Power Meter Brands

CramCycle

tunney wrote: »

My mistake. This paper is based on one subject and while it was done in a scientifically valid way the small sample set makes the research inferior to the test the DCRainmaker did that day on that ride and what the lad you know from the club did in the shed.

TBF it does not make it any better than DCRainmaker either. The only benefit is that it was peer reviewed but that's not all it's cracked up to be in the modern publishing world either. (Caveat I haven't completely read through either so I could be talking out of my ass here).

Both studies have huge flaws, the number of participants, the number of trials, statistical relevance of some of the data. The best thing that summarises the paper is the conclusion stating "appears" as that all it is. Its a trend but it's far from statistically significant from my brief overview (the abstract).

It is a common issue with Sports Science studies where you often have only one participant.

I remember Kieron Collins doing a talk on it and it was an interesting discussion, talking about the issues with Sports Science and study of data. You could only take inferences out of the majority of papers, which are enough for a layman but not for most scientists but then you had such narrow parameters for acceptable subjects you could never get a large enough field of participants and had to settle for this.

fat bloke

What's the consensus on this new Garmin Vector S? Sounds like a really clever idea to apply some vaseline to power meter entrance. Buy one pedal and get going, and if you want to or feel you need to, get the other pedal.

1200 quid is a huge entry spend (at the end of the day, they're still only fcukin pedals!!! ). 700 or whatever they decide to be half, is a much more palatable , or at least much less unpalatable, price point.

Hmmzis

I think it's just a reaction from Garmin seeing how successful Stages are with their single leg version. It's more expensive than Stages but would suite if you have carbon cranks. On the other hand, if you think you would prefer if both legs are taken into account then a p2m is the way to go (or wait till 4iiii relese theirs, should be even cheaper than p2m for both legs).

harringtonp

Hmmzis wrote: »

I think it's just a reaction from Garmin seeing how successful Stages are with their single leg version. It's more expensive than Stages but would suite if you have carbon cranks. On the other hand, if you think you would prefer if both legs are taken into account then a p2m is the way to go (or wait till 4iiii relese theirs, should be even cheaper than p2m for both legs).

Yes cannot understand why people are talking about one leg not too easy too install/configure solutions when you have

http://www.power2max.de/europe/en/Produkt/bestsellers/power2max-fsa-gossamer-road/

EC1000

harringtonp wrote: »

Yes cannot understand why people are talking about one leg not too easy too install/configure solutions when you have

http://www.power2max.de/europe/en/Produkt/bestsellers/power2max-fsa-gossamer-road/

But if I go for a group spin today on my roadie and do intervals on my TT tomorrow - that's a bit impractical, right?

Garmin solution addresses that issue anyway - whatever about all the other issues.

mossym

EC1000 wrote: »

But if I go for a group spin today on my roadie and do intervals on my TT tomorrow - that's a bit impractical, right?

Garmin solution addresses that issue anyway - whatever about all the other issues.

why? can swap a crankset over in a couple of minutes? undo non drive side crank, remove, driveside and chain rings slide out, slide into other bike, and reattach non drive side crank

and i'd add, no messing about with the vector torque requirements, isn't it an awkward tool/method?

can't get why people think crankset PM's are difficult to move between bikes.

lennymc

if all your bikes run a compatible BB system then the crank option is probably easiest, but if you run different bb (press fit v cups etc) then crank isnt going to work unless you look at adaptors and stuff.

mossym

lennymc wrote: »

if all your bikes run a compatible BB system then the crank option is probably easiest, but if you ring different bb (press fit v cups etc) then crank isnt going to work unless you look at adaptors and stuff.

yeah, my cannondale tri bike is bb30, road bike is a 24mm, so installed a rotor bb30 to 24 adapter, namely this one,
http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/products/bb30-24_bottom_bracket.html

and it's been perfect.

fat bloke

mossym wrote: »

why? can swap a crankset over in a couple of minutes? undo non drive side crank, remove, driveside and chain rings slide out, slide into other bike, and reattach non drive side crank

and i'd add, no messing about with the vector torque requirements, isn't it an awkward tool/method?

can't get why people think crankset PM's are difficult to move between bikes.

If it works for you then fair play to you but when I'm going for a spin I find it taxing enough to remember where I left my helmet, find my other glove, pump the shaggin tires, make sure the garmin is charged and get a dump in before doing up my bib shorts and putting on pocket-stuffed jersey!

Throw in a crank change as well? A couple of minutes me hole, it'd take me that long to find the key for the shed to get the toolbox where I may or may not have left the crank removal tool.

mossym

fat bloke wrote: »

Throw in a crank change as well? A couple of minutes me hole, it'd take me that long to find the key for the shed to get the toolbox where I may or may not have left the crank removal tool.

sure you'll need to find the key to get the bike out of the shed anyway:)

you;d leverage that arguement against any of them though. if you;re going to be swapping pedals anyway, or cranks, then a crankset is no harder. if not comfortable doing that, then wheel based the next option, or stick the same pedals on all bikes and go brim brothers.

tunney

mossym wrote: »

sure you'll need to find the key to get the bike out of the shed anyway:)

you;d leverage that arguement against any of them though. if you;re going to be swapping pedals anyway, or cranks, then a crankset is no harder. if not comfortable doing that, then wheel based the next option, or stick the same pedals on all bikes and go brim brothers.

Lets put something in the pedals then?
Doesn't matter if it works, sure most people using it won't notice.

Kaisr Sose

fat bloke wrote: »

If it works for you then fair play to you but when I'm going for a spin I find it taxing enough to remember where I left my helmet, find my other glove, pump the shaggin tires, make sure the garmin is charged and get a dump in before doing up my bib shorts and putting on pocket-stuffed jersey!

Throw in a crank change as well? A couple of minutes me hole, it'd take me that long to find the key for the shed to get the toolbox where I may or may not have left the crank removal tool.

The left and right side argument again. :-)

Tip: Jersey easier to put on empty and then stuff with goodies.

As for the single side or both side power measurement discussion. The world is full of alternative solutions for the same thing. Often, there is no best or single method, but various options, each of which will be more or less appropriate to an individuals wants, needs, aims, budget, etc.
Its highly unlikely that this does not apply to Power Meters.

fat bloke

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Tip: Jersey easier to put on empty and then stuff with goodies.

Indeed. But there is no more effective a laxative than a freshly zipped up jersey over bib shorts!

Re crank removal. I've conned myself with similar arguments wrt carbon wheels and tubs and specific brake pads "sure it only takes a second to swop out them out etc". I'm older and wiser now .

As for the 1 leg 2 leg argument. I would contend that it is far better for whole swathes of people to be able to (literally) get one leg on the training with power ladder due to a more affordable price point than to have the same swathes economically excluded. The option then to add the other leg at a later date is a practical and considerate and sensible one imo. And it's not one that will ever be available to the stages purchaser.

One leg is better than none though and every newcomer to the increasingly affordable power meter party should be welcomed.

tunney

fat bloke wrote: »

Indeed. But there is no more effective a laxative than a freshly zipped up jersey over bib shorts!

Re crank removal. I've conned myself with similar arguments wrt carbon wheels and tubs and specific brake pads "sure it only takes a second to swop out them out etc". I'm older and wiser now .

As for the 1 leg 2 leg argument. I would contend that it is far better for whole swathes of people to be able to (literally) get one leg on the training with power ladder due to a more affordable price point than to have the same swathes economically excluded. The option then to add the other leg at a later date is a practical and considerate and sensible one imo. And it's not one that will ever be available to the stages purchaser.

One leg is better than none though and every newcomer to the increasingly affordable power meter party should be welcomed.

Ah bless, looking forward to the Wicklow 200 next year?

fat bloke

tunney wrote: »

Ah bless, looking forward to the Wicklow 200 next year?

Why so because?

pprendeville

fat bloke wrote: »

Indeed. But there is no more effective a laxative than a freshly zipped up jersey over bib shorts!

Re crank removal. I've conned myself with similar arguments wrt carbon wheels and tubs and specific brake pads "sure it only takes a second to swop out them out etc". I'm older and wiser now .

As for the 1 leg 2 leg argument. I would contend that it is far better for whole swathes of people to be able to (literally) get one leg on the training with power ladder due to a more affordable price point than to have the same swathes economically excluded. The option then to add the other leg at a later date is a practical and considerate and sensible one imo. And it's not one that will ever be available to the stages purchaser.

One leg is better than none though and every newcomer to the increasingly affordable power meter party should be welcomed.

Hear hear. I thought it was just me that got excited bowels at the sight, no the smell of a pair of bib shorts.

Chips Lovell

Tunney banned for a week for repeated trollerization.

niceonetom

Have I slipped through a wormhole to 2008? I'm half expecting Kona to start throwing abuse...

...if this post makes any sense to you, you've been here too long. RUN! RUN YOU FOOLS!

fat bloke

Only professionals can have nice things

Ken1975

Folks need some help. Got stages ultegra 6800 and it calibrated fine on friday. Reading was 870. Forgot to zero it before a 4 hour spin on Sunday but also moved the bike from the shed to the kitchen where it stood for 20 mins so readings were off the wall.
This morning I zero'd outside before heading off and reading was 1194. I thought I may not havr left it outside long enough so carried on.
I left my bike in an underground carpark all day so temp should be fairly consistent. So calibrated before leaving this evening and reading was 1288.

Amy ideas how to get back to the original 870 reading.

Btw. Tried calibrating with no hrm on too. Same.

Cheers.
Ken.

jiffybag

Have you updated the firmware ? Readings that high are uncommon and indicate a faulty device .

Ken1975 wrote: »

Folks need some help. Got stages ultegra 6800 and it calibrated fine on friday. Reading was 870. Forgot to zero it before a 4 hour spin on Sunday but also moved the bike from the shed to the kitchen where it stood for 20 mins so readings were off the wall.
This morning I zero'd outside before heading off and reading was 1194. I thought I may not havr left it outside long enough so carried on.
I left my bike in an underground carpark all day so temp should be fairly consistent. So calibrated before leaving this evening and reading was 1288.

Amy ideas how to get back to the original 870 reading.

Btw. Tried calibrating with no hrm on too. Same.

Cheers.
Ken.

Ken1975

jiffybag wrote: »

Have you updated the firmware ? Readings that high are uncommon and indicate a faulty device .

Faulty even though the initial calibration was within .

Would it need firmware update even though it was bought last week. Sure I'll look into that. Cheers.

jiffybag

Ken1975 wrote: »

Faulty even though the initial calibration was within .

Would it need firmware update even though it was bought last week. Sure I'll look into that. Cheers.

Thats the first thing you would need to do with Stages . Latest firmware is 2.0.58

Statler

Ken1975 wrote: »

Folks need some help. Got stages ultegra 6800 and it calibrated fine on friday. Reading was 870. Forgot to zero it before a 4 hour spin on Sunday but also moved the bike from the shed to the kitchen where it stood for 20 mins so readings were off the wall.
This morning I zero'd outside before heading off and reading was 1194. I thought I may not havr left it outside long enough so carried on.
I left my bike in an underground carpark all day so temp should be fairly consistent. So calibrated before leaving this evening and reading was 1288.

Amy ideas how to get back to the original 870 reading.

Btw. Tried calibrating with no hrm on too. Same.

Cheers.
Ken.

jiffybag wrote: »

Have you updated the firmware ? Readings that high are uncommon and indicate a faulty device .

Bad news is it doesn't sound right and may indicate a faulty device alright. Good news is that having dealt with them a good few times Stages support, either in the US or through Saddleback in the UK has been faultless in my experience. Quick to reply and quick turnaround if a device needs to be replaced. Obviously I'd rather not have to go through all that but they definitely are good to deal with when things go wrong.

Ken1975

Statler wrote: »

Bad news is it doesn't sound right and may indicate a faulty device alright. Good news is that having dealt with them a good few times Stages support, either in the US or through Saddleback in the UK has been faultless in my experience. Quick to reply and quick turnaround if a device needs to be replaced. Obviously I'd rather not have to go through all that but they definitely are good to deal with when things go wrong.

Thanks for that comforting piece of advice Statler.
I got onto Stages EU, they directed me to Saddleback, whom I mailed this morning so fingers crossed its hassle free and quick.

And to Jiffybag, I checked firmware on the Stages = 2.0.58 , Also checked the Garmin 500 = 3.30. Also disable HR and Speed/Cadence sensor in case there was a conflict but alas, No. So thanks for your help anyway, its much appreciated.

Inquitus

Ken1975 wrote: »

Thanks for that comforting piece of advice Statler.
I got onto Stages EU, they directed me to Saddleback, whom I mailed this morning so fingers crossed its hassle free and quick.

And to Jiffybag, I checked firmware on the Stages = 2.0.58 , Also checked the Garmin 500 = 3.30. Also disable HR and Speed/Cadence sensor in case there was a conflict but alas, No. So thanks for your help anyway, its much appreciated.

Aye their customer service is excellent, the battery cover broke on me and they sent me out 3 replacements immediately, no questions asked.

FrankGrimes

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Just received a Power2Max. First impression was ' holy grail this box feels heavy'. Unit looks good but maybe i missed an option for them to assemble the unit and chain rings. It's for TTs and float raced so weight not so much a concern but though i haven't weighted it yet vs my other cranks, it does seem surprisingly heavy. Look forward to getting out going though

Thought I should come back on this: what I went for is the Rotor 3d (not the new type S) with 53/39 BOR chainrings. Did a quick comparison against a 2011 DuraAce 50/34 chainset with an SRM. Need to double-check what I wrote down, but pretty sure it was within 120g which surprised me.

Difference in the weight of the package was the Rotor lock ring tool - that thing is a solid lump and must weigh 300-400g so that put me off.

Have to say, at that very slight weight penalty, it makes the Power2Max a very compelling proposition vs. SRM cost. Gotts say, I like the look of the Rotor cranks too, particularly with the colour decals added, certainly nicer than DuraAce chainset for me.

Performance-wise, only started using it recently after a period away. Don't have a very scientific way of comparing it, other than how it tracks to the readings on my Tacx Fortius (which is not known for high accuracy on power). power2max is generally tracking around 10-15% lower than the Tacx whereas the SRM used to be about 5% lower. When well-trained, I have a very good feel for the perceived effort of my VO2 Max intervals (generally 370w-430w when fit), but doing them last night the Tacx was showing 370w with the power2max showing 320w. Again, first tough session I've done in a good while, but the numbers did feel low vs. what I'd normally expect to see for that perceived effort.

In retrospect, I normally do the Brake Calibration on the Tacx at the start of the ride but didn't last night, so it may have been reading high. And I'm not sure if it's by design, but my power2max doesn't show a calibration value on my Garmin Edge 500 at all, though that may be down to it not needing it due to it doing the Auto Zero itself throughout the ride?

So, bottom line is I think it looks great, isn't as heavy as reviews have made out, gives power readings that my unscientific inputs suggest is a bit lower than the SRM, but what is very clear is they are consistent power readings (have tested it through a range of power levels and intervals) so that's what matters more than the absolute value comparison to SRM. All in all, so far I'm thinking this is very good bang for buck compared to an SRM.

mossym

FrankGrimes wrote: »

In retrospect, I normally do the Brake Calibration on the Tacx at the start of the ride but didn't last night, so it may have been reading high. And I'm not sure if it's by design, but my power2max doesn't show a calibration value on my Garmin Edge 500 at all, though that may be down to it not needing it due to it doing the Auto Zero itself throughout the ride?

.

the rotor lock ring tool is a heavy lump alright, if you were judging the overall weight with that included not surprise you thought it was heavy.

my p2m calibrates at every start, pops up on my garmin asking if i want to calibrate. usually do. mine is a type s though so something may have changed.

ironmanwannabe

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So, bottom line is I think it looks great, isn't as heavy as reviews have made out, gives power readings that my unscientific inputs suggest is a bit lower than the SRM, but what is very clear is they are consistent power readings (have tested it through a range of power levels and intervals) so that's what matters more than the absolute value comparison to SRM. All in all, so far I'm thinking this is very good bang for buck compared to an SRM.

Interesting I see SRM UK are not selling the SRM 9000 with a PC7 for 2500, and when the PC8 ships they'll swap the PC7 for one

FrankGrimes

ironmanwannabe wrote: »

Interesting I see SRM UK are not selling the SRM 9000 with a PC7 for 2500, and when the PC8 ships they'll swap the PC7 for one

Just clarifying that I use a Garmin Edge 500 with the power2max and also used it with the SRM, so my comparison is like-for-like on the head unit side, haven't used a PC7 or PC8.

FrankGrimes

Found a forum online with users that couldn't get their Garmin to take the calibration reading from the power2max: tried the suggested taking it outside, letting the Garmin register GPS signal and then doing the calibration when back indoors on the turbo - worked. Readings tonight were much closer to the Tacx, and very close to what I'd expect from memory with the SRM for given effort levels. Glad that's sorted and it makes the P2M even more promising.

harringtonp

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Found a forum online with users that couldn't get their Garmin to take the calibration reading from the power2max: tried the suggested taking it outside, letting the Garmin register GPS signal and then doing the calibration when back indoors on the turbo - worked. Readings tonight were much closer to the Tacx, and very close to what I'd expect from memory with the SRM for given effort levels. Glad that's sorted and it makes the P2M even more promising.

Do you have a link ? I have a Rotor 3D power2max which I use with a Garmin Edge 705. Calibration was never on my radar as it is supposedly self calibrating. Did a first winter turbo session last night and the RPE felt extremely high for the wattage compared to sessions last spring. I put this down to getting back into turbo sessions, it probably was this but would like to read more about it. Particularly why getting a GPS signal has anything to do with it.

mossym

harringtonp wrote: »

Particularly why getting a GPS signal has anything to do with it.

it's not a p2m problem, i;ve seen this reported in connection with other ant sensors. basically the system gets a little confused when it doesn't get data it was expecting from something, like the gps, which affects how it interacts with other sensors(HR, cadence). almost like a web browser that hangs up your computer as it waits for a webpage to load. once it gets the data it was expecting it's fine again

tunney

From jackmott on Slowtwitch

The validity of an idea does not depend on the number of people supporting it, but the data and logic supporting it.

Human bike power production is neither even nor consistent, and numerous investigations into this question support this. A partial list:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/979569
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10460126
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369798
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21055708

People with Vector power meters or lab equipment can provide many more examples.

Many people who own stages power meters have said they "work fine", of those people, three of them have sent me power files where they had data from both a stages and a power meter than records data from both legs. In every case there were obvious discrepancies. I don't even do very complex analysis to find them. DCRainmaker had obvious discrepancies in his data:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...max_power_curves.png

DJ Connel found discrepancies with as well: http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...ower-comparison.html

The confounding issue of power balance is a reality. If that kind of error does not affect its utility for your own personal use, then it is a good buy. But don't pretend that issue does not exist.

From http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Is_the_Stages_power_meter_a_good_buy_P5281044/


Jackmott is a well of technical knowledge

Note for mods: Intention with this post is to share interesting information and posts from other sources. If others take offence and report not my intention

pprendeville

Lucks cool.

tegerman

Has anyone purchased their power meter from powermeter24? I ordered a stages from them mid september and was given a dispatch date for 4 weeks after, which was bad enough. When that date arrived I contacted them and they said it would be another 3 weeks. The new date has arrived and I have been given another date 2.5 weeks from now. Really really crummy service.

Beasty

tegerman wrote: »

Has anyone purchased their power meter from powermeter24? I ordered a stages from them mid september and was given a dispatch date for 4 weeks after, which was bad enough. When that date arrived I contacted them and they said it would be another 3 weeks. The new date has arrived and I have been given another date 2.5 weeks from now. Really really crummy service.

Yes. Got it within a couple of weeks. No problem.

I am guessing in this case they were expecting an order which has been delayed of perhaps not fulfilled completely leaving them short. Alas it's the sort of thing that can happen quite regularly with online ordering.

harringtonp

tegerman wrote: »

Has anyone purchased their power meter from powermeter24? I ordered a stages from them mid september and was given a dispatch date for 4 weeks after, which was bad enough. When that date arrived I contacted them and they said it would be another 3 weeks. The new date has arrived and I have been given another date 2.5 weeks from now. Really really crummy service.

Below recent snippet from Facebook from a cycling buddy of mine, removed names, not sure what his exact issue is yet

---

Be very cautious if ordering anything from this crowd:
http://www.powermeter24.com/

Were they not nice to you ?
23 October at 22:03 · Like

NO
23 October at 22:46 · Like

shower of pr**ks. they must have missed the class about customer relations when they set up the company
23 October at 22:47 · Like · 1

Go to Planet Tri, a great bunch of lads.
23 October at 22:48 · Like · 2

Was it your German skills ?
23 October at 23:16 · Like

I mentioned the "war"
24 October at 07:13 · Like · 1

Ken1975

tegerman wrote: »

Has anyone purchased their power meter from powermeter24? I ordered a stages from them mid september and was given a dispatch date for 4 weeks after, which was bad enough. When that date arrived I contacted them and they said it would be another 3 weeks. The new date has arrived and I have been given another date 2.5 weeks from now. Really really crummy service.

Ah don't get me started on that shower. Well ok, do.
I ordered an Stages Ultegra from them back 28th August with an estimated shipping date of 5th September. That date came and past, got a notification to say a 10 working day delay. I complained but agreed to wait. on the 10th day got another mail to say an additional 10 day delay at which point they tried to upsell a Quarq riken to me for an additional €200. Told them to take a run and jump. Demanded a refund and got it 5 days later.
Ended up ordering from powermetershop.de (be aware the site is only in German but if you open it in Chrome, you can opt to have the site translated). They shipped quickly but shipped me a faulty stages. Got it replaced no hassle ,albeit it a slow initial response to my mail stating it was faulty.
Replacement working fine so far.

specialCK

I've just received my Powertomax, LBS is installing it onto my bike, using Q rings on the Rotor 3D cranks. I was on a cyclops PM wheel and had loads of trouble with it. Any views on Powertomax?

Beasty

specialCK wrote: »

Any views on Powertomax?

Do you mean Power2max?

mossym

Beasty wrote: »

Do you mean Power2max?

and if you do, lots of discussion on them earlier in the thread

tunney

mossym wrote: »

and if you do, lots of discussion on them earlier in the thread

They are complete overkill. Only one leg is needed, why do they insist on forcing both legs on us?????

specialCK

Yes, its Power2max, thanks very much for the links.
Can't wait to get going on the new PM, have only heard good things about it.

pprendeville

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2014.969296

Would make for an interesting read. Documents Thibaut Pinots last 6 years of powermeter use.

tegerman

Ken1975 wrote: »

Ah don't get me started on that shower. Well ok, do.
I ordered an Stages Ultegra from them back 28th August with an estimated shipping date of 5th September. That date came and past, got a notification to say a 10 working day delay. I complained but agreed to wait. on the 10th day got another mail to say an additional 10 day delay at which point they tried to upsell a Quarq riken to me for an additional €200. Told them to take a run and jump. Demanded a refund and got it 5 days later.
Ended up ordering from powermetershop.de (be aware the site is only in German but if you open it in Chrome, you can opt to have the site translated). They shipped quickly but shipped me a faulty stages. Got it replaced no hassle ,albeit it a slow initial response to my mail stating it was faulty.
Replacement working fine so far.

Based on your experience I cancelled my order. Its now 2 weeks since I cancelled, and over a week since I started emailing them for the refund, and I'm still waiting for it.

If anyone else is thinking about it, I would be very very wary about ordering anything from powermeter24. If my experience is anything to go by (and it is judging by the results of a quick google search) they treat their customers like crap.

specialCK

I have been using the power2max for the last 2 weeks and it is grrreat. Delivery was 10 days and it arrived on time and power readings are nowhere near as jumpy or off target as the powertap wheel.

fat bloke

Special on Canyon.com at the moment on the vector s 720 euro, I think it's usually 890
http://www.canyon.com/en/accessories/#category=F04&id=51312

harringtonp

Actually as more and more people are interested in power meters am curious to know if anybody know of bike manufacturers (e.g. rose, canyon, planetx) who offer off the shelf packages with them ?

Seems like a logical next step to me as with something like P2M you are saving on an additional crankset

pprendeville

harringtonp wrote: »

Actually as more and more people are interested in power meters am curious to know if anybody know of bike manufacturers (e.g. rose, canyon, planetx) who offer off the shelf packages with them ?

Seems like a logical next step to me as with something like P2M you are saving on an additional crankset

Good question. I guess one needs a solid background in electronics first of all and that probably isn't bike companies speciality. I wonder will Shimano ever come out with one, something built into the crank kinda like Pioneer.

Speaking of which, I got a Pioneer recently (the 2nd generation) and I'm very happy with it. Feels very similar to my power output on Trainerroad and so far it's very consistent. Pretty easy install, a magnet on either chainstay with the one on the crank side a bit awkward to install but not too bad. The meter confirmed my left side dominance by about 10% so I'm getting a fit next week with Aidan Hammond. Will be interesting with the spi Spinscan and dual sided meter to see what kind of balance I can get or even a power improvement while at the same time retaining comfort.