€490m meant for local services diverted to Irish Water

Irish Steve

Daith wrote: »

Or like most companies a mixture of both company performance and individual performance.


Moving on from bonuses...

Do people think that a household should pay the water charge if their drinking water is unsuitable/dirty?

That's a whole other can of worms, which is probably going to be ignored by all and sundry.

The best solution would be for water to be tested on a regular basis, and if FOR ANY REASON INCLUDING EXCESSIVE HARDNESS, it does not completely meet the laid down EU standard, charges are void.

The chances of that happening are about as good as the chances of a politician doing time for fraud. A good few years ago, Meath County Council went to the EU for a derogation on water quality because the hardness in the local water was way above the acceptable levels, and guess what, they got the derogation, so could continue to provide unacceptable water.

Consumers should not have to fight the system to get it to meet the standards that have been laid down by the EU, and once charges specific to water are in place, it's not unreasonable to expect the water that's supplied to meet the standard that's laid down.

Trouble is, the "standard" approach to a failing like this is to take the offender to court, and impose fines. Like fining a semi state is going to somehow motivate them to change their attitude and actions, all that does is reduce the money they have available to run the service, unless of course the fines are to be taken directly out of the salaries of the directors and senior managers. Now, there's a good idea, make the punishment actually affect the people at the top, then maybe there would be a reaction.

Could the same happen to politicians when they fail to bring in legislation to conform to EU requirements, the fine from the EU has to be paid by the Government TD's? That might get their attention, little else seems to.

Satriale

Victor wrote: »

Once upon a time, I was working on the design of a project with about 500 apartments with other elements. On each story of a building, the architect put two apartments, typically for 3-5 storeys. I suggested instead, that there be 4 apartments per storey, as this meant they could share the lifts, stairs, lobbies and other elements. That knocked about €1 million off the cost of the project for no diminution of quality. Shouldn't such thought processes be promoted? Are should we go with "Ah, sure it's grand, this is what we've always done."

What did the property developer do with all this money you saved him by squashing in those extra tenants into smaller spaces? Any chance its one of those buildings we are paying for now?

I suggest lining the walls with bunk beds the next time you can really get the numbers in then... (no consultancy fee needed for that advice;))

Victor

Satriale wrote: »

What did the property developer do with all this money you saved him by squashing in those extra tenants into smaller spaces? Any chance its one of those buildings we are paying for now?

1. Actually, this allowed apartments to be bigger - a less cost - so there was no squashing.
2. The development didn't proceed, before I left the firm I was working for.

Cantona's Collars

Ray D'Arcy discussed the logo for €20k topic,he got onto a graphic designer who made up an identical one in 10 minutes.Irish Water claimed that their logo was a bespoke design however the one made up for Ray was available for €60 online.
He'll post the logo's on his blog today,should be interesting comparing them.Needless to say nobody got back to him when he made contact about how they could do one for a pittance yet Irish Water forked out 20 grand.

denlaw

Irish Steve wrote: »

That's a whole other can of worms, which is probably going to be ignored by all and sundry.

The best solution would be for water to be tested on a regular basis, and if FOR ANY REASON INCLUDING EXCESSIVE HARDNESS, it does not completely meet the laid down EU standard, charges are void.

The chances of that happening are about as good as the chances of a politician doing time for fraud. A good few years ago, Meath County Council went to the EU for a derogation on water quality because the hardness in the local water was way above the acceptable levels, and guess what, they got the derogation, so could continue to provide unacceptable water.

Consumers should not have to fight the system to get it to meet the standards that have been laid down by the EU, and once charges specific to water are in place, it's not unreasonable to expect the water that's supplied to meet the standard that's laid down.

Trouble is, the "standard" approach to a failing like this is to take the offender to court, and impose fines. Like fining a semi state is going to somehow motivate them to change their attitude and actions, all that does is reduce the money they have available to run the service, unless of course the fines are to be taken directly out of the salaries of the directors and senior managers. Now, there's a good idea, make the punishment actually affect the people at the top, then maybe there would be a reaction.

Could the same happen to politicians when they fail to bring in legislation to conform to EU requirements, the fine from the EU has to be paid by the Government TD's? That might get their attention, little else seems to.

There's money to be made, a little thing like undrinkable/substandard water isn't going to stop these lads i'm afraid...

Phoebas

zerks wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy discussed the logo for €20k topic,he got onto a graphic designer who made up an identical one in 10 minutes.Irish Water claimed that their logo was a bespoke design however the one made up for Ray was available for €60 online.

€60 for an identical copy of someone else's logo? What a rip off!

donegal__road

you can get a logo designed on fiverr.com for $5, in less than a day.

Link

In a previous existence I was a graphic designer...

Phoebas

donegal__road wrote: »

In a previous existence I was a graphic designer.

Did you give it up because you couldn't make a living out it by charging $5 for your work? :pac:

donegal__road

Phoebas wrote: »

Did you give it up because you couldn't make a living out it by charging $5 for your work? :pac:

to be honest, I found the discipline of graphic design a constraint on my creativity
I prefer a larger canvas and a looser brush!

Phoebas

donegal__road wrote: »

to be honest, I found the discipline of graphic design a constraint on my creativity
I prefer a larger canvas and a looser brush!

I noticed that alright.

Irish Steve

denlaw wrote: »

There's money to be made, a little thing like undrinkable/substandard water isn't going to stop these lads i'm afraid...

I know, they will be only too happy to be ripping people off with substandard product, unless we can get the regulator to take action, and we all know about the "power" of regulators, the standard phrase "it's not within our remit" is the first line of defence. There are others.

It was only a thought, most suppliers have to conform to standards to be able to sell their product. Why should Irish Water be allowed to get away with selling (possibly literally in some areas) Carp?

I can just see it now, the HSE taking cases against Irish Water for supplying sub standard product, and who will gain from that little circle?

The ones that always do, the Legal eagles in the Golden Circle, you may be very sure it will go all the way to the Supreme Court, or even to Tribunals, and it will be the taxpayer that ends up picking up the costs, which will be astronomic, and the end result will be very little real benefit to the consumer, and yet another massive boost for the Legal profession.

Makes me sick, fines and massive legal costs on a semi state, all that does is reduce the quality of service, unless the rules are changed to make the executives of the Semi State responsible for the failure personally liable for the costs and fines from their salaries and pensions. That might get their attention, and make them focus on the issues that matter. Pink Snow in O'Connell street is more likely though.

Phoebas

Irish Steve wrote: »

I know, they will be only too happy to be ripping people off with substandard product, unless we can get the regulator to take action, and we all know about the "power" of regulators, the standard phrase "it's not within our remit" is the first line of defence. There are others.

It was only a thought, most suppliers have to conform to standards to be able to sell their product. Why should Irish Water be allowed to get away with selling (possibly literally in some areas) Carp?

I can just see it now, the HSE taking cases against Irish Water for supplying sub standard product, and who will gain from that little circle?

The ones that always do, the Legal eagles in the Golden Circle, you may be very sure it will go all the way to the Supreme Court, or even to Tribunals, and it will be the taxpayer that ends up picking up the costs, which will be astronomic, and the end result will be very little real benefit to the consumer, and yet another massive boost for the Legal profession.

Makes me sick, fines and massive legal costs on a semi state, all that does is reduce the quality of service, unless the rules are changed to make the executives of the Semi State responsible for the failure personally liable for the costs and fines from their salaries and pensions. That might get their attention, and make them focus on the issues that matter. Pink Snow in O'Connell street is more likely though.

You obviously feel very strongly about this.
Can you point us to the submission you made to the consultation process? You did make a submission, didn't you?

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterSectorReform/Submissions/Individuals-1-67/

harryr711

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-water-staff-already-on-local-authority-pensions-d%C3%A1il-told-1.1663133

It appears many senior level employees in Irish Water are retired local authority employees who received lump sums and pensions.

Cantona's Collars

Phoebas wrote: »

€60 for an identical copy of someone else's logo? What a rip off!

More like €20k for a rip off of a cheaply available font,who's ripping who off? The €60 was mentioned on the show but was actually the designer's fee,the font used is available free online. http://www.todayfm.com/Irish-Water-Logo

They're lucky that Apple didn't copyright the font or the designers (lol) of the Irish Water logo would have a nice log time in court.

http://www.todayfm.com/content/000/images/000032/34230_60_news_hub_multi_630x0.jpg Can anyone tell the difference between the 20 grand one and the €60 one?

harryr711

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-water-manager-had-retired-with-334k-256103.html

Former Waterford county manager Ray O’Dwyer, who retired with a package totalling €334,000, has been appointed to a senior management position at Irish Water.

Cantona's Collars

harryr711 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-water-staff-already-on-local-authority-pensions-d%C3%A1il-told-1.1663133

It appears many senior level employees in Irish Water are retired local authority employees who received lump sums and pensions.

Jobs for the boys as usual.

Ush1

Don't normally get irked by this stuff but this has to be the worst sham of a government body yet.

Only off the ground and it's already irreconcilably corrupt and/or incompetent.

Irish Steve

Phoebas wrote: »

You obviously feel very strongly about this.
Can you point us to the submission you made to the consultation process? You did make a submission, didn't you?

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterSectorReform/Submissions/Individuals-1-67/

No I did NOT make a submission, having fought other areas of the system due to issues with flooding caused by bad planning and lack of appropriate supervision, I came to the conclusion some considerable time ago that making submissions, especially when you then have to pay to make them (An Bord Pleanala) is a waste of time, even when the case is absolutely clear, it will be ignored, and development on a flood plain area was allowed without adequate protection for properties upstream that are now at increased risk as a result of the changes that were put in place.

The vast majority of these "consultation" processes are a black smoke exercise, and most of the public never even get to know that there has been a request for submissions.

I don't like the fact that we're being hit for yet another badly structured organisation and tax, (although as I have said, Water does need to be paid for) and I like the manner in which it's being done even less, simply because of the total lack of transparency and accountability that is endemic within the Public and Semi State sector, and the remedies that are proposed are so often only a cover up for inefficient people and unsuitable systems and work practices.

As I mentioned in another thread, court action and subsequently fining a local authority for short comings in their operation achieves nothing, other than another substantial lining of the pockets of the legal profession, the underlying issue of incompetent staff is untouched, and the costs plus fine is a direct reduction in the already poor quality of service that is provided by the organisation. The ONLY solution to the problems of this nature is to make the people at the top of the organisations accountable and in some cases personally responsible for the performance of the organisation, and if they fail, then their job, and possibly their personal finance should be at risk.

The UK equivalent of the PAC was interviewing the heads of the Electricity industry yesterday, and some very acerbic comments were made about the lack of information displayed by the people from the industry. It is the same here.

In the not too distant future, you may be sure that the standard response to many questions thrown at senior executives of IW will get a response along the lines of "that issue is outside of our remit", because that is the way that the Golden Circle has found to protect itself, keep changing the system, and make sure that the new way of doing things is mired in obscurity so that there are plenty of ways out when the hard questions are being asked.

Yes, I despise many of the State and Semi State organisations, because they are inefficient, arrogant and ineffective. 12 YEARS after a flood that did €120,000 damage here, I am still trying to get a drain that should never have been put where it was removed from the line of a stream, but getting an appropriate response from the local authority that is "responsible" is impossible, and even the local TD's are struggling to get a reply from the people concerned.

suicide_circus

snouts firmly in the trough as usual.

Banjo String

Hang on to your anger, don't let it go folks.

Local elections coming up. Show these chancers who they're supposed to be working for, not enslaving.

harryr711

Banjo String wrote: »

Hang on to your anger, don't let it go folks.

Local elections coming up. Show these chancers who they're supposed to be working for, not enslaving.

A few people I know who voted FG in the last election will be holding on to their anger until the next General Election after this shambles.

Banjo String

harryr711 wrote: »

A few people I know who voted FG in the last election will be holding on to their anger until the next General Election after this shambles.

Here for the good time. Not a long time.

Phoebas

Irish Steve wrote: »

No I did NOT make a submission, having fought other areas of the system due to issues with flooding caused by bad planning and lack of appropriate supervision, I came to the conclusion some considerable time ago that making submissions, especially when you then have to pay to make them (An Bord Pleanala) is a waste of time, even when the case is absolutely clear, it will be ignored, and development on a flood plain area was allowed without adequate protection for properties upstream that are now at increased risk as a result of the changes that were put in place.

The vast majority of these "consultation" processes are a black smoke exercise, and most of the public never even get to know that there has been a request for submissions.
[... and other stuff ...]

You put so much time into complaining here, but you didn't bother even to make a simple (and free) submission. Are you going to bother voting at the next election or is that just a pointless exercise too?

Irish Steve

Phoebas wrote: »

You put so much time into complaining here, but you didn't bother even to make a simple (and free) submission. Are you going to bother voting at the next election or is that just a pointless exercise too?

Yes.

Ignore activated, you clearly don't read what people say,

homerjay2005

salaries revealed...some shocking figures in there...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0123/499785-irish-water/

New information has emerged tonight on the breakdown, salaries and potential bonuses of staff at Irish Water.

It shows that more than one third of the staff recruited so far worked previously in local authorities and 29 staff are earning over €100,000.

It also reveals that almost 100 staff could earn future performance related bonuses of between 14% and 15%.

The information was obtained tonight in a parliamentary question from Labour TD Kevin Humphreys whose previous request last November was not answered.

Mr Humphreys welcomed the answers, but expressed concern that some senior managers may receive performance-related bonuses of 15%.

The information shows that of Irish Water's 310 staff, 59 had been with Bord Gáis, 107 had worked in local authorities, 139 were recruited externally and five worked in the Department of the Environment.

They all went through a competitive recruitment process.

In terms of salaries, around 60% are earning less than €70,000.

The information shows that 28 are on salaries over €100,000 and one, who is presumably Chief Executive John Tierney, is earning over €150,000.

It was revealed at the Oireachtas committees last week that employees could earn bonuses.

While no bonuses have yet been paid, a breakdown shows that performance-related bonuses will range from between 2.75% to 15%.

It shows 94 staff could earn between 14% and 15% in bonuses.

A car allowance is in place for senior managers who use their own cars.

The information shows that 27 senior managers will receive this €10,500 allowance, which is taxable and non-pensionable. This is in lieu of mileage expenses.

Irish Water also provides health insurance of the VHI Plan C or its equivalent to nine senior managers.

This evening, Irish Water reiterated that its model is based on the Bord Gáis model.

A spokeswoman said there are no increments and a pay freeze is in place until 2016, which will save €34 million over four years.

No Pants

A car allowance is in place for senior managers who use their own cars.

The information shows that 27 senior managers will receive this €10,500 allowance, which is taxable and non-pensionable. This is in lieu of mileage expenses.

I'd imagine this also neatly dodges any requirement for receipts.

Satriale

they deserve every penny of it, the auld mileage is hard on the cruibins...

No Pants

A spokeswoman said there are no increments and a pay freeze is in place until 2016, which will save €34 million over four years.

My manager has decided to not give me a €10m bonus every year for the next five years. He has saved the company €50m. The man's a genius.

Irish Steve

No Pants wrote: »

I'd imagine this also neatly dodges any requirement for receipts.

And probably also has useful implications for the benefit in kind of a company car.

VHI Plan C? Another nice perk, expensive too.

Looking at the former employments, it's clear that this is another Golden Circle stitch up for the general public. Why are there so few former private sector employees at the higher levels? Could it be that the advertisement of the posts was not exactly enticing, or that they didn't get much visibility other than in the Semi State sector.

No real surprises in this new information if we are to be brutally honest.

homerjay2005

to put things into perspective, the CEs salary would be comparable or even better, than the leaders of most countries in the World.

according to a guardian report into public finances, just under 70 public funded people earn more than Obama in this country which is simply astounding.