Liverpool v Aston Villa 17.30 hrs Sky Sports 1

K-9

COYVB wrote: »

Just like the girl in the short skirt puts the rapist in a bad position

A touch over dramatic? Hope you've had a few beers tonight.

BMJD

andyman wrote: »

I said earlier on that more physical contact occurs in all areas of the pitch and players are still able to stay upright. Why is this not the case in the penalty area?

Contact + fall does equal penalty. However a slight brush (which happen in all areas of the pitch in every game every weekend and aren't enough to bring players down bar the penalty area) and a dive does not equal a penalty.

It's wrong, it's simulation, it's deceiving the referee. End of.

the difference with the penalty box incidents are that when the keeper is involved it is almost always contact between his hands/body and the attacking player's feet

a keeper on the ground making contact with a player running towards him is infinitely more likely to take him down that a simple shoulder to shoulder challenge in the middle of the park, for example

wonderfullife

Absolutely was NOT a dive in my opinion but equally NOT a penalty.

Whilst it's usually either/or - it doesn't have to be.

I've seen many a clip of Georgie Best dancing down the wing in his prime with defenders absolutely hatcheting him waist high. Massive contact but he kept running. His balance was incredible.

But equally with him running at such pace with the ball, the odd time a slight touch would be enough and he'd lose balance and fall over.

If someone makes contact with you and you fall over, it doesn't have to mean DIVE if the ref doesn't give it. It's the ref saying "i don't think that contact warranted a foul".

In this case, i don't think Guzan made enough contact to warrant a penno but Suarez was going at pace and fell over after the contact.

Should be simple to wave it away and play on.

Reading the thread , sort of amazed the amount of people saying "The Gerard experiment isn't working".

Stevie G, on the whole, has been pure muck for the bones of 2 years. It's nothing to do with the position he played. He's lost a yard of pace, he's getting old, he's been out-run, out-fought, out-muscled by younger, better players.

Great player in his day but his day is long gone and he's going down the Carragher route of slow decline turning into a catastrophe.

The shelf-life of the tough tackling, all-action, swashbuckling central midfielder is a lot lower than that of other positions. Keane retired at 34 when a few years past his best, Vieira retired a month after his 35th birthday a few years past his best, Lampard is 35 and a few years past his best.

They all seemed to peak in their mid-20s as opposed to late-20s.

The problem for Liverpool is i don't think BR has the "stones" that Arsene Wenger, SAF and Rafa have. All 3 recognised when their star midfielders were past it (Vieria, Keane, Lampard respectively) and got rid or reduced them to bit-part players.

The problem here is BR genuinely sees Stevie G as a figure to build the side around. For all his strengths and obvious progress, that to me is a manager being blinded by a star name and ignoring the evidence on the pitch.

Lucas and Henderson are the engine of that midfield and for all the brilliance of Suarez, Liverpool will continue to be undone by carrying Gerrard like they did today. He was an absolute shambles and that had nothing to do with positional responsibilities and everything to do with being shown up by younger, faster, fitter opponents.

wonderfullife

as for Coutinho.....All he really has going for him is being from Brazil and having a dodgy haircut.

What does he do? He certainly doesn't score much. He does't give many assists. He doesn't have blinding pace to stretch defences. He contributes very little defensively. His work-rate is suspect. His touches seem far too ponderous and he dwells on the ball. Or worse he goes for instant Hollywood passes.

The most over-rated, over-hyped average player to ever pull on the shirt and honestly i'd rate Shelvey a lot higher on comparitive performances this season for Swansea.

Out of his depth and pulling the wool over peoples eyes by having a Brazilian passport and a swanky sounding Samba name. If his name was Philip Smith from Wirral he'd be lobbed out on loan in a heartbeat. As it is, he's a starter. Go figure.

K-9

wonderfullife wrote: »

as for Coutinho.....All he really has going for him is being from Brazil and having a dodgy haircut.

What does he do? He certainly doesn't score much. He does't give many assists. He doesn't have blinding pace to stretch defences. He contributes very little defensively. His work-rate is suspect. His touches seem far too ponderous and he dwells on the ball. Or worse he goes for instant Hollywood passes.

The most over-rated, over-hyped average player to ever pull on the shirt and honestly i'd rate Shelvey a lot higher on comparitive performances this season for Swansea.

Out of his depth and pulling the wool over peoples eyes by having a Brazilian passport and a swanky sounding Samba name. If his name was Philip Smith from Wirral he'd be lobbed out on loan in a heartbeat. As it is, he's a starter. Go figure.

Wow, just wow. A post so dismissive of an obviously talented payer can only be treated dismissively.

Morzadec

I've watched the decision quite a few times now, and I've tried to give Suarez the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like it's a dive for me.

I thought at first that it was one of those grey-area 'dive? yes, penalty? yes' ones where he's gone down easy but it's still an infringement, but after looking at it closely I would have to conclude that it probably shouldn't be a penalty.

LiamoSail

wonderfullife wrote: »

as for Coutinho.....All he really has going for him is being from Brazil and having a dodgy haircut.

What does he do? He certainly doesn't score much. He does't give many assists. He doesn't have blinding pace to stretch defences. He contributes very little defensively. His work-rate is suspect. His touches seem far too ponderous and he dwells on the ball. Or worse he goes for instant Hollywood passes.

The most over-rated, over-hyped average player to ever pull on the shirt and honestly i'd rate Shelvey a lot higher on comparitive performances this season for Swansea.

Out of his depth and pulling the wool over peoples eyes by having a Brazilian passport and a swanky sounding Samba name. If his name was Philip Smith from Wirral he'd be lobbed out on loan in a heartbeat. As it is, he's a starter. Go figure.

I'd struggle to think of anyone else in the league of his age with better technique or control.

He's not a speed merchant, that won't change,but his decision making will improve with experience, as will his shooting and movement. He's an intelligent player, can pick a pass and is ahead of most in his ability on the ball. There's plenty there to be encouraged by, and since signing, has contributed more then most have to the club at his age

monkey9

wonderfullife wrote: »

Absolutely was NOT a dive in my opinion but equally NOT a penalty.

Whilst it's usually either/or - it doesn't have to be.

I've seen many a clip of Georgie Best dancing down the wing in his prime with defenders absolutely hatcheting him waist high. Massive contact but he kept running. His balance was incredible.

But equally with him running at such pace with the ball, the odd time a slight touch would be enough and he'd lose balance and fall over.

If someone makes contact with you and you fall over, it doesn't have to mean DIVE if the ref doesn't give it. It's the ref saying "i don't think that contact warranted a foul".

In this case, i don't think Guzan made enough contact to warrant a penno but Suarez was going at pace and fell over after the contact.

Should be simple to wave it away and play on.

Reading the thread , sort of amazed the amount of people saying "The Gerard experiment isn't working".

Stevie G, on the whole, has been pure muck for the bones of 2 years. It's nothing to do with the position he played. He's lost a yard of pace, he's getting old, he's been out-run, out-fought, out-muscled by younger, better players.

Great player in his day but his day is long gone and he's going down the Carragher route of slow decline turning into a catastrophe.

The shelf-life of the tough tackling, all-action, swashbuckling central midfielder is a lot lower than that of other positions. Keane retired at 34 when a few years past his best, Vieira retired a month after his 35th birthday a few years past his best, Lampard is 35 and a few years past his best.

They all seemed to peak in their mid-20s as opposed to late-20s.

The problem for Liverpool is i don't think BR has the "stones" that Arsene Wenger, SAF and Rafa have. All 3 recognised when their star midfielders were past it (Vieria, Keane, Lampard respectively) and got rid or reduced them to bit-part players.

The problem here is BR genuinely sees Stevie G as a figure to build the side around. For all his strengths and obvious progress, that to me is a manager being blinded by a star name and ignoring the evidence on the pitch.

Lucas and Henderson are the engine of that midfield and for all the brilliance of Suarez, Liverpool will continue to be undone by carrying Gerrard like they did today. He was an absolute shambles and that had nothing to do with positional responsibilities and everything to

do with being shown up by younger, faster, fitter opponents.

He dived. Proven as fact now what with replays etc that and watching it live.

toxicity234

just watch Match of the day.
Gerard make a mistake for the first goal and he wasn't great for the second goal.
The penalty again. Its a penalty. the goalie get him at knee high. Its a penalty. Again its not a stonewall but the Ref get it correct. Well done to him.
So no Dive. Anyone who said that a dive need to have a good look at them self in the mirror.
The Goalie didn't need to slide out.

LiamoSail

monkey9 wrote: »

He dived. Proven as fact now what with replays etc that and watching it live.

I've always said of Suarez that he doesn't dive, but always exaggerates contact to win the free/penalty based on some level of contact. Today was a dive though, absolutely. There was no justification based on the contact that occurred.

The issue with it being Suarez is the coverage it will attract. The refs don't want the sort of coverage he attracts attached to their debatable or controversial decisions. They meet weekly to discuss the controversies, talking points of the week, and you can be guaranteed Suarez will be number #1 on the agenda. While beneficial today, I think it may cost us with future decisions. It's better for a refs reputation not to give Suarez something he should have got,then it is to give him something he shouldn't

Call Me Jimmy

Wasn't a peno!

Call Me Jimmy

toxicity234 wrote: »

just watch Match of the day.
Gerard make a mistake for the first goal and he wasn't great for the second goal.
The penalty again. Its a penalty. the goalie get him at knee high. Its a penalty. Again its not a stonewall but the Ref get it correct. Well done to him.
So no Dive. Anyone who said that a dive need to have a good look at them self in the mirror.
The Goalie didn't need to slide out.

The sentiment and especially the phrasing gave me a good laugh!

Ok I'm looking at the mirror now, what do I do next? :pac:

osarusan

BMJD wrote: »

Was there contact? Yes
Could he have stayed on his feet? Probably
Is he the only one who does this? No


The problem with the faux-outrage towards Suarez is that sooner or later it will be on your own doorstep, just ask José

Young, Rooney, Cazorla, Ramires, Oscar,.................................

you see, I think that if Liverpool fans (in this instance, but it applies to fans of all teams) were willing to admit the first part of your qouted post is wrong, and that the second line is correct, there would be no faux-outrage.

But instead, we have fans on here going on about how it was a stonewall penalty and anybody who thinks differently is blind and full of hate. That just helps the vicious cycle of complete hypocrisy depending on whose team benefitted/suffered from a poor decision to continue.

In my opinion, it was a dive. I've looked at all the gifs on here, and whether there is any contact at all is not clear to me. What is clear to me is that Suarez makes the decision to throw himself to the ground.

I don't subscribe to the notion that contact, however slight, means it cannot be considered a dive. And all the posters who have argued that on this thread will probably be arguing the exact opposite some time in the near future when a decision goes the other way.

I don't know, maybe some people like that stuff and consider it banter and being a fan. I don't.

Jelle1880

Can't believe people are still debating there was contact.

There wasn't, Suarez dived, deal with.

Charlie19

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Can't believe people are still debating there was contact.

There wasn't, Suarez dived, deal with.

There was contact and Suarez made the most of it. I'd be sick if the decision was given against Liverpool but I can definitely see why it was given.

enfant terrible

LiamoSail wrote: »

I'd struggle to think of anyone else in the league of his age with better technique or control.

At just Arsenal Wilshere, Ramsey, Gnabry?

Optimalprimerib

Watching the clip again, Guzman was very clever, went to ground but he kept himself very small to let Suarez make the decision to dive.

In this case it did not work, but I think this is a new tactic by keepers. Force the player to make a dive as the chance of a penalty being given is less than not plus it could get the attacking player booked.

If Suarez stayed on his feet and retain the ball (which he easily could have done) he would have had an open goal.

Goalkeepers Imo have copped onto what strikers will do if you rush them and the law of percentages will remain on their side, that a penalty will be less and less likely be given.

It is now in the form of escalation up to the strikers to realise this is their game and stay on their feet.

NukaCola

COYVB wrote: »

Just like the girl in the short skirt puts the rapist in a bad position

Are you trying to parallel rape with diving?......whats going on in your head?

Awful awful post.

theteal

I've not watched a hundred zoomed in replays to see this supposed contact. From what I've seen there may be a slight brushing of Suarez's foot with the creased material of Guzan's rolled up sleeve as he pulled his arm away. That's nowhere near enough to stop his other foot landing on the ground in a natural running motion. It's a dive all day and I'm surprised the ref fell for it.

Are there many questions being asked of Mig for the second Villa goal? If I remember correctly that might be a few costly mistakes he's totting up now

Will I Amnt

NukaCola wrote: »

Are you trying to parallel rape with diving?......whats going on in your head?

Awful awful post.

No he's not, you're looking for something to be outraged by.
Awful, awful post.

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

No he's not, you're looking for something to be outraged by.
Awful, awful post.

Honestly what is he trying to say then??

seriously I've no clue...you seem to understand the anology being made.

wonderfullife

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honestly what is he trying to say then??

seriously I've no clue...you seem to understand the anology being made.

Pretty sure the guy is attempting to say:

Girls with short skirts give rapists a "tough decision" in the same way Goalkeepers rushing out give refs a "tough decision".

Except, of course, both strands of his logic are total utter bullsh1t.

You don't have to wear a short skirt, or even be female, to be targeted by rapists and sexual predators. Victims of sexual abuse were not "asking for it" by dressing in a provocative way. It's the same sort of lazy, ancient logic that found an excuse for paedophiles because of school uniforms/skirts.

This sort of saying and expression is an anachronism to a time long gone. It's 2014 and it's absolutely NOT OK to trivialise rape and sexual assault like he did by implying wearing a short skirt means you're risking "asking" to be raped. Awful post doesn't cover it and if i heard it said in person in a pub i'd be walking out.

Will I Amnt

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honestly what is he trying to say then??

seriously I've no clue...you seem to understand the anology being made.

It's a f*cking analogy, you say so yourself. He's not trying to equate diving and rape.

Agueroooo

wonderfullife wrote: »

Pretty sure the guy is attempting to say:

Girls with short skirts give rapists a "tough decision" in the same way Goalkeepers rushing out give refs a "tough decision".

Except, of course, both strands of his logic are total utter bullsh1t.

You don't have to wear a short skirt, or even be female, to be targeted by rapists and sexual predators. Victims of sexual abuse were not "asking for it" by dressing in a provocative way. It's the same sort of lazy, ancient logic that found an excuse for paedophiles because of school uniforms/skirts.

This sort of saying and expression is an anachronism to a time long gone. It's 2014 and it's absolutely NOT OK to trivialise rape and sexual assault like he did by implying wearing a short skirt means you're risking "asking" to be raped. Awful post doesn't cover it and if i heard it said in person in a pub i'd be walking out.

Thanks for that pal. Similar to my way of unravelling the statement and also I was failing to see why it was made in the first place.

but what is really bizarre is why Will I Amnt weighed in to defend against a post in reply??

thats why I asked did he know it as being something different.

Bizarre.

Oranage2

Will I Amnt wrote: »

It's a f*cking analogy, you say so yourself. He's not trying to equate diving and rape.

Well it was neither clever nor funny…

Stupid analogy!

Agueroooo

Oranage2 wrote: »

Well it was neither clever nor funny…

Stupid analogy!

There is no faux outrage either from me. People can say what they want and face the consequences as far as im concerned.

but to defend such a stupid post to just get one up on another poster is a bit of a double wammy to me.

Will I Amnt

Agueroooo wrote: »

but what is really bizarre is why Will I Aint weighed in to defend against a post in reply??

I'll tell you why, because there's the moral outrage brigade in this forum who on one hand will pounce on something such as this instance and on the other hand keep their mouth shut or even thank posts saying "Torres raped Vidic" or something to that effect.

Will I Amnt

Agueroooo wrote: »

There is no faux outrage either from me. People can say what they want and face the consequences as far as im concerned.

but to defend such a stupid post to just get one up on another poster is a bit of a double wammy to me.

What the f**k are you on about?
Getting one up on another poster?
I don't think I've ever interacted with NukaCola in all my time here, I've no issue with him at all so stop talking bollox.

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Agueroooo wrote: »

but what is really bizarre is why Will I Aint weighed in to defend against a post in reply??/quote]
I'll tell you why, because there's the moral outrage brigade in this forum who on one hand will pounce on something such as this instance and on the other hand keep their mouth shut or even thank posts saying "Torres raped Vidic" or something to that effect.

fine but that wasn't made clear im your reply to Nuka, and I have no clue or care if Nuka goes around here using such anology when players get ripped a new one - I couldn't care less tbh.

I just couldn't see the anolgy being made and then I read your post which seemed to indicate you do, hence the question from me.

but it seems you read and understood the anology like the rest of us, and I cant see why you defended it (to a small degree albeit) to make another point about terms being used during a game.

shįt like that should be just left for what it is and leave the mods deal with it.

niallo27

We are taking about touching kids and raping people now. ****en hell. Pathetic is the only word I have for some of the people here. It's a game of football. A bit of perspective is needed.

Will I Amnt

There's nothing in it for mods to deal with IMO. There was another instance in this thread where somebody made an analogy with the incident and a car crash. Should that be deleted for fear of offending one of the thousands of people that are affected by road deaths?

The lad clearly wasn't equating the 2 incidents when he mentioned rape. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

Panrich

I thought that losing Agbonlahor was the turning point. Villa did not have the same threat afterwards and the Liverpool defenders were able to deal with the static Holt. They seemed to be very vulnerable to a bit of pace.

Kerrigooney

Game over-check

Will I Amnt shows up to argue with Liverpool fans-check

Fucking hell you could set your watch to it :rolleyes:

Will I Amnt

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Game over-check

Will I Amnt shows up to argue with Liverpool fans-check

Fucking hell you could set your watch to it :rolleyes:

I don't give a sh*t who they support tbh. If I see something I disagree with I'll comment on it so wind your neck in and at least tell me why I'm wrong instead of bitching and moaning about who is posting where. Pathetic.

Cyrus

Did anyone see lamberts reaction when asked if he would have expected a penalty if it was the other way around, it was a long pause before he could try formulate an answer that wasn't yes

In this day and age that was peno simples

Kerrigooney

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I don't give a sh*t who they support tbh. If I see something I disagree with I'll comment on it so wind your neck in and at least tell me why I'm wrong instead of bitching and moaning about who is posting where. Pathetic.

Now you're just telling lies.

niallo27

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I don't give a sh*t who they support tbh. If I see something I disagree with I'll comment on it so wind your neck in and at least tell me why I'm wrong instead of bitching and moaning about who is posting where. Pathetic.

Why are you getting so upset. You said in the other thread Suarez doesn't bother you anymore.

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

Why are you getting so upset. You said in the other thread Suarez doesn't bother you anymore.

Well Niall, I'm not getting upset about Suarez at all, if you had been paying enough attention you would see I was "getting upset" at someone having a go at another poster for using an analogy and then claiming he was equating the 2 situations when he clearly wasn't.

Will I Amnt

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Now you're just telling lies.

Now you're just making assumptions.

Will I Amnt

Ok, I'm off now. Just to clear up for anybody who hasn't the capacity to understand the point I was making...
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a tasteless comment, I'm not arguing about Suarez, I'm not arguing because it was a Liverpool fan.

The original comment compared the REACTION to 2 incidents, not the incidents themselves so to say he was comparing diving and rape is plain wrong. Could he have used a better, less offensive analogy? Yes.

niallo27

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well Niall, I'm not getting upset about Suarez at all, if you had been paying enough attention you would see I was "getting upset" at someone having a go at another poster for using an analogy and then claiming he was equating the 2 situations when he clearly wasn't.

Why mention rape or touching kids when talking about football though.

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

Why mention rape or touching kids when talking about football though.

Well that's what analogies are. Comparing something in 2 different situations, why mention anything else that's not football? I didn't see any mention of touching kids

niallo27

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well that's what analogies are. Comparing something in 2 different situations, why mention anything else that's not football? I didn't see any mention of touching kids

Paedophile's were mentioned on the previous page. It's all gone overboard at this stage. No one gives a **** about the match. It's all about that evil Suarez.

monkey9

And people wonder why Liverpool fans laugh at the Suarez mock outrage.

The fact an incident that happens all the time is still being debated is funny enough. But a rape of a woman has been compared to Luis Suarez falling to the ground on the pitch.

Our year etc

monkey9

monkey9 wrote: »

And people wonder why Liverpool fans laugh at the Suarez mock outrage.

The fact an incident that happens all the time is still being debated is funny enough. But a rape of a woman has been compared to Luis Suarez falling to the ground on the pitch.

Our year etc

Yeah its a bit insane the obsession with anything Suarez does. If he was a nothing player like others nobody would bat an eyelid. ****e players generally aren't hated.

Long may the hate continue as it means he's doing the business on the pitch.

hefferboi

No one really covering themselves in glory in this thread. Funny enough though.

weldoninhio

He is a cheat, 100%. Yes other players go down easily, but not as often as Suarez. He will try and cheat in every game he plays. Its just the way he is. He is a phenomenal player, but the cheat instinct is in him, thats why i don't think he'll ever even get top 3 in the Ballon D'or, never mind win it.

If he didn't cheat as much and kept up this seasons form i think he might win it, and would at least get top 3.

niallo27

weldoninhio wrote: »

He is a cheat, 100%. Yes other players go down easily, but not as often as Suarez. He will try and cheat in every game he plays. Its just the way he is. He is a phenomenal player, but the cheat instinct is in him, thats why i don't think he'll ever even get top 3 in the Ballon D'or, never mind win it.

If he didn't cheat as much and kept up this seasons form i think he might win it, and would at least get top 3.

You do know who won it this year don't you.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

He is a cheat, 100%. Yes other players go down easily, but not as often as Suarez. He will try and cheat in every game he plays. Its just the way he is. He is a phenomenal player, but the cheat instinct is in him, thats why i don't think he'll ever even get top 3 in the Ballon D'or, never mind win it.

If he didn't cheat as much and kept up this seasons form i think he might win it, and would at least get top 3.

Sensationlist post. I can think of at least 3 that go down incredibly easy and have been punished for it.

Check out the players carded for cheating this season and get back to me.

monkey9

weldoninhio wrote: »

He is a cheat, 100%. Yes other players go down easily, but not as often as Suarez. He will try and cheat in every game he plays. Its just the way he is. He is a phenomenal player, but the cheat instinct is in him, thats why i don't think he'll ever even get top 3 in the Ballon D'or, never mind win it.

If he didn't cheat as much and kept up this seasons form i think he might win it, and would at least get top 3.

Unless you are going to delve into every match thread when a player tries to claim a throw or corner or goal kick that quite clearly isn't is, shut the **** up to be honest.

'There's been a rape up there' Who knew Boards had so many David Brents.