Why is there so much Greed in Ireland?

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It's not whataboutery to tell people to cop on when they make out Ireland is famous for greed and corruption, when that accolade would actually be more an e.g. Italy thing. It's just common-sense.

The thing is, it's not common-sense though (common sense, can also be defined, as views a lot of people hold as true, but which are often logically false ):
That a problem is worse in another country, doesn't make it any less valid to point it out as a big problem here.

The problem with Ireland, is that we don't know about a lot of the corruption/fraud/crime that exists, because a lot of it is hidden white-collar type stuff ('respectable' corruption/fraud/crime) - don't forget we're a massive tax haven and financial (fraud) hub - that's pretty different to the more obvious Mafiaesque corruption in Italy.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Don't know about that - what about those "Typical Irish, doing nothing and taking it up the backside" type useless comments?

I guess I'm interpreting 'self-flagellation' in a different way, more like admonishing ourselves into subservience ("we're all to blame, we all deserve what we get"), whereas I'd view that more as admonishing ourselves into action, with the person saying it not applying it to themselves (not justifying it mind, when people make a statement like that without backing, it comes across as lacking - even though there's truth to it - and could be expressed better).

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I agree there, but the lines are often blurred. You have people on this very thread who appear to agree with you but are also saying stuff that is similar to the above, e.g. "Ireland, as a nation, is a bunch of greedy mé féiners."

Ya I guess that's true, generalizing is never accurate and all, even if there's some truth to it - I just view it as an (understandable) expression of frustration, even if it's not all that helpful.

It's definitely better when that kind of sentiment is expressed more accurately, without generalizing to everyone - it helps keep the focus on the real problem, without that being distracted away from by focusing on the generalization.

ted_dancin

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We're a society of individuals. It shows thorough all walks of life here. There's also admiration for someone who pulls a stroke and gets one up on someone else. We might all cry out about the big scandals, but on a domestic level people are happy to go in the take.

I went for a job interview on a public sector role before Christmas. The amount if people that asked me if I had any pull in the organisation or knew someone who could pull a stroke was truly depressing.

irish people want and expect the state to mother them , I don't think we are a particulary individualistic people , at least not in any idealogical sense , then again irish people are deeply unidealogical

ted_dancin

qdawg86 wrote: »

There are plenty of money hungry elite in New Zealand as well !!!

Ireland is a superior country to new Zealand on every level

Frank Lee Midere

lufties wrote: »

For God's sake, will you stop trying to defend the indefensible. You can provide all the stats you want. Bottom line is we are as a collective a bunch of me feiners, who do not act for the good of the nation as a whole, only parochial and self gain. There you go, general sweeping statement.

I love the way that actual stats can't even persuade the self-haters.

stoneill

ted_dancin wrote: »

Ireland is a superior country to new Zealand on every level

I would disagree - on par with each other maybe, but not superior.

Aidric

KyussBishop wrote: »

The problem with Ireland, is that we don't know about a lot of the corruption/fraud/crime that exists, because a lot of it is hidden white-collar type stuff ('respectable' corruption/fraud/crime) - don't forget we're a massive tax haven and financial (fraud) hub - that's pretty different to the more obvious Mafiaesque corruption in Italy.

What fraud would that be? Operating within a tax framework wasn't a fraud last time I checked.

6781

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is why I fecked off out of Ireland and went to New Zealand. ..

Only hazarding a guess here but I'd say it's more likely you left Ireland because you couldn't find work here.

KyussBishop

Aidric wrote: »

What fraud would that be? Operating within a tax framework wasn't a fraud last time I checked.

Anglo; banks giving out mortgages under fraudulent conflicts of interest, including breaching of regulations (confirmed by whistleblowers); financial institutions implicated in manipulating LIBOR/EURIBOR and many other financial markets (many of which are also located in Ireland) - this has cost money for almost every living person on the planet, due to what these interest rates are tied into (just about everything); money laundering through Ireland as a means of tax evasion rather than just avoidance.

That's not even the start of it either; there's massive fraud all throughout the worldwide financial system, including in Ireland - and what we do end up seeing, is just the tip of the iceberg of what goes on, because it is so unregulated and uninvestigated, and many types of actions that should be clamped down on and classed as fraudulent, are decriminalized.

Augmerson

I think Ireland does have a problem with greed and corruption, but the more serious issue is how certain circles of society are protected from any repercussions. Nobody is ever arrested, punished, made an example of. Greed and corruption is a lot more likely to flourish when people realise they can get away with it. They people who crashed the economy and brought the country to its knees are still free.

Aidric

KyussBishop wrote: »

Anglo; banks giving out mortgages under fraudulent conflicts of interest, including breaching of regulations (confirmed by whistleblowers); financial institutions implicated in manipulating LIBOR/EURIBOR and many other financial markets (many of which are also located in Ireland) - this has cost money for almost every living person on the planet, due to what these interest rates are tied into (just about everything); money laundering through Ireland as a means of tax evasion rather than just avoidance.

That's not even the start of it either; there's massive fraud all throughout the worldwide financial system, including in Ireland - and what we do end up seeing, is just the tip of the iceberg of what goes on, because it is so unregulated and uninvestigated, and many types of actions that should be clamped down on and classed as fraudulent, are decriminalized.

You referred to tax fraud within ROI. I'm asking you for specific examples of this. Companies practicing advantageous and legal tax planning doesn't constitute fraud.

The LIBOR manipulation you refer to was actioned. RBS, Citi, Deutsche, Barclays and JPM all took hits.

KyussBishop

Aidric wrote: »

You referred to tax fraud within ROI. I'm asking you for specific examples of this. Companies practicing advantageous and legal tax planning doesn't constitute fraud.

The LIBOR manipulation you refer to was actioned. RBS, Citi, Deutsche, Barclays and JPM all took hits.

Stuff like this gives a pretty good idea:

A report published by the Department of Justice’s anti-money- laundering compliance unit revealed that between 2009 and 2011, there were more than 39,000 suspicious transaction reported to gardaí.

However, during the same period, there were only 10 convictions.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/fighting-money-laundering-still-a-challenge-for-ireland-236190.html

That covers all sorts, including tax evasion.

Doesn't matter that LIBOR was actioned (it was a slap on the wrist as well - which barely dented the profits these institutions made):
This was rampant fraud that's been going on for decades, backing exactly what I've said - and we're still waiting for more fraud investigations into manipulation of various commodities markets, which nobody seems in a rush to check out.

What we have is an environment of such badly failed regulations and pervasive fraud, that stuff like LIBOR went on for decades, and even when it is discovered, the fines were pathetic compared to the profits, which provides zero deterrence against committing similar fraud again in the future.


That (the most gigantic fraud in world history, LIBOR, right under our noses for decades by some of the most respected financial institutions) - that also gives precedent for asking "what else are they doing that we don't know about?", and gives justification for taking a cynical attitude, and assuming that massive fraud is still widescale throughout the industry (and industry that has practically no transparency, is largely opaque).

We haven't seen any appreciable increase in regulations, or any kind of meaningful prosecutions, and the fines have been so weak they serve as no kind of deterrent:
Given the proof of fraud that has gone on for so long, and the complete lack of reform, you'd need to be incredibly naive or apologistic, to think that there isn't still massive, pervasive fraud all throughout the financial industry - there's plenty of precedent and proof of it from the present.

mad muffin

ted_dancin wrote: »

Ireland is a superior country to new Zealand on every level

It's like saying Mussolini is better than Hitler… Hitler... Hitler... :eek:

cloudatlas

Lack of regulation. A sudden injection of revenue, false values imposed by society the triumphalism of materialism over all else.

Eight Ball

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. I think a bunch of Irish people have it in their heads that Ireland, just because they're familiar with it, is more greedy than anywhere else. It's nonsense.

And I lol at people who go on about how largescale the corruption is in Ireland. There has been corruption, yes, but if people genuinely think Ireland is at the top of the scale, they need to stop being so naive and do a bit of research.

I've lived in Canada, America, Holland, Germany, Portugal and Turkey. Ireland is by far the most corrupt country from the places ive lived without doubt. Greed is prevalent in every facet of our society from the top to the bottom whether it be the farmer, the doctor, the politican or the publican.

dxhound2005

Augmerson wrote: »

I think Ireland does have a problem with greed and corruption, but the more serious issue is how certain circles of society are protected from any repercussions. Nobody is ever arrested, punished, made an example of. Greed and corruption is a lot more likely to flourish when people realise they can get away with it. They people who crashed the economy and brought the country to its knees are still free.

It's all right making sweeping statements and attributing a supposed whole approach to greed by "Ireland". Well it's not all right but it happens all the time on threads like this.

But to make a false statement "Nobody is ever arrested" means either you are completely out of touch with the news or you are deliberately igonoring reality.
And how do you propose that someone be made an example of?

Augmerson

mad muffin wrote: »

It's like saying Mussolini is better than Hitler… Hitler... Hitler... :eek:

Hitler did copy a lot of things off Mussolini apparently.

Augmerson

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's all right making sweeping statements and attributing a supposed whole approach to greed by "Ireland". Well it's not all right but it happens all the time on threads like this.

But to make a false statement "Nobody is ever arrested" means either you are completely out of touch with the news or you are deliberately igonoring reality.
And how do you propose that someone be made an example of?

Ah people are arrested but thats as far as it goes, never anybody at the top. I don't think that is a false statement to make, because I'm talking about the Golden Circle here. It's like one rule for them, one rule for us.

If it was down to me, I'd really just like to see justice and fairness at work. If people have stolen or misused or misappropriated public funds, abused public positions or acted in a corrupt fashion then I would like to see them banned from public service and pensions struck off.

Any decisions or actions they effected which turns out to be a misuse of power should be reversed. That all said, that isn't very democratic, that's just me wanting revenge, no matter how I justify it.

It's not that simple because there actually need to be laws in place to govern things like this and you know there is no way people in power would vote through something like that. You wouldn't see Chickens saving up and helping out the Farmer to buy an Axe that will ultimately sever their heads.

mad muffin

Augmerson wrote: »

Hitler did copy a lot of things off Mussolini apparently.

According to this http://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-ranks-21-out-of-177-countries-on-corruption-index-1.1615524

New Zealand is ranked number least corrupt and Ireland is 25th.

dxhound2005

Augmerson wrote: »

Ah people are arrested but thats as far as it goes, never anybody at the top. I don't think that is a false statement to make, because I'm talking about the Golden Circle here. It's like one rule for them, one rule for us.

If it was down to me, I'd really just like to see justice and fairness at work. If people have stolen or misused or misappropriated public funds, abused public positions or acted in a corrupt fashion then I would like to see them banned from public service and pensions struck off.

Any decisions or actions they effected which turns out to be a misuse of power should be reversed. That all said, that isn't very democratic, that's just me wanting revenge, no matter how I justify it.

It's not that simple because there actually need to be laws in place to govern things like this and you know there is no way people in power would vote through something like that. You wouldn't see Chickens saving up and helping out the Farmer to buy an Axe that will ultimately sever their heads.

The top man at Anglo and the top man at Irish Life and Permanent are currently awaiting trial. How do you know what the verdicts will be when the cases have not even begun? The former richest man in Ireland and his son were sent to jail if you remember. The Golden Circle might well get their collars felt for being involved with the people who have been arrested/jailed.

Femme_Fatale

lufties wrote: »

I think femme ,that in the real world you and I would never get on outside of boards.ie,, like chalk and cheese.

Really? God that thought never even occurred to me - I don't know you, you don't know me. We may disagree on this topic but for all I know we might agree on lots of other stuff; I never think I won't get on with someone just because of disagreement in a particular online debate.
I don't even disagree with you as much as you think; I recognise what you're talking about and agree it's sh1t but don't think it's as widespread as you say it is, and I think people are, for the most part, good. It's a minority who are dicks. Maybe I have too optimistic a view of people but I make no apologies for that and I ain't changing - I think it's a good way to be! Finding/looking for bad in people is an awfully self destructive mindset.

living there though made me bitter, as I met the most horrible pr1cks i've ever met there.

That's kinda strange tbh. Most Irish people don't encounter people who are so dreadful that it's made them emigrate. I mean, it's pretty extreme. I can't accept either that horrible people are more commonplace in Ireland than in other countries.
I don't see much point in moaning a lot about awful things other people do, and getting angered and really miserable about it, and doing nothing.
I prefer to try and be as good a person as I can be.
If a person focuses intently on all the awfulness of other people rather than examining where they can make improvements themselves, they'll never be happy...

KyussBishop wrote: »

That a problem is worse in another country, doesn't make it any less valid to point it out as a big problem here.

I know, and have acknowledged that. It's when people make out Ireland is one of the worst though (a blatant fallacy) that it's not unfair to point out where it actually ranks.

Legs.Eleven

Eight Ball wrote: »

I've lived in Canada, America, Holland, Germany, Portugal and Turkey. Ireland is by far the most corrupt country from the places ive lived without doubt. Greed is prevalent in every facet of our society from the top to the bottom whether it be the farmer, the doctor, the politican or the publican.

More corrupt than Portugal? Eh, I don't think so. Garbage, in fact.



Has anyone actually taken a look at this at all? Turkey is way down the list too.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

lufties

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Really? God that thought never even occurred to me - I don't know you, you don't know me. We may disagree on this topic but for all I know we might agree on lots of other stuff; I never think I won't get on with someone just because of disagreement in a particular online debate.
I don't even disagree with you as much as you think; I recognise what you're talking about and agree it's sh1t but don't think it's as widespread as you say it is, and I think people are, for the most part, good. It's a minority who are dicks. Maybe I have too optimistic a view of people but I make no apologies for that and I ain't changing - I think it's a good way to be! Finding/looking for bad in people is an awfully self destructive mindset.

That's kinda strange tbh. Most Irish people don't encounter people who are so dreadful that it's made them emigrate. I mean, it's pretty extreme. I can't accept either that horrible people are more commonplace in Ireland than in other countries.
I don't see much point in moaning a lot about awful things other people do, and getting angered and really miserable about it, and doing nothing.
I prefer to try and be as good a person as I can be.
If a person focuses intently on all the awfulness of other people rather than examining where they can make improvements themselves, they'll never be happy...

I know, and have acknowledged that. It's when people make out Ireland is one of the worst though (a blatant fallacy) that it's not unfair to point out where it actually ranks.

It contributed to me emigrating and that's the truth. my views are tame on life in Ireland. some people I've encountered abroad actually try to stay away from Irish where possible, imagine that, to stay away from your own kind? And I'm not talking the misery porn club that are pissed up every other night .Anyway, thats off topic and for another day. All I'm saying is you have to walk in someone else's shoes to understand how they feel.

Femme_Fatale

lufties wrote: »

imagine that, to stay away from your own kind?

Aye, an exceptionally irrational and bizarre and prejudicial position.

kupus

Augmerson wrote: »

I think Ireland does have a problem with greed and corruption, but the more serious issue is how certain circles of society are protected from any repercussions. Nobody is ever arrested, punished, made an example of. Greed and corruption is a lot more likely to flourish when people realise they can get away with it. They people who crashed the economy and brought the country to its knees are still free.

Didnt yer man get jailed for tax avoidance on the garlic scam, also didnt a few pensioners get prosecuted and jailed for tv licence evasion.
Jesus what more do you want!

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The top man at Anglo and the top man at Irish Life and Permanent are currently awaiting trial. How do you know what the verdicts will be when the cases have not even begun? The former richest man in Ireland and his son were sent to jail if you remember. The Golden Circle might well get their collars felt for being involved with the people who have been arrested/jailed.

Ever stop to think and wonder who stitched him up. I am not a supporter of his by any means....I admire his work ethic and the way he constructed a huge company out of 1 truck. .....but he was out of his depth when it came to playing with the big boys and unfortunately for him his family and his workers he didnt realise it due to so called experts.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

More corrupt than Portugal? Eh, I don't think so. Garbage, in fact.
Has anyone actually taken a look at this at all? Turkey is way down the list too.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I know, and have acknowledged that. It's when people make out Ireland is one of the worst though (a blatant fallacy) that it's not unfair to point out where it actually ranks.

Girls( I think both of you are girls) I have had dealings with countries in the bottom half of that index.... Edit:(I know this is the internet and you dont have to believe what i say) but trust me on this when I say that Ireland IS just as bad. Its a different type of corruption, not as blatant nad in your face, but it still impacts on EVERYBODY.

And sticking the head in the sand and wishing for it to go away does nobody any good, especially the citizens of Ireland.

And yet again I have to say whats the point of saying at least we're better than Somalia.

Would it not be better to say we're better than Scandinavia, or NZ?

Femme_Fatale

kupus wrote: »

sticking the head in the sand and wishing for it to go away does nobody any good, especially the citizens of Ireland.

And yet again I have to say whats the point of saying at least we're better than Somalia.

I don't agree it's as widespread as you say - I guess much of it boils down to perception. But whingeing about it and doing nothing won't achieve anything either. Try to focus on being the most decent person you can be; if everyone did that, it would be a wonderful world.
The point of saying at least we're better than Somalia is as a response to people who pretend Ireland is on a par with Somalia (an insult to people living in horrific circumstances in Somalia).
It is not a denial of the problems Ireland has, or a claim that everything is all right here once we're not as bad as Somalia.

SpaceTime

We actually rank somewhere between the USA and France on the corruption perception index.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

Bear in mind it's PERCEPTION too. So, things like patriotism and attitudes tend to come into it a bit as well.

Irish people (and actually the UK, France and a few other places) in my experience are high self-critical and can have far worse self-perceptions than reality. While some other countries can be quite blindly patriotic and can distort the perception the other way too.

Perception's always a tricky one !
Although the CPI is probably the only standardised league table we have on corruption at present.

lufties

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Aye, an exceptionally irrational and bizarre and prejudicial position.

Yes quite prejudicial indeed. Saying that though, 5 years ago when I went to Australia, I had some aussie lads and some Irish. The Irish ones were some of the most sneaky, dishonest,vindictive, bullies I've ever come across. The Aussie lads were what you see is what get ,pretty much.

This is nothing more than an observation. Most of my friends are Irish. Perhaps It was just bad luck on my part, as I haven't experienced this since.

Augmerson

kupus wrote: »

Didnt yer man get jailed for tax avoidance on the garlic scam, also didnt a few pensioners get prosecuted and jailed for tv licence evasion.
Jesus what more do you want!

I'm talking about the people who brought down the economy, the Golden Circle. Sneaking some garlic into the country was hardly our undoing, Another posted however did point out that a couple of people from Anglo look likely to face the courts and had been arrested. Relax.

kupus

Augmerson wrote: »

I'm talking about the people who brought down the economy, the Golden Circle. Sneaking some garlic into the country was hardly our undoing, Another posted however did point out that a couple of people from Anglo look likely to face the courts and had been arrested. Relax.

Ishould have put smileys at the end of the sentence. I was being sarcastic