Aggression to other dogs

gimmick

My 18 month old Cocker up to very recently was extremely passive to other dogs. Indeed, he was very playful with other dogs. It seems, all of a sudden, he no longer likes other dogs. He is snapping and barking at them even when they show no signs of aggression toward him. While we would be walking, whether he was on or off the lead, other dogs aggression never fazed him. There are certain neighbour dogs, Jack Russells and Bichon Freises who would always have a go at him, but he would never so much as look at them. Now he is snarling and barking. Not at all dogs, but visibly lots more than ever before.

What could have caused this? We have changed nothing in his routine or diet.

falabo

Do you always walk the same route ? In your estate ? If so, is he only doing it where he feels it's his territory ?

Is he good on the lead or taking you for a walk ?

gimmick

We do a few different routes.

He is a puller alright.

Mince Pie

Usually barking and snarling is pre empting out of fear from what I can gather.
Dogs feel vulnerable if they are unwell. When did they last have a visit to the vet?

ABajaninCork

Has he had bother with other dogs before? And has he been neutered?

gimmick

No trouble with others before aside from a few dogs barking at him. He has never been attacked or anything.

He is going for the snip Feb 7th.

He was last at the vet 2 weeks ago to get his kennel cough vac.

Karlitto

gimmick wrote: »

My 18 month old Cocker up to very recently was extremely passive to other dogs. Indeed, he was very playful with other dogs. It seems, all of a sudden, he no longer likes other dogs. He is snapping and barking at them even when they show no signs of aggression toward him. While we would be walking, whether he was on or off the lead, other dogs aggression never fazed him. There are certain neighbour dogs, Jack Russells and Bichon Freises who would always have a go at him, but he would never so much as look at them. Now he is snarling and barking. Not at all dogs, but visibly lots more than ever before.

What could have caused this? We have changed nothing in his routine or diet.

Heya, I had the exact same issue with my former dog,

This could be due to several things.

1: Not being neutered, note on neutering, it is not a "quick fix" to calm a dog down, it can take up to 6 months to start seeing a change

2: If you walk in the same area, or area's all of the time, the dog could see this as his own territory, try chopping it up a bit and go somewhere random a few times, see how he reacts to that

3: Has he had any bad experiences with other dogs? I mean more than being barked at, has he been attacked?

4: Something changed at home, is there a new person in the house? Or has someone left the house, changed where he sleeps etc?

What I found worked great (and it doesn't sound like a good idea to you, I know, I was the same) is, go somewhere where there are tonnes of dogs in the same area, doesn't have to be a pack, but just a load of dogs, keep him on a short lead and walk in and around the dogs, check him every time he has a go at another dog, try snap him out of the confrontational stance or if he is staring at another dog. He will eventually get to a stage where he will say "hey, this is normal" and you can use a normal length lead, and eventually let him off the lead.

Don't stop him from interacting with other dogs, and the hardest part now, don't anticipate him attacking, the dog will feed of your emotion, if you are nervous, that will transpire into the dog and make him nervous, nervous = defensive.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Oh, and make sure you get him knackered before doing this, dogs are easy to train when they are tired as they put up less of a fight. This is also a good time to train him not to pull on the lead.

DBB

gimmick wrote: »

While we would be walking, whether he was on or off the lead, other dogs aggression never fazed him. There are certain neighbour dogs, Jack Russells and Bichon Freises who would always have a go at him, but he would never so much as look at them.

You can be pretty sure that all of these seemingly small incidents have taken their toll.
A dog does not have to touch another dog to cause damage.... it can be extremely intimidating for a dog, particularly a youngster, to be the victim of a "have a go" incident, and just because he didn't react does not mean he didn't mind... chances are that his non-reaction was actually an attempt to make himself less of a threat to the JRTs and Bichons etc, and that in fact, whilst they were having a go, he was thinking "feck, feck, feck, feck", and wishing he wasn't there.
The fact that it happened multiple times just added and added to the damage.
But now he's not a puppy any more. He's a young male, and he's of an age where a dog will start to assert himself a bit more, and will start to exhibit behaviours which are more indicative of his true emotional status: more than likely, he's fearful.
Being quiet has not worked well for him so far... he still got intimidated despite trying to stay quiet and polite. So he has no other option now but to try to fight the offending dogs off.

Which is why this:

Karlitto wrote: »

go somewhere where there are tonnes of dogs in the same area, doesn't have to be a pack, but just a load of dogs, keep him on a short lead and walk in and around the dogs, check him every time he has a go at another dog, try snap him out of the confrontational stance or if he is staring at another dog. He will eventually get to a stage where he will say "hey, this is normal" and you can use a normal length lead, and eventually let him off the lead.

.. is not something I would consider. Ever.

Why? Because it's a process which qualified behaviourists will not use, it can be potentially disastrous.
It's called flooding... i.e. placing a fearful dog in amongst a large amount of things he's frightened of to, apparently, "desensitise" him. This is a catastrophic misunderstanding of what can actually happen when you do this sort of thing to your dog.
To add insult to injury, "checking" him every time he reacts makes him even more fearful, gives him an even bigger reason to be afraid of what's going on both around him, and at the other end of his lead.

The problem with flooding is that the dog can become so intimidated, so frightened to make a wrong move, that he shuts down. It's called "learned helplessness". The still, quiet, shut-down dog looks as if he's miraculously "cured" (Cesar Milan banks on his viewers thinking this).
But in fact, all the dog is doing is seriously inhibiting the fear and consequent aggression he's feeling: if he goes off on one when he's the new kid on the block amongst lots of dogs, he risks injury, or at best, further intimidation.
The owner placing a dog into a position where he has to inhibit negative emotions is catastrophic.
Flooding does not address why the dog is feeling fearful and aggressive. And that is why it is so, so dangerous, and not good at all for the welfare of the dog.
It is critical to address the underlying emotion, NOT the symptoms of it (the aggressive behaviour).

Gimmick, were you on the lookout for a qualified behaviourist recently, or am I thinking of someone else?:o

VonVix

Ah, cockers. As you said he's a puller I would recommend taking him for a run. Maybe you're just not going fast enough for him. All the cockers I've met have just loved to whizz around as fast as they could.

How do you handle it when he "has a go" at another dog?

You've got lots of good advice here, so I'll throw in my two cents.

My boys have gone/are going through a period where they couldn't take their eyes off another dog and would make sure to keep checking where they were, they never barked or showed aggression, but both avoiding a situation and trying to hide away is fearful behaviour just like barking and snapping can be.

I started bringing treats on my walks and when no-one was around I'd get them to sit, lie down, etc. so they would have better focus on me when on walks (there's a difference between doing these things at home and in a public place) and help them realise there are benefits when they check in with me, I then moved on to doing the same thing around other people/dogs to get their focus off someone else and onto me. I also treated them when they showed desired body language around other dogs. They have improved tremendously but are by no means 'fixed' yet, it's a long process, but they are far better at walking on than they used to be.

Remember, your dog doesn't HAVE to play with other dogs, but being able to be in the presence of another dog without doing a thing is absolutely fine.

Karlitto

DBB wrote: »

Which is why this:



.. is not something I would consider. Ever.

Why? Because it's a process which qualified behaviourists will not use, it can be potentially disastrous.
It's called flooding... i.e. placing a fearful dog in amongst a large amount of things he's frightened of to, apparently, "desensitise" him. This is a catastrophic misunderstanding of what can actually happen when you do this sort of thing to your dog.
To add insult to injury, "checking" him every time he reacts makes him even more fearful, gives him an even bigger reason to be afraid of what's going on both around him, and at the other end of his lead.

The problem with flooding is that the dog can become so intimidated, so frightened to make a wrong move, that he shuts down. It's called "learned helplessness". The still, quiet, shut-down dog looks as if he's miraculously "cured" (Cesar Milan banks on his viewers thinking this).
But in fact, all the dog is doing is seriously inhibiting the fear and consequent aggression he's feeling: if he goes off on one when he's the new kid on the block amongst lots of dogs, he risks injury, or at best, further intimidation.
The owner placing a dog into a position where he has to inhibit negative emotions is catastrophic.
Flooding does not address why the dog is feeling fearful and aggressive. And that is why it is so, so dangerous, and not good at all for the welfare of the dog.
It is critical to address the underlying emotion, NOT the symptoms of it (the aggressive behaviour).

Gimmick, were you on the lookout for a qualified behaviourist recently, or am I thinking of someone else?:o

I completely understand the logic behind that, haven't heard that reasoning before, but I am simply suggesting what my behaviorist suggested for Gimli, and it worked And to be honest, it seems like the situation is very similar. Oh, and by the way, I hate that guy! With a passion. (Ceaser Milan) so fake it is unreal.

gimmick

DBB wrote: »

You can be pretty sure that all of these seemingly small incidents have taken their toll.

Being quiet has not worked well for him so far... he still got intimidated despite trying to stay quiet and polite. So he has no other option now but to try to fight the offending dogs off.

I hate to think that he was ever afraid. usually when the other dogs would bark or snarl at him, he would look at them while still walking (I would imagine him saying "what the f**k is their problem" in his dog voice) and move on. Never occurred to me anything else would be an issue

Gimmick, were you on the lookout for a qualified behaviourist recently, or am I thinking of someone else?:o

Not me. Maybe I may have asked over a year ago, but his behavior is generally pretty good.

VonVix wrote: »

How do you handle it when he "has a go" at another dog?

Usually tell the other dog to f**k off and coerce my fella to keep going, followed by a "good boy" for not reacting

You've got lots of good advice here, so I'll throw in my two cents.

My boys have gone/are going through a period where they couldn't take their eyes off another dog and would make sure to keep checking where they were, they never barked or showed aggression, but both avoiding a situation and trying to hide away is fearful behaviour just like barking and snapping can be.

I started bringing treats on my walks and when no-one was around I'd get them to sit, lie down, etc. so they would have better focus on me when on walks (there's a difference between doing these things at home and in a public place) and help them realise there are benefits when they check in with me, I then moved on to doing the same thing around other people/dogs to get their focus off someone else and onto me. I also treated them when they showed desired body language around other dogs. They have improved tremendously but are by no means 'fixed' yet, it's a long process, but they are far better at walking on than they used to be.

Ill start bringing treats with me more often. Thanks. The above makes a lot of sense.

Remember, your dog doesn't HAVE to play with other dogs, but being able to be in the presence of another dog without doing a thing is absolutely fine.

I should just point out, he isn't aggressive to all dogs. Just thinking about it now, he tends to be more aggressive with smaller dogs who I assume he associates with JRTs and Bichons etc? Also, he can be very social with other dogs, but as I am thinking again, it seems to be when he approaches the other dog. So it seems to be play on his terms.

fatmammycat

VonVix wrote: »

I started bringing treats on my walks and when no-one was around I'd get them to sit, lie down, etc. so they would have better focus on me when on walks (there's a difference between doing these things at home and in a public place) and help them realise there are benefits when they check in with me, I then moved on to doing the same thing around other people/dogs to get their focus off someone else and onto me. I also treated them when they showed desired body language around other dogs. They have improved tremendously but are by no means 'fixed' yet, it's a long process, but they are far better at walking on than they used to be.

Remember, your dog doesn't HAVE to play with other dogs, but being able to be in the presence of another dog without doing a thing is absolutely fine.

This is really great advice, I particularly like your last line and would cheer it if I could.
Some dogs are not remotely interested in playing with other dogs. My own dog is a prime example of this and now that he is reaching sexual, physical and mental maturity he is even less inclined to be a social butterfly.
But he IS required to be well behaved and neutral in the company of other dogs, even dogs that are giddy, fearful or in some cases barking in his face. I don't have the kind of dog that would stroll around a park in a casual fashion, he likes to work, so that's what we do, we work- fetching and finding. He gets so absorbed in this he cares nothing for other dogs, and by the time we're heading for home he's so tired he's even less interested again.
Gimmick, _ like DBB_I would avoid flooding your dog and instead work with him well within his emotional threashold ( that means before he becomes fixated or vocal), using something of high value to him, either a toy or food or whatever he might fix on, and help him relax and redirect his anxiety. He may never be the kind of dog that enjoys the company of other dog the way some dogs seem to, but he can be a relaxed pet who enjoys his time out and is not constantly on the look out for trouble.

gimmick

fatmammycat wrote: »

T I don't have the kind of dog that would stroll around a park in a casual fashion, he likes to work, so that's what we do, we work- fetching and finding. He gets so absorbed in this he cares nothing for other dogs, and by the time we're heading for home he's so tired he's even less interested again.

Funny you say that as when we are out throwing a stick or a ball or whatever, there could be an earthquake around him and he wouldn't notice. Its all about the stick. I have seen plenty times where he is stood, poised, in position waiting for me to throw (sometimes asking if I haven't even picked up a stick yet), where another dog might come over for a sniff and Rufus will pay no attention to the other at all.

So with that in mind when I see other dogs approaching, I always pick up something to throw to take his focus away from the others. It works a lot of the time, but if the other dog is insistent, there can be a snappy reaction.

fatmammycat

See, I wouldn't mind him getting irked at a persistent dog too much as long as he didn't go all out attack on the dog. There's a rambunctious 8 month old GR pup who makes a giddy beeline for my dog everytime he sees him out working and my dog doesn't like it much so after being galloped around and jumped on for a few minutes he growls, huffs, even stands over the pup trying to dissuade him, to absolutely no avail, then my guy looks at me as if to say, 'well woman? I've tried everything in my arsenal BAR chomping him! You deal with him.'
The fact that your dog already has good focus is key here, you can turn his angst into work and as he gets older it will become second nature for you to redirect the moment he feels anxious. The more good experiences he has out and about, the more that becomes the norm, the more confident he will become.
Timing is everything, working beneath the anxiety line is really important too, at the moment he's reactive and with good reason if dogs have gone for him in the past, so work towards a more positive future, and good luck!

gimmick

Just a slight update here. not sure what it means but I am quite happy about it.

My wife and I are away this coming weekend with my folks and my sister and her bf. They are the usual babysitters when we are away, so need to put him to a kennel.

We found one and called over yesterday so he could scope the place out before he is abandoned on Friday. There were 5/6 other dogs there. He was a bit shy at the start but once he had a proper sniff around himself and a few of the other dogs started sniffing, running and wrestling with each other.

So whatever his issue is, it obviously isn't that big of one. Ill still be wary mind, but yesterday made me feel a lot happier that he isn't becoming a grouchy dog.