Anyone else depressed with house hunting?

McDook

Bepolite wrote: »

No they don't and they shouldn't be in a functioning market. The LL ends up with an asset worth hundreds of thousands of Euro at the end of the mortgage cycle. He can continue to rent it at pure profit or sell it. The situation where LL can make money on a mortgaged property makes absolutely no sense, it drives up rents and house prices.

If I want a place to live (a basic human need), I should be able to get that at an affordable and sustainable amount. That should either be an affordable mortgage by virtue of house prices being affordable or if I want a shorter term solution I should be able to rent. By allowing people with money to buy up all the property and rent it out you simply make the poor, poorer and the rich richer.

Who would invest to provide rental property then?
It wouldnt be long then before you would have no supply for rent and would have to buy if you wanted somewhere to live.
Then everyone would be in the same boat. More competition for the houses in desirable areas, rent would go up. You might be going to undesirable areas, even to Leitrim then for your affordable accommodation.

Remember the people who ended up paying more than their mortgage plus expenses than they were receiving in rent were people who were caught out by an economic disaster and made to pay more taxes. Thats how they ended up in that situation.

You wont find many people investing in property to rent nowadays, unless they see a clear profit in it for them.

I think people miss the point that housing is expensive. People all cant live where they want. They must move to where they can afford, or increase their affordability somehow.

A lot of people I know can buy an apartment now in Dublin with less than a years salary. They wouldnt touch them for the last few years, but now they are buying them because there is money to be made in property and they have enough in other investments and want to diversify into something else too. These places were all cheaper a couple of years ago and anyone could have bought them. Now that people are interested in them of course they are going to be harder to buy.

I get the feeling that most people, myself included, waited as property prices kept going down until the price was right for them. For some of us the price reached the right level. Others need lower prices to reach our level. The ones whos level hasnt been reached now, when prices seem to be ticking up or hovering, are getting panicked. Either they bring their price point up to meet property prices now, or they wait it out and hope they go down. If they dont go dont, then they must move out to where they can afford at that point.

Frank Lee Midere

Bepolite wrote: »

Sorry I've rather dragged this off topic.

I'm less depressed today. A shed load of property in my price bracket has suddenly appeared in D8... looks like people are beginning to sell with the possibility of increasing prices?

This is just a blip. Cash buyers will run out of cash.

McDook

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

This is just a blip. Cash buyers will run out of cash.

What happens then when people with plenty of money, who do not wish to buy with cash get mortgages to buy that property? There are plenty of well off people who can get a mortgage very easily, and if rent keeps rising and property prices dont rise to meet it, that means more profit for these people.

I remember in the early 90's seeing people buy multiple properties for letting and thinking are they nuts. But they are laughing these days.

Its just part of the cycle. There will probably be another boom time and then a bust again when it comes to property.

My own view is waiting for the next low point might take 10 or 15 years, and then it probably wont even be as low as it is now.
So this might not be the low point now, but if it is, and i missed it I would pay later on.

Ray Palmer

spockety wrote: »

Home ownership in Ireland can only decrease in the way you anticipate if long term renters are given much improved levels of security.

If home ownership is driven down purely on price, and a significant amount of the population find themselves at the mercy of cowboy landlords and having to move every couple of years on their whim, there will be significant social problems (riots potentially).

I think you are mixing up what you would like to happen and reality. In economic terms there is absolutely no reason to improve levels of security. To suggest most landlords are cowboys or it is such a problem is over blowing the situation. Most rentals have no problems.

I have tenants in places over 10 years. They can't afford to buy property and likely never will without a lotto win. Most people don't want any hassle tenant or LL. Changes should be made but they aren't going to happen quickly and the economics are already well underway as lots of people lost their window of opportunity. England has similar laws and somebody working the average wage doesn't expect to own a house in London.

Moomat

How would house hunters feel about buying and living in a house where a family had been evicted by a bank?
There seems to be an increasing number of threats of evictions and I wonder how communities will react to this and their new neighbours if the threats are followed through.

Frank Lee Midere

McDook wrote: »

What happens then when people with plenty of money, who do not wish to buy with cash get mortgages to buy that property? There are plenty of well off people who can get a mortgage very easily, and if rent keeps rising and property prices dont rise to meet it, that means more profit for these people.

I remember in the early 90's seeing people buy multiple properties for letting and thinking are they nuts. But they are laughing these days.

Its just part of the cycle. There will probably be another boom time and then a bust again when it comes to property.

My own view is waiting for the next low point might take 10 or 15 years, and then it probably wont even be as low as it is now.
So this might not be the low point now, but if it is, and i missed it I would pay later on.

Rubbish. The actual stats are simple. About 60% of all properties sold last year were to cash buyers and they there ponied up about 1.2 - 1.4 B assuming about 7K of 12K sales at 200,000 euro. This year they will have to pony up 20% more, or even more again as fewer mortgages will be approved at higher rates. And that's without an increase in supply. This is a mini panicky boom years after the last one.

Frank Lee Midere

Moomat wrote: »

How would house hunters feel about buying and living in a house where a family had been evicted by a bank?
There seems to be an increasing number of threats of evictions and I wonder how communities will react to this and their new neighbours if the threats are followed through.

why would they react any differently than to a new renters replacing older renters who couldn't pay? These boom time buyers have no roots in their communities - they bought where they could afford.

Frank Lee Midere

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I think you are mixing up what you would like to happen and reality. In economic terms there is absolutely no reason to improve levels of security. To suggest most landlords are cowboys or it is such a problem is over blowing the situation. Most rentals have no problems.

I have tenants in places over 10 years. They can't afford to buy property and likely never will without a lotto win. Most people don't want any hassle tenant or LL. Changes should be made but they aren't going to happen quickly and the economics are already well underway as lots of people lost their window of opportunity. England has similar laws and somebody working the average wage doesn't expect to own a house in London.

Eventually house prices will collapse in London too. There was a time when average people could buy houses in London and the UKs house ownership levels were 80%. If a generation of renters begins to have to raise families in rental accommodation they will vote for rental protection or massive house building. That's there. Here, just another bubble. We still have repossessions and normal rates of interest to look forward to - as we are the most indebted nation in Europe that should be interesting.

Moomat

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

These boom time buyers have no roots in their communities

Of course they have roots in their community. In general your ability to pay your mortgage does not have any bearing on your ability to integrate into a community.

Moomat

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

why would they react any differently than to a new renters replacing older renters who couldn't pay?

I'm sure the reaction would be quite the same. My question is what will that reaction be?

liffeylite

Slightly off the recent thread but still on topic...it is interesting that the listings on Daft show Dublin has less properties for sale than 5 other counties in Ireland.

Even Mayo, with a population less than 10% of Dublin, has more homes to buy available....What do people think of this?

handlemaster

liffeylite wrote: »

Slightly off the recent thread but still on topic...it is interesting that the listings on Daft show Dublin has less properties for sale than 5 other counties in Ireland.

Even Mayo, with a population less than 10% of Dublin, has more homes to buy available....What do people think of this?

I think you missed the crash.

lima

Moomat wrote: »

How would house hunters feel about buying and living in a house where a family had been evicted by a bank?
There seems to be an increasing number of threats of evictions and I wonder how communities will react to this and their new neighbours if the threats are followed through.

I would be perfectly fine about purchasing a house form a stranger, and I would not care one bit what their circumstances were. I'd probably get a decent alarm system though just in case they got jealous

handlemaster

Moomat wrote: »

How would house hunters feel about buying and living in a house where a family had been evicted by a bank?
There seems to be an increasing number of threats of evictions and I wonder how communities will react to this and their new neighbours if the threats are followed through.

So a house is sold because the owners can't or won't pay back the money they said they would ? I'd have no problem with it. Its not as if the banks use this as a first option as has been seen in the last 7 yrs. Banks have been reluctant to repossess even in cases where it should have happened year s ago. If you dont pay the mortgage the bank has a right to sell.

SCOOP 64

All back to greed again, people waiting for better offers, some would wait until house would sell at 2007 price, could be a dangerous game to play to turn way buyers ready to go with mortgage approval, who would have thought it would get back to before 2008 so soon.

Frank Lee Midere

Moomat wrote: »

I'm sure the reaction would be quite the same. My question is what will that reaction be?

The reaction will be the same as the massive non-outcry when renters are evicted. Or it should be. Nothing. Obviously with prices increasing renters are being evicted, or leaving when the contract is up and.... Where's the outrage. My brother and his family were evicted before Christmas and were friendly with neighbours. The reaction was... Nothing.

Frank Lee Midere

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

All back to greed again, people waiting for better offers, some would wait until house would sell at 2007 price, could be a dangerous game to play to turn way buyers ready to go with mortgage approval, who would have thought it would get back to before 2008 so soon.

The very house my brother was evicted from - with his family - was put on the market at 2008 prices. It is now not rented out and awaits people able to pay 400k for a house way past the M50. Banks are not lending that kind of mortgage anymore. Maybe he'll get a cash buyer.

liffeylite

handlemaster wrote: »

I think you missed the crash.

The crash was countrywide though, not Dublin exclusive. Mayo crashed with the rest of the country and was afflicted by the same issues.

It is a very strange set of circumstances that leads to less properties marketed for sale in a capital city than there are in a small rural county in the same country.

Kind of like there being more homes for sale in Devon than there are in Greater London.
In fact the population difference between those two counties is lower as a percentage than the difference between Mayo and Dublin.

handlemaster

liffeylite wrote: »

The crash was countrywide though, not Dublin exclusive. Mayo crashed with the rest of the country and was afflicted by the same issues.

It is a very strange set of circumstances that leads to less properties marketed for sale in a capital city than there are in a small rural county in the same country.

Kind of like there being more homes for sale in Devon than there are in Greater London.
In fact the population difference between those two counties is lower as a percentage than the difference between Mayo and Dublin.

Over build in Mayo and no one wants to buy there
Dublin is where the jobs are .. therefore the demand

snakeoilsales

I think people have a right to be depressed... but they should also be angry

The biggest thieves (and scum, toerags, etc) in this country is not the politicians, the banks, the real estate agents, the solictors, or the other greedy parties who had their snout in the trough

No, the real scumbuckets - the lowest form of life - is the mortgage holders who are in arrears and are not paying their mortgages. Let us be clear about this - these are the people that are living in the nice houses that should be on the market, but for reasons I cannot understand the political elite has their back...

These are the people who are talking about debt relief - that everybody should subsidize their good times and their good life.

If you can't pay your mortgage, you should be kicked out on the street.

If this were happening, this thread would not be seeing the light of day.

dinnyirwin

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

All back to greed again, people waiting for better offers, some would wait until house would sell at 2007 price, could be a dangerous game to play to turn way buyers ready to go with mortgage approval, who would have thought it would get back to before 2008 so soon.

Dangerous both ways.
If you can afford to buy the house you want but are waiting for it come come down next year, you might find your priced out of the market this time next year.

Trying to time any market is a fools game for buyer or seller.

snakeoilsales

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Dangerous both ways.
If you can afford to buy the house you want but are waiting for it come come down next year, you might find your priced out of the market this time next year.

Trying to time any market is a fools game for buyer or seller.

This is a psychological game Dinny... and the media is contributing to a sense of panic...

dinnyirwin

liffeylite wrote: »

The crash was countrywide though, not Dublin exclusive. Mayo crashed with the rest of the country and was afflicted by the same issues.

It is a very strange set of circumstances that leads to less properties marketed for sale in a capital city than there are in a small rural county in the same country.

Kind of like there being more homes for sale in Devon than there are in Greater London.
In fact the population difference between those two counties is lower as a percentage than the difference between Mayo and Dublin.

Mass emigration from rural areas to Dublin.
People seem to be preoccupied with the emigration from Ireland, but seem to forget about the flight of people to Dublin from rural areas.
Houses are left empty in MAyo while those people are arrive to take up the houses in Dublin.

liffeylite

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Mass emigration from rural areas to Dublin.
People seem to be preoccupied with the emigration from Ireland, but seem to forget about the flight of people to Dublin from rural areas.
Houses are left empty in MAyo while those people are arrive to take up the houses in Dublin.

Yes I think you make a good point here.

I tried to see the CSO population stats for 2013 as a breakdown by county because it would be interesting to see just how much internal migration to Dublin has taken place.

Its too easy to gloss over the issue just by saying everyone has emigrated.
internal migration also plays a part and it would be interesting to see figures on this.

Frank Lee Midere

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Dangerous both ways.
If you can afford to buy the house you want but are waiting for it come come down next year, you might find your priced out of the market this time next year.

Trying to time any market is a fools game for buyer or seller.

Those of you who think people will be priced out of the market next year if they don't get in now. 2006 called. It wants it's property hysteria back.

Frank Lee Midere

liffeylite wrote: »

Yes I think you make a good point here.

I tried to see the CSO population stats for 2013 as a breakdown by county because it would be interesting to see just how much internal migration to Dublin has taken place.

Its too easy to gloss over the issue just by saying everyone has emigrated.
internal migration also plays a part and it would be interesting to see figures on this.

We'll nobody does those figures. You are right about the number of properties for sale in Dublin though. The solution is repossession.

dinnyirwin

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Those of you who think people will be priced out of the market next year if they don't get in now. 2006 called. It wants it's property hysteria back.

I never said that someone will be definitely priced out of the market next year.
I said they might. So if they want to be sure that they can buy what they want, if they are ready now, then consider their options quickly. Things may be different next year.

To know for sure what will happen next year I would need a crystal ball. And so would you. Except I am aware that I dont know. You dont seem to be aware at all of your lack of a crystal ball.

Consider my sister and her husband who were about to buy a house 18 months ago. Had an offer accepted too. They had second thoughts and decided to wait another while. Well that house went for higher than they offered by about €30k. This year they are still looking and the house next door is asking €50k more now. So now if they want to bid on it they can try bidding the same as was accepted on the other house before but havent got the buying power to bid any higher if its rejected. They now have to lower their expectations.

Things might have gone the way they held out for, but they didnt. Now their options are more limited, when they could have made sure last year.

Ray Palmer

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Eventually house prices will collapse in London too. There was a time when average people could buy houses in London and the UKs house ownership levels were 80%. If a generation of renters begins to have to raise families in rental accommodation they will vote for rental protection or massive house building. That's there. Here, just another bubble. We still have repossessions and normal rates of interest to look forward to - as we are the most indebted nation in Europe that should be interesting.

Why will it that happen? There was a time people on average salaries could buy property in lots of places. There comes a time that is no longer possible and it doesn't reverse. That happens. The privatisation of public housing started in the 80s which meant state funding subsidy for average and lower paid can no longer own in the capital similar in Paris, New York and other capitals with an established private market. Rent controls do not make ownership easier. It is also being removed. The state no longer build social housing
You do get a generational change takes a long time. To have an impact that generation will need to be a large portion of the population and political will and power. This will and power will have to challenge the free market, political people with property and a well funded opposition.
Again you seem to be stating a wish not an economic reality. You aren't giving economic reasoning but projecting how people will react and what that will do. That's wishful thinking and ignoring where this has already played out and expecting a different outcome.
It isn't I wish this to happen it is as we become more international we will react like the rest of the world. This has already been played out so the most likely outcome is very visible.

cerastes

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

We'll nobody does those figures. You are right about the number of properties for sale in Dublin though. The solution is repossession.

So when you repossess those houses, where do the people that were in them then go? the problem seems to have just been shifted, as they are then going to have to move somewhere, probably withing reason if they still have work/children in education commitments. People are saying in other threads there is already an undersupply of rented accomodation, so where will these people go? just somewhere else??? in some extreme examples Id say i agree.

lima

cerastes wrote: »

So when you repossess those houses, where do the people that were in them then go? the problem seems to have just been shifted, as they are then going to have to move somewhere, probably withing reason if they still have work/children in education commitments. People are saying in other threads there is already an undersupply of rented accomodation, so where will these people go? just somewhere else??? in some extreme examples Id say i agree.

I for one do not care one bit where they go. That's their problem. They should have planned for something like this. They can move in with relatives or live in a tent for all I care.