HELP, Joyces Ulysses

Brinimartini

Can anyone help me to stay with Ulysses and finish it.
I can't help feeling it's pointless nonsense masquerading
as literature.
Is it me that fails to understand the gobbledegook or are there
explanations for the seemingly idiotic passages.
If there are people out there who do actually understand what's going on
through having a finer education than me would you let me know or at
least reassure me that perhaps it's not meant to make sense.
Incredibly, there are millions who revere this book and so many are not even native English speakers.
Confused.

HeadPig

Brinimartini wrote: »

Can anyone help me to stay with Ulysses and finish it.
I can't help feeling it's pointless nonsense masquerading
as literature.
Is it me that fails to understand the gobbledegook or are there
explanations for the seemingly idiotic passages.
If there are people out there who do actually understand what's going on
through having a finer education than me would you let me know or at
least reassure me that perhaps it's not meant to make sense.
Incredibly, there are millions who revere this book and so many are not even native English speakers.
Confused.

I'm here to reassure that Ulysses does actually make sense. For someone who is struggling like yourself, it may help to read the wikipedia guide to each chapter before you read it, or the sparknotes summary of each chapter. Failing that, get Harry Blamire's New Bloomsday Book as a guide.

If you have more specific queries post them up. It's not an easy book to read and it's normal to be confused at times. Many chapters are written in different styles and each chapter roughly corresponds to an equivalent chapter in The Odyssey by Homer. There are also many references to Hamlet throughout, so a good knowledge of these two works, though not necessary, is helpful.

adrian522

One piece of advice I've been giving is if you are struggling with a particular chapter don't be afraid leaving that chapter for the time being and skipping ahead to the next one, as they are all written in different styles just because one chapter doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean the whole book will be like that.

endacl

Read it out loud.

diddlybit

A colleague of mine got an audio version of it from her local library and she listens to it in the car. She said it really helped as the audio version conveyed a lot of the humour in the book.

I may try it because in the numerous attempts I made to read it, I found it decidedly unfunny.

HeadPig

Reading aloud or listening to audio will definitely help. With the internal monologue and lack of quotation marks it can be hard to see who is speaking so it's helpful for that too

johnthemull

There is no doubt that the book makes sense (After very careful academic dissection)
I have tried many times to read the book and got quite far into it a number of times before losing the will to live.
I cant help thinking that on one level this book is just a monstrous testimony to the arrogance of James Joyce.
For me his intellectual arrogance oozes out of every page in the book.
I have since forgiven myself for not making it over the finish line and only read books that I actually enjoy reading.

HeadPig

johnthemull wrote: »

There is no doubt that the book makes sense (After very careful academic dissection)
I have tried many times to read the book and got quite far into it a number of times before losing the will to live.
I cant help thinking that on one level this book is just a monstrous testimony to the arrogance of James Joyce.
For me his intellectual arrogance oozes out of every page in the book.
I have since forgiven myself for not making it over the finish line and only read books that I actually enjoy reading.

If people don't enjoy it that's fair enough, but it must be acknowledged that for many it's a very enjoyable book, not academically, but just as a fun book to pick up and get lost in

endacl

johnthemull wrote: »

I have since forgiven myself for not making it over the finish line and only read books that I actually enjoy reading.

Makes sense.

A book you haven't read is like cabbage to a kid. You don't know until you try.

Queen-Mise

Ulysses is very funny - albeit a lot of the humour is verbal. It makes sense when read out loud.

My tip is to download the audio, and listen and read at the same time. I was in hysterics at the beginning chapter, and the one in the pub. Very funny.
I really disliked the chapter in the whore house - some very disturbing imagery in there.

Bear in mind, is that the writing gets more laboursome as the day/book goes on to indicate that Bloom is getting tired as evening/night comes.

And the final chapter by Molly is genius - 'you'd vomit up a nicer face'

HeadPig

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Ulysses is very funny - albeit a lot of the humour is verbal. It makes sense when read out loud.

My tip is to download the audio, and listen and read at the same time. I was in hysterics at the beginning chapter, and the one in the pub. Very funny.
I really disliked the chapter in the whore house - some very disturbing imagery in there.

Bear in mind, is that the writing gets more laboursome as the day/book goes in to indicate that Bloom is getting tired as evening/night comes.

And the final chapter by Molly is genius - 'you'd vomit up a nicer face'

I wouldn't be a huge fan of Circe either. But yes, Cyclops is very funny. Penelope is amazing. Proteus, too, is breathtaking.

Baked.noodle

I studied it in NUIG and I found the book very challenging. I suggest you get hold of past papers and keep the questions in your mind as you take notes. I had a general question prepared, and a question about a chapter of my choice. In the end, I could pick any chapter I liked on exam day, and got a good grade just focusing on one chapter with a little bit of the wider context.

HeadPig

Baked.noodle wrote: »

I studied it in NUIG and I found the book very challenging. I suggest you get hold of past papers and keep the questions in your mind as you take notes. I had a general question prepared, and a question about a chapter of my choice. In the end, I could pick any chapter I liked on exam day, and got a good grade just focusing on one chapter with a little bit of the wider context.

I don't think OP is studying it. He may just want to enjoy it

Queen-Mise

HeadPig wrote: »

I wouldn't be a huge fan of Circe either. But yes, Cyclops is very funny. Penelope is amazing. Proteus, too, is breathtaking.

My favourite chapter is the one on the beach (

the **** one

)- the writing is absolutely beautiful throughout. Don't know the name of it though, and not googling:o

HeadPig

Queen-Mise wrote: »

My favourite chapter is the one on the beach (

the **** one

)- the writing is absolutely beautiful throughout. Don't know the name of it though, and not googling:o

Nausicaa!

catallus

"The summer evening had begun to fold the world in its mysterious embrace. Far away in the west the sun was setting and the last glow of all too fleeting day lingered lovingly on sea and strand, on the proud promontory of dear old Howth guarding as ever the waters of the bay, on the weedgrown rocks along Sandymount shore and, last but not least, on the quiet church whence there streamed forth at times upon the stillness the voice of prayer to her who is in her pure radiance a beacon ever to the stormtossed heart of man, Mary, star of the sea."

Writing like this takes one's breath away. The book is full of this kind of thing. A familiarity with classical writing and Greek and Irish myth is necessary to understand all of the stuff Joyce references (and especially with Ulysses it doesn't hurt if you know more than a little bit about turn of the century Irish and English politics), but that was his main party-piece; making obscure references to forgotten lore. It is nice to dip into now and again but I found the effort is not really well repaid, apart from the learning that comes with looking the stuff up. Often I find books about the books are more fun than the books themselves.

HeadPig

catallus wrote: »

"The summer evening had begun to fold the world in its mysterious embrace. Far away in the west the sun was setting and the last glow of all too fleeting day lingered lovingly on sea and strand, on the proud promontory of dear old Howth guarding as ever the waters of the bay, on the weedgrown rocks along Sandymount shore and, last but not least, on the quiet church whence there streamed forth at times upon the stillness the voice of prayer to her who is in her pure radiance a beacon ever to the stormtossed heart of man, Mary, star of the sea."

Writing like this takes one's breath away. The book is full of this kind of thing. A familiarity with classical writing and Greek and Irish myth is necessary to understand all of the stuff Joyce references (and especially with Ulysses it doesn't hurt if you know more than a little bit about turn of the century Irish and English politics), but that was his main party-piece; making obscure references to forgotten lore. It is nice to dip into now and again but I found the effort is not really well repaid, apart from the learning that comes with looking the stuff up. Often I find books about the books are more fun than the books themselves.

That's a beautiful passage from Nausicaa but i wouldn't even remember it as a great quote from Ulysses as so many others top it.

I find the obscure references are something you can explore if you like that kin d of stuff, but no understanding is needed to enjoy the book's beautiful prose.

catallus

Most people I guess would read a novel to be told a story; passages like the one above are all very well but if they are not part of a coherent narrative following the tale being told then "novel" wouldn't be something one could call that book. I for one couldn't see myself starting Ulysses from scratch without even a passing knowledge of where and when it was set, who several of the minor characters are supposed to represent, how it is following a trail across Dublin and using that trail to loosely represent Homeric myth. That's without even considering the difficulty in following what was back then the very new approach of streamofconciousness writing and the seemingly never-ending tangents taken in the text discussing the issues of the day in 1904. My own feelings about it are ambiguous; I can enjoy the more artful passages but a lot of the novel, especially the final third, leaves me scratching my head wondering if the writer has lost the run of himself and isn't trying very hard to write well and is instead testing the patience of the reader with impenetrable guff. The well known quote from Joyce that he "put in so many enigmas and puzzles that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant," along with what we know about the abomination that is Finnegan'sWake should be a warning sign for anyone trying to get to grips with the more difficult stuff. I am in no doubt that Joyce was a genius when it came to composing sentences and creating characters but if the measure of a novelist is communicating human truth then maybe APortraitoftheArtistasAYoungMan or Dubliners would be a better place to start.

HeadPig

catallus wrote: »

Most people I guess would read a novel to be told a story; passages like the one above are all very well but if they are not part of a coherent narrative following the tale being told then "novel" wouldn't be something one could call that book. I for one couldn't see myself starting Ulysses from scratch without even a passing knowledge of where and when it was set, who several of the minor characters are supposed to represent, how it is following a trail across Dublin and using that trail to loosely represent Homeric myth. That's without even considering the difficulty in following what was back then the very new approach of streamofconciousness writing and the seemingly never-ending tangents taken in the text discussing the issues of the day in 1904. My own feelings about it are ambiguous; I can enjoy the more artful passages but a lot of the novel, especially the final third, leaves me scratching my head wondering if the writer has lost the run of himself and isn't trying very hard to write well and is instead testing the patience of the reader with impenetrable guff. The well known quote from Joyce that he "put in so many enigmas and puzzles that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant," along with what we know about the abomination that is Finnegan'sWake should be a warning sign for anyone trying to get to grips with the more difficult stuff. I am in no doubt that Joyce was a genius when it came to composing sentences and creating characters but if the measure of a novelist is communicating human truth then maybe APortraitoftheArtistasAYoungMan or Dubliners would be a better place to start.

I can tell we won't agree so I won't argue with you. All I'll say is that Ulysses has quite a straightforward narrative when you get down to it and that knowledge of Homeric references is not needed to enjoy the book in it's simplest form. Some people will never enjoy it, one has to love words and perhaps foreign languages as well and some parts are less rewarding than others, but I read it the first time without a clue of The Odyssey or anything else and still loved it. I will add that Finnegans Wake is not an abomination and is one of my favourite books.

catallus

I think the final page of FW is one of the most beautiful passages in all literature, which makes the 600 or so pages of what went before all the more frustrating. I've spent some time on it; it is a great mind playing a silly game.

I'm not suggesting pistols at dawn here either

HeadPig

catallus wrote: »

I think the final page of FW is one of the most beautiful passages in all literature, which makes the 600 or so pages of what went before all the more frustrating. I've spent some time on it; it is a great mind playing a silly game.

I'm not suggesting pistols at dawn here either

The Anna Livia Plurabelle chapter is one of the greatest pieces of writing in all literature too, I think. Joyce's reading gives us the benefit of the rhythm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1FcSGDgU8Q

Brinimartini

HeadPig wrote: »

I can tell we won't agree so I won't argue with you. All I'll say is that Ulysses has quite a straightforward narrative when you get down to it and that knowledge of Homeric references is not needed to enjoy the book in it's simplest form. Some people will never enjoy it, one has to love words and perhaps foreign languages as well and some parts are less rewarding than others, but I read it the first time without a clue of The Odyssey or anything else and still loved it. I will add that Finnegans Wake is not an abomination and is one of my favourite books.

Then you need professional help old bean.

Qualitymark

Ulysses is a great combination of Dublin slang and intensely aware stream-of-consciousness. It's always self-reflective; for instance, here's Joyce, the most anti-nationalist of men, reading a surprising section:

http://publicdomainreview.org/2012/06/15/james-joyce-reading-his-work-19241929/

Skill Magill

20 odd years ago I went to a lecture by David Norris who tried to make sense of it. He explained that it was written in a style that has to be spoken (whether aloud or in your head), he brought one part to life by talking about the ebb and flow of the sea and the associated s sounds, so not only was Joyce talking about the tide going in and out, you could also hear it by the associated s sounds. It operates on several levels.
If Davis Norris has a spoken version of the book I'd buy it!

Qualitymark

Here's a rather nice **freeee!!!** audiobook of Ulysses from archive.org:

https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-Audiobook

HeadPig

Brinimartini wrote: »

Then you need professional help old bean.

I just like good books and good writing, old bean.

Qualitymark

Brinimartini: Then you need professional help old bean.

HeadPig wrote: »

I just like good books and good writing, old bean.

Ah, pulses are quickening

endacl

Qualitymark wrote: »

Ah, pulses are quickening

Old beans are pulses.

Skill Magill

endacl wrote: »

Old beans are pulses.

endacl

Skill Magill wrote: »

That would be embarrassing