involved BUT the actions of those who were is affecting me.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

The majority of voters would probably agree to us having NO firearms. How do you think we're being screwed so easily?

Poor PR for a start. For example, we knew four years before it happened that PR was IPSA's greatest potential weakness. I still honestly believe that had we gone down the bullseye shooting route first, gotten the fullbore pistols established, then we could have moved on the IPSC events.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

"we" ? a collective noun.............strange use of language as I wasn't involved BUT the actions of those who were is affecting me.

Fair point. "We" refers to most of the posters here (the majority really) and pretty much everyone on the NGB committees.

BillyBoy13

Dian Cecht wrote: »

You don't understand yet, do you?

Read this post again................................

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88419792&postcount=22

OK I have read it already, you say some AGS dont want it and either does DOJ.

Not a problem. We outnumber AGS and as we all know ministers/political parties will do anything for extra votes. And ministers are the ones who can sign a new SI tomorrow if he felt so inclined.

Dian Cecht wrote: »

What you're saying won't make a damn bit of difference. The "management" in Tullamore won't rock the boat as they've too much to loose

Surely more relaxed laws = more shooters which would = more money for said management? Or have said management got vested interests somewhere along the lines?

Dian Cecht wrote: »

How do you think we're being screwed so easily?

Im not sure. But it seems to me that we are screwing each other over.

As far as I know there are no groups which specifically lobby against us (perhaps the hunters would have animal cruelty/rights groups on their backs but thats a non-issue really).

So with nobody against us (as in nothing official), a government that you yourself have said are already talking and looking after certain shooting groups.... Im finding it hard to imagine that this stalemate we find ourselves in is not gameover.

Grizzly 45

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

O
Not a problem. We outnumber AGS and as we all know ministers/political parties will do anything for extra votes. And ministers are the ones who can sign a new SI tomorrow if he felt so inclined.

Brave man if he does....
You can be assured the cheif commisioner would be in to have a" friendly chat",with lots of "advice" to any minister planning such a career changing plan and what the consequences could be for Irish society. Especially to a minister who wouldnt know the butt from a barrel on a gun,and all he knows about them is what he saw in a film on telly last nite.
Apprently one such minister back in the 1980s was going to literally do this and rescind the TCO and to Heck with Northern Ireland,and the rest..He was told in no uncertain terms by the cheif comissioner that AGS would literally resign enmasse and he would find himself without a police force if he did so!!!
Whether this story is a legend,or a true event is as always up to debate,but it was a story circulating back in the biblical times of Ireland in the 1980s,where we communicated by word of mouth and letters.
BUT I wouldnt be surprised if there is a grain of truth in it,and such a mindset would exist,as it never really seems to be clear here who is exactly in charge of the Gaurds?? Is it the minister for justice or the cheif comissioner??Always seems to be a murky legalistic point that.

Im not sure. But it seems to me that we are screwing each other over.

The classic FK you I'm allright Jack,Me Fein and appeasement syndrome common and prevailent in this great little country of ours.

So with nobody against us (as in nothing official), a government that you yourself have said are already talking and looking after certain shooting groups.... Im finding it hard to imagine that this stalemate we find ourselves in is not gameover.

The arguement isnt with the denizens of the Dail. They can change every four years and are transient people in power who realise all politics is local,and you get into power by pandering to parish pump politics[sorry for the alliteration].
You need to look at the real permanent govt in this country for the problems.:rolleyes:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The arguement isnt with the denizens of the Dail.

Have you forgotten the lessons learnt with Deasy and Mitchell and even de Burca that fast?
The denizens of the Dail are amongst the worst of the problems and the best of the solutions, depending on the mood of the public towards us.
(And that's a fickle thing indeed, given how little they know of us)

Dian Cecht

Sparks wrote: »

Poor PR for a start. For example, we knew four years before it happened that PR was IPSA's greatest potential weakness. I still honestly believe that had we gone down the bullseye shooting route first, gotten the fullbore pistols established, then we could have moved on the IPSC events.

I'd fully agree with that.

Dian Cecht

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

OK I have read it already, you say some AGS dont want it and either does DOJ.

Not a problem. We outnumber AGS and as we all know ministers/political parties will do anything for extra votes. And ministers are the ones who can sign a new SI tomorrow if he felt so inclined.

Surely more relaxed laws = more shooters which would = more money for said management? Or have said management got vested interests somewhere along the lines?

Im not sure. But it seems to me that we are screwing each other over.

As far as I know there are no groups which specifically lobby against us (perhaps the hunters would have animal cruelty/rights groups on their backs but thats a non-issue really).

So with nobody against us (as in nothing official), a government that you yourself have said are already talking and looking after certain shooting groups.... Im finding it hard to imagine that this stalemate we find ourselves in is not gameover.

Outnumbering the Gardaí doesn't make a difference. You'll have to look at our political system and try & understand how the Dail works to realise what you're suggesting won't work.

Fine Gael made LOADS of promises to sort things out if they got into power not least of which was to repeal the stag hunting ban that the Greens got through just before their demise from the Dail. Nothing has been done though.

Now it looks like they're gonna sort it out alright, But I don't think "we're" going to like their solution very much.

In my experience most ranges do certain disciplines and unless you're into to the ones they do you're not that "important".

The reason it's not game over is ..................... farmers. A big majority of the firearms licenced in the state are 12 gauge shotguns & 22 rifles to farmers for vermin control. Never mind NARGC the biggest defacto shooting organisation would be IFA. And as most of them only want shotgun & 22 rifles there not bothered about pistols, target shooting etc.

As for screwing each other over, there's been some of that, dependent on your point of view, but let's not go there.

BillyBoy13

Grizzly, from where Im sitting I cant say I blame the minister for what he did. I looked up Barron Shortt you mentioned. I saw the photographs with his SAS looking bodyguards with semi-autos and pistols protecting him in his 'castle'. I looked at some extreme disciplines as you mentioned with manhole covers etc Im a shooter and I wouldn't even be happy with some of the stuff that was going on back then- I can only just imagine what a conservative, non-shooting minister was thinking.

And the good thing was he actually didnt just say "right lets ban the whole lot outright". He actually sat down and had talks with the FCP and tried to come to a solution which we were actually on the verge of doing until somebody said something that screwed everything up.

However, nobody has said anything here that makes me think we cant at least get back into negotiations with the government.

Yes, the NARGC burnt bridges but hopefully nothing a reshuffle of the top lads couldn't fix.

But as Sparks has said, we need to focus on something like bullseye and build up very slowly.

And the second thing Im wondering about is, where do we currently stand with the newest mess we are in.

Im not too familar with it, in brief my understanding is the 180 lads put in applications as usual, they got refused- they go to court but it turns out AGS had altered the FCA's and then we did a deal outside of court where the altering of documents is forgotten about in exchange for the licences?

All these court cases etc I dont know if thats the right route at all. We are building up enemies. Yes, I know if you are one of the lucky ones who possess a licence you dont want to lose it. I understand that. I really do. But all the money and effort just to fight your own corner. If we could put that money/energy and time into negotiations with ministers and not court cases with supers I think we might actually get somewhere. And results with negotiations are permanent, the court case results only get your licence for another 3 years.

Dian Cecht

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Yes, the NARGC burnt bridges but hopefully nothing a reshuffle of the top lads couldn't fix.

Great idea but from what I've heard a non runner as Des can't be removed from his position as "Director" and if he is it'll cost NARGC approx. €3,000,000. Not sure how much truth is in that.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Have you forgotten the lessons learnt with Deasy and Mitchell and even de Burca that fast?
The denizens of the Dail are amongst the worst of the problems and the best of the solutions, depending on the mood of the public towards us.
(And that's a fickle thing indeed, given how little they know of us)

No I haven't ,but were they actually in power to do anything or just yappy little lap dogs trying to get attention??I rate the worst ministers we ever had on these matters was Dessie O Malley,and Dermot Aherne. The rest just kept recycling the firearms acts and TCO problem thru their IN trays or used it proably as a door stopper,or for supporting the wood worm eaten ministerial office desk leg.
The mood of the public is by and large indifferent to us,bar a major shooting incident,it will stay that way,and apart from the usual rabble rousers and moronic comments on Journal.ie or after hours here,thats pretty much how it will stay IMO.

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

O

The reason it's not game over is ..................... farmers. A big majority of the firearms licenced in the state are 12 gauge shotguns & 22 rifles to farmers for vermin control. Never mind NARGC the biggest defacto shooting organisation would be IFA. And as most of them only want shotgun & 22 rifles there not bothered about pistols, target shooting etc.

The IFA had a rep apprently at the FCP table too if I remember correctly and I think his only contribution was "Is there any grants for gun safes for farmers?":rolleyes:

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The IFA had a rep apprently at the FCP table too if I remember correctly and I think his only contribution was "Is there any grants for gun safes for farmers?":rolleyes:

Yes, I heard he wasn't at too many meetings alright. Which is why there is/was a perception that NARGC were the 'big player' in the FCP.

Needless to say there isn't a grant for gun safes which is why a single shotgun only needs to be broken down with a trigger lock on it & doesn't need to be in a gun safe His one concern and his members were well looked after it seems.

IMVHO EVERY firearm should be stored in a safe/cabinet.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Yes, I heard he wasn't at too many meetings alright. Which is why there is/was a perception that NARGC were the 'big player' in the FCP.

But not for that reason, and Grizzly should know better because it was him I said it to before.

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=BillyBoy13;88426602

And the good thing was he actually didnt just say "right lets ban the whole lot outright". He actually sat down and had talks with the FCP and tried to come to a solution which we were actually on the verge of doing until somebody said something that screwed everything up.[/QUOTE]

Actually apprently he did say that and there was somthing done to arrange this situation that we are in now at the last minute.I dont know what it was,but it certainly has the usual organisational suspects claiming credit for it.

However, nobody has said anything here that makes me think we cant at least get back into negotiations with the government.

Negoiate away ,just remember the minister can then take your points and use them against us,chuck the report in the shredder or sit on it or act on it. We wont be an NGB,Quango or anything else with any sort of influence thats for sure.

Yes, the NARGC burnt bridges but hopefully nothing a reshuffle of the top lads couldn't fix.

Dream on there...

But as Sparks has said, we need to focus on something like bullseye and build up very slowly.

Proably way to late to matter now. EG As shown on another thread here about GSG 1911 pistols in .22lr being refused by Supers as it is claimed they are "combat pistols". YET for bulls eye shooting the MAINSTAY gun is the model 1911 in various different calibres.

And the second thing Im wondering about is, where do we currently stand with the newest mess we are in.

Im not too familar with it, in brief my understanding is the 180 lads put in applications as usual, they got refused- they go to court but it turns out AGS had altered the FCA's and then we did a deal outside of court where the altering of documents is forgotten about in exchange for the licences?

Not really,the fact that because of the collective stupidity and borderline sedition against this state by some Cheif superintendants in doing so,it put at risk just about every criminal conviction on going and in the last decade,and would have given every "RA head and criminal a chance to quiery the evidence of their trials as being contaminated or tamperd evidence... How do you think that would have looked if it had progressed to its conclusion for AGS and public faith in the force??Not that it mattered much in the long run just about everyone of the 180had to go back to the DC for their firearms which should have been an automatic grant after this whole charade.

All these court cases etc I dont know if thats the right route at all. We are building up enemies. Yes, I know if you are one of the lucky ones who possess a licence you dont want to lose it. I understand that. I really do. But all the money and effort just to fight your own corner

.

Seeing that thats what it boils down to...Maybe if somone or organisation was paying for my case,you might ave a point,but seeing its me fein on this one and my money.I really dont think anyone has a say in this matter.Also,too bad if we are making enemies,I am like all others using the approved legal mechanism of the law of this land in this act to appeal.Their bad if they dont like it.The law is there for everyone.Lots of laws I dont like but I am bound to obey them.

If we could put that money/energy and time into negotiations with ministers and not court cases with supers I think we might actually get somewhere. And results with negotiations are permanent, the court case results only get your licence for another 3 years.

So IOW I give X thousands to some organisation to negoiate with ministers on our collective behalf. Who have the power to say "Thanks lads,very intresting,now we'll do it MY way or the highway.!":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks,I'll keep my money and waste it every three years and do my own thing then rather with like minded individuals,rather than keeping somones ass in a comfy chair who goes and chats to the minister occasionaly.

Simple fact is until one of these shooting organisations stand and fight for my corner,or even make an effort to show up in court cases for the DC,they are as as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
IOW show me some results that you are justified of my money...
Learn one thing " Promises are like pie crusts,made to be broken ." When it comes to politicans and politics. That goes for our side and their side.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

But not for that reason, and Grizzly should know better because it was him I said it to before.

Sorry,must remember to back trawl all my points just to make sure they are 100% accurate in future.:rolleyes:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually apprently he did say that and there was somthing done to arrange this situation that we are in now at the last minute.I dont know what it was,but it certainly has the usual organisational suspects claiming credit for it.

Indeed, but the ones who have best claim on it are actually the firearms unit at the DoJ.

And 3..2...1... nooo, they're the worst, you're an idiot, they would never help us, they're the enemy[/12-year-old]

Truth is, they heard it first, they knew how unworkable it was, and they blunted the worst of it. Everyone else got involved after that point, if only by hours or days.

However, nobody has said anything here that makes me think we cant at least get back into negotiations with the government.

In theory, yes.
In practice, how, exactly, do you plan to convince everyone that they won't be sitting down, giving up months and years of their life, only to see it all pissed away again by one party at the table?
And I don't just mean every shooting body, I mean everyone - the AGS, the DoJ, the Minister, the ISC, all the non-shooting bodies.

And be specific there Grizz, no hand-wavy ****e that's grand over a pint but meaningless in the real world.

YET for bulls eye shooting the MAINSTAY gun is the model 1911 in various different calibres.

Because bullseye shooting is a US discipline and the 1911 is the most commonly used pistol there for economic and historical reasons.
In the rest of the world (ie. where we live), other pistols are available, many of which are far more accurate than a stock 1911 (why do you think there's an entire US industry of gunsmiths accurising the things?) and for us here, they can be cheaper to get hold of. The 1911's a grand handgun, but are you really going to tell me it's more accurate than any other fulbore pistol?

And the second thing Im wondering about is, where do we currently stand with the newest mess we are in.

Standing would imply that the slurry wasn't already deeper than we're tall. If our heads are above it at the moment Grizz, it's only because we're floating in it and there's no solid ground under our toes...

Not really,the fact that because of the collective stupidity and borderline sedition against this state by some Cheif superintendants in doing so,it put at risk just about every criminal conviction on going and in the last decade,and would have given every "RA head and criminal a chance to quiery the evidence of their trials as being contaminated or tamperd evidence... How do you think that would have looked if it had progressed to its conclusion for AGS and public faith in the force??Not that it mattered much in the long run just about everyone of the 180had to go back to the DC for their firearms which should have been an automatic grant after this whole charade.

I love how you keep thinking that this is a point we can harp on about. Shooters agreed to the deal saying no wrongdoing occurred. You didn't? Tough poop. This is the nature of court cases and the reason they should be something everyone tries to avoid - the one single chap standing up in court on his own with no duties to anyone else in the community, can set a precedent that burns the whole community, and we all just have to suck it because there's no legal way to say "whoa there, he wasn't speaking for us".

And you think that 180-odd court cases where that was true in every single case was a good idea for us as a whole? It was about as wise to use that as a political tool, as it would be to walk across the M50 during rush hour blindfolded, 180 times.

Thanks,I'll keep my money and waste it every three years and do my own thing

Sorry, what was that you said only five or six posts back about <bleep> you Jack, I'm allright?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sorry,must remember to back trawl all my points just to make sure they are 100% accurate in future.:rolleyes:

You realise, that's the bare minimum standard if you were in talking to the powers that be, right? That those little errors you keep making and ignoring would, if you were chatting to the minister who has a whole staff to keep him briefed, leave you looking like an ignorant fool when he responds?

Seriously, for years -- and you can look them up in the Oireactas archives -- we had people who came along, thought this was a simple gig, and who'd convince some new TD to ask "Oh, if the TCO was temporary, when do we get our firearms back?" as though this was some deep revelation and utterly guaranteed to fix everything in one fell swoop. And each and every single time, the Minister of the day trotted out the exact same response - "What are you talking about, the TCO ended decades ago, they can't have the firearms because we don't issue licences for those kind of firearms, public safety, IRA, blah, blah, blah [between the lines]what kind of TD are you, you'd endanger the ones who voted for you and they'll see that now[/between the lines]". And we lost another TD who could have been useful to us because we made him or her look a fool in the Dail.

And y'know, that's another point you should have remembered...

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

In the rest of the world (ie. where we live), other pistols are available, many of which are far more accurate than a stock 1911 (why do you think there's an entire US industry of gunsmiths accurising the things?) and for us here, they can be cheaper to get hold of. The 1911's a grand handgun, but are you really going to tell me it's more accurate than any other fulbore pistol?


Shooters agreed to the deal saying no wrongdoing occurred.

How dare you sir, i had a single stack .45 1911 and absolutely loved it. I can see why the americans have been in love with them for over 100 years.

Second point, What deal and why agree to it ? The nargc had the doj/gardai on the ropes after the admission of form tampering, why make a deal that no wrongdoing occurred ? If the shoe was on the other foot and the gardai had evidence that false statements had been made on licence apps , they would have finished us off very ruthlessly.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

How dare you sir, i had a single stack .45 1911 and absolutely loved it. I can see why the americans have been in love with them for over 100 years.

And that's fine. If it fits you, that's grand.
But the point was, if you don't have 1911s, you aren't barred from bullseye shooting. Plenty of people shooting bullseye without 1911s. They just use other handguns of the same caliber. And as Sig owners might happily point out, some of those handguns, while more expensive than 1911s, do shoot better than them out of the box. (You get into the whole accurised custom-work scene and all bets are off).

Second point, What deal and why agree to it ?

This one, which we've talked about ad nauseum before on here in multiple threads.
As to the whys and wherefores, I'm not the one to be asked, I wasn't involved in the decision in any way.

Dian Cecht

From what I'm hearing no. 7 is a strong possibility :eek:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76844439&postcount=74

Grizzly 45

[Q

UOTE=Sparks;88430356]You realise, that's the bare minimum standard if you were in talking to the powers that be, right? That those little errors you keep making and ignoring would, if you were chatting to the minister who has a whole staff to keep him briefed, leave you looking like an ignorant fool when he responds?

Speaking of MIS Quotes...

However, nobody has said anything here that makes me think we cant at least get back into negotiations with the government.

And the second thing Im wondering about is, where do we currently stand with the newest mess we are in.

I never said those points.They were Dian's points.So address him on them.
If you are going to be a pendant,do at least credit the people who said them...

Seriously, for years -- and you can look them up in the Oireactas archives -- we had people who came along, thought this was a simple gig, and who'd convince some new TD to ask "Oh, if the TCO was temporary, when do we get our firearms back?" as though this was some deep revelation and utterly guaranteed to fix everything in one fell swoop. And each and every single time, the Minister of the day trotted out the exact same response - "What are you talking about, the TCO ended decades ago, they can't have the firearms because we don't issue licences for those kind of firearms, public safety, IRA, blah, blah, blah [between the lines]what kind of TD are you, you'd endanger the ones who voted for you and they'll see that now[/between the lines]". And we lost another TD who could have been useful to us because we made him or her look a fool in the Dail.

So you are just saying pretty much what i have said before....point being????

Because bullseye shooting is a US discipline and the 1911 is the most commonly used pistol there for economic and historical reasons.
In the rest of the world (ie. where we live), other pistols are available, many of which are far more accurate than a stock 1911 (why do you think there's an entire US industry of gunsmiths accurising the things?) and for us here, they can be cheaper to get hold of. The 1911's a grand handgun, but are you really going to tell me it's more accurate than any other fulbore pistol?

Take everything out of context...Much??:rolleyes:
I said it is the mainstay firearm of the disipline in various calibres and was trying to point out that this is a good reason to apply for one,as some Supers are claiming its a "combat pistol." Didnt say that nothing else is suitable ever here. Nothing to do with the US or where it comes from or whatever.

I love how you keep thinking that this is a point we can harp on about. Shooters agreed to the deal saying no wrongdoing occurred

.

Errr NO..I think if you asked any of those people not one would agree with that underlined sentiment,you will find that is the media /ministerial SPIN
on what happened.


Snip

And you think that 180-odd court cases where that was true in every single case was a good idea for us as a whole? It was about as wise to use that as a political tool, as it would be to walk across the M50 during rush hour blindfolded, 180 times.

As I have said many times before,what was the option for those people that took those cases?? "Oh we'll just lie down and think of Ireland and the other ingrates can carry on and piss on us as they walk by for the betterment of our sport." Is that what people are really suggesting here??

Sorry, what was that you said only five or six posts back about <bleep> you Jack, I'm allright?

Ever hear the expression" if you cant beat them join them??"

Think you were at the same meeting with me in Tullamore a few years back when we were told when asking the NASRPC chairman at the time what could it do for us and the answer was "Well nothing really get yourselves a lawyer to fight your cases." So I did as did others,it wasnt long that after we won the first round down in Limerick that NASRPC as ringing up looking for an article for their newsletter about this. Given no problem either by another member here. And that was it..Havent seen much help or advice or other from any organisation in an offical capacity or has anyone else FTM in the Limerick/Clare areas.

So I really think it is a bit rich that somone should suggest that I should give my money to them "for the greater good of Irish shooters"so somone has a cushy number in Dublin and might occasionally listen to the minority guys and then be told Shut the Flip up about taking personal cases to use YOUR type of firearm as you might make us enemies by using the legal means there in law... THATS VERY Iirsh....:D:D:D:D:D
Tell ya what...
When some organisation comes down and says they will fight my case and provide the legal team to do so and pay for it in Limerick DC.THEN I'll listen to them and see what their T&C are.IF I should accept,by some reason,THEN they will have a say,otherwise,I'm sorry those who pay call the tunes.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

And that's fine. If it fits you, that's grand.
But the point was, if you don't have 1911s, you aren't barred from bullseye shooting. Plenty of people shooting bullseye without 1911s. They just use other handguns of the same caliber. And as Sig owners might happily point out, some of those handguns, while more expensive than 1911s, do shoot better than them out of the box. (You get into the whole accurised custom-work scene and all bets are off).


AHEM!!!!:D:D
http://www.eurooptic.com/sig-sauer-1911.aspx

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Speaking of MIS Quotes...

However, nobody has said anything here that makes me think we cant at least get back into negotiations with the government.

And the second thing Im wondering about is, where do we currently stand with the newest mess we are in.

I never said those points.They were Dian's points.

Erm.....................they were Billyboys actually

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ever hear the expression" if you cant beat them join them??"

Jasus, wasn't only a week or two ago you were down on me for that now you're every bit as bad???? Welcome to reality

When I asked NARGC for help I was told to get a solicitor and in the same correspondence I was given me Mr. Egans' details.............others seem to have no hassle getting them to take on their cases though................still makes me wonder why I'm a member of that organisation?????

Grizzly 45

[Q

UOTE=Dian Cecht;88433445]Erm.....................they were Billyboys actually

OK, apologies my mistake on that one..:p:o

Jasus, wasn't only a week or two ago you were down on me for that now you're every bit as bad???? Welcome to reality

But werent you saying like please stop going to the DC as it might upset others as well?

When I asked NARGC for help I was told to get a solicitor and in the same correspondence I was given me Mr. Egans' details.............others seem to have no hassle getting them to take on their cases though................still makes me wonder why I'm a member of that organisation?????

Wonder are you living outside the Pale??? Seems to be another Dublin/the rest of the place split even here too???

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[Q


OK, apologies my mistake on that one..:p:o



But werent you saying like please stop going to the DC as it might upset others as well?



Wonder are you living outside the Pale??? Seems to be another Dublin/the rest of the place split even here too???

Fair dues. Simple mistake. Sure nobody got hurt

I was more so saying that as you've been to the DC & others to the HC, that you have upset DOJ/Minister of Justice and now we're (as in other shooters) are going to/ might have to pay the price with some more draconian legislation.

I'm very much outside the Pale. That's hardly the deciding factor :mad: