Power Meter Brands

mossym

Inquitus wrote: »

My stages reads consistently with my powertap, and it's a much better solution imo. Most people don't have a significant L/R imbalance and its generally linear, obviously there will be outliers and it will not be perfect for everyone.

thats the big question i guess. some people are reporting consistency, some are reporting big variations. i'm not sure if there is any number as to L/r variance. your comment on most people, what's that based on


btw,i'm not against stages. if it works,it works. there is just data that says it doesn't. data that says it does doesn;t render that data invalid. it just means it doens;t work for everyone. its a lot of money to be spending on a chance

Sarz91

Inquitus wrote: »

My stages reads consistently with my powertap, and it's a much better solution imo. Most people don't have a significant L/R imbalance and its generally linear, obviously there will be outliers and it will not be perfect for everyone.

I wish I could use stages but I've a pretty big imbalance between my L/R. Had my right ACL replaced twice and months of taking it easy on the right knee led to this biased pedal stroke. I'm really looking forward to using the Brim Brothers Zone and working on the imbalance.

Inquitus

Sarz91 wrote: »

I wish I could use stages but I've a pretty big imbalance between my L/R. Had my right ACL replaced twice and months of taking it easy on the right knee led to this biased pedal stroke. I'm really looking forward to using the Brim Brothers Zone and working on the imbalance.

I'd go with the Garmin solution if you need L/R, pending a better review of the Brim Brother's solution, the DC Rainmaker test had the power readings all over the shop.

BenEadir

New BrimBros website to coincide with the launch at Interbike last week complete with "How To" video's etc - http://www.brimbrothers.com/how-to-videos/

It looks like the looooooooooooooong wait may have been worth it. Only time and sales will tell!!

mossym

BenThere wrote: »

New BrimBros website to coincide with the launch at Interbike last week complete with "How To" video's etc - http://www.brimbrothers.com/how-to-videos/

It looks like the looooooooooooooong wait may have been worth it. Only time and sales will tell!!

you did see the post before yours right? how was it worth it? on what evidence exists, they've delivered a product with issues(which a lot of people on here said for a long time would be the case), and at a pretty expensive price compared to what was expected. i reckon time and sales will tell, but for a different reason.

the big winner from interbike, providing they can deliver on what they showed, looks to be 4iii. same functionality as stages, better acuracy than brooks brothers, for a very attractive price.

godtabh

mossym wrote: »

you did see the post before yours right? how was it worth it? on what evidence exists, they've delivered a product with issues(which a lot of people on here said for a long time would be the case), and at a pretty expensive price compared to what was expected. i reckon time and sales will tell, but for a different reason.

the big winner from interbike, providing they can deliver on what they showed, looks to be 4iii. same functionality as stages, better acuracy than brooks brothers, for a very attractive price.

4iiii need a full test along with Brim but my money would be on them

BenEadir

mossym wrote: »

you did see the post before yours right?

I did better than see the single graph extracted from the DC Rainmaker article before my post, I actually read the whole of the DC Rainmaker article and in relation to the issue of the readings being "all over the place" I noted in the article that:-

"After seeing the recorded data this morning, I met up with Barry Redmond from Brim Brothers to discuss the findings a bit. He noted that what I saw with the variability was an issue they’ve sporadically seen on a handful of test users, and they were working on a software fix to address it. It stems from some of the shear force being exerted on the pedals being incorrectly used in the regular ride power output. He noted that they won’t ship until the software update is implemented, which they currently plan for October."

mossym wrote: »

they've delivered a product with issues

Again, having read the entire article it's clear the unit DC tested is not a "final delivered product" but a penultimate pre-production unit. DC put it best when he said "At this point, as one can see, it’s a bit tough to make any accuracy statements on Zone. On one hand it’s a near-final production unit on a first ride, and yet on the other it’s still not final – so things could change."

mossym wrote: »

(which a lot of people on here said for a long time would be the case)

knockers will always be knockers it's all they do :rolleyes:

mossym wrote: »

at a pretty expensive price compared to what was expected. i reckon time and sales will tell, but for a different reason.

I personally think we should applaud their efforts given they're a local Irish company taking on some very well established global players. Rather than do the narrow minded "told you so" crap why not focus on the positives? If the accuracy issues are ironed out in the final production unit I bet there will be a market for their product. Sure it's more expensive than the 4iiii but if you have more than one bike and value a L/R system which transfers between your bikes without any effort you might prefer to buy one Brim Bros system for $999 than a number of cheaper systems for different bikes.

Inquitus

BenThere wrote: »

"After seeing the recorded data this morning, I met up with Barry Redmond from Brim Brothers to discuss the findings a bit. He noted that what I saw with the variability was an issue they’ve sporadically seen on a handful of test users, and they were working on a software fix to address it. It stems from some of the shear force being exerted on the pedals being incorrectly used in the regular ride power output. He noted that they won’t ship until the software update is implemented, which they currently plan for October."

That would explain any over-readings on the graph, it does little to explain the massive under-readings that go along with them. A pretty poor debut, and given DC Rainmaker is probably the most popular source of PM news, it will require these issues to be properly addressed and sorted before a sensible buyer would consider them.

Also the price doesn't factor in the cost of buying multiple sets of speedplay pedals, also the fact they only fit strapped shoes again means extra investment for anyone with differing shoes. The price point is quite high too...

mossym

BenThere wrote: »

I did better than see the single graph extracted from the DC Rainmaker article before my post, I actually read the whole of the DC Rainmaker article and in relation to the issue of the readings being "all over the place" I noted in the article that:-

"After seeing the recorded data this morning, I met up with Barry Redmond from Brim Brothers to discuss the findings a bit. He noted that what I saw with the variability was an issue they’ve sporadically seen on a handful of test users, and they were working on a software fix to address it. It stems from some of the shear force being exerted on the pedals being incorrectly used in the regular ride power output. He noted that they won’t ship until the software update is implemented, which they currently plan for October."



Again, having read the entire article it's clear the unit DC tested is not a "final delivered product" but a penultimate pre-production unit. DC put it best when he said "At this point, as one can see, it’s a bit tough to make any accuracy statements on Zone. On one hand it’s a near-final production unit on a first ride, and yet on the other it’s still not final – so things could change."

knockers will always be knockers it's all they do :rolleyes:

as there are numerous references to reading the whole article, i presume based on some idea it gives greater clarity, then worth pointing out i've read the whole thing too. so even footing there.

so, ever worked at a show like this? launching new products? i've done lots of them. i'm at ces, the biggest consumer electronic show in the world, every january. rule #1. if the demo isn't rock solid, don't show it. no demo is better than a bad demo. a small fraction of the people they would hope to sell to actually saw it at the show. out of that small segment, there was at least one issue. what are the chances if this was a really rare event that they just happened on one guy who could break it, who also happened to be one of the most read reviewers of this type of gear on the planet? if that was the case, then i hope they weren't betting on the nags, cause that is the worst luck in the world .

the fact that it has an issue isn't the end of the world. it just means it's not ready for market. and a model that doesn't have issues will have to be seen before anyone can claim that it "looks like the looooooooooooooong wait may have been worth it." Right now the only model that has been seem has an issue.

BenThere wrote: »

I personally think we should applaud their efforts given they're a local Irish company taking on some very well established global players. Rather than do the narrow minded "told you so" crap why not focus on the positives?

i applaud the entrepreneurship. but in terms of the execution, maybe it's better not to apply the paddy factor, where you say ah they didn't really make but sure they are irish so we'll leave them off. i've no issue with them succeeding, the more successful options on the market the better, as it will accelerate software platform development(think strava, training peaks), and provide cost competition. However, much as that's a good thing, dumping hardware that's not ready onto the market (as has been done so often recently ) is not something we should accept as consumers. if you see that as narrow minded then so be it.

BenThere wrote: »

If the accuracy issues are ironed out in the final production unit I bet there will be a market for their product. Sure it's more expensive than the 4iiii but if you have more than one bike and value a L/R system which transfers between your bikes without any effort you might prefer to buy one Brim Bros system for $999 than a number of cheaper systems for different bikes.

if the accuracy errors are ironed out, then it will get a fair shot at being a success. inquitus's last post is bang on, it's a poor debut, and until it is proven these errors are fixed, through a more robust test from dc rainmaker or others, then i don't think the wait for brim brothers to deliver is done, and new buyers should be very wary of it. once that's fixed, then it'll have a fair shot at success, i think it's priced too high, given the pedal/strap requirements but that's just my opinion. i'm seeing more people not like it than like it though. i think they've missed the mark.

BenEadir

mossym wrote: »

so, ever worked at a show like this? launching new products?

Yes and yes actually and I think there are a lot more positives than negatives from the demo DC Rainmaker did. My experience is that start up technology companies in particular use industry events to show what products they are planning to launch and usually have pre-production models for demonstration purposes which still need some tweaking. Not a biggie especially if the issue will be fixed via a SW update. http://oneplus.net are a good example. Start up high end smartphone company. Killer design and great OS partnership with CyanogenMod. They issued 100 pre-production phones to industry reviewers/opinion makers who all gave it positive reviews but commented on some basic issues which needed to be fixed such as poor sound when making a phone call (kind of a basic function of a phone!) and some battery drain etc. That didn't affect demand which far outstrips supply so the phone can only be purchased by invite. Even then the first production batches had issues which the company dealt with via OTA updates. It's rare that a start up launches their first product and it's 100% optimised working perfectly in pre-production. Even the great Apple had issues with V1 of their iPod and iPhone.

mossym wrote: »

if the accuracy errors are ironed out, then it will get a fair shot at being a success.

I agree entirely.

niceonetom

Seems like Brim made a real error in giving a pre-production unit to Rainmaker - he can make or break a product in a single post. My suspicion is that they were so keen to dispel the persistent cries of "THEY HAS NOTHING BUT VAYPOUR WAREZ LOL DERP" from certain quarters (you know who your are) that they jumped the gun a bit.

There seems to be a new PM being announced every week these days so the time pressures must be tough. Everyone is afraid of getting gazumped and so we're seeing things that are not ready for primetime.

In my view they've proved their concept works, the installation process works, and that they are very close to production. Unfortunately the software side of things clearly still has a few bugs. I don't doubt they can fix it. It is after all a software issue.

As for the price, it looks very competitive to me. It's a lot cheaper that the Garmin or Pioneer units which is it's most direct competitors (L/R balance), and is the most swappable of any of the systems needing literally no swapping at all. If I had a couple of bikes with speedplays it's be strong contender. And the footplate method isn't inherently married to speedplay, there will no doubt be versions for look and/or shimano in due course.

Is there a cheaper way of equipping all of your bikes with a direct-measure PM? That doesn't involve swapping components before every ride?

And why are so many people rooting for them to fail? I'm rooting for Brim to do well, and I'm also rooting for 4iiii, Garmin, Stages, SRM, PowerTap and all the rest. The more products that come to market the better we'll ALL be as consumers.

Leroy42

I agree that first launch doesn't have to mean perfect, it certainly doesn't seem so these days. It would appear that it is better to hit the market, or at least the industry, with some product for review rather than nothing, once the product has some semblance of finality about it.

The only issue I would have is how long it can actually take to iron out the issues. It is not simply rebooting it. A redesign may be required, a new writing of software etc and this can take time. They 1st have to find the cause of the problem (had they known the cause they wouldn't have let it out) and then find a solution to it.

Stages got a bad first review from DC Rainmaker, in fact he did the unusual in that he redid his review when the later model came out. So a 1st poor review, for whatever reason, particularly given its limited scope, is not something tobe unduly worried about. It does, however, point to there being a further dealy until the product is finally released, and then another period to allow for real life reviews (such as how the plates deal with day to day use, walking, cross country, tri, severe weather etc.

So anybody waiting for this product may well have another couple of years before they can confidently take the plunge.

Stages came in to a portion of the market that was pretty much unclaimed. The other PM's were more expensive and/or limited to wheel builds etc. This gave them a bit of room to work with. BB's is coming into an increasingly crowded marketplace and from what I can see haven't taken advantage of what is a unique selling point. The concept is great, but limiting it to a particular pedal type has reduced the market even further. The price point doesn't give it any advantage over the others in the market

godtabh

niceonetom wrote: »

And why are so many people rooting for them to fail? I'm rooting for Brim to do well, and I'm also rooting for 4iiii, Garmin, Stages, SRM, PowerTap and all the rest. The more products that come to market the better we'll ALL be as consumers.

I don't think anyone is rooting for them to fail. My issues have been documented with them already. I would have gotten over most of them easily enough but the price point is too high.

Inquitus

That stem is uberlong

godtabh

Took me nearly a year to make up my mind



From swim cycle run. Down to €600. Come December time on the bike is going to be very limited so want to make best use of it

Not worried about the l/b.

Would rather buy local but Brim priced itself out so SCR is the next best thing.

tunney

niceonetom wrote: »

In my view they've proved their concept works, the installation process works, and that they are very close to production. Unfortunately the software side of things clearly still has a few bugs. I don't doubt they can fix it. It is after all a software issue.

Does your view having any data to back it up? Anything that has been seen says "this does not work"

niceonetom wrote: »

Is there a cheaper way of equipping all of your bikes with a direct-measure PM? That doesn't involve swapping components before every ride?

if you view the BB as valid then may I suggest a powercal?

niceonetom wrote: »

And why are so many people rooting for them to fail? I'm rooting for Brim to do well, and I'm also rooting for 4iiii, Garmin, Stages, SRM, PowerTap and all the rest. The more products that come to market the better we'll ALL be as consumers.

No one is? But likewise people are saying that the Garmin Vectors and Polar pedals have significant accuracy issues and that Powertap have durability issues.

Just because Barry is Irish doesn't mean we should be more favourable?

godtabh

tunney wrote: »

if you view the BB as valid then may I suggest a powercal?

I have a powercal. Being using it for about 6 months. The readings I take with a pinch of salt (very often get spikes of 1000+ watts) but the trends are important.



You can see your progress as you work towards something. It also gives you feedback on fatigue which I found useful.

I would recommend it to anyone interested in putting the toe into the Power Meter waters and so how it can be useful

tunney

godtabh wrote: »

I have a powercal. Being using it for about 6 months. The readings I take with a pinch of salt (very often get spikes of 1000+ watts) but the trends are important.



You can see your progress as you work towards something. It also gives you feedback on fatigue which I found useful.

I would recommend it to anyone interested in putting the toe into the Power Meter waters and so how it can be useful

Now I remember why I've steered clear of the Cycling forum

godtabh

tunney wrote: »

Now I remember why I've steered clear of the Cycling forum

Good luck so

Beasty

tunney wrote: »

Now I remember why I've steered clear of the Cycling forum

Cut out comments like that

doozerie

Some interesting stuff from the blog of the guy who developed the 4iii power meter, this section suggests it does work with carbon cranks (well, one carbon crank at least) which bodes well for Campagnolo fans:

We needed to package it, and admittedly the packaging isn’t perfect for the drive side and the last few years we’ve seen a mess in bottom brackets and now we’re seeing a mess on the chain ring bolt patterns causing incompatibility of some manufacturers cranks. This is sad. However I’m glad to say the last 3 generations of Shimano 105 (5600, 5700, 5800) work, Ultegra (6600, 6700, 6800 {this is actually epoxied together!]), and Dura-Ace (7800, 7900, 9000) all work. The latest Deore XT works for the Shimano MTB front. The 10 Speed SRAM Rival OCT works (my original workhorse on the prototype front) and the X9 looks good. FSA Energy is good too but their new 5 bolt asymmetric and SRAM’s 11 speed put bolts where we want the sensor. We are still searching for a solution. On the Carbon front the SRAM S900 works but we haven’t finalized our testing. We will be recommending using the calibration load cell that comes with the kit every year at least to check calibrations depending on crank arm.

Right now the product works, but in my bosses opinion is huge physically, so there will be a shrink in size and weight when we ship in a few months. This will also improve install-ability and compatibility as well as easing access to the battery.

pprendeville

godtabh wrote: »

Took me nearly a year to make up my mind



From swim cycle run. Down to €600. Come December time on the bike is going to be very limited so want to make best use of it

Not worried about the l/b.

Would rather buy local but Brim priced itself out so SCR is the next best thing.

Best of luck. It would be nice if you (or anyone else) could come back in 6 months time and tell us about/quantify your improvements. I'm pretty close myself to getting one but have a feeling Stages could go a bit lower price wise and don't want to splash yet only to see them drop in price later. Also, it will be LSD for the next. Few months with no emphasis on top end power (at least that's the plan).

godtabh

pprendeville wrote: »

Best of luck. It would be nice if you (or anyone else) could come back in 6 months time and tell us about/quantify your improvements. I'm pretty close myself to getting one but have a feeling Stages could go a bit lower price wise and don't want to splash yet only to see them drop in price later. Also, it will be LSD for the next. Few months with no emphasis on top end power (at least that's the plan).

If you use strava (or I am sure similar) you can produce something like this and see the improvements

godtabh

Stages have released 3 new models.

godtabh

This is an interesting read

SRM to look at sub $1000 units?

DC Rainmaker has a point. THe future flurry of "affordable" power meters may see the likes of SRM do something a similar. PC8 Lite maybe?

easygoing39

@ gobtabh,how do I get a 105 Stages for €600 on swimcyclerun,as the 105 is €665 on their website when I looked??
Thanks in advance.

tunney

godtabh wrote: »

This is an interesting read

SRM to look at sub $1000 units?

DC Rainmaker has a point. THe future flurry of "affordable" power meters may see the likes of SRM do something a similar. PC8 Lite maybe?

I cannot see to stay away.

The PC8 is not a power meter. It is a head unit. It is a head unit that costs more than most of the other actual power meters.
It will be about €850

They are introducing a PC8Lite but that won't be any cheaper. It will just have less features and be smaller - the pro riders have requested it, they don't care about GPS and uploading to Strava.

SRM won't rush into the lower price points. There is still a nice for power meters that work reliablely and consistently and thats where SRM slots in.

They will eventually, I suspect, introduce a power meter priced lower. But they will never be cheap.

If you think about it too even the likes of stages aren't that cheap. 600 euro for one leg, 1200 for two legs.

godtabh

tunney wrote: »

I cannot see to stay away.

The PC8 is not a power meter. It is a head unit. It is a head unit that costs more than most of the other actual power meters.
It will be about €850

They are introducing a PC8Lite but that won't be any cheaper. It will just have less features and be smaller - the pro riders have requested it, they don't care about GPS and uploading to Strava.

SRM won't rush into the lower price points. There is still a nice for power meters that work reliablely and consistently and thats where SRM slots in.

They will eventually, I suspect, introduce a power meter priced lower. But they will never be cheap.

If you think about it too even the likes of stages aren't that cheap. 600 euro for one leg, 1200 for two legs.

If we are being pedantic Stages don't do two leg power meters.

tunney

godtabh wrote: »

If we are being pedantic Stages don't do two leg power meters.

If we are being pedantic measuring one leg isn't an accurate and consistent way to measure power.

Leroy42

While of course getting a full two legged power reading is the perfection, it can also be said that a true measure can only be taken when all the elements involved in the measurement have been recalibrated, something that is inhernetly a problem for all but lab testing (and pro teams I assume).

What stages, PM2 etc are hopefully providing is a consistent reading. The number itself doesn't matter. Even if my L/R split is 70/30, and thus the PM reading is actually far too high (as it is taken the 70X2 rather than 100%) this will only be an issue in a stand alone test. It doesn't even matter if your pedalling style changes under different loads as again it just an indicative number.

They say power is power everywhere in the world, but while that is true it is really w/kg that is the real reading. Looking back at my cycles using the Stages and comparing the numbers to the calculators the numbers don't tally (unsurprising really) but I do see is a fairly consistent reading for power when looking at my training runs. Sutton, Killakee etc. The average W for the climbs are always the in around the same for the same sort of times (there are variances I assume due to wind, effeciency of the bike, tyre pressures etc).

It would cause issues if I trained on a Stages and then raced with SRM as the numbers would not tally.

I would assume that many people getting stages and the like are using it as their sole PM, as such the actual number itself doesn't matter. As said before it could be 12 oranges or 20 pens.

Based on training I know I can put out 200w for 10 minutes (per stages). In an event I will aim for 200w for ten minutes (again using Stages). Surely that is the point of a PM, to help train, and the gauge effort during events.