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Disciplinary meeting at work

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  • 17-01-2014 10:43pm
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi,
    I recently made a mistake in work on one of our client's accounts. I basically clicked the wrong button and accidentally froze their spending. I immediately undid my action and the account and funds on it looked back to normal afterwards, so to me there was no need for concern.

    However, someone else in the company noticed the action and undo on the account and asked my manager about it. My manager asked me about it and straight away I told him what happened. He has since had an investigation meeting with me. He has confirmed with our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds. However he has a major issue with the fact that I did not mention the mistake. I said that I felt I had no reason to, since everything looked back to normal afterwards. He asked if I know enough about our systems to know 100% that there could be no repercussions to my action and I said no as I am not engineer but based on everything I DO know, there was nothing to worry about.

    I now have a disciplinary meeting scheduled with a 3rd party manager next week. I am terrified I will lose my job. My manager has said to me a few times (casually) that there are areas I need to work on such as higher productivity, better communication skills etc and he never seemed to like me much. This is my first big mistake in the job. I am a good worker, great attendance, love the company etc. This is the first formal process I have ever been through in a job. We have a grievance policy and I am worried that not telling of the mistake would be classed as gross misconduct. My manager can be quite black and white about things and our grievance policy is quite vague on what constitutes a warning but very thorough on what is gross misconduct (theft, assault, bringing the company into disrepute, severe trust breakdown). I spoke to HR and she said that she thinks it will only be a warning but she could just be saying that- HR protect the employer!

    Any advice would be much appreciated.


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    #2
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    If an action can lead to dismissal you have to be informed of that ahead of time. All evidence should be presented to you ahead of the formal meeting.

    If in doubt see an employment solicitor. I highly recommend doing this in all disciplinary situations, just the whiff of a solicitors involvement usually puts manners on a company's procedures. That said in this case the business seem completely reasonable, having engaged with you in an investigation and engaging a third party manager to make the final decision in a separate formal disciplinary meeting. All of which is best practice.

    You mention the grievance procedure which is a separate thing. The disciplinary procedure is was is used in this instance, the grievance procedure is for when you have an issue with the business.

    I'd take your licks and move on frankly.


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    #3
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Well sorry to burst your bubble but you don't appear to be "a good worker" if your manager has to point out your lack of communication, productivity etc. multiple times. The fact you decided not to tell about something which you admit yourself could have significant ramifications with out you knowing it to a client with out telling your manager because you thought everything was ok (knowing that you did not know the system) is not exactly a glowing character reference either.

    If I was you I'd walk in there and be honest about the mistake and try to sharpen up on your work style going forward; If you had told your boss about it you'd at most had a slap on your wrist; now you have a disciplinary instead. I'd say the likely outcome would be verbal or first written warning as likely outcomes (if there's any warning at all).


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    #4
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    First of all, it is very hard to fire someone from their job.
    It has to be seen as gross negligence, stealing etc. to be fired.
    Do not worry, look up some info on nera.ie and Citizen Advice beauru.
    Make sure you have a witness with you, minutes of the meeting have to be copied and given to you.
    Any action from the company appropriate to what happened, a verbal warning at the most, which will only last 6 months on your employee file.
    Is there a HR depth?


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    #5
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Nody wrote: »
    Well sorry to burst your bubble but you don't appear to be "a good worker" if your manager has to point out your lack of communication, productivity etc. multiple times. The fact you decided not to tell about something which you admit yourself could have significant ramifications with out you knowing it to a client with out telling your manager because you thought everything was ok (knowing that you did not know the system) is not exactly a glowing character reference either.

    If I was you I'd walk in there and be honest about the mistake and try to sharpen up on your work style going forward; If you had told your boss about it you'd at most had a slap on your wrist; now you have a disciplinary instead. I'd say the likely outcome would be verbal or first written warning as likely outcomes (if there's any warning at all).

    Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
    Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.


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    #6
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Doom wrote: »
    Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
    Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.
    Right back at you; he's a a disciplinary hearing and they can give any sanction from none to fired. There is no law that require them to give a verbal first and I've gone through enough hearings to have seen most calls being made.


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    #7
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Nody wrote: »
    Right back at you; he's a a disciplinary hearing and they can give any sanction from none to fired. There is no law that require them to give a verbal first and I've gone through enough hearings to have seen most calls being made.

    So have I pal, you are giving the impression the op is fcuked. ..there is employment law in Ireland. Like I said it is quite hard to fire someone these days...it only happens when people don't know their rights or have seriously fcuked up. Companies should have a clearly laid out disciplinary procedure or they can leave themselves exposed to been sued in court.


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    #8
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Nera...
    http://www.labourcourt.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship.html#tabs-5

    Op... go look up your rights and don't be afraid to defend yourself...best of luck


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    #9
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    While Nody is a bit blunt in what he's saying he is absolutely correct. A disciplinary can involve any sanction and stages can be skipped if the infraction warrants. The only requirement is that if there is a possibility of the employee being fired they must be informed of this ahead of time.


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    #10
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Bepolite wrote: »
    While Nody is a bit blunt in what he's saying he is absolutely correct. A disciplinary can involve any sanction and stages can be skipped if the infraction warrants. The only requirement is that if there is a possibility of the employee being fired they must be informed of this ahead of time.

    Its not North Korea we're living in, I successfully got a work colleague reinstated to his job because the company jumped the gun thinking they could do what they wanted. ...its very prevalent in Irish companies...In my experience Irish management are very badly informed when it comes to workers rights, a lot of them think they are Kim Jong-un at these meetings


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    #11
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    Its not North Korea we're living in, I successfully got a work colleague reinstated to his job because the company jumped the gun thinking they could do what they wanted. ...its very prevalent in Irish companies...In my experience Irish management are very badly informed when it comes to workers rights, a lot of them think they are Kim Jong-un at these meetings

    It's not North Korea, it's not the US, it's not even France or the UK although certain EU laws and decisions would have an impact on our employment law. Irish companies can indeed be ill-informed about an employees rights, hence the reason I always suggest seeking proper legal advice. You yourself have got it wrong and refuse to admit it so I'm sure there are a few manager out there that do the same.

    From what the OP has said this company seems to be following best practice, and while I am no fan of poorly run disciplinary procedures, a company has a right to conduct legitimate hearings and make decisions with under performing staff. Doing so fairly lets everyone know where they stand and what needs to be done to address the situation.

    Ironically it's the socialist (more communist to be fair) agenda of a job for everyone that leads to poor performers being allowed to remain in their jobs despite a real reason to sack someone for being incompetent. Rights of the employee and employer have to be balanced.


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    #12
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    'Generally a dismissal is presumed to be unfair unless your employer can show substantial grounds to justify it'

    From nera.


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    #13
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    'Generally a dismissal is presumed to be unfair unless your employer can show substantial grounds to justify it'

    From nera.

    So? That's a given. That doesn't mean that a given act can't be gross misconduct - e.g. theft or so serious as to warrant an immediate written warning. Are you suggesting that if someone lifts money out of a shop till and spends it on hookers, they have to get a verbal warning, followed by two written warnings before they can be dismissed? Does that not seem a bit silly?


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    #14
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.


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    #15
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Bepolite wrote: »
    So? That's a given. That doesn't mean that a given act can't be gross misconduct - e.g. theft or so serious as to warrant an immediate written warning. Are you suggesting that if someone lifts money out of a shop till and spends it on hookers, they have to get a verbal warning, followed by two written warnings before they can be dismissed? Does that not seem a bit silly?

    I've already said stealing IS gross misconduct and along with H&S breeches and THAT they would more than likely result in been fired...have you ever been in the labour court...I have 3 times, judge's are great a spotting bull**** from employees and employers.

    I rest my case..... :-)


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    #16
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.

    That's your prerogative but if you did think it was you'd do exactly as described, investigate and then hand the file over to an independent party to make a decision.

    As I've advised if the OP is in any doubt as to his rights consult a legal professional.


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    #17
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    I've already said stealing IS gross misconduct and along with H&S breeches and THAT they would more than likely result in been fired...have you ever been in the labour court...I have 3 times, judge's are great a spotting bull**** from employees and employers.

    I rest my case..... :-)

    Rest it all you like it's pretty clear you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about from your posts. I can only hope you're not involved in any employee representation because it's gung-ho, half informed, the management are always wrong, even when they bend over backwards to do things properly attitude that has ruined the union movement both here and in the UK.


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    #18
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,257 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Doom wrote: »
    'under performing staff' (your words)......the person made an error and corrected it, I would not consider that as been deserving of any disciplinary action, good luck to the company if they take any action against him, because their grounds are fairly poor.

    You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.


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    #19
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Rest it all you like it's pretty clear you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about from your posts. I can only hope you're not involved in any employee representation because it's gung-ho, half informed, the management are always wrong, even when they bend over backwards to do things properly attitude that has ruined the union movement both here and in the UK.

    Ha ha.... I can only laugh at that comment.


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    #20
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks for your replies everyone.
    I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
    Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
    I was given 24 working hours.

    Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
    I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.


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    #21
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Eoin wrote: »
    You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.

    Mod if you dish out comments for all, please do not single my post out...


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    #22
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,257 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Doom wrote: »
    Mod if you dish out comments for all, please do not single my post out...

    The difference is that you've stated facts that are inaccurate and you're now strongly hinting that the company would have no case against the OP. This forum is not for guessing the outcome of a case.

    Report any specific posts you want (not mine again, please) and we will look at them. PM me if you want any more clarification.


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    #23
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    vasewater wrote: »
    Thanks for your replies everyone.
    I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
    Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
    I was given 24 working hours.

    Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
    I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

    If there is one you should have been given a copy of it or reference it in your contract.


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    #24
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    vasewater wrote: »
    Thanks for your replies everyone.
    I intend to ask someone to come as a witness. He is another 3rd party manager from another department, who has given me great advice in the past.
    Is there a legal minimum notice period I must be given when the meeting is scheduled?
    I was given 24 working hours.

    For the investigation or the disciplinary hearing? The disciplinary would involve you being given all the evidence, time to review and prepare a defence. There is no set time but 24 hours seems unreasonable to me.
    vasewater wrote: »
    Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
    I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

    Unfair dismissal is usually (in my experience) a lack for fair procedures rather than the decision made. Not getting the disciplinary procedure wouldn't be an issue per se but you're entitled to 'natural justice' which involves:

    -The right to confront witnesses
    -The right to all the evidence against you
    -The right to notice of possible dismissal and the right to prepare a defence.
    -The right to a witness to take notes. In some cases you have the right to representation but in practice this is rare.

    It would obviously be better to provide you with the companies disciplinary procedure along with the evidence 'pack'.


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    #25
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Your defense could lay in the fact that you were not given a copy nor informed of the companies disciplinary procedure, so how did you know yo may have broken it.....
    -From your bother in the Union :-)


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    #26
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    Your defense could lay in the fact that you were not given a copy nor informed of the companies disciplinary procedure, so how did you know yo may have broken it.....
    -From your bother in the Union :-)

    If dismissed possibly, but as already stated the OP would have to be informed a head of time if the sanction of dismissal is on the table. It's very unlikely that a warning would be overturned on that basis.

    The OP clearly understands he made an error and a disciplinary process will not give an exhaustive list things that may lead to disciplinary proceedings.

    OP can you clarify what stage you are at?


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    #27
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Bepolite wrote: »



    Unfair dismissal is usually (in my experience) a lack for fair procedures rather than the decision made. Not getting the disciplinary procedure wouldn't be an issue per se

    This is mostly bollox....IMO


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    #28
    tatli_lokma
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    vasewater wrote: »

    Also, am I correct in saying that it is illegal to never provide an employee with a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? I believe unfair dismissal cases have been won purely on the basis of this?
    I had never seen ours prior to all this, we were never given a company handbook.

    You are correct, but bear mind you do not physically have to be given a hard copy of the handbook/procedure. Many companies make this information available on their intranet where staff can easily access it so best to check if it is indeed on there or not before using this as a defence.


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    #29
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    That was an interesting post you removed 'bepolite'....


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    #30
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Doom wrote: »
    That was an interesting post you removed 'bepolite'....

    I decided not to pull the thread off topic. Please feel free to start a thread on the standards of decision making in specific situations in Ireland, we can continue the discussion there. Please feel free to cite any decisions of the labour court you'd like to discuss.


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    #31
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    Eoin wrote: »
    You have no idea if this is the case - please don't comment on what you think the OP's or company's odds of being successful are. None of us here - including the OP by the sounds of things - know the full potential impact of the mistake.

    Yes we do.... mod you are jumping the gun too, or are you turning into a 'thanks' whore for BEPOLITE' :-)

    From the op's original post...
    'our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds'


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