Ireland selection for Scotland game?

Mahatma Geansai

JJ not starting for his province shouldn't be an issue as Henderson is in a similar position with his province, but he is included in his squad.

Tox56

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

JJ not starting for his province shouldn't be an issue as Henderson is in a similar position with his province, but he is included in his squad.

6 times internationally capped Henderson who can cover multiple positions. JJ plays one position, with no international experience (and even minimal H Cup experience) and has 4 players ahead of him in his position, 3 of them are vastly more experienced at this level and the 4th is ahead of him for his club. JJ's time will come but it makes no difference whether he makes this squad as he won't see any game time.

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

6 times internationally capped Henderson who can cover multiple positions. JJ plays one position, with no international experience (and even minimal H Cup experience) and has 4 players ahead of him in his position, 3 of them are vastly more experienced at this level and the 4th is ahead of him for his club. JJ's time will come but it makes no difference whether he makes this squad as he won't see any game time.

Yeah but JJ plays for Munster, you forgot that bit.

paulmcshane

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

JJ not starting for his province shouldn't be an issue as Henderson is in a similar position with his province, but he is included in his squad.

You know you can't compare the two, but you do it anyways.

MongotheBongo

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

molloyjh

MongotheBongo wrote: »

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

No pressure now JJ.....

stephen_n

MongotheBongo wrote: »

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

Why do people does this to young players in this country :rolleyes:

astonaidan

stephen_n wrote: »

Why do people does this to young players in this country :rolleyes:

Now Now, Lets not forget what the English did with poor Cipriani, so its not just us

Mahatma Geansai

paulmcshane wrote: »

You know you can't compare the two, but you do it anyways.

Of course there are comparisons to be made. Both are the best U20 prospects we have had in years, and have a similar number of appearances and brilliant moments for their provinces. Both are in a similar position in the pecking order at club and provincial level. Henderson is ahead in his development, but there isn't a giant amount in it.

I addressed the point that not starting for your province shouldn't be a reason to rule a player out when there are others included in the squad in a similar position. There are many other reasons for players to miss out.

MohammedAdi

MongotheBongo wrote: »

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

Here we go...... This reminds me a little of Keith Earls when he burst onto the scene. Don't get carried away there.....I've already had a few Munster friends tell me that JJ will definitely be starting outhalf for the 2015 world cup.

Good to have talent come through but...you know....don't put any pressure on the young lads shoulders or aything.

awec

MongotheBongo wrote: »

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

so why isn't he getting the gametime?

ScissorPaperRock

Tox56 wrote: »

6 times internationally capped Henderson who can cover multiple positions. JJ plays one position, with no international experience (and even minimal H Cup experience) and has 4 players ahead of him in his position, 3 of them are vastly more experienced at this level and the 4th is ahead of him for his club. JJ's time will come but it makes no difference whether he makes this squad as he won't see any game time.

In fairness JJ plays 12 as well, doesn't he? He's probably a bit more versatile than Jackson.

Not saying that should put him ahead at the moment, but it'll be useful to have in future possibly.

MohammedAdi

awec wrote: »

so why isn't he getting the gametime?

He's been told to concentrate on 'putting on more bulk' like Nagle and Butler :pac:

(that seems to be the go to excuse for those who like to overhype players getting little game time down in Munster)

ScissorPaperRock

awec wrote: »

so why isn't he getting the gametime?

I'm not trying to keep this runaway hype train on the tracks, but I wouldn't say that the reason Jackson got ahead while JJ has had to wait is a difference in talent (not that you were necessarily implying that).

They're both just in different setups, with different coaches, different players around them (Murray's becoming an excellent player, but he's no Pienaar in terms of game management), and probably different expectations of the outhalf. After having ROG at the helm for so many years I doubt Munster would have been as willing to take as great a risk on a new kid as Ulster did (especially without a Pienaar), and Keatley is a solid player that can help maintain some stability in a transitioning team.

It should hopefully mean that JJ can ease in without as much of the knock backs that Jackson had to face (though they should stand to him), but I do hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Tox56

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

In fairness JJ plays 12 as well, doesn't he? He's probably a bit more versatile than Jackson.

Not saying that should put him ahead at the moment, but it'll be useful to have in future possibly.

He does but if he wants to get into the Ireland squad all his gametime realistically needs to be at 10, even Keatley is more versatile than him and he's highly unlikely to be a 12 long term. He is good enough to be first choice Munster 10 if he keeps at it and an Ireland call-up wont be far away should he move ahead of Keatley.

Mahatma Geansai

awec wrote: »

so why isn't he getting the gametime?

He is getting gametime. He hasn't been starting for Munster in the HEC, but I believe that he has been involved in every match-day squad this year bar one. He only has 5/6 less provincial caps than Henderson and Jackson.

danthefan

MongotheBongo wrote: »

JJ would be outperforming Jackson if he was getting the gametime Jackson was getting IMO. He looks to be better than even Johnny Sexton. He is Dan-Carter like in his style, I believe he could become as good as him in a few years

So basically you're saying he's good enough to be one of the best OHs of all time, but he can't get into the Munster team?

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He is getting gametime. He hasn't been starting for Munster in the HEC, but I believe that he has been involved in every match-day squad this year bar one. He only has 5/6 less provincial caps than Henderson and Jackson.

If by 5 or 6 caps less than Jackson you actually mean 25 or 26 caps less than Jackson then you might be somewhere in the same ballpark. Not to mention Jackson has started a HEC QF, SF and Final for example. JJ has started a B&I Cup Final. I like JJ, he's a real talent, but in terms of development and experience Jackson is well ahead at the moment.

Fireball07

Tox56 wrote: »

6 times internationally capped Henderson who can cover multiple positions. JJ plays one position, with no international experience (and even minimal H Cup experience) and has 4 players ahead of him in his position, 3 of them are vastly more experienced at this level and the 4th is ahead of him for his club. JJ's time will come but it makes no difference whether he makes this squad as he won't see any game time.

JJ can play 12, hasn't played there this year, bar a few mins but a lot of people said it was his best position underage.


I'm not surprised he didn't make the squad really, would be more surprised about DOC and Cronin than him. He's been better than Keatley this season and if things continue the way they are, it's only a matter of time before he overtakes him. No need to rush him, we've got plenty of options at the moment.


And the reason he's not getting as much gametime is Penney tends to be slightly conservative. It's the same reason that Ivan Dineen hasn't got more gametime, why it took so long for Cathal Sheridan to get played, even James Cronin. It's nothing to do with JJ's ability.

Mahatma Geansai

danthefan wrote: »

If by 5 or 6 caps less than Jackson you actually mean 25 or 26 caps less than Jackson then you might be somewhere in the same ballpark. Not to mention Jackson has started a HEC QF, SF and Final for example. JJ has started a B&I Cup Final. I like JJ, he's a real talent, but in terms of development and experience Jackson is well ahead at the moment.

I knew that the stats looked unbelievable. That's what I get for trusting the stats on Jacko's wikipedia page. I know that he is currently miles behind Jackson; Jackson has been brilliant this year.

danthefan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I knew that the stats looked unbelievable. That's what I get for trusting the stats on Jacko's wikipedia page. I know that he is currently miles behind Jackson; Jackson has been brilliant this year.

JJ - 25 Munster caps, only 11 of which are starts
Jackson - 54 Ulster caps, don't have the number for starts but he's been first choice for almost 2 full seasons now

Mahatma Geansai

danthefan wrote: »

JJ - 25 Munster caps, only 11 of which are starts
Jackson - 54 Ulster caps, don't have the number for starts but he's been first choice for almost 2 full seasons now

Ya, I didn't put much thought into it other than checking the Wiki. I had forgotten that he was starting for Ulster when Hanrahan was playing in the U20 world cup.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Hanrahan best kicker in the Rabo this season. Staggeringly good stuff so far from him.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

He's also ran in 3 tries in the League and one (important one!) in the Heineken Cup

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php?player=99439&includeref=dynamic

JJ also has the odd brainfart too, like kicking the ball away in midfield against Edinburgh that cost a decisive try in the first round HEC match this season. He needs to improve his game management skills and get ahead of Keatley before he'll make the Irish squad.

Foxtrol

Zzippy wrote: »

JJ also has the odd brainfart too, like kicking the ball away in midfield against Edinburgh that cost a decisive try in the first round HEC match this season. He needs to improve his game management skills and get ahead of Keatley before he'll make the Irish squad.

Think the issue is he's a massive turn away from what Munster are used to for years with ROG. He's a good player and extremely exciting but I think Penney is trying to keep him out of the spotlight as much as he can until his youthful brainfarts become less apparent (I think they’ve already started to).

Fireball07

Foxtrol wrote: »

Think the issue is he's a massive turn away from what Munster are used to for years with ROG. He's a good player and extremely exciting but I think Penney is trying to keep him out of the spotlight as much as he can until his youthful brainfarts become less apparent (I think they’ve already started to).

I think he's had 2 noticeable brainfarts this season, that was obviously one. But in general, he's been very good.


Not many players, certainly out-halves, would have scored his try against Perpignan, he's definitely different to what we're used to. I think only Madigan of the Irish out-halves would have scored that.

Foxtrol

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think he's had 2 noticeable brainfarts this season, that was obviously one. But in general, he's been very good.

Not many players, certainly out-halves, would have scored his try against Perpignan, he's definitely different to what we're used to. I think only Madigan of the Irish out-halves would have scored that.

As I said I think he’s already gotten better. During the under 20’s WC for example I think he did some outstanding things but he also made a lot of silly errors that didn’t end up costing his team but would have at a higher level.

.ak

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

I'm not trying to keep this runaway hype train on the tracks, but I wouldn't say that the reason Jackson got ahead while JJ has had to wait is a difference in talent (not that you were necessarily implying that).

They're both just in different setups, with different coaches, different players around them (Murray's becoming an excellent player, but he's no Pienaar in terms of game management), and probably different expectations of the outhalf. After having ROG at the helm for so many years I doubt Munster would have been as willing to take as great a risk on a new kid as Ulster did (especially without a Pienaar), and Keatley is a solid player that can help maintain some stability in a transitioning team.

It should hopefully mean that JJ can ease in without as much of the knock backs that Jackson had to face (though they should stand to him), but I do hope it happens sooner rather than later.

In fairness I think the reason Jackson is getting more game time than his u20s team mate is simply because he's better. Jackson was getting selected over iHumph who knew what was happening and up ship and left. JJ is good, but as with a lot of u20 exciting players he needs to work on more than just his break and kick to be a complete out half. Right now I'd have Jackson on my team ahead of him.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

In fairness I think the reason Jackson is getting more game time than his u20s team mate is simply because he's better. Jackson was getting selected over iHumph who knew what was happening and up ship and left. JJ is good, but as with a lot of u20 exciting players he needs to work on more than just his break and kick to be a complete out half. Right now I'd have Jackson on my team ahead of him.

If JJ was at Ulster and Jackson at Munster what do you think would have happened?

Fireball07

Foxtrol wrote: »

As I said I think he’s already gotten better. During the under 20’s WC for example I think he did some outstanding things but he also made a lot of silly errors that didn’t end up costing his team but would have at a higher level.

Same for most young players, especially in such an important position. We just have to hope that he improves with experience- some do, some don't. He has the talent anyway.

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

If JJ was at Ulster and Jackson at Munster what do you think would have happened?

Even through the worst of his form Penney wouldn't have dropped ROG so Jackson would probably be two year behind where he is now. Pointless exercise though really.

Tox56

danthefan wrote: »

Even through the worst of his form Penney wouldn't have dropped ROG so Jackson would probably be two year behind where he is now. Pointless exercise though really.

Yeah but he wouldn't even have had those bench positions most likely, with Keatley pretty clearly 2nd choice while ROG was around. So often young players step up when coaches are forced to make them first team players (exactly the same situation as Marmion at Connacht for eg, was in the same U20 team as Jackson too)

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah but he wouldn't even have had those bench positions most likely, with Keatley pretty clearly 2nd choice while ROG was around. So often young players step up when coaches are forced to make them first team players (exactly the same situation as Marmion at Connacht for eg, was in the same U20 team as Jackson too)

That would say more about Penney than Jackson imo. No doubt in my mind that Jackson is the better player.

ScissorPaperRock

.ak wrote: »

In fairness I think the reason Jackson is getting more game time than his u20s team mate is simply because he's better. Jackson was getting selected over iHumph who knew what was happening and up ship and left. JJ is good, but as with a lot of u20 exciting players he needs to work on more than just his break and kick to be a complete out half. Right now I'd have Jackson on my team ahead of him.

I agree Jackson is a more complete player right now but I don't think that's the only factor in the game time he's getting, and certainly not the reason why a chance was taken on him and not on JJ. A lot of environmental factors led to one getting the opportunity to take the 10 shirt at Ulster and the other having to wait to show what he's capable of.

Jackson became better because he was given more game time, not the other way around.

MohammedAdi

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

I agree Jackson is a more complete player right now but I don't think that's the only factor in the game time he's getting, and certainly not the reason why a chance was taken on him and not on JJ. A lot of environmental factors led to one getting the opportunity to take the 10 shirt at Ulster and the other having to wait to show what he's capable of.

Jackson became better because he was given more game time, not the other way around.

Don't know about that, when Jackson came onto the scene Ian Humphreys was playing a lot better than Ian Keatley is now who JJ is competing with. Jackson was good enough to be selected over Humphreys and then got better with gametime but he was obviously already pretty damn good before that to even be picked.

I really dont think JJ is at that level yet despite what all those hyping him are saying. And while he might turn out to be very good, I dont think he'll be Dan Carter lads, sorry

awec

Jackson was selected over Ian Humphreys in a Heineken Cup semi final. And final.

danthefan

awec wrote: »

Jackson was selected over Ian Humphreys in a Heineken Cup semi final.

And SF. To be fair he sort of did nothing in either of those games. He's improved out of sight since.

MohammedAdi wrote: »

Don't know about that, when Jackson came onto the scene Ian Humphreys was playing a lot better than Ian Keatley is now

I really wouldn't agree with that. Plus iHumph would make awful mistakes on a fairly regular basis, and he made ROG look like Dan Lydiate in defence.

ScissorPaperRock

danthefan wrote: »

And SF. To be fair he sort of did nothing in either of those games. He's improved out of sight since.




I really wouldn't agree with that. Plus iHumph would make awful mistakes on a fairly regular basis, and he made ROG look like Dan Lydiate in defence.

And Humphries was in pretty poor form at the time IIRC

And I think the importance of Pienaar is being understated here.

Fireball07

Jackson was a very good player at U-20 level but you could argue that JJ was arguably better. Certainly made more of a noticeable impact when he moved to OH for the JWC and was duly recognised. Not only goalkicking, but his passing and breaks... obviously there were a few things that, as Foxtrol has pointed out, may have been punished at a higher level.


Jackson had faith put in him by Ulster and it has paid off, he is a very very talented player and is getting better all the time. Has had a few shaky games, no doubt about that... for Ulster and Ireland. But that's always going to happen- ROG had them, Sexton had them, JJ will have more of them I'm sure.


But I don't necessarily agree that Humphreys was playing better than Keatley is now. Humphreys was very inconsistent and couldn't defend. I would go as far to say that he was worse than ROG defensively. Jackson is a decent defender, a very intelligent footballer and slotted in outside of Pienaar nicely.


In a totally hypothetical scenario that JJ was Ulster-born and Jackson from Munster, I think JJ would be firmly ahead of Jackson at the moment... Jackson got the opportunity and seized it with two hands. And that's why he's better than JJ at the moment.

Mahatma Geansai

Jackson had established outhalves either side of him in Pienaar and Wallace. He couldn't have asked for a better opportunity.

Bridge93

Considering the thread we are in here I might add the two of them aren't in competition with each other to start against Scotland so it's not really the place for this.
I would go as strong as we can against Scotland, no resting/blooding for me. It's the first game of the tournament, Scotland will be up for it and as fit as they're going to be. Not the time to trial players (maybe off the bench).
It's the place to make an early statement.

chippers

The Ulster coaching team have to take a massive amount of credit for how they have developed Jackson. They have stuck by him through thick and thin and it has accelerated his progress. Their belief in him as a player has built the confidence that his is now demonstrating. It is a model of development that we don't generally follow in Ireland but for me shows the potential dividends that it can have. They now have an established, locally born outhalf, at the ripe age of 22. The future looks good in Ulster.

shuffol

Outside Centre should definitely be a live topic for the Scotland game, dont think O'Driscoll is offering enough at the moment myself, will be a lot of eyes on Cave's performance tomorrow.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

My team for the Scottish game: (an eye on rotation)

15 Kearney
14 Earls
13 Cave
12 Darcy
11 Fitzgerald
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 TOD
6 POM
5 POC
4 Toner
3 Moore
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Cronin
17 McGrath
18 Ross
19 Henderson
20 Henry
21 Marmion
22 Jackson
23 Zebo/Bowe

awec

BOD won't be dropped. Couldn't see it at all.

shuffol

awec wrote: »

BOD won't be dropped. Couldn't see it at all.

It'd probably be the sh*te storm for the Lions times ten, you could understand why Schmidt would like to avoid it given the lack of outstanding alternatives.

ScissorPaperRock

The issue is that we face Wales the following week. Assuming that no coach* would want to drop BOD for that game given the public outcry that would undoubtedly follow, and given that you just wouldn't want to deny BOD a crack at that game, would you risk dropping BOD into the Wales game without him having played the week before?

*maybe Joe would be capable of making that decision, but, for me, BOD is one of the few players where sentimentality and respect for their contribution to the sport in Ireland does come into it when you're making selection decisions in their last international tournament.

Kanrith

I'd say he'll play better with Scmidht, not a coincidence that O'Driscoll's best game this season was the only day the Leinster backs really clicked. Just don't think MOC's game plan suits him.

CatFromHue

Kanrith wrote: »

I'd say he'll play better with Scmidht, not a coincidence that O'Driscoll's best game this season was the only day the Leinster backs really clicked. Just don't think MOC's game plan suits him.

It's a tough call. He is making some individual errors that have nothing to do with the game plan.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

It's a tough call. He is making some individual errors that have nothing to do with the game plan.

Yeah there was a pretty simple pass to I think Murphy at the end which he just failed to execute and it was just poor play, but in saying that I have a feeling that he is preparing to peak for the Six Nations and that actually that's his main focus this season, not Leinster. Just my tuppence worth, he won't be dropped either although it would certainly be interesting if Payne was available now.

Kanrith

I know BOD would give his all but would it be at all possible that he mainly wanted to stay fit for the six nations? It would be a nightmare for him if he wasn't.

Tox56

If nothing else dropping BOD will put ridiculous pressure on the replacement, not a good environment to assess prospects