Why is there so much Greed in Ireland?

Vendettaxx

Really refreshing thread.

Question; do you ever get bored?

Hootanany

Geuze wrote: »

I'm no fan of Enda Kenny.

But even I must accept that the first thing this Govt did was cut their own pay. His fell 14k to 200k.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/enda-kenny-is-still-third-bestpaid-leader-in-the-eu-28953402.html

At that stage he was third highest in EU.

There have been at least 3 pay cuts.

Taoiseach is now on 185k, after HRA.

80k max and it's still to much but I will let it slide

SpaceTime

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Certainly none of these naive individuals on After Hours. How do you know so much about the dealings of a lot of other people with their TD's?

I have my sources!

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I find it strange that this thread has been mostly about greed in politics. A TD, even a Minister could serve 30 years in the Dail and be on a pension for another 20 years and that income would amount to less than one year salary for a private sector executive. Who is the greediest?

People defend the executives saying they bring value to shareholders. Well if I was a shareholder I would want them to be on a maximum salary of €1 million and give the other millions to me and my fellow shareholders. Or reinvest it in the company. And I would not want them to reduce the workers wages and/or make them redundant while lining their own pockets with vast fortunes.

There is real greed going on but the ones getting away with it are getting off scot free in the criticism stakes.

So, why are shareholders not taking those sorts of actions? Is it because they are afraid that if the senior people go, the company will suffer?

Not saying I disagree, not at all, maybe the answer is to have a tax structure that makes payment above €1m not worth having because of the level of tax it attracts.

The one big difference is that a private company has to be profitable in order to pay those sorts of sums, the public sector is not answerable to anyone in the same way, and they have for sure paid themselves some serious money on occasions with very little real justification.

KyussBishop

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, why are shareholders not taking those sorts of actions? Is it because they are afraid that if the senior people go, the company will suffer?

Shareholders are generally 'absentee shareholders', who don't care about the runnings of the company so long as they are making a (paper) profit - so the whole 'responsibility to shareholders' idea is really a myth; there is very little executive accountability when shareholders individual power is typically heavily diluted due to numbers, or when they really know little-to-nothing about the internal workings of the company, due to the CEO's/executives keeping the company opaque, by carefully managing what information they disclose (pretty easy to dupe shareholders by giving the appearance of transparency, while in reality being opaque).

It's a big part of business fraud: Use accounting control fraud (or legal actions that in a better regulated country, would be classes as fraud), to make high 'paper' profits in the short term, and/or engage in unsustainable (yet hidden) business practices which greatly increase short-term profits - both of which justify massive bonuses/salaries to CEO's and the executives (real profits, cash in hand, not paper profits that evaporate later), until the company's fraud is discovered/prosecuted (with CEO's/executives insulated, due to delegating responsibility lower down, and professing lack of knowledge), or the company otherwise implodes due to unsustainable business practices (that were hidden from shareholders, until it was too late - decimating their 'paper' profits).

It's pretty easy for CEO's/executives to loot companies like this, to use them as a vehicle for personal enrichment, and then just walk away from the wreckage, personally intact (with a nice lump-sum rewarding their 'success', if they organize severance before it blows); shareholder 'accountability' is easily corrupted/broken, and in general is non-existent/mythical.

lufties

Geuze wrote: »

I'm no fan of Enda Kenny.

But even I must accept that the first thing this Govt did was cut their own pay. His fell 14k to 200k.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/enda-kenny-is-still-third-bestpaid-leader-in-the-eu-28953402.html

At that stage he was third highest in EU.

There have been at least 3 pay cuts.

Taoiseach is now on 185k, after HRA.

It's still too much, especially for a guy that won't even join a debate when asked. Kenny is but a puppet, coming on tv like a newsreader, reading out what all his many advisors prepared for him. Bit of a joke IMO.

bacon?

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is why I fecked off out of Ireland and went to New Zealand. ..

And why I'm living in Thailand, well one of the reasons

Frank Lee Midere

lufties wrote: »

Yes thats true femme, but honestly we seem to be world famous at it at this stage. We should change our national anthem to that Abba song, can't think of the name of it :rolleyes:

Absolutely nobody in the rest of the world would care about the CRC. Most countries are far more corrupt, particularly outside Europe.

Frank Lee Midere

bacon? wrote: »

And why I'm living in Thailand, well one of the reasons

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25759007

lufties

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Absolutely nobody in the rest of the world would care about the CRC. Most countries are far more corrupt, particularly outside Europe.

Why are you comparing to the rest of the world? The question is why is there so much greed in Ireland not the rest of the world.

Vendettaxx

bacon? wrote: »

And why I'm living in Thailand, well one of the reasons

I'm not sure if this is an attempt at humour?

Vendettaxx

Another boring, whinging thread from OP from which I've learned absolutely nothing.

Whinging about celebrity media, whinging about corruption in Ireland. He's truly got the moral high ground. One step ahead of all of us. Have mercy on us poor peasants.

Please, you modern day Plato, go whinge about the current success of One Direction in your next thread.

CrabRevolution

lufties wrote: »

Why are you comparing to the rest of the world? The question is why is there so much greed in Ireland not the rest of the world.

You cant say there's "so much" greed in Ireland without having some scale or thing to compare it to. We have "so much greed" compared to who? Who are we more greedy than? What amount of greed is "much", what's a little greed?

I could ask "why are there so many penguins in Ireland" and if anyone points out that there actually arent really any other than the zoo, I could just say "This is about Ireland's penguins, I dont care how many others have".

dxhound2005

lufties wrote: »

It's still too much, especially for a guy that won't even join a debate when asked. Kenny is but a puppet, coming on tv like a newsreader, reading out what all his many advisors prepared for him. Bit of a joke IMO.

What is it like over there in China? I hear that the leaders have banned questions about the hidden wealth of the Communist Party elite.

Wibbs

I'd say it's simply because even if someone(politician/banker/CEO/etc) gets caught with their hand in the till very few face any consequences. Indeed for politicians, especially local parochial ones, a financial stroke can be a career enhancer. There seems to be an admiration for those who pull such strokes in our culture.

dxhound2005

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd say it's simply because even if someone(politician/banker/CEO/etc) gets caught with their hand in the till very few face any consequences. Indeed for politicians, especially local parochial ones, a financial stroke can be a career enhancer. There seems to be an admiration for those who pull such strokes in our culture.

Just from the top of my head I can think of four from Anglo Irish, a couple from Irish Life, Ivor Callely and Michael Lowry who will be before the courts presently. For offences which may be connected to greed depending on how you look at them. I have never seen any admiration expressed on After Hours for a politician pulling a stroke, so you must have got that from another source?

Wibbs

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I have never seen any admiration expressed on After Hours for a politician pulling a stroke, so you must have got that from another source?

After hours is not Ireland. Not by a long shot. Pádraig Flynn, Michael "Stroke" Fahy, Bertie Aherne, DeValera, Ray Burke, Charles Haughey, Liam Lawlor, Michael Lowry, is a very short list of wildly popular politicians with let's just say questionable stuff going on? A list where few faced consequences and when they did the punishments were light.

dxhound2005

Wibbs wrote: »

After hours is not Ireland. Not by a long shot. Pádraig Flynn, Michael "Stroke" Fahy, Bertie Aherne, DeValera, Ray Burke, Charles Haughey, Liam Lawlor, Michael Lowry, is a very short list of wildly popular politicians with let's just say questionable stuff going on? A list where few faced consequences and when they did the punishments were light.

Again from memory Fahy, Burke and Lawlor served time. Haughey, Aherne and Lowry were the subject of tribunals. Are they all still wildly popular?

lufties

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You cant say there's "so much" greed in Ireland without having some scale or thing to compare it to. We have "so much greed" compared to who? Who are we more greedy than? What amount of greed is "much", what's a little greed?

I could ask "why are there so many penguins in Ireland" and if anyone points out that there actually arent really any other than the zoo, I could just say "This is about Ireland's penguins, I dont care how many others have".

The greed I'm talking about for the most part is what people such as corrupt political classes get up to, having no morals, and behaving in a self serving manner by screwing the ordinary joe soap for there own gain. Perhaps greed isn't the word for it but it's part of it. No need to compare with other countries when it comes to this carry on.

It seems in Ireland, with all that has gone on in the last few years, that certain people will bring the entire nation to it's knees, for their own gain.

dxhound2005

lufties wrote: »

The greed I'm talking about for the most part is what people such as corrupt political classes get up to, having no morals, and behaving in a self serving manner by screwing the ordinary joe soap for there own gain. Perhaps greed isn't the word for it but it's part of it. No need to compare with other countries when it comes to this carry on.

It seems in Ireland, with all that has gone on in the last few years, that certain people will bring the entire nation to it's knees, for their own gain.

I do feel the need to compare with other countries. What is it like over there in China, any of this sort of greed and corruption going on in politics or business?

The Pheasant2

Greed is a facet of human nature, no more prevalent here than anywhere else.

dxhound2005

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Greed is a facet of human nature, no more prevalent here than anywhere else.

Then the whole premise of this thread falls down. It should really be Why is there so much greed in the world.

lufties

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I do feel the need to compare with other countries. What is it like over there in China, any of this sort of greed and corruption going on in politics or business?

Not to sound racsist, but the chinese are behind the western world with regard a lot of things, Perhaps its evolution. Their industrial movement has only happened in the last 20 years. China has one of the world's worst human rights records on the planet, so I don't really think a comparison can be made.

Birroc

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Greed is a facet of human nature, no more prevalent here than anywhere else.

It is facilitated here more than many many other places.

Basically a group of men (pigs) sat around a boardroom table and agreed it would be a good idea to pay their chief exec a pension package of €700,000+ out of charitable donations instead of say giving that money to the children and adults with disability that they supposedly care for. All the men agreed to this decision - why? - because they expected their own golden handshake and basically they couldn't care less about their clients or donors.

That's groupthink greed and we have it in spades here.

Me?

There is so much greed in this country because we set-up our society to allow the few to make the rules that determine that they are in a position to have the maximum. Plus the simple fact in this country you get away with it.
Unabated greed at the top filters down to the entitlement thinking at all levels. I used to think it could be changed until I realised that apathy is the prevailing attitude in Ireland.

Ireland is a cesspit if you allow the sh!te to filter into your brain, it's a great country if you just concentrate on life's important stuff.

dxhound2005

Birroc wrote: »

It is facilitated here more than many many other places.

Basically a group of men (pigs) sat around a boardroom table and agreed it would be a good idea to pay their chief exec a pension package of €700,000+ out of charitable donations instead of say giving that money to the children and adults with disability that they supposedly care for. All the men agreed to this decision - why? - because they expected their own golden handshake and basically they couldn't care less about their clients or donors.

That's groupthink greed and we have it in spades here.

Much the same as a group of men/women sitting around a boardroom table and deciding to give themselves salaries of €7 million a year. Money which should be going to their shareholders or reinvested in the company. And at the same time they impose wage freezes or pay cuts on their employees.

dxhound2005

Me? wrote: »

There is so much greed in this country because we set-up our society to allow the few to make the rules that determine that they are in a position to have the maximum. Plus the simple fact in this country you get away with it.
Unabated greed at the top filters down to the entitlement thinking at all levels. I used to think it could be changed until I realised that apathy is the prevailing attitude in Ireland.

Ireland is a cesspit if you allow the sh!te to filter into your brain, it's a great country if you just concentrate on life's important stuff.

If "the few" you refer to are our politicians then they are doing a very poor job at being greedy. Their counterparts in private business can give themselves more in a year than any politician could earn in a lifetime.

hfallada

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I do feel the need to compare with other countries. What is it like over there in China, any of this sort of greed and corruption going on in politics or business?

China is one the most corrupt countries in the world and runs from the ministers of the country right down to the everyday life. Everything in China is based on corruption. Their high speed rail system was built by companies that brides officials for the contracts. If you get in trouble with the law a bribe solves it. You need to bribe someone to get anything done in China

The Chinese governments crack down on corruption is slowing economic growth so that shows you something. Very few people in China are wealthy from good, honest, hard work. Its mainly just corruption.

sunflower27

it is an interesting topic and I have long thought that in Ireland there is a culture of greed. Politicians, medical consultants are among the best paid in the world.

I think corruption is rife here as well. Everyone protects each other and there is a massive culture of that here.

Gryire

The problem with Ireland is there is an elite group at the top levels of the public/political sector and they all look after each other. Just look at people in the news over the last few weeks. Why was the boss of Irish Water selected for the position after his record as Dublin County Manager. Was it because of his qualifications/experience in heading up a large utility company or was it because of his contacs with a FG minister.

The package that Mr Keily got is the same as that given to other senior HSE personnel that have taken redundancy in recent times.

What happened to the senior department of finance person who was involved in the disaster of the bank guarantee. He go a pay rise and was sent to europe.

What happened to the consultants who were advising the government about Anglo and co and could not see the con job that was going on, they are still getting big contracts from state and semi state and being rewared with positions at the high levels of these companies. The circle goes on.

sunflower27

Gryire wrote: »

The problem with Ireland is there is an elite group at the top levels of the public/political sector and they all look after each other. Just look at people in the news over the last few weeks. Why was the boss of Irish Water selected for the position after his record as Dublin County Manager. Was it because of his qualifications/experience in heading up a large utility company or was it because of his contacs with a FG minister.

The package that Mr Keily got is the same as that given to other senior HSE personnel that have taken redundancy in recent times.

What happened to the senior department of finance person who was involved in the disaster of the bank guarantee. He go a pay rise and was sent to europe.

What happened to the consultants who were advising the government about Anglo and co and could not see the con job that was going on, they are still getting big contracts from state and semi state and being rewared with positions at the high levels of these companies. The circle goes on.

Exactly. Those in position of power are very happy to protect themselves and will always do so. It is really quite unbelievable the levels of corruption that I have seen exposed since I have lived here.

Irish people are seriously exploited when it comes to their governments. A fair and decent politician is not the norm but the exception and that is tragic.

dxhound2005

Again just to point out where the real greed lies. I know that Walmart, McDonalds etc are big companies but do their bosses have to give themselves so much money? Especially compared to what they pay their workers. If you were a greedy person in America which would you go for, President of the USA which would get you something under half a million dollars or one of these jobs with 20 or 30 million?

http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/ceo-income/fortune-100

And it's the same here. Executive salaries are probably 600 times the average wage and are even 20 or 30 times more than the Taoiseach. If you are a really greedy person it's an easy choice which to go for.

kupus

hfallada wrote: »

Everything in China is based on corruption. Their high speed rail system was built by companies that brides officials for the contracts. If you get in trouble with the law a bribe solves it. You need to bribe someone to get anything done in China

As opposed to mobile phone licences?? the awarding of the new instalttion of water meters and how the company involved just happened to be bought a few months before hand.


If there is one thing that drives me up the wall in these type of threads its the people that always point fingers at other countries and say well at least its not as bad as xyz.
Ive been here and there for x years and its worse than Ireland. blah blah blah.
Ive lived in eastern europe, work dealings in africa, south america, and have more experience of corruption in one day than most Irish people will experience in a lifetime.

So when I say nothing has changed regards corruption in Ireland, I mean it, cos I dont see any change..

90's....awarding of mobile licences
2013....awarding of water meter installation licenses ..................
And everything in between.
Nothing has changed.


In fact from my outside perspective corruption is getting worse as it becoming consolidated an monopolised throughout irish society. Lawyers and the money go round that is free legal aid. leading to more scum on streets and them getting worse and worse as each suspended sentence goes by.
Dont talk to me of over crowded prisons. Every room can hold 5-6 people. Porrige and water for breakfast lunch and dinner is good enough.
Health cover ups ie the indian woman case.
Nama and the boys giving tip offs where to buy.


All these little things add up. eg. you go to the shop everyday and spend 2 euros for a coffee and a snack. You dont think its much as youve a fixed income every week. but at the end of the year thats nearly 800(you may have bought little addons)
Thats the price of a little car. or a holiday. or food

What im trying to say is that it starts small, where you dont notice it, but there comes a time when you will....

Fix whats in your back yard first and then point all the fingers you want

Not having a personal go at you hfallada but you and the other people throughout this thread.

dxhound2005

kupus wrote: »

As opposed to mobile phone licences?? the awarding of the new instalttion of water meters and how the company involved just happened to be bought a few months before hand.


If there is one thing that drives me up the wall in these type of threads its the people that always point fingers at other countries and say well at least its not as bad as xyz.
Ive been here and there for x years and its worse than Ireland. blah blah blah.
Ive lived in eastern europe, work dealings in africa, south america, and have more experience of corruption in one day than most Irish people will experience in a lifetime.

So when I say nothing has changed regards corruption in Ireland, I mean it, cos I dont see any change..

90's....awarding of mobile licences
2013....awarding of water meter installation licenses ..................
And everything in between.
Nothing has changed.


In fact from my outside perspective corruption is getting worse as it becoming consolidated an monopolised throughout irish society. Lawyers and the money go round that is free legal aid. leading to more scum on streets and them getting worse and worse as each suspended sentence goes by.
Dont talk to me of over crowded prisons. Every room can hold 5-6 people. Porrige and water for breakfast lunch and dinner is good enough.
Health cover ups ie the indian woman case.
Nama and the boys giving tip offs where to buy.


All these little things add up. eg. you go to the shop everyday and spend 2 euros for a coffee and a snack. You dont think its much as youve a fixed income every week. but at the end of the year thats nearly 800(you may have bought little addons)
Thats the price of a little car. or a holiday. or food

What im trying to say is that it starts small, where you dont notice it, but there comes a time when you will....

Fix whats in your back yard first and then point all the fingers you want

Not having a personal go at you hfallada but you and the other people throughout this thread.

Here is another outside perspective which depending on your point of view will either reinforce your opinion or may cause you to rethink. Ireland is 21st in a league of 177 countries when it comes to corruption with 1 being best and 177 being worst. It was posted earlier in the thread but you may not have seen it. You could check out the country where you are (or where you come from) and see how it compares to Ireland. Please let us know.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-ranks-21-out-of-177-countries-on-corruption-index-1.1615524

lufties

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here is another outside perspective which depending on your point of view will either reinforce your opinion or may cause you to rethink. Ireland is 21st in a league of 177 countries when it comes to corruption with 1 being best and 177 being worst. It was posted earlier in the thread but you may not have seen it. You could check out the country where you are (or where you come from) and see how it compares to Ireland. Please let us know.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-ranks-21-out-of-177-countries-on-corruption-index-1.1615524

For God's sake, will you stop trying to defend the indefensible. You can provide all the stats you want. Bottom line is we are as a collective a bunch of me feiners, who do not act for the good of the nation as a whole, only parochial and self gain. There you go, general sweeping statement.

dxhound2005

lufties wrote: »

For God's sake, will you stop trying to defend the indefensible. You can provide all the stats you want. Bottom line is we are as a collective a bunch of me feiners, who do not act for the good of the nation as a whole, only parochial and self gain. There you go, general sweeping statement.

I'm not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that most people on a thread about greed are ignoring where the real greed exists. I measure greed in money terms.

lufties

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that most people on a thread about greed are ignoring where the real greed exists. I measure greed in money terms.

From a work point of view,I was suffocated in Ireland, had to get out of there was so much arse licking, bullying and selfish carry on it was unbearable. This ultimately surmounts to greed being one up on your neighbour.

kupus

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that most people on a thread about greed are ignoring where the real greed exists. I measure greed in money terms.

And your just reinforcing my opinion of finger pointers. Head in sand. cant see forest etc.

Fighting Irish

keeponhurling wrote: »

A clue with politicians is that if they don't particularly stand for anything, and have no real conviction , they are probably in it purely for the money

Being a politician is a job, and just like any other jobs, most people only work jobs for the money

KyussBishop

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You cant say there's "so much" greed in Ireland without having some scale or thing to compare it to. We have "so much greed" compared to who? Who are we more greedy than? What amount of greed is "much", what's a little greed?

I could ask "why are there so many penguins in Ireland" and if anyone points out that there actually arent really any other than the zoo, I could just say "This is about Ireland's penguins, I dont care how many others have".

Eh? This is pedantic nonsense: We have instances of corruption and massive wasteful spending going to private 'consultants', and other opaque areas of high spending, and an entire financial industry that has been given a bailout that has destroyed the public finances for decades - without any real investigation into corruption and regulatory breaches, which financial fraud experts and whistleblowers who have seen it first hand, say is there.

Those are instances of greed, which have been gotten away with and are not subject to the rule of law, and which have significantly financially harmed every person in the country - that is a lot of greed. You don't need to compare to other countries, in order to know if that is a 'lot' of greed, that is pedantic whataboutery, which verges on trying to excuse that greed by implying "sure it happens everywhere".

It comes across as completely and deliberately missing the point by a long margin, in order to distract from the topic and to pour doubt on the importance of the issue.

KyussBishop

Birroc wrote: »

It is facilitated here more than many many other places.

Basically a group of men (pigs) sat around a boardroom table and agreed it would be a good idea to pay their chief exec a pension package of €700,000+ out of charitable donations instead of say giving that money to the children and adults with disability that they supposedly care for. All the men agreed to this decision - why? - because they expected their own golden handshake and basically they couldn't care less about their clients or donors.

That's groupthink greed and we have it in spades here.

Indeed, and you see it right in this thread here, with people making utterly stupid whataboutery-based or "it's just human nature" type arguments, for trying to excuse it.


It's like people are deliberately blind to the fact that (as kupus put it very well) it does not matter if corruption/greed happens more elsewhere, whether that be happening more in the public vs private sphere, on an everyday small-scale basis vs massive financial/political corruption, or Ireland vs China, or vs the rest of the world.

All of that divides people and makes them blind to the root problem - division of people and wasting time/energy/interest bickering over minor issues like that, should (in my view) be something that everyone should call out and tackle when they see it (and unfortunately, it's not always easy to see), due to how it intentionally distracts from the root problem, and serves to protect the status quo.

What matters is corruption/greed happens (and particularly, at a large scale, at an institutional level), and we know how to crack down on it (expose people who engage in it, expose and constantly remind people of political inaction towards it, prosecute people for it, have adequate regulations/laws for prosecuting all variations of it), so that's what needs to be made happen (and most importantly: we need political action through political/protest movements, to stir public awareness/support for it, to make that happen).

sock puppet

Gryire wrote: »

What happened to the consultants who were advising the government about Anglo and co .

They nearly collapsed before being taken over by BoA.

Femme_Fatale

lufties wrote: »

Bottom line is we are as a collective a bunch of me feiners, who do not act for the good of the nation as a whole, only parochial and self gain.

Grrr... still at this.

Maybe it's partially about your and others' own perspectives/prejudices/biases?

My personal take is to drill down to the grassroots, individual level.
I don't deny broad trends, but I don't always like taking them to be the overall picture either because it's unfair on those who don't fit into the box people seem so intent on creating.
Undoubtedly Ireland has the gombeen, the stroke-puller, the cute hoor - and they don't get held accountable the way they would in e.g. the UK, which is infuriating.
Yet in my day-to-day dealings, virtually nobody supports that kind of crap. You'd see a little bit of it here on Boards actually - "What a legend", "We'd all do the same if we were them" etc, but only from a tiny minority. I will concede it may be more prevalent overall in certain rural, isolated areas (like in Kerry, Mayo and Tipperary - we all know what I'm talking about ) but that is not Ireland in its entirety.

And I know it has been said, but it's particularly apt here - there is a major tendency to self flagellate among some Irish people. I used to be like that myself - automatically, unquestioningly thinking "we're this, that and the other". Probably because I felt it was an "enlightened" way to think. When I eventually critically thought it through, I realised it's not a good way to be, particularly seeing as I am also Irish. You can't blame Irish people reading this thread for getting annoyed at these wild allegations being made of them, especially from fellow Irish people (who aren't referring to themselves of course).
The reason people are comparing Ireland to other countries is not to deny or mitigate the issues here, but to encourage people who act as if Ireland is "famous" for corruption and greed to calm down and have a bit of perspective - and to bear in mind it is not just an Irish thing, so maybe rein in the self flagellation. It may manifest itself in a way that's very specific to Ireland, but greed and corruption are not especially Irish traits, and it's kinda nuts to imply they are.

Then you've got these twats (can't think of a more polite term) who go on and on about "Ireland" being only out for itself and the government being to blame for everything bla bla... while at the same time having this colossal sense of entitlement and feeling they shouldn't have to pay bills/charges (and I don't just mean stuff like the property tax, but taxes that go towards social benefits). That attitude is most certainly not for the greater good and is utter mé féinism. An extreme example would be those "Freeman" idiots.

Then you've got the whingers - those who complain about it, point fingers at others, create divisions... yet do not offer one iota of an alternative to change things. They blame other ordinary people as well as politicians, which is utter scapegoating, despite being ordinary people themselves who don't effect change either. I think it's hard to create an alternative to these problems because the issues start at the top, not the bottom, and people being divided and conquered and at each others' throats at the bottom are the perfect conditions for the rot at the top to thrive.

In the past it was maybe to do with the fact that we were a small rural society with very few opportunities to make money other that farming, combined with refusal by the founders of the state and political classes to believe and acknowledge that Ireland was getting poorer and that they had failed, plus a sort of sneaking admiration of anyone who was getting away with it and so.

qdawg86

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is why I fecked off out of Ireland and went to New Zealand. ..

There are plenty of money hungry elite in New Zealand as well !!!

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

The reason people are comparing Ireland to other countries is not to deny or mitigate the issues here, but to encourage people who act as if Ireland is "famous" for corruption and greed to calm down and have a bit of perspective - and to bear in mind it is not just an Irish thing, so maybe rein in the self flagellation. It may manifest itself in a way that's very specific to Ireland, but greed and corruption are not especially Irish traits, and it's kinda nuts to imply they are.

Nobody said they are - people are angry because the greed/corruption is happening, in such a bald-faced/unconcealed way that is insulting to the publics intelligence and displays a particularly derisive attitude toward the public (and, not least of all, because it has massively harmed the public, with effects that will persist for decades), and nothing is being done about it - it's so bad, that the public sees this crap happening and doesn't bat an eyelid, doesn't take any kind of action to do something about it (of which there's much that can be done), and even tries to diminish the significance of it and diminish the calls to actually act on it, or (often) even discuss it.

That it is worse somewhere else, provides absolutely zero 'perspective', it is (and only can be) whataboutery - you don't demand better standards for your country, based on other countries (least of all the worst of them - which is what people are using as examples here...), you demand better standards based on what's possible - otherwise it's a race-to the bottom in standards, with people excusing inaction by saying "shure it's not as bad as Somalia" or such.


There's actually zero self-flagellation among the people who are angry that nothing is being done about this: The encouragement for self-flagellation comes from the types who say "look to and admonish yourselves, for it's the fault of all of us" (which implicitly says it's not instead, the fault of the small elite committing all the greedy/corrupt acts), who push that line of thinking, in order to try and derail/defocus the discussion, and redirect anger away from those that deserve it (the corrupt elite), back towards the general public.

People should be angry about all of this, and people should be angry that the general population is not doing more to resolve this, and that if anything, the general population plays it down more than anything else.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Then you've got the whingers - those who complain about it, point fingers at others, create divisions... yet do not offer one iota of an alternative to change things. They blame other ordinary people as well as politicians, which is utter scapegoating, despite being ordinary people themselves who don't effect change either. I think it's hard to create an alternative to these problems because the issues start at the top, not the bottom, and people being divided and conquered and at each others' throats at the bottom are the perfect conditions for the rot at the top to thrive.

I have the insight/knowledge, to either know or easily figure out the alternatives (for instance, I've put the time into researching/learning about alternatives to our economic problems, such that I know more than the vast majority of economists out there) - and for most of our most pressing problems, I precisely know what exact alternatives we need.
Alternatives/solutions are not the problem - the lack of political/protest action for achieving those solutions is the problem.

We are well past the 'figure out solutions' stage, the entire problem is getting the solutions enacted - it's not like it's hard to figure out solutions to the problem posed in the OP (greed/corruption - hint: regulations/investigation/prosecution).

The blame for the greed/corruption lies with those who undertake the greedy/corrupt acts (we can consider these people, part of the 'undemocratic elite', who wield disproportionate power over society, or who extract disproportionate wealth from society), the blame for inaction in the face of this corruption, lies with politicians who are part of an increasingly dysfunctional political system, and the blame for inaction in the face of this dysfunctional political system, lies with the public, who need to be far more politically engaged (both with protests and political movements) in order for any of that to be resolved.

Femme_Fatale

It's not whataboutery to tell people to cop on when they make out Ireland is famous for greed and corruption, when that accolade would actually be more an e.g. Italy thing. It's just common-sense.

KyussBishop wrote: »

There's actually zero self-flagellation among the people who are angry that nothing is being done about this

Don't know about that - what about those "Typical Irish, doing nothing and taking it up the backside" type useless comments?

The encouragement for self-flagellation comes from the types who say "look to and admonish yourselves, for it's the fault of all of us"

I agree there, but the lines are often blurred. You have people on this very thread who appear to agree with you but are also saying stuff that is similar to the above, e.g. "Ireland, as a nation, is a bunch of greedy mé féiners."

Sir Arthur Daley

Its for the love of money.

periodictable

There's no real sense of public service in this country. The attitude is "how can I profit from it".
It struck me some months back when there was the annual outcry about overgrown hedges in the countryside, with county councils and farmers pleading poverty and inability to pay for hedge cutting. Clare County Council came up with a plan to subsidize landowners to the tune of €25/ kilometre if they cut their hedgerows. Suddenly, hedgerows were cut.
This excerpt is from the Clare County Council webpage:

"According to Joe Arkins, Mayor of Clare: "The Roads Act, 1993 stipulates that all growth emanating from any part of the roadside boundary structure or from within the land protected by same is the responsibility of the landowner. From a road safety point of view, it is important that this responsibility is acknowledged and embraced by roadside landowners and the Community Hedge Cutting Grant Scheme is intended to provide support in this context."

Clearly, the responsibility is on the landowner, so why the hell not order them to do it? I have extensive hedgerows, and budget each year to cut. It's not that expensive. It's my duty and I reject anyone attempting to line my pockets with taxpayers money for something which I am required by law to do. Perhaps the council would subsidize my road tax?

It's the same attitude with boards on semi-state bodies- who can I call in a favour from and lobby to get on the board to draw expenses and stipend?
Next we have the quality or lack thereof of the board appointees.
I believe a Fianna Fail TD Vincent Brady was/is on the CRC Board-what's his expertise? I know he imports chainsaws but quite how that links into the running of the CRC is beyond me. Ms Kerins of Rehab, a serial board hopper....she's a midwife....what exquisite expertise lacking in others has she contributed to the various boards she has been a member of?
I frankly despair of this country, and the gombeen and grabbing mentality of so many people. To any youngster who plans to emigrate, I say go for it, get citizenship of your new country ,see the world and how other countries work, and from afar you'll appreciate the good and the bad aspects of this country. It truly is the sow that eats its farrow.

lufties

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Grrr... still at this.

Maybe it's partially about your and others' own perspectives/prejudices/biases?

My personal take is to drill down to the grassroots, individual level.
I don't deny broad trends, but I don't always like taking them to be the overall picture either because it's unfair on those who don't fit into the box people seem so intent on creating.
Undoubtedly Ireland has the gombeen, the stroke-puller, the cute hoor - and they don't get held accountable the way they would in e.g. the UK, which is infuriating.
Yet in my day-to-day dealings, virtually nobody supports that kind of crap. You'd see a little bit of it here on Boards actually - "What a legend", "We'd all do the same if we were them" etc, but only from a tiny minority. I will concede it may be more prevalent overall in certain rural, isolated areas (like in Kerry, Mayo and Tipperary - we all know what I'm talking about ) but that is not Ireland in its entirety.

And I know it has been said, but it's particularly apt here - there is a major tendency to self flagellate among some Irish people. I used to be like that myself - automatically, unquestioningly thinking "we're this, that and the other". Probably because I felt it was an "enlightened" way to think. When I eventually critically thought it through, I realised it's not a good way to be, particularly seeing as I am also Irish. You can't blame Irish people reading this thread for getting annoyed at these wild allegations being made of them, especially from fellow Irish people (who aren't referring to themselves of course).
The reason people are comparing Ireland to other countries is not to deny or mitigate the issues here, but to encourage people who act as if Ireland is "famous" for corruption and greed to calm down and have a bit of perspective - and to bear in mind it is not just an Irish thing, so maybe rein in the self flagellation. It may manifest itself in a way that's very specific to Ireland, but greed and corruption are not especially Irish traits, and it's kinda nuts to imply they are.

Then you've got these twats (can't think of a more polite term) who go on and on about "Ireland" being only out for itself and the government being to blame for everything bla bla... while at the same time having this colossal sense of entitlement and feeling they shouldn't have to pay bills/charges (and I don't just mean stuff like the property tax, but taxes that go towards social benefits). That attitude is most certainly not for the greater good and is utter mé féinism. An extreme example would be those "Freeman" idiots.

Then you've got the whingers - those who complain about it, point fingers at others, create divisions... yet do not offer one iota of an alternative to change things. They blame other ordinary people as well as politicians, which is utter scapegoating, despite being ordinary people themselves who don't effect change either. I think it's hard to create an alternative to these problems because the issues start at the top, not the bottom, and people being divided and conquered and at each others' throats at the bottom are the perfect conditions for the rot at the top to thrive.

I think femme ,that in the real world you and I would never get on outside of boards.ie,, like chalk and cheese. I don't hate Irish people, not by a long shot. living there though made me bitter, as I met the most horrible pr1cks i've ever met there. I don't blame anyone and just accept the way it is there, It's great to visit every now and then but thats all. The one 'one up on your neighbour culture', cute hoor thing is exhausting too. Oh yes and thats nothing to do with self flagellation, I'm actually quite comfotable in my own skin.