Disciplinary meeting at work

Doom

Bepolite wrote: »

I decided not to pull the thread off topic. Please feel free to start a thread on the standards of decision making in specific situations in Ireland, we can continue the discussion there. Please feel free to cite any decisions of the labour court you'd like to discuss.

Nah....

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Yes we do.... mod you are jumping the gun too, or are you turning been a 'thanks' whore for BEPOLITE' :-)

From the op's original post...
'our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds'

The OP also stated that there were other issues that management wished to address and that one of the biggest problem was his lack of reporting of what had happened. We've no idea of the background to the mistake and what compliance procedures the OP's industry have to adhere to.

You seem to be suggesting that there must be consequence to a mistake before a company can take action. That is simply not the case, it is also not the case that a catastrophic loss to the business due to an error on the part of an employee attracts a greater sanction.

I fail to see why you are getting so worked up about this entire thing to be honest. You've demonstrated you don't have all the answers, contributed some good points yourself and disagreed with some points I and others have raised pretty much the way every internet Q&A works which is why you're mad if you rely on what's written here and don't consult a legal professional.

blindsider

vasewater wrote: »

Hi,
I recently made a mistake in work on one of our client's accounts. I basically clicked the wrong button and accidentally froze their spending. [Poorly designed IT system that does not have safeguards e.g. "Are you sure you want to freeze this account?"] I immediately B]Define immediately - < 5 mins?[/B undid my action and the account and funds on it looked back to normal afterwards, [You'll need to be able to describe this in the hearing] so to me there was no need for concern.

However, someone else in the company noticed the action and undo on the account and asked my manager about it. My manager asked me about it and straight away I told him what happened. He has since had an investigation meeting with me. He has confirmed with our engineers that there were no side effects to my mistake and no effects on the client funds. However he has a major issue with the fact that I did not mention the mistake. [Is there a policy/procedure that says you must/should?]I said that I felt I had no reason to, since everything looked back to normal afterwards. He asked if I know enough about our systems to know 100% that there could be no repercussions to my action [Does he know enough to know there was a possible concern, or is he bluffing?]and I said no as I am not engineer but based on everything I DO know, there was nothing to worry about.

.

How long are you with the company? Permanent contract?
When did you last have a Performance Review? Did it happen on time? How did it go? Did your Mgr give you things to work on? (Communication skills, productivity?) Did you work on them?

Has anyone else in the company made this mistake? How was it handled? If yes, that set a precedent.

Definitely bring a witness to the 'hearing' - a manager-level person is better.

Take notes.

Sign nothing - take it away with you and reaqd it carefully - get advice if necessary.

Keep your cool - do not get angry or impatient - practise repeating the same key phrases (your story) and smiling.

Be empathetic - the person on the other side of the table probably doesn't want to be there either.

For the future - charm offensive on your boss. Work on communications and productivity - get the work done on time and properly. Team-work is important!

If your boss is being unreasonable, put up with it for a bit - if this doesn't change, ask what the issue is. Address it. Keep notes of any conversations - I'd be surprised if he isn't. You'll need to go slightly more than half way on this - but not too much.

Last resort - if it really doesn't work out, get an internal transfer, or dust off the CV.

Best of luck!

smcgiff

It's not the end of the world OP. Unless the company has a specific policy that you breached it seems they are being heavy handed.

I doubt your job is (or could) be on the line going by your OP. Blindsider has given good advice.

Good Luck.

LegacyUser

Bepolite wrote: »

If dismissed possibly, but as already stated the OP would have to be informed a head of time if the sanction of dismissal is on the table. It's very unlikely that a warning would be overturned on that basis.

The OP clearly understands he made an error and a disciplinary process will not give an exhaustive list things that may lead to disciplinary proceedings.

OP can you clarify what stage you are at?

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

Borzoi

Hi OP - if you've any doubt about your job security you need to lawyer up now. A small outlay could save you a lot of grief down the road. On no account use another employee as your representative, they have theirown career to mind, and that will be their priority.

Bepolite

vasewater wrote: »

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

To clarify you've only been given 24 hours notice on this disciplinary? Seems odd given it's Saturday night now.

The disciplinary procedure might be based on another countries law, that doesn't mean you haven't been provided with it or that it isn't complaint with Irish Law.

While I don't fully agree with not involving a willing witness (I do to some degree) get a solicitor on to this straight away if you think you're being rail-roaded, it's a good idea to have one to consult anyway.

Best of luck OP - please keep us updated I hope it all goes well and is a storm in a tea-cup. I have nothing but sympathy for you I know how stressful it is.

LegacyUser

blindsider wrote: »

How long are you with the company? Permanent contract?
When did you last have a Performance Review? Did it happen on time? How did it go? Did your Mgr give you things to work on? (Communication skills, productivity?) Did you work on them?

I'm there 2 years. I made a side-step move to my current role after a year and a half, so I am 6 months in this role (if it makes any difference, I never got a new contract or was told there would be a new probationary period).[/quote]

blindsider wrote: »

Has anyone else in the company made this mistake? How was it handled? If yes, that set a precedent.

Yes, 2 people - including the manager- have made huge mistakes. Both obviously kept their jobs, but I have no idea if they reported their own mistakes or what. My manager has specifically said that the issue he has is that I made a mistake AND didn't report it.

The disciplinary procedure might be based on another countries law, that doesn't mean you haven't been provided with it or that it isn't complaint with Irish Law.

None of our HR intraweb content mentions a disciplinary procedure at all. Is it worth pointing out in the disciplinary hearing that I have never received a copy of our disciplinary procedure before now, and was not aware when I made the mistake that I could have been breaking it? If I mentioned that legally I should have received one when I joined, would this do me any harm?
It would at least let them know I've researched my rights?

blindsider

vasewater wrote: »

I have been told that this hearing "may lead to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Equally, the outcome may be that no disciplinary action will be taken."

Re: our handbook- Our company HQ is in another country, and the bulk of our employees work in that office. Anything HR related on the company intranet is based on that country's law, not Irish law.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, your contract of employment must be governed by Irish law. Your contract of employment - you do have one? - would have to be particularly convoluted for your contract to be based e.g. on US law. I can't see how it could be done - but you never know.

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Terms_of_Employment/

In short, this is my opinion, based on what you've told us:

i) Bring a witness to the meeting.

ii) If they make a good case (you'll know yourself), accept a verbal warning, but confirm (i writing or email)that it's for a defined period - usually 6 months. This is sometimes called a 'step-back' process, where the Verbal is removed from your file after 6 months.

iii) As per my earlier post, go on the charm offensive for 6 months. In early, leave late, communicate and be productive. ADD VALUE!

iv) Use this time to re-evaluate - is this the job for me, and can I build a good relationship with my boss. TBH most managers like team members who deliver - they're not too worried about personality - they're not in work to make friends. Like = have professional respect for.

v) From what you've told us, anything more than a Verbal is unreasonable - if they push for a Written warning, go legal. Ask for EVERYTHING in writing. (It really shouldn't come to this.)

Finally, I have a small concern that your boss is making a fairly big deal (involving HR and being formal) about a seemingly trivial incident which resulted in no loss or harm. There may be regulatory issues, but surely the computer system doesn't allow you to make major changes without confirmation - if it does, can the system itself be compliant?

Anyway, that's my 2c worth. Hope it turns out ok for you.

didntgotoplan

I'm in the middle of a similar situation as the OP (Good luck with your meeting next week, mine is on Tuesday) and I was just looking around for information on disciplinary meetings and just want to say thanks to blindsider for the info.

wuffly

I think this is all a bit over the top, they are likely having a disciplinary meeting to show they have investigated what happened on the account and to close it off fully. Any action on an account like this would be flagged in an audit and questions asked, his manager needs to be able to say it was investigated fully and no fraud etc... was found, and he has the report to prove it. Or if for some reason the client managed to find out they would also expect and be in titled to find out what was happening on their account and know it didn't go un-investigated. Its more likely this is just procedure, this hearing my also benefit the OP and clear them of an accusations of willful wrong doing. By all means bring a witness if you feel you need to, but it might not be as bad as you and everyone else seem to be making out. Good luck either way

LegacyUser

blindsider wrote: »

Unless I'm very much mistaken, your contract of employment must be governed by Irish law. Your contract of employment - you do have one? - would have to be particularly convoluted for your contract to be based e.g. on US law. I can't see how it could be done - but you never know.

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Terms_of_Employment/

I just re-read my contract and it is based on Irish law as it mentions the Working Time Directive.[/quote]

blindsider wrote: »

In short, this is my opinion, based on what you've told us:

i) Bring a witness to the meeting.

I have asked a manager I am friendly with from another department if he will do it, am waiting to hear back.

blindsider wrote: »

Finally, I have a small concern that your boss is making a fairly big deal (involving HR and being formal) about a seemingly trivial incident which resulted in no loss or harm. There may be regulatory issues, but surely the computer system doesn't allow you to make major changes without confirmation - if it does, can the system itself be compliant?

This is an area I am going to focus on in my defense.
Before I joined this team, another team member made a HUGE mistake with massive repercussions, using a tool that had no safeguards. As a result of his mistake, that tool had a number of safeguards put in place. But yet no checks were done to make sure the other tools were safe- The tool I used has absolutely none. There isn't even a nag to say "Are you sure you want to do this?".
I am going to argue that, because this tool has no safeguards, I assumed that was because it was 0 risk and didn't need them, because surely ALL of our tools would have been audited after the last employee made such a huge mistake.

On reporting the mistake, I am going to say that our manager has never given guidelines as to when we should do this, so I assumed this was down to our own judgement. I think I will also point out that I wasn't aware of breaking any displinary procedures since I was never informed of what they were.

smcgiff

vasewater wrote: »

I just re-read my contract and it is based on Irish law as it mentions the Working Time Directive.



I have asked a manager I am friendly with from another department if he will do it, am waiting to hear back.



This is an area I am going to focus on in my defense.
Before I joined this team, another team member made a HUGE mistake with massive repercussions, using a tool that had no safeguards. As a result of his mistake, that tool had a number of safeguards put in place. But yet no checks were done to make sure the other tools were safe- The tool I used has absolutely none. There isn't even a nag to say "Are you sure you want to do this?".
I am going to argue that, because this tool has no safeguards, I assumed that was because it was 0 risk and didn't need them, because surely ALL of our tools would have been audited after the last employee made such a huge mistake.

On reporting the mistake, I am going to say that our manager has never given guidelines as to when we should do this, so I assumed this was down to our own judgement. I think I will also point out that I wasn't aware of breaking any displinary procedures since I was never informed of what they were.

Sounds well thought out.

Bepolite

The problem you're going to have is that they will fire that right back at you. It's not a breach of a disciplinary procedure, its an action that has resulted in the disciplinary procedure being invoked. What you're going to have to say is I didn't know X action would lead to disciplinary action. It's weak as there will never be an exhaustive list of what will result in disciplinary action.

The other side of this will be that you didn't know there was a disciplinary procedure, which I can't see doing you much good, especially if it then turns out you should have been aware of it from your contract/intranet.

Best of luck OP.

Ray13

Doom wrote: »

Please don't give advice as you are wrong, they cannot give a written 1st, verbal only.
Unless they are thinking of gross negligence, stealing or H&S breech, which none of this is, the person realize their mistake and corrected it...imo they understand how to do their job...Anyone can may mistakes, but not all can fix them.

They can give any warning they want to, be it 1st verbal, 1st written, or even final.... The company decides what is 'gross'..... that said, it does not mean that the company's decision is fair..... and if the OP feels it is unfair, then they should seek an appeal, if that fails, seek redress from the Rights Commissioner / Labour Courts etc.

Doom

Ray13 wrote: »

They can give any warning they want to, be it 1st verbal, 1st written, or even final.... The company decides what is 'gross'..... that said, it does not mean that the company's decision is fair..... and if the OP feels it is unfair, then they should seek an appeal, if that fails, seek redress from the Rights Commissioner / Labour Courts etc.

That's bollox...that would only happened you sit there and take it.

didntgotoplan

My meeting was changed to today and I kept calm, brought a witness who knew all about what they were telling me I did wrong and gave my side with records of the conversations that happened. I've another meeting at the end of the week to provide the outcome but it is not leading to disciplinary procedure they said.

Mrs OBumble

Doom wrote: »

That's bollox...that would only happened you sit there and take it.

Ahh, no, it's fact.

There is no legal requirement to go through a particular series of warnings, because there are some offences that are so serious that they go straight to a final warning or even a termination.





Also:

In future, please try to make posts that are a little more helpful than "that's bollox". Either link to a reputable source which backs up your point, or post more clearly if you're trying to express an opinion that what is happening is unfair irrespective of whether it's legal or not (eg "that sucks"). Just saying "that's bollox" implies you think it's factually, but are not explaining why.

Doom

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, no, it's fact.

There is no legal requirement to go through a particular series of warnings, because there are some offences that are so serious that they go straight to a final warning or even a termination.





Also:

In future, please try to make posts that are a little more helpful than "that's bollox". Either link to a reputable source which backs up your point, or post more clearly if you're trying to express an opinion that what is happening is unfair irrespective of whether it's legal or not (eg "that sucks"). Just saying "that's bollox" implies you think it's factually, but are not explaining why.

It is bollox, because a company will be putting itself in a very weak position for unfair dismissal if it did not follow a reasonable procedure and by common use, (verbal and written warning before been sacked) it is in fact the norm, i've witnessed persons having disciplinary action wiped by the labour court because managers jumped the gun instead of following reasonable procedures

Any how I'm happy the op is not going to be disciplined for this, imo I have already made some helpful remarks and will continue to do so.

And mod...I've already mentioned about more serious action if warranted by certain Actions....You Should Read My Previous posts

Bepolite

Doom wrote: »

Any how I'm happy the op is not going to be disciplined for this, imo I have already made some helpful remarks and will continue to do so.

OP is still facing disciplinary action.

OP stay calm in any meeting. Do not go off on one in an attempt 'not to take it', that will be completely counter productive. You have the appeals process and the labour court if you need them.

LegacyUser

Doom wrote: »

Any how I'm happy the op is not going to be disciplined for this, imo I have already made some helpful remarks and will continue to do so.

To clear up confusion, but I am the OP and hadn't actually posted an update since my disciplinary hearing (I still don't know if there will be action).

It looks like "didntgotoplan" hijacked the thread about a meeting THEY had and confused people.

LegacyUser

didntgotoplan wrote: »

My meeting was changed to today and I kept calm, brought a witness who knew all about what they were telling me I did wrong and gave my side with records of the conversations that happened. I've another meeting at the end of the week to provide the outcome but it is not leading to disciplinary procedure they said.

Can I be so bold as to ask if you'd mind starting your own thread rather than hijacking mine?
Cases like this tend to be quite complicated and you are confusing people by wading in with your situation.

To update everyone about my situation:
The meeting went well and I did not get the impression that they were trying to catch me out or anything which I had been nervous would happen. My witness was very happy with how it went and said they don't think I will have any major action taken against me.

I only received the meeting notes today and have been asked to sign off on them but they are not completely accurate so will be pointing out the flaws. There is one particular bit that looks a lot more "loaded" to how I or my witness recall it and if I don't correct it, it could make a big difference.
Seems like this whole thing is going to drag on for another weekend.

Bepolite

Thanks for updating us OP. Best of luck, looks like they are just being 'harsh but fair' which is their prerogative.

LegacyUser

Hi all,
I've received the hearing outcome- no action is being taken against me.
Am very happy! Thanks to everyone for your support, I was so stressed and posting here and reading your replies really helped.
Thanks again

LegacyUser

vasewater wrote: »

Hi all,
I've received the hearing outcome- no action is being taken against me.
Am very happy! Thanks to everyone for your support, I was so stressed and posting here and reading your replies really helped.
Thanks again

OP back again.
So since this whole saga, I have been trying very hard to avoid making any more mistakes and my manager is now giving me feedback that I am "asking too many questions". I told him that I am just trying to not make mistakes again.
Our director (his boss) met with me last week in a meeting about something else, the meeting finished early and she asked me how I was getting on since the disciplinary hearing.
I said that I felt a bit deserted by my manager- he didn't provide me with safe tools or enough documentation. Our director told me that "the company needs intelligent people who make good decisions and have an eye for detail, you should be able to make your own good judgements without needing to be told what to do", she also mentioned it is not cost-productive to put safeguards on every tool.
She clearly seemed to disagree with the hearing outcome.
I am considering going to HR as I am starting to feel like they might start trying to "manage me out".The past few weeks have been extremely stressful for me and I am second guessing everything I do now.

Bepolite

vasewater wrote: »

OP back again.
So since this whole saga, I have been trying very hard to avoid making any more mistakes and my manager is now giving me feedback that I am "asking too many questions". I told him that I am just trying to not make mistakes again.
Our director (his boss) met with me last week in a meeting about something else, the meeting finished early and she asked me how I was getting on since the disciplinary hearing.
I said that I felt a bit deserted by my manager- he didn't provide me with safe tools or enough documentation. Our director told me that "the company needs intelligent people who make good decisions and have an eye for detail, you should be able to make your own good judgements without needing to be told what to do", she also mentioned it is not cost-productive to put safeguards on every tool.
She clearly seemed to disagree with the hearing outcome.
I am considering going to HR as I am starting to feel like they might start trying to "manage me out".The past few weeks have been extremely stressful for me and I am second guessing everything I do now.

Probably just best to move on, if at all possible, OP.

micosoft

vasewater wrote: »

OP back again.

I said that I felt a bit deserted by my manager- he didn't provide me with safe tools or enough documentation. Our director told me that "the company needs intelligent people who make good decisions and have an eye for detail, you should be able to make your own good judgements without needing to be told what to do", she also mentioned it is not cost-productive to put safeguards on every tool.
She clearly seemed to disagree with the hearing outcome.
I am considering going to HR as I am starting to feel like they might start trying to "manage me out".The past few weeks have been extremely stressful for me and I am second guessing everything I do now.

So you are now being "passive aggressive" by demanding what your manager and director regard as extreme measures. TBF the director's explanation seems fair and she is defining the requirements for the role. If you can't show good judgement or detail orientated then perhaps the role may not be for you. I suspect that you are going to give them cause to want to manage you out if you continue with your current approach. Perhaps have an honest conversation with the manager you are friendly with and reflect on whether this is the job for you.