Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory

dublinviking

In mountains of Serbia, in the 20th century, peasants carried with them a year stick. It was a stick with a notch for every day and a cross for major holy days, which in Serbia are all linked to major agricultural events. Every day that was gone was cut off from the stick. Very simple way to track time. But to do this effectively, you need to know:

1. when does the year start
2. how many full moons there are in a year
3. how many days there are in a moon
4. how many full extra days there are after the end of the last full moon

Once you know this, you can make the your stick calendar.

How do you determine all the above? First you realize that there is a day and a night. And that as each night passes, moon changes. Then one night moon become full. You start marking the full moons "u štap" together with the number of nights between full moons. You realize that there is a cycle. 28 or 29 days cycle of moon changing. You start calling this period moon (mesec in Serbian). At the same time you notice that the sun is changing in a longer cycle. It gets higher over the horizon and hotter and then lower and colder. So You find a level place from where you can observe the sunrise and sunset all year round. You then use a stick, a post and stick it into the ground. Then you use a rope and another stick to mark a circle around the central post. You use the center of the circle as a static observation point. You build a circular rampart using sticks, stakes to mark the circle's edge. You observe the sunrise movement, and when it stops moving in the winter you mark the point on the rampart with a really tall stick. Or you make a gate, the sun gate. You can do that in the winter solstice. Now you have your year starting point. You connect the center of the circle with the point of the solstice by drawing a line, a time line. Then from the winter solstice starting point, you count number of days in a moon, and you mark it "u štap" in a stick. You can do this by cutting notches into a stick or by placing a stick in line along the line of time. The last "u štap", full moon before the winter solstice marker, tells you how many moons there are in a year. Then you have dead days until the winter solstice. These are the days where everyone is at the sun circle, celebrating the sun turning. These are still taboo days in Serbia. You count these days as well. You can mark the whole thing with circular or linear stakes, and later stones, so you don't forget it. Then you cut your calendar stick and everyone goes away until the end of the stick (year) when they all come back to get the new calendar.

Here is one of those sun circles, Goseck in Germany:





In Serbia there is identical sun circle which is located in plateau called "Bogovo gumno":








The inside of the circle is completely cleared of stones. There are no meadow flowers growing inside of the circle which are abundant outside of the circle. The center of the circle is marked with old anthropomorphic cross:



The whole locality has never been excavated??? Just in case you think Irish archaeological localities are neglected.

By the way the name of the place tells you what the place was used for: "bogovo gumno". Bog means god. Gumno is a threshing floor, like this one:



Or this one:



Or this one in use:



and this one in use. look at the tools these people use to handle hay:



This film is from 1989 from Croatia, when people still used gumno to thresh the wheat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqx5AtZ9lRo

Have a look at these pictures (click next...) from Croatia, showing people in traditional clothing reenacting the harvest procedure on gumno:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/59058448

There are thousands of these stone circles all over the Balkans. Every village and sometimes every house had one. Sometimes they are made of stone, where stone was plentiful, but sometimes they were just a flat piece of land with a stick stack into the middle of it. Just type in gumno into google.


The central stake of "gumno" is called "stožer" in Serbian. A hay stack, or wheat stack is called "stog".



stožer = stog + ger, gar = stack + pole

these are neolithic sickles ("srp" in Serbian):





This is a "modern" one:



Compare them with the moon calendar from Serbia. The same shape. And the shape of a young moon.

Gumno (circle, sun), stožer (pole, axis), srp (crescent, moon) are the most important symbols of of astronomy, time keeping and agriculture. Is it surprising that the harvest tools are used as astronomical tools, when we know how important knowing the right time of the year is for wheat farmers? Stone circles only much later became fortifications...


Two articles related to bogovo gumno circles in Serbian with few more (unexcavated) stone circles:

http://www.staroverci.si/planina-devica.html
http://srbinside.blog.rs/blog/srbinside/zanimljivosti/2013/01/20/krugovi-na-planini-devici-drevna-opservatorija

dublinviking

This is a folk riddle from Serbia:

Na hrastu, dvanaest grana
Na dvanaest grana pedeset dva gnezda,
U svakom gnezdu, po sedam jaja...

Question: "On an oak tree, twelve branches
On twelve branches, fifty two nests
In every nest seven eggs"

Answer: Year

Oak was the sacred tree of the sun and thunder.

This riddle is very similar to this passage from Rig Veda:

"The wheel of law with twelve spokes does not decay as it revolves around heaven. Oh Fire (Agni), here your 720 sons abide (360 days and 360 nights)."

dublinviking

I did say i was not going to write here again, but i have something important that i really think i need to share with you guys. First to reply to bawn79. Thank you very much for posting these links. Here is one from me:

http://heritagecouncil.ie/unpublished_excavations/section10.html

Have a look at the position of the "st John's" well inside the Dún Ailinne and the buried scull in Raffin, relative to the center of the circle. Isn't this the same angle off north? What angle is this?


Apparently Dún Ailinne was only used during spring and summer. Large bonfire was lit up in the center of Dún Ailinne, probably on summer solstice, as it is custom everywhere else in Europe, and which is still done on "St John's" day.

In 1968 a caesium magnetometer survey and a resistivity survey was undertaken that highlighted an area in the low mound, later revealed as areas of intense burning. The excavated areas revealed only minimal traces of human activity except in the area around the low mound where black soil, burnt stone, charcoal and animal bone were uncovered. The artefacts suggested intense activity in the Iron Age and/or Early Medieval period that disturbed a Neolithic occupation phase.

It was obviously ceremonial astronomical center related to the worship of the sun, and determining the summer solstice date.

look at the name of the forth: Dún Ailinne. What does it mean?

Croagh Patrick comes from the Irish Cruach Phádraig meaning "(Saint) Patrick's stack". It is known locally as "the Reek", a Hiberno-English word for a "rick" or "stack".[3] In pagan times it was known as Cruachán Aigle, being mentioned by that name in sources such as Cath Maige Tuired,[4] Buile Shuibhne,[5] The Metrical Dindshenchas,[6] and the Annals of Ulster entry for the year 1113.[7] Cruachán is simply a diminutive of cruach "stack", but it is not certain what Aigle means. It is either from the Latin loan aquila "eagle" (more usually aicile or acaile)[8] or a person's name.[6][9] In addition to its literal meaning, cruach in the pagan name may also have some connection with Crom Cruach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croagh_Patrick


Remember the rolling sun on Cruachán Aigle?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87450395&postcount=36

Dún Ailinne, Cruachán Aigle....Sun circle, Sun mountain...

cruach means stack. Stack. Stog in Serbian. Stog, stack, cruach has circular base. In Serbian krug is circle, kruh is bread, round baked stack of wheat. Crom Cruach was related to the harvest and ultimately bread, circular stack of wheat, krug, kruh...In Serbian word for circle is krug, but word for circular is kružan (pronounced kruzshan). Bread oven is krušna peć (pronounced krushna petj). Cruachán Aigle. Is it possible that Cruachán here means krugan, kružan, krušan meaning circular?

Croaghaun (Irish: Cruachán) is a mountain in County Mayo, Ireland. At 688 metres (2,257 ft), it has the highest sea cliffs in Ireland and Great Britain[2] as well as the third highest sea cliffs in Europe (after Hornelen, Norway and Cape Enniberg, Faroe Islands).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croaghaun

Croaghan Hill Hill Cruachán Donegal. Excavations or vandalisim on the ancient summit cairn of Croaghan Hill

Cross yet another fence and walk out SW across the heather for approximately 100 metres to the trig pillar set atop a small grass and heather covered mound at H2993897466 (Point F), shown on the OS map as an ancient Hill Fort and Cairn. Part of the mound has been dug out either as part of an exploratory excavation or by vandalisim. There are excellent views SE across Strabane to Bessy Bell and the Sperrins and to the N and W the hills of South Donegal.

http://mountainviews.ie/summit/1028/

Why are all these summits called crugan, circular? Because they have 360 degrees circular view of the horizon and the sun, the great golden, white, bright circle in the sky.




http://tinyurl.com/mjp33v5

One of many solar breads from Serbia, which is today called "krsni" meaning cross, Christ bread.



Original solar "kruh", krug, circle bread baked on and under a stone. It is a familiar "celtic" solar cross. The year divided into four parts by equinoxes and solstices.



This is the calendar bread, year bread, sun bread, "god" bread as in Serbian god meaning tree ring, year, time, moment...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85550404&postcount=108

In parts of Scotland, the Beltane bannock is a popular custom. It's said that if you eat one on Beltane morning, you'll be guaranteed abundance for your crops and livestock. Traditionally, the bannock is made with animal fat (such as bacon grease), and it is placed in a pile of embers, on top of a stone, to cook in the fire. Once it's blackened on both sides, it can be removed, and eaten with a blend of eggs and milk. This recipe doesn't require you to build a fire, and you can use butter instead of fat.

In Serbian and in Irish Ban, Van means white, bright. In Serbian svan = s van means with whiteness, with brighteness = light. Svanuti = S Van uti = with white (light) be = to dawn, to get bright, to get white. Svanuće = Dawn

In Serbian mater is the equivalent of the English word mother or Sanskrit Matr.

Materisvan = Materi svan = the mother of light - the giver of birth to light, the one who produced light, who gives life. This producer of light is fire, Agni, both celestial, sun fire, and terrestrial, human fire, and so Matarisvan is Agni. But also the producer of fire is the producer of light by extension. So Matarisvan is the heavenly swastika, Slavic Svarog, that produces the fire of the sun. Matarisvan is also the lightning, the fire bird (žar ptica), the East Slavic (Russian) Bird Mater sva, that brought the fire from heavens to Earth and gave it to people....And in the end Matarisvan is the man who produced fire using terrestrial swastika, fire drill. In some vedic translations Matarisvan is called MItariswan or Mitarisvan. In Serbian Dar is a present, dariti, darivati is to give present. Mi means to me. Svan means light. So Mitarisvan = Mi dari svan = the one who gives me light (as present). So the meaning of the name stays unchanged.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88133615&postcount=218

Bannok is the sun, light bread, the equivalent of the solar bread in Serbia. It was made and eaten on Beltane, the start of summer.

Croghan Hill is the remains of an extinct volcano [1] of the Carboniferous period and rises from the Bog of Allen in the midlands of Ireland in County Offaly. Though only 234 m high[1] it commands extensive views of the surrounding midland counties, across the flat, low-lying expanse of the Bog of Allen. The village of Croghan is located on the southern slope of the hill.

The mound at the summit is thought to be a bronze age burial place. It is believed that a Bishop MacCaille had his church there and lived around the time of St Patrick in the fifth century. The area also has strong associations with St. Bridget, who is said to have been born near Croghan hill. In pre-Christian times, Brigid as Brig, Bree or Bri was also associated with the Hill, and the inside believed to be a magic underworld called Bri Ele.[2] Seen from Uisnech, the pointed summit coincides with the midwinter sunrise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croghan_Hill

This is the picture of Croghan hill (circular, of circles) hill:



http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/358042

Does anyone have any doubts that Croghan, Cruachán comes from krugan, circular?

The Hill of Uisneach or Ushnagh (Irish: Uisneach or Cnoc Uisnigh)[1] is an ancient ceremonial site in the Barony of Rathconrath in County Westmeath, Ireland (National Monument Number 155).[2] In Irish mythology it is the centre of Ireland...In Irish mythology, the Ail na Míreann or "stone of divisions" was deemed to be the omphalos or mystical navel of Ireland and to have marked the meeting point of the borders of Leinster, Munster, Connacht, Ulster and Meath. Tradition tells that Bealtaine fires were lit and Druidical ceremonies held on the hill. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn (Book of the Takings of Ireland), the Nemedian Druid Mide lit the first Bealtaine fire there. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Uisneach

This is the center of the solar cult. Stožer, stog ger, the axes of heaven...

Beltane or Beltain /ˈbɛlteɪn/ (also Beltine or Beltaine)[1] is the Gaelic May Day festival. Most commonly it is held on 30 April–1 May, or halfway between the spring equinox and the summer solstice. It was observed in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. In Irish it is Bealtaine ([ˈbʲal̪ˠt̪ˠənʲə]), in Scottish Gaelic Bealltainn ([ˈpjaul̪ˠt̪ˠɪɲ]) and in Manx Gaelic Boaltinn or Boaldyn. It is one of the four Gaelic seasonal festivals; along with Samhain, Imbolc and Lughnasadh....
In Irish Gaelic, the festival is usually called Lá Bealtaine ("day of Beltane") while the month of May is Mí Bhealtaine ("month of Beltane"). In Scottish Gaelic, the month is called (An) Cèitean or a' Mhàigh, and the festival is Latha Bealltainn. Sometimes the older Scottish Gaelic spelling Bealltuinn is used. The word Céitean comes from Céad Shamhain, an old alternative name for the festival.
In modern Scottish Gaelic, Latha Buidhe Bealltainn or Là Buidhe Bealltainn ("the yellow day of Beltane") is used to describe the first day of May. This term Lá Buidhe Bealtaine is also used in Irish and is translated as "Bright May Day". In Ireland it is referred to in a common folk tale as Luan Lae Bealtaine; the first day of the week (Monday/Luan) is added to emphasize the first day of summer....
Since the early 20th century it has been commonly accepted that Old Irish Beltaine is derived from a Common Celtic *belo-te(p)niâ, meaning "bright fire". The element *belo- might be cognate with the English word bale (as in 'bale-fire') meaning 'white' or 'shining'; compare Old English bael, and Lithuanian/Latvian baltas/balts, found in the name of the Baltic; in Slavic languages byelo or beloye also means 'white', as in Беларусь (White Russia or Belarus) or Бе́лое мо́ре (White Sea).
In Ó Duinnín's Irish dictionary (1904), Beltane is referred to as Céadamh(ain) which it explains is short for Céad-shamh(ain) meaning "first (of) summer". The dictionary also states that Dia Céadamhan is May Day and Mí Céadamhan is the month of May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane

But was Beltane, the day when bonfires are lit and bannok sun bread is made in them and eaten, always the first of may or was it originally celebrated on the summer solstice day? Bel comes from Serbian and means white, the same way ban means white. Tinja also comes from serbian and means kindling fire.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86150789&postcount=173

Beltane could be bel tinja mean white, bright fire. But there is another possibility. I already talked about interchangeability of b and v sounds. You can see it in ban, van. Also sounds t and d are interchangeable. In Serbian Bel means white, but Vel means great, big, long. So beltane could be veldan meaning vel + dan = great, big, long + day. Which day is the great day? The summer solstice, the longest day of the year.

Now if Cruachán in Cruachán Aigle is circular, what is then Aigle in Cruachán Aigle and what is Ailinne in Dún Ailinne?

I believe that these words both contain old root word Ai related to white, bright, sun, circle, stone, high, sky. This root is the root of words such as sky and high.

Long before St Patrick’s visit in 441, the Reek was known by its ancient name of Cruachán Aigli.The area around the mountain was known in Irish as ‘Aigli’.The village of Murrisk was referred to as ‘Muiresc Aigli’...

I believe that the word Aigle is ai + gle, gli = ai + look, observe (in Serbian). Basically Cruachán Aigle means the place marked with stone where i have circular view of the sky and can observe the sun, light and calculate time, calendar.

Dún Ailinne means circle of the sky, sun, time, calendar. It comes from ai + linn:

Have a look at these words from these two old Irish dictionaries and let me know what you think. Are we onto something here?

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/index.html
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/Dinneen1.pdf

ai - sheep, swan (white things)
ailbh, -e, -eacha, f., a flock.
ailbhín, g. id., pl. -idhe, m., a small flock; cf., ailbhín caorach, a small flock of sheep; see deilbhín and eilbhín. ailt - stately, high; Irish ailt, Latin altus, àilt (H.S.D.).
áigh, a., valiant, victorious, fateful (prop. gs. of ágh, valour, fate); cf., Oscar Áigh, the valorous Oscar. (on top, the highest)aicme, g. id., pl. -eacha, f., a sort or kind, a class, a race, a tribe.
aicne, g. aicionta, f., nature; a race or tribe (a form of aicme).
ail, aileadh, ailt - a mark, impression, Irish oil, mark (O'R), Middle and Early Irish aile, fence, boundary (Meyer). A t stem: oiledaib, *al-et.
++ail - rock, Irish and Old Irish ail, *alek-, allied to German fels; See further under mac-talla.
aill, -e, pl. id., and ailltreacha (Aran), f., a cliff, a rock; cf., an Áill, the "Naul" Co. Dublin (also faill, f., bárr na faille, the top of the cliff).
ailp, -e, pl. alpa, ailpeacha, f., a protuberance, a huge lump, a high mountain; a stout person; a bite, a mouthful; a bite of a vicious dog or horseaibhle, g. id., pl. -eacha, f., a flying spark of fire.
aibhleog, -oige, -oga, f., a piece of burning fuel, a burning sod of turf; dóigheadh 'na aibhleoig
í, she was burned to a cinder (Don.); a snow-flake. áibhe, interj., ave! hail! (ai + bhe, be = first + be, high + be)aibheil - huge (M`E.). See adhbhal. (ai + bheil = high + is)
aibheis - boasting; aibhsich, esaggerate; Irish aibhseach, boasting: from aibheis? Another form of aibhsich is aillsich. (ai + bheis = high + be)
aidhbhéileach, -lighe, a., very great, wondrous; bragging, boasting.
aidhbhéileacht, -a, f., a boasting, wonder; hugeness, enormity.
aibhist - an old ruin (Stew.): (ai + bhist = high, sky + be + stand)
aibhistear - the Devil; another form of abharsair, q.v. (old sun god which became devil)
aillse, g. id., pl. -acha, f., a fairy, any diminutive creature, a chafer, worm: cf., "ní lugha orm aillseacha ciaróg ná thú."
aibhse - spectre, so Irish: See taibhse.
aice - proximity, Irish aice; See taic.(close to god, sun, high up) aice,immediate vicinity, proximity; i n-a aice, close by him; i n-aice an bhaile, near the
village; i n-aice liom, i m'aice, beside me; also i n-aice dam, near me (M.); i n-aice le Máigh, beside the Mague; as aice an tighe, from the vicinity of the house; i n-aice na gcoillte, beside
the woods; capall aice, a horse led by one's side; is forus fuineadh i n-aice na mine, it is easy to bake when one has meal at hand.
aig - at, Irish ag, Old Irish oc; for root, See agus. (at the top, high, near the sky) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aig
ailbheag - ring; See failbhe.
ailbhinn - flint, precipice; from ++ail, rock.
àile - air, scent, Early Irish aél, ahél; Welsh avel, Cornish, Breton, awel, wind; Greek @Ga@'élla (St. Lec.), storm; *avel-, root ave, ve, wind; Latin au-ra, Greek @Ga@'c/r, English air.
ailleort - high-rocked; from ++ail, rock; See mac-talla.
aill-bhruachach, -aighe, a., having steep or rocky brinks.
ailleadóir, -óra, -óiridhe, m., a cliff-climber.
ailm - the letter A, elm; Irish ailm, palm (fir?) tree, letter A; borrowed from Latin ulmus, Norse álmr, English elm.
aimsir - time, so Irish; Old Irish amser, Welsh amser, Breton amzer, possibly a Celtic ammesserâ; either a compound of am, time (ammensîrâ, from sîr, long?), or amb-mensura, root mens, measure, Latin mensus, English measure. Ascoli and Stokes give the Celtic as ád-messera, from ad-mensura.
àin - heat (Dict.), light (H.M`Lean), Old Irish áne, fulgor, from án, splendidus, latter a Celtic a@-no-s; Gothic fôn, fire (from pân); Prussian panno. Stokes suggests rather *agno-s, allied to Latin ignis, Sanskrit agní, fire.
ainbhtheach - stormy, Middle Irish ainbthech, *an-feth-ech, Gaelic rott feth, breeze, from vet, English weather, Latin ventus, etc. See ++anfadh.

aiceacht (aith-cheacht), -a, f., a lesson; guidance. See ceacht
aidheam - joyous carol:
aidich - confess, Irish admhuighim, Old Irish addaimim, Welsh addef: ad-dam-; root dam; Latin domo, English tame.
aifrionn - mass, so Irish, Early Irish oifrend, Welsh offeren; from Latin offerendum (English offer).
aigeannach - spirited, Early Irish aignech; See aigneadh. Irish aigeanta, meditative.
aighear - mirth, Manx aigher; *ati-gar-; See gàirdeachas for root. Yet Irish aiereach, merry, aerial, from aier, air, from Latin aer, makes the matter doubtful. Irish aerach (Hyde), merry, airy. Evidently the Gaelic is borrowed from the Latin
aigne, aigneadh - mind, so Irish, Old Irish, aicned: ád-gn-eto-, root gna@-, know, Greek @Ggignw/skw, English know. Stokes refers it to the root of ++aicme, as he gives it. Ascoli makes the root cen, as in cineal. The Gaelic g is against any root with c.

àil - will; better àill, q.v.
àill - desire, so Irish, Old Irish áil, Welsh ewyll, Breton ioul, Celtic avillo-; root av, desire, Latin aveo, English avidity. áil, pleasant, *pagli, English fair ( St. Bez.@+20 24). (top, climax)
áilgheas, -a, m., great pleasure or desire.
áilgheasach, -aighe, a., full of desire, eager, zealous. (basically i have a tall, high di*k, i have a hard on )àille - beauty, Early Irish álde, for álnde; See àlainn.
áilleacht, -a, f., beauty, loveliness (also áilneacht).
àilleas, àilgheas - will, desire; Irish áilgheas, Early Irish ailges, áilgidim, I desire; from áil and geas, request, q.v.
àilleagan - darling, so Irish; from àille, q.v.

áilleagán, -áin, pl. id., m., a toy, gewgaw, frippery; áilleagán inntreach, a merry-go-round (somet. áilleachán). (from ai + lleagán = top, pinacle, same spot + lays, stands = what stands on top. Legati means lay down in Serbian)
áilleagánacht, -a, f., idling, lolling about (Mayo). (laying, sitting, standing in the same spot, not moving)

glinn - pretty, (Strathspey and Lochbroom Dialects for grinn), Irish glinn, bright; English glint, gleam, glance.
glé, indec. a., clear, bright, pure, perfect; open, plain, manifest.
glé- an intensive prefix, very, enough, truly, perfect (chiefly Sc.).
gléacht, -a, f., brightness, clearness.
gléaghlan, -aine, a., pure, clean,
gléamhaise, g. id., f., neatness, beauty.
gléamhaiseach, -sighe, a., beautiful. glé-gheal, -ghile, a., very bright, clear, white, beautiful (also gléigeal and glégeal).
gléghileacht, -a, f., pureness, whiteness. gléineach, -nighe, a., clear, plain, distinct; chím go gléineach é, I see it distinctly.
gléir, -e, a., neat, clean, fair, clear, bright.
gléithe, g. id., f., purity, cleanness, neatness.
glé-mhian, f., clear intellect. glinn, -e, a., pure, clear; manifest, plain, visible; also sharp, keen, shrewd, clear-sighted; duine
glinn, a sharp or shrewd man; glinn-bhreathnuightheach, clear or sharp-sighted.
glinn, -e, -te, f., the firmament, the heavens; d'eiteall sé in nglinntibh an aeir, it flew into the air;
the tolling of a bell (O'N.).
glinn, -e, -idhe, f., the frame on which a fishing or measuring line is folded; nom. also glinne,
and glionnda in Sligo.
glinneamhain, -mhna, f., act of investigating, examining closely; gazing on fixedly; manifesting;
glinnim, I aim (B.).

linn, g. linne, pl. linnte, linntidhe, f. (definite) time, period, generation, course; ré linn, at the
time of, during the lifetime of; le n-a linn, in his time; le n-a linn sin, at that time, just then; le
linn na huaire sin, during the course of that time.

dublinviking

In recent years Anthony Murphy and
Richard Moore wrote a book titled, Island
of the Setting Sun: In Search of Ireland’s Ancient
Astronomers. Their theory is that Croagh
Patrick is part of an ancient cosmological
alignment, stretching 135m (217km) from
the Hill of Slane, in the east, to Croagh
Patrick in the west, linking some of the most
sacred sites associated with St Patrick.The
authors explore the idea that St Patrick
followed a ‘sacred equinox journey’. Using
Google Earth, they found that the equinox
line extends from Millmount, Drogheda,
County Louth, to Slane and aligns west with
Croagh Patrick. It includes the CruachanAí
complex in Roscommon (home of
legendary Queen Medb and inauguration
and burial site of the ancient kings of
Connacht) and follows the ancient pilgrim
road of Tóchar Phádraig, which passes by
the Rock of Boheh, mentioned below. They
stated that ‘evidence is emerging that
signicant archaeological sites dating from
deep in prehistory are linked – not just
through mythology, archaeology and
cosmology – but through an arrangement of
complex, and, in some cases, astonishing
alignments.’

http://tinyurl.com/lwlodvu

CruachanAí = Cruachan + Aí = circle of heaven = calendar

Rathcroghan (Irish: Ráth Cruachan, meaning "ringfort of Cruachan") is a complex of archaeological sites near Tulsk in County Roscommon, Ireland. It is identified as the site of Cruachan, the traditional capital of the Connachta. While it is debatable whether this was a place of residence, it had huge importance as a cemetery and also hosted some of the main ritual gatherings in ancient times. It is an important site in Irish mythology, in particular as the seat of Ailill and Medb, king and queen of the Connachta in the Ulster Cycle. It is the setting for the opening section of the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Táin Bó Flidhais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathcroghan

bawn79

dublinviking wrote: »

[url]



http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/358042

This is the picture of Croghan hill (circular, of circles) hill:

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This is Rathra rather than Croghan hill. Its far to the east of the Rathcroghan complex but is thought to be related.

Dublinviking - you have plenty of material but I suppose in one sound bite what are you trying to say? (I'm interested in your posts but I suppose what are you trying to show us?)

dublinviking

bawn79

Thanks for pointing this out. Here is the picture of Rathcroghan main mound.



What I am trying to tell you guys is that there are several genetic, cultural and linguistic layers in Ireland and in Serbia. One of them is R1a and then there is I1 + I2 layer. These layers can be decoded through Serbian and Irish parallels.

From the archeo astronomy point of view, if you want to understand the ancient astronomical observatories, you need to understand that they are tightly linked to agriculture and people who brought it to Ireland. And they came from the Balkans (to which they came from somewhere else or originated there, but that is not important for the discussion). They came to Ireland and brought their agriculture, astronomy and language. Serbs and Irish preserved some of those oldest cultural traits in Europe and we have a chance to dig them out. The example is word Cruach, Cruachán which can only be fully understood through Serbian, because this is where you find the link between the circle, bread and calendar. And then this opens the door for understanding a lot of things in Irish mythology.

For instance if ai means high who was Ailill, the king of Rathcroghan? Sun? Illi is one of the old names of god.

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull God"). He is bātnyu binwāti ("Creator of creatures"), ’abū banī ’ili ("father of the Gods")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Jesus Cries Out to the Father

Matthew 27:46 (also Mark 15:34)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (NKJV)
In the darkest hours of his suffering, Jesus cried out the opening words of Psalm 22. And although much has been suggested regarding the meaning of this phrase, it was quite apparent the agony Christ felt as he expressed separation from God. Here we see the Father turning way from the Son as Jesus bore the full weight of our sin.

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/qt/sevenlastwords.htm

By the time of Christ the Savior Ancient Hebrew, in which the Law and the majority of the rest books of the Old Testament are written, was already a dead language. The Jewish population of Palestine was speaking the language, common for that time for the Semitic tribes of Front Asia — Aramaic. Christ the Savior spoke that language as well. Those little worlds of Christ, which the Evangelists cite literally: "Talitha cumi" (Mark 5:41), "Abba," when the Lord addressed God the Father (Mark 5:41), the mortal howl of the Lord on the cross: "Eloi, Eloi, lama Sabachtani" (Mark 15:34) — these Aramaic words (in the Gospel of Mathew the words "Eloi, Eloi" — My God, My God) — are given in Ancient Hebrew "Ili, Ili," but the second part in both the Gospels is given in Aramaic.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/bible2/language.shtml

Who is this Ili Eli god? Ilios - sun, crom dubh, hromi daba, dabog, dagda...But where does Ilios come from? AiLios - The fairy circle in the sky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_fort

Now the question is: how the hell is all this possible? Because people who gave us Illios the sun god of the heavenly circle, once lived in the Balkans, and then came to Ireland, or once lived in Ireland and then came to the Balkans. Or most likely, once lived in the Balkans, went to Ireland then came back to the Balkans within the space of few thousand years.

Look at the word Alba, Alban, Albania, Alps? Where do they come from? From the most ancient Serbo - Irish = European language.

Ai - high
Ail (Ai + le) - tall, high rock, mountain top
Ba, Va - white color, shiny
Ban, Van - who, what is white, shiny
Ail + Ban - white mountain tops

Alba - Scotland full of snowy mountain tops
Albania - full of snowy mountain tops
Alps (Alpen) - full of snowy mountain tops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba

In Latin Alba means white too:

From Proto-Italic *alβos, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂élbʰos, *álbʰos, *albʰós (“white”). Cognates include Umbrian (alfu), Ancient Greek ἀλφός (alphos, “whiteness, white leprosy”), Hittite (alpas, “cloud”) and Middle Welsh elbid (“world”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/albus#Latin

Look at the Hittite (alpas, “cloud”) from high (ai) white (ba, pa). Remember the direct cultural link between Ireland, Serbia and Hitties? Remember Mushki, opanak, the king with goat's ears? This language is older than Hittite empire...

And then it is not surprising that in Latin the word Albus has no root. It can not be broken like it can in Irish. Which means it is older than Latin and was brought into Latin from some other language, which eventually arrived to Ireland, or originated from Ireland....If you read early Roman history, Italy was a mix of people and languages. Latin is a bastard language.


I am having fun doing it on my own, but every time someone joins in, like you did with the posts about Dún Ailinne, he brings something in that I did not see, or think about, and that is great help. I have been wrecking my brain for months about the meaning of Aigle in Cruachán Aigle. And then you sent the texts about Dún Ailinne and everything just clicked together. For that i am very grateful.

I hope this is a clear enough answer.

dublinviking

people who lived in the Balkans before Rome even existed, in south of Italy when Rome was being created, and who, according to some historians came to Ireland and England, were Illyrians, whose center was in I2 teritory of the Balkans. They were great ship builders, and pirates. They fought Rome for a long time but then became the official Roman navy. Their boats are predecessors of the Viking boats....One funny thing about them is that there is a great confusion where they stop and where Celts start...

slowburner

I have a vague memory of the term Croghan/Croagh being associated with a loaf of bread before, but I can't find anything to support it.

This might be of some interest though.

'The primary meaning of cruach is a rick or stack, such as of corn or hay;
but in an extended sense, it is applied to hills, especially those presenting a round, stacked, or piled up appearance;
Welsh crug, a heap; Cornish cruc.
It is used pretty extensively as a local term, generally in the forms
Croagh or Crogh; and the diminutive Croghán is still more common,
giving names to numerous mountains, townlands, and parishes, called Croaghan, Croaghaun, Croghan and Crohane, all originally applied to a round shaped hill.'

Joyce, P.W. 1910. The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places, Vol. 1. Dublin. pp. 388

bawn79

So just trying to take from the above

Is the argument that a large group of Serbians brought their astronomy, agriculture and language to Ireland?

What date are you proposing this happened?

Does this not ignore all the megalithic sites in Greece, Italy, Malta, France, Spain & Portugal in between?

randomperson12

k they where some kind of isolated celtic ppl with ringofts yyaya more achaeolgy

cfuserkildare

OKay,

In the spirit of good sportsmanship,
Have any Universities seriously looked into this?
Also, how would Warren Field,Crathes fit into this theory, age wise?

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

bawn79

Thanks for pointing this out. Here is the picture of Rathcroghan main mound.



What I am trying to tell you guys is that there are several genetic, cultural and linguistic layers in Ireland and in Serbia. One of them is R1a and then there is I1 + I2 layer. These layers can be decoded through Serbian and Irish parallels.

How so? I2 is 15,000 years old or so and has many subgroups.

dublinviking

Is the argument that a large group of Serbians brought their astronomy, agriculture and language to Ireland?

No. The arguments is that the large group of R1a, or I2 early megalithic farmers came from the Balkans up north and ended up in Ireland where they also brought their astronomy and their language. There were many other migrations from central Europe to the Atlantic coast before and later. But this is the one that brought megalithic krug (circle) monuments to Ireland. This language of these early agriculturalists is preserved in oldest layers of Serbian and Irish and other European languages, but i just happened to start discovering it through intersections of Irish and Serbian. One of the reason why Ireland and Britain have preserved some of the oldest traits of this old language, is because they have some of the oldest R1a and I2 populations in the world, which has been isolated from the center of the culture for millenniums, as so stayed conservative.

You can call these people Serbs, or Irish, they are equally both.

Have any Universities seriously looked into this?

No. This is why i invited every university professor, every academic i could get the contact details from to my "Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture" thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056938477

I was hoping that people will become interested and will start to seriously look into these things. And exchange their knowledge. But maybe i am too optimistic. Old ideas such as Serbs are only Slavic, Irish are only Celtic and before them aliens lived in their lands...are too entrenched, and too many academics made their careers on elaborating these same outdated ideas. We see how mixed people are, we see how different genetic types are of different origin and age. Why is it so crazy to imagine that ancient tribes, people would be linked to particular genes? This is what tribe is, a patriarchal family, so they have to have the same genes. And why is it so impossible that genes are linked to language and culture? Look at distribution of Indo European languages and distribution of R1a and I2 haplogroups. So new tribe comes in, and brings new genes and new language and new culture. But they don't just wipe out the old population, They mixed with them, and exchanged and preserved not just genes, but language, culture...So you get layers...In Irish you have layers of R1a, I2, I2, E1b genes and languages and cultures buried under R1b avalanche. What I am doing is linguistic archaeology. Why do you think you don't know what the names of Irish old gods mean? Because they were not gaelic gods. They were gods of the population which lived in Ireland before gaels arrived. They named their gods using their own language, and in that language the gods names mean something. Like Vid means site, and lite, and knowledge in Serbian, so God Vid, Svetovid means the one who sees everything, who gives site, light to everything, The sun. What is the meaning of the name Lugh, Balor, Beli, Bran, Gobhan...There is no clear etymology in Irish. But there is in Serbian. How is this possible? Because the population that lived in Ireland originally spoke language of R1a and I2 people. And they named their gods using those languages. They also named all the sacred place names accordingly. Then the R1b people arrived, brought their own language, their own culture and mythology. They mixed with the old population, eventually took over, and replaced the old language with the new and the old culture with the new, one which was mixture of the old R1a + I2 and new R1b language and culture. In this new language, the meaning of the names of gods and holy places was forgotten. But these R1b invaders who took over Ireland also took over Serbia. So we have huge R1b cultural influence in Serbia as well. There is a possibility the royal Serbs of the medieval Nemanjic dynasty are actually R1b, from the Carpathian mountains, where the R1b still prevails. The area is known as "old Serbia". Serbian medieval kings called themselves kings of "Племена Цимери" "plemena cimeri" pronounced "plemena tsimeri" meaning the tribe of cimbri, cimru, Celts...Here are royal standards of Nemanjic dinasty from the 13th century.





They came from the "Old Serbia" in the Carpathian mountains on the border between Serbia and Bulgaria.

Welsh (Cymraeg or y Gymraeg, pronounced [kəmˈrɑːɨɡ, ə ɡəmˈrɑːɨɡ]) is a member of the Brythonic branch of the Celtic languages spoken natively in Wales, by some along the Welsh border in England, and in Y Wladfa (the Welsh colony in Chubut Province, Argentina).[9] Historically it has also been known in English as "the British tongue",[10] "Cambrian",[11] "Cambric"[12] and "Cymric".[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language

The Welsh people (Welsh: Cymry) are an ethnic group and nation indigenous to Wales and associated with the Welsh language...
The process whereby the indigenous population of 'Wales' came to think of themselves as Welsh is not clear. There is plenty of evidence of the use of the term Brythoniaid (Britons); by contrast, the earliest use of the word Kymry (referring not to the people but to the land—and possibly to northern Britain in addition to modern day territory of Wales) is found in a poem dated to about 633. The name of the region in northern England now known as Cumbria is derived from the same root.[32] Only gradually did Cymru (the land) and Cymry (the people) come to supplant Brython. Although the Welsh language was certainly used at the time, Gwyn A. Williams argues that even at the time of the erection of Offa's Dyke, the people to its west saw themselves as Roman, citing the number of Latin inscriptions still being made into the 8th century.[33] However, it is unclear whether such inscriptions reveal a general or normative use of Latin as a marker of identity or its selective use by the early Christian Church.
The word Cymry is believed to be derived from the Brythonic combrogi, meaning fellow-countrymen,[29] and thus Cymru carries a sense of "land of fellow-countrymen", "our country"—and, of course, notions of fraternity. The name "Wales", however, comes from the Germanic walha, a term meaning "stranger" or "foreigner" which was applied particularly to peoples who had been Romanised.[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_people

In Serbian word "kum" means blood brother, the god father. He is the most important person in your life, he is assigned to you at birth, to guide you through this life, but more importantly to guide you through the after life. His most important role is to help you cross "kumova slama", blood brother's hay, milky way, the Styx river... The mountain people, the shepherds, are called Vlah, but that is also a name which was used for Serbs in medieval time by the Turks and the Catholic church. So Serbs and Vlahs were originally probably the same, non Slavic, R1b population which came from the Carpathian mountains and took control of Slavic and pre Slavic population of Serbia in early medieval time. That mix later became known as Serbs. Serbs just means the best fighters. This is from the first page of the Vinca thread:

Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitró;s, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfó;nos, slaughter, @Gqeí;nw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

Serbs were also known as Serboi. This basically means the best fighters, the free fighters.

Have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

The Boii (Latin plural, singular Boius; Greek Βόϊοι) were a Gallic tribe of the later Iron Age, attested at various times in Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), Pannonia (Hungary and its western neighbours), in and around Bohemia (after whom the region is named), and Transalpine Gaul. In addition the archaeological evidence indicates that in the 2nd century BC Celts expanded from Bohemia through the Kłodzko Valley into Silesia, now part of Poland.[1]
They first appear in history in connection with the Gallic invasion of north Italy, 390 BC, when they made the Etruscan city of Felsina their new capital, Bononia (Bologna). After a series of wars they were decisively beaten by the Romans in a battle near Mutina (Modena) and their territory became part of the Roman province of Cisalpine Gaul. According to Strabo, writing two centuries after the events, rather than being destroyed by the Romans like their Celtic neighbours,

Do you see the name of the Boi capital: Bononia (Bologna). Remember Ban, Van meaning white in Serbian and Irish and Bel , Beo meaning white in Serbian and Welsh? Basically the name of the city is White City, Beli Grad, Beograd, Belgrade. The Balkan territory of the Serbs is littered with Belgrad, Beograd place names. Capital of Serbia is Beograd. Panonian plane is actually Banonian plane, from ban + on + je, meaning white he is, which gives Panonia the meaning the plane of white people.

This is what Wiki says about the etymology of the name Boii:

From all the different names of the same Celtic people in literature and inscriptions it is possible to abstract a continental Celtic segment, boio-.[3] There are two major derivations of this segment, both presupposing that it belongs to the family of Indo-European languages: from 'cow' and from 'warrior.' The Boii would thus be either "the herding people" or "the warrior people."
The "cow" derivation depends most immediately on the Old Irish legal term for "outsider:" amboue, from proto-Celtic *ambouios, "not a cattle owner."[4] In a reference to the first known historical Boii, Polybius relates[5] that their wealth consisted of cattle and gold, that they depended on agriculture and war, and that a man's status depended on the number of associates and assistants he had. The latter were presumably the *ambouii, as opposed to the man of status, who was *bouvios, a cattle owner, and the *bouii were originally a class, "the cattle owners."

The "warrior" derivation was adopted by the linguist Julius Pokorny, who presented it as being from Indo-European *bhei(ə)-, *bhī-, "hit;" however, not finding any Celtic names close to it (except for the Boii), he adduces examples somewhat more widely from originals further back in time: phohiio-s-, a Venetic personal name; Boioi, an Illyrian tribe; Boiōtoi, a Greek tribal name ("the Boeotians") and a few others.[6] Boii would be from the o-grade of *bhei-, which is *bhoi-. Such a connection is possible if the original form of Boii belonged to a tribe of Proto-Indo-European speakers long before the time of the historic Boii. The Celtic tribe of central Europe must in that case be a final daughter population of a linguistically diversifying ancestor tribe.
The same wider connections can be hypothesized for the "cow" derivation: the Boeotians have been known for well over a century as a people of kine, which might have been parallel to the meaning of Italy as a "land of calves." Indo-European reconstructions can be made using *gʷou- "cow" as a basis, such as *gʷowjeh³s.[7]
Contemporary derived words include Boiorix ("king of the Boii", one of the chieftains of the Cimbri) and Boiodurum ("gate/fort of the Boii", modern Passau) in Germany. Their memory also survives in the modern regional names of Bohemia (Boiohaemum), a mixed-language form from boio- and Proto-Germanic *haimaz, "home": "home of the Boii," and 'Bayern', Bavaria, which is derived from the Germanic Baiovarii tribe (Germ. *baio-warioz: the first component is most plausibly explained as a Germanic version of Boii; the second part is a common formational morpheme of Germanic tribal names, meaning 'dwellers', as in Anglo-Saxon -ware);[note 1] this combination "Boii-dwellers" may have meant "those who dwell where the Boii formerly dwelt".

There is no contradiction here, if you look at Irish and Serbian.

Bo, Vo is cow, bull, name based on the sound of the cattle
Ba is sheep (reconstructed old name based on the sound of sheep)
Bo means stab, like with a horn of a bull, or a spear
Bosti - to stab
Boj, Voj - battle
bijnik, Vojnik - solder

So Boji could be, and probably were both cattle herders and solders. The agricultural people re linked to the land. They have to stay on it all year round, or their crops will fail. Shepherds are not linked to the land. Actually they are forced to migrate following their herds. This makes shepherds predisposed to be solders. And we have exactly that in Serbia.

So Serboi just means the best boi, the best solders, the aristocracy of the central European "Celts", "the Celtic tribe of central Europe which must be a final daughter population of a linguistically diversifying ancestor tribe..."

But boi could also come from Beo, which means the same as Ban, white. Maybe boi comes from Beoja singular meaning beo + ja = white + i am and Beoji plural meaning beo + ji = white + you are. I believe that these terms are also linked, because bo, ba, be, the sound of a milk producing cattle as well as crying ba(by) is associated with milk, which is white. So ba, be became root words for Ban, Van, Beo, Bel all meaning white. When Afroasiatic population invade Europe, they encountered white people in today's Greece. The land was known as Boeotia = Beo + ti + ja = white + you + country, or Boj + ti + ja = Fighter + you + country, or Bo + ti + ja = cattle, sheep + you + country. All three etymologies are derived from the same root coming from the sound that cattle, sheep make.

This is what Wiki says about Boeotia:

Boeotia was one of the earliest inhabited regions in prehistoric Greece.[citation needed] Many Greek ancient legends, including a number related to the aboriginal population, originate in this region. The Muses of Mount Helicon, the myths of Oedipus and the sphinx, of Dionysos and Semele, of Amphion and Antiope, the myth of King Kadmus as bringer of the alphabet, the mythic king Ogyges related to the first mentioned great deluge, and many other legends became part of the Greek culture. The older myths took their final form during the Mycenean age (1600–1200 BC) when the Mycenean Greeks established themselves in Boeotia and the city of Thebes became an important centre. Many of these legends are related to the myths of Argos in southern Greece which is close to Mycenae, the most powerful Mycenean kingdom. Some of them indicate connections with Phoenicia, where the Mycenean Greeks and later the Euboean Greeks established trading posts.
Hesiod, the ancient poet of Theogony who included many legends of the first Greek cosmogony and in the genealogy of the gods, was born in Boeotia. Later Pindar, the great Greek poet born in Thebes, was influenced by an older religion different from the Olympic pantheon. In Lebadea was the ancient oracular shrine of Trophonius, related to the old chthonic religion. Many of these legends were used as themes by the tragic Greek poets, in their masterpieces Oedipus the King, Antigone, Seven Against Thebes, Antiope and also in the lost play Niobe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeotia

The area of "old Serbia, Ser boia" is the same area where we find all the "celtic" crosses and where I come from. The mountain overlooking my father's village is called Vlasina, the mountain of Vlahs, Walachs...Basically the mountains of the Balkans, the same mountains that preserved the old European language and culture were the land of the white, shepherd warriors.

So the story is not so simple. It is a riddle inside of a mystery...But that is why it is fun.

cfuserkildare

How does this affect the people that were there for thousands of years before known contact between these cultures?
Also, could the language similarities have been brought over by the Romans for example?

Ipso

This book has another "non mainstream" idea on Rathcroghan.
http://www.handofhistory.com

dublinviking

cfuserkildare

How does this affect the people that were there for thousands of years before known contact between these cultures?

Can you explain what you mean please. Which people, which territory, which cultures...

Also, could the language similarities have been brought over by the Romans for example?

No they couldn't because the similarities found in Serbian and Irish are mostly not found in Latin and when they are, the root is not in Latin but in Serbian and Irish.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

As regards the cultures in-between Serbia and Ireland, there would have been numerous civilations, Angels, Germannic races etc.

Did these languages show any evolution towards the Vinca / Gaelic languages?

When I mentioned the language being brought over by the Romans I meant the staff / retinue / slaves that were always dragged along by the Romans.

Was kinda the same for every army until modern times.

Also, Is it possible that the migration happenned the other way around? Possible origins of the Takla Makan people?

Ipso

The term Cymru for the Welsh has only been used in the post Roman era?
How ancient of a link are we talking here?
Is the link Serbian or is it still Vincan?
I never got the Vincan link to Serbia in the previous thread.

dublinviking

Ipso

The term Cymru for the Welsh has only been used in the post Roman era? How ancient of a link are we talking here?

I don't know. This is just one of the links. I said that many times. There are layers here, many layers. This particular one is probably iron age and onward, 500bc and after. This is probably R1b link, much more recent then the earlier R1a and I2a links. I believe that even Vinca links are not the oldest, as you can see from my discussion on fire on Vinca thread. When i started that thread i could only follow the link back to Vinca. But now i am sure the link is much older and it goes back to paleolithic times.

Kildare

As regards the cultures in-between Serbia and Ireland, there would have been numerous civilations, Angels, Germannic races etc. Did these languages show any evolution towards the Vinca / Gaelic languages?

There is a common layer in all European languages. This is normal because R1a, I2 people lived all over Central Europe from paleolithic times, and r1b from at least late neolithic. But once you dig into it, you keep finding that the roots are in Serbian or Irish. We are talking about building blocks of the language, the most basic terms, sounds and syllables which carry meaning and which are used for building complex words. I did not talk about it yet in great detail, but when i do you will see what i mean. You can see bits strewn all over Vinca tread.

When I mentioned the language being brought over by the Romans I meant the staff / retinue / slaves that were always dragged along by the Romans. Was kinda the same for every army until modern times.

Slaves would not have enough influence to impose cultural traits. But there were a lot of Soldiers from the Balkans in the Roman army. Elite troops. Lots of Sarmatians, Some Thracians (Celts) moved to Britain since the Roman invasion under Claudius in AD 43. They, as military elite would have had huge influence in Britain. But there were no Romans in Ireland, and certainly no Romans in Ireland at the time the astronomical circles were built, 4000 bc.

The gravestone of Longinus Sdapeze, duplicarius of ala I Thracum, son of Matygus, born in/around Serdica, found in Camulodunum (Colchester).

The true name of the city (now Sophia, the capital of Bulgaria) was Serdica, the city of the Serdi, a Thracian people defeated by Crassus in 29 B.C. and subjected to the Kingdom of Thrace, the vassal of Rome. When this kingdom was suppressed in 49 B.C. the Serdi were included in the Roman Province of Thracia. The Emperor Trajan transformed the borough of the Serdi into a city which he called Ulpia Serdica. In 275 Aurelian caused Dacia beyond the Danube to be evacuated, and transplanted to Moesia and Thracia the soldiers and colonists who were faithful to the Roman cause. The country occupied by these immigrants formed the new Province of Dacia, Sardica being included in this province (Homo, „Essai sur le regne de l'empereur Aurelien”, 313-21). Later, Diocletian divided Dacia into Dacia Ripensis and Dacia Mediterranea. Sardica was the civil and ecclesiastical metropolis of the latter. Gallienus established a mint at Sardica, and Constantine the Great, who was born in the region, contemplated making it his capital. Ecclesiastically, Sardica belonged to the Patriarchate of Rome until 733, when it was annexed to that of Constantinople until 809. Upon the conversion of the Bulgarians, in 865, Sardica was one of the first cities which had a see. Until 1204 it was included in the Graeco-Bulgarian Patriarchate of Achrida, until 1393 in the Bulgarian Patriarchate of Tirnovo, and until 1872 in that of Constantinople. Since then Sardica, or, as it is now called, Sophia, belongs to the national Church of Bulgaria. The earliest known bishop is Protagenes, who assisted at the Council of Nicaea in 325; the best known is Bonosus, who shortly afterwards attacked the virginity of the Blessed Virgin. (For the council held here in the fourth century see Council of Sardica.)

the Bulgars, who changed its name to Sredetz, later transformed by the Greeks into Sraditza and Triaditza. Again occupied by the Greeks from 1018 to 1186, it enjoyed great prosperity; a section of the population was Paulician or Manichaean. After some years of troubles it again fell into the power of the Bulgars. Its present name of Sophia dates from the Middle Ages, though the precise date of its first use cannot be assigned. In the sixteenth century Sredetz and Sophia were used simultaneously. In 1382 the city was captured by the Turks, and for more than four centuries it was the residence of the beglerbeg, or governor general, of Rumelia. In 1878 Sophia was chosen as the capital of the Principality of Bulgaria, and since 1908 has been the capital of the Kingdom of Bulgaria. A vicariate Apostolic was created here at an early date and confided to the Franciscans. In 1610 Rome reestablished the See of Sophia, which in 1643 was made archiepiscopal. It was suppressed towards the end of the eighteenth century, because the Catholics were persecuted by the Turks and had emigrated, mostly to Austria and Russia. Relative peace was restored in 1835. And Rome confided the direction of the Catholics to the Redemptorists, under a vicar Apostolic who had not received episcopal consecration. The Redemptorists were replaced by the Capuchins in 1841, their superior being consecrated bishop in 1848. At present an archbishop is at the head of this vicariate Apostolic. Sophia has 105,000 inhabitants, of whom a small number are Catholics. The Christian Brothers have a school there, and the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Apparition three convents.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13472b.htm

The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika (Bulgarian: Сердика, Latin: Ulpia Serdica, Greek: Σαρδῶν πόλις), now Sofia in Bulgaria,[2] which reflects their ethnonym. They would have established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC, though there is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. Serdi are among traditional tribal names reported into the Roman era.[3] They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character in material culture up to a late date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

This is where old Serbia was. Thracian horsemen the best cavalry of the old era, Serbian horsemen the best cavalry of the new era. I will talk about this soon.

Now some more about this Serbian Irish R1b link:

All Saints' Day (also known as All Hallows, Solemnity of All Saints or The Feast of All Saints)[3] is a solemnity celebrated on 1 November by the Catholic Church, and on the first Sunday after Pentecost in Eastern Catholicism, in honour of all the saints, known and unknown. All Saints' Day is the second day of Hallowmas,[4] and begins at sunrise on the first day of November and finishes at sundown. It is the day before All Souls' Day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints'_Day

In most European languages the name of the feast comes from the ecclesiastical term: Pentecdte in French, Fentecostes in Spanish, Pfingsten in German, Binkosti in Slovenian, Piinkosd in Hungarian, Pintse in Danish, Fentikosti among the Slavs of the Eastern Church, and Pentiqosti in Syrian. A word meaning "Feast of the Holy Ghost" (Duhovi, Twice) is used by some Slavic nations, including the Serbs, Croats, and Slovaks, and by the Romanians (Domineca Spiritului Santu). The English word Whitsunday (White Sunday) originated because of the fact that the newly baptized appeared in white garments for the services of. the day. Among the Arab-speaking Christians of the Near East the festival is called 'id el-uncure (Feast of the Solemn Assembly), the word coming from the Hebrew 'asereth (festive meeting).3
Some nations have appropriately named the feast after the ancient custom of decorating homes and churches with flowers and boughs. This practice goes back to the nature lore of the Indo-European races. At the time of full spring, when trees stood in their early foliage and flowers blossomed in abundance, our pre-Christian ancestors celebrated a gay festival, with maypole, May Queen, and May dance, during which they adorned their homes with flowers and branches of pale-green tender leaves. This custom was retained in Christian times, and some of its features were transferred to the Feast of Pentecost. Thus the festival is called the "Green Holyday" {Zielone Swieta) in Poland and among the Ukrainians, "Flower Feast" (Blumenfest) in Germany, "Summer Feast" (Slavnost Letnice) among the Czechs. In the Latin countries a similar term is used: Pascha Rosatum, in Latin, meaning "Feast of Roses." The Italian name Pascua Rossa (Red Pasch) was inspired by the color of the liturgical vestments.4

http://www.keithhunt.com/Pentecost.html

Yellow flowers such as primrose, rowan, hawthorn, gorse, hazel and marsh marigold were set at doorways and windows in 19th century Ireland, Scotland and Mann. Sometimes loose flowers were strewn at the doors and windows and sometimes they would be made into bouquets, garlands or crosses and fastened to them. They would also be fastened to cows and equipment for milking and butter making. It is likely that such flowers were used because they evoked fire.[2] Similar May Day customs are found across Europe.
The May Bush was popular in parts of Ireland until the late 19th century.[3] This was small tree, typically a thorn tree, that would be decorated with bright flowers, ribbons, painted shells, and so forth. There were household May Bushes (which would be set outside each house) and communal May Bushes (which would be set in a public spot or paraded around the neighbourhood). In Dublin and Belfast, May Bushes were brought into town from the countryside and decorated by the whole neighbourhood.[3] Each neighbourhood vied for the most handsome tree and, sometimes, residents of one would try to steal the May Bush of another. This led to the May Bush being outlawed in Victorian times.[3] In some places, it was customary to dance around the May Bush, and at the end of the festivities it was burnt in the bonfire.[15] Thorn trees were seen as special trees and were associated with the sí or fairies. The custom of decorating a May Bush or May Tree was found in many parts of Europe. Frazer believes that such customs are a relic of tree worship and writes: "The intention of these customs is to bring home to the village, and to each house, the blessings which the tree-spirit has in its power to bestow".[16] Sharon MacLeod writes that May Bushes were set outside farmhouses "to encourage and protect the abundance of milk during the summer".[17] Emyr Estyn Evans suggests that the May Bush custom may have come to Ireland from England, because it seemed to be found in areas with strong English influence and because the Irish saw it as unlucky to damage certain thorn trees.[18] However, "lucky" and "unlucky" trees varied by region,[17] and it has been suggested that Beltane was the only time when cutting thorn trees was allowed.[19] The practice of bedecking a May Bush with flowers, ribbons, garlands and coloured shells is found among the Gaelic diaspora, most notably in Newfoundland, and in some Easter traditions on the East Coast of the United States.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane

The May Bush was a decorated bush, which in rural areas was left outside the house. In towns, it was erected in a communal place. Sometimes it was carried about the area by groups of adults although later this custom was carried out by children. Geographically, the tradition was strongest in Leinster and the Midlands, stretching west to Galway and northwards to south Ulster and Donegal. The bush was often of hawthorn. The decoration usually consisted of ribbons, cloth streamers and perhaps tinsel. Sometimes the leftover coloured eggshells painted for Easter Sunday were used as decorations. On occasions, candles were attached to it. ‘Long Life, a pretty wife and a candle for the May Bush’ was a rhyme recounted by children in Dublin when looking for a contribution of candles, money or sweets for their May Day festivities. Sometimes communal bushes were burnt on May Day evening. The bush was associated with the luck of the house or the community and in cities it was watched carefully in case a rival group would attempt to steal it. The custom of erecting a May bush still survives as an individual household tradition, particularly in the Midlands.

http://www.museum.ie/en/list/topic-may-day.aspx?article=89810988-4de7-4977-89d7-a6cb7038c170

http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ACalend/Beltane.html

Đurđevdan (Ђурђевдан, pronounced [ˈdʑuːrdʑeʋdaːn], "George's day" in Serbian, Gergyovden "George's day" in Bulgarian, Jurjevo "George's" in Croatian and Bosnian or Gjurgjuvden (Ѓурѓовден) in Macedonian, is a South-Slavic religious holiday, celebrated on April 23 by the Julian calendar (May 6 by Gregorian calendar), which is the feast of Saint George and a very important Slava. He is one of the most important Christian saints in Orthodox churches: the patron saint of Slav, Georgian and Circassian Christian warriors, Cossacks, Chetniks, and armies. This holiday is attached to the tradition of celebrating the beginning of spring. Christian synaxaria hold that St. George was a martyr who died for his faith. On icons, he is usually depicted as a man riding a horse and killing a dragon. Jurjevo is mainly celebrated in the rural areas of Croatia, mostly Turopolje and Gornja Stubica whereas every Đurđevdan is celebrated all over the Serbian diaspora but mainly in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia Herzegovina and Macedonia. In Croatian St. George is called Sv. Juraj while in Serbian he's called Sveti Đorđe (Serbian Cyrillic: Свети Ђорђе), in Bulgarian Sveti Georgi (Cyrillic: Свети Георги) and in Macedonian Sv. Gjorgjija (Ѓорѓија)....This holiday celebrates the return of springtime and is considered the most important. The traditions of the Roma Durđevdan are based on decorating the home with flowers and blooming twigs as a welcoming to spring. It also includes taking baths added with flowers and washing hands with water from church wells. Also the walls of the home could be washed with the water. On the day of the feast it is most common to grill a lamb for the feast dinner. The appearance of music is also very important during this holiday. Aside from dancing and singing, traditional Brass bands are popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90ur%C4%91evdan

St Georgie is actually old Slavic god of Spring and youth Jarilo. He has epithet "green" and is said to bring life to the earth.

The only historic source that mentions this deity is a 12th-century biography of proselytizing German bishop Otto of Bamberg, who, during his expeditions to convert the pagan tribes of Wendish and Polabian Slavs, encountered festivals in honor of the war-god Gerovit in cities of Wolgast and Havelberg. Gerovit is most likely a German corruption of original Slavic name Jarovit.
Up until the 19th century in Russia, Belarus and Serbia, folk festivals called Jarilo were celebrated in late spring or early summer. Early researchers of Slavic mythology recognised in them relics of pagan ceremonies in honor of an eponymous spring deity. In Northern Croatia and Southern Slovenia, similar spring festivals were called Jurjevo or Zeleni Juraj or Zeleni Jurij (Green George), nominally dedicated to St. George, and fairly similar to Jarilo festivals of other Slavic nations.
All of these spring festivals were basically alike: Processions of villagers would go around for a walk in the country or through villages on this day. Something or someone was identified to be Jarilo or Juraj: A doll made of straw, a man or a child adorned with green branches, or a girl dressed like a man, riding on a horse. Certain songs were sung which alluded to Juraj/Jarilo's return from a distant land across the sea, the return of spring into the world, blessings, fertility and abundance to come.

Jarilo was a son of the supreme Slavic god of thunder, Perun, his lost, missing, tenth son, born on the last night of February, the festival of Velja Noć (Great Night), the pagan Slavic celebration of the New Year. On the same night, however, Jarilo was stolen from his father and taken to the world of the dead, where he was adopted and raised by Veles, Perun's enemy, Slavic god of the underworld and cattle. The Slavs believed the underworld to be an ever-green world of eternal spring and wet, grassy plains, where Jarilo grew up guarding the cattle of his stepfather. In the mythical geography of ancient Slavs, the land of the dead was assumed to lie across the sea, where migrating birds would fly every winter.
With the advent of spring, Jarilo returned from the underworld, that is, bringing spring and fertility to the land. Spring festivals of Jurjevo/Jarilo that survived in later folklore celebrated his return. Katičić identified a key phrase of ancient mythical texts which described this sacred return of vegetation and fertility as a rhyme hoditi/roditi (to walk/to give birth to), which survived in folk songs:
...Gdje Jura/Jare/Jarilo hodit, tam vam polje rodit...
"...Where Jura/Jare/Jarilo walks, there your field gives birth..."
The first of the gods to notice Jarilo's return to the living world was Morana, a goddess of death and nature, and also a daughter of Perun and Jarilo's twin-sister. The two of them would fall in love and court each other through a series of traditional, established rituals, imitated in various Slavic courting or wedding customs. The divine wedding between brother and sister, two children of the supreme god, was celebrated in a festival of summer solstice, today variously known as Ivanje or Ivan Kupala in the various Slavic countries. This sacred union of Jarilo and Morana, deities of vegetation and of nature, assured abundance, fertility and blessing to the earth, and also brought temporary peace between two major Slavic gods, Perun and Veles, signifying heaven and underworld. Thus, all mythical prerequisites were met for a bountiful and blessed harvest that would come in late summer.
However, since Jarilo's life was ultimately tied to the vegetative cycle of the cereals, after the harvest (which was ritually seen as a murder of crops), Jarilo also met his death. The myth explained this by the fact that he was unfaithful to his wife, and so she (or her father Perun, or his other nine sons, her brothers) kills him in retribution. This rather gruesome death is in fact a ritual sacrifice, and Morana uses parts of Jarilo's body to build herself a new house. This is a mythical metaphor which alludes to rejuvenation of the entire cosmos, a concept fairly similar to that of Scandinavian myth of Ymir, a giant from whose body the gods created the world.
Without her husband, however, Morana turns into a frustrated old hag, a terrible and dangerous goddess of death, frost and upcoming winter, and eventually dies by the end of the year. At the beginning of the next year, both she and Jarilo are born again, and the entire myth starts anew.

Katičić and Belaj suggest that the god had an equine characteristic. Folk accounts strongly emphasize the presence of a horse (in Belarusian festivals, for instance, Jarilo was symbolised by a girl dressed as a man and mounted on a horse), and also the fact Jarilo walked a long way and his feet are sore. Thus, he is a rider on a horse who also "walks".
In historic descriptions of West Slavic paganism, one often finds references to sacred horses held in temples, which were used for divination, and predictions were made on the basis of how the horse walked through rows of spears sticking from the ground.
In certain customs of some Baltic and Slavic wedding celebrations, a horse symbolises a young husband.
In some Slavic folk songs, an angry young wife, apparently cheated upon by her husband, kills a horse or orders her brothers to kill it for her.
Jarilo's identification as a mischievous god may involve the ability of shapeshifting. This is seen in other mischievous pagan deities, such as Proteus and Loki, who himself once took the form of a horse.
All this led Katičić and Belaj to conclude that Jarilo himself was conceived of as a horse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarilo

JURJEVANJE
Jarilo (nowdays known as Zeleni Jurij, The Green George) is the god who is carried from the underwold every winter by the birds. Birds are sacred because they bring gods from underworld and they carry dead people's souls to the other world...beyond the sea.
Jarilo makes the meadows and pastures all green. Very old songs say that Jarilo walks and rides at the same time. And there are also other innuendos that he is half horse. Quite a few historians agree due to other studies that Jarilo looks a bit like kentaur, half man, half horse.
»Jarost« is the word describing something new, something fresh, that energy that young people have and it fades by the age and only rare can keep. From the root, the name of the god comes, he brings new year, freshness.
His other name is "vesnik" a male version of the archaic word for spring (vesna).
Jarilo starts his journey from the underground on spring equinox and on his way he makes the nature more on more green everywhere he steps. He meets Mara, she gives him an apple to show she will marry him. Many nations celebrate spring equinox aa the start of the spring and the conquer of the day over night.
However in Slovenia, the tradition of the "Green George" goes on at the end of april, because, following the nature, shepperds only then started to bring the stock out to the pastures and only then the work in the fields began.
Then a man gets dressed in greenery and they go from village to village from door to door to bring a good energy for a good harvest and a fruitful year. Zeleni Jurij is most of all known in southern parts of Slovenia.
He is the new energy and a strong young man. In other slavic lands he is also the god of war, his temples alsways had shield of Jarilo.
In Slovenia later on in christian time, soldiers would call to St. Jurij for protection and even now, when people go into the batlles or fighting for someting we call "na juriš", derrived form the sae word.
That is how we may assume that Jurij/Jarilo has, besides bringing the new spring, also war attributes.
Ritual is in close connection to the singing, the girls that sing spring songs and go from house to house are called ladarice.
People are driving in a carriages carrying on the man wearing green leaves depicting Jarilo-Jurij.
Traditionally, when native faith association celebrates, there are offerings to a god made out of food and jumping over the fires is a "must do" so love amongst us guaranteed and the protection.

May bush from Croatia:






Serbian orhtodox church was created by the Nemanjic dynasty in 13th century. For All saints day, originally the first day of summer, Beltane, Jurjevo, Jarilov dan, Serbian orthodox priests wear green robes:




In Serbia the beginning of the summer is celebrated on Jurjevdan, celebrated on the 6th of May every year. This is the first day of the summer, the day when sheep are moved to the mountain pastures. The end of summer i celebrated on the 8th of November every year on the day called Mitrovdan the day of st Mitar. This is when the sheep are brought down from the mountains.

During the Middle Ages, St Demetrios came to be revered as one of the most important Orthodox military saints, often paired with Saint George. One theory is that his veneration was transferred from Sirmium when Thessaloniki replaced it as the main military base in the area in 441/442 AD. His very large church in Thessaloniki, the Hagios Demetrios, dates from the mid-5th century.[2] Thessaloniki remained a centre of his veneration, and he is the patron saint of the city.
After the growth of his veneration as saint, the city of Thessaloniki suffered repeated attacks and sieges from the Slavic peoples who moved into the Balkans, and Demetrius was credited with many miraculous interventions to defend the city. Hence later traditions about Demetrius regard him as a soldier in the Roman army, and he came to be regarded as an important military martyr. Unsurprisingly, he was extremely popular in the Middle Ages, and along with Saint George, was the patron of the Crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Thessaloniki

Sirmium was a city in ancient Roman Pannonia. First mentioned in the 4th century BC and originally inhabited by the Illyrians and Celts,[1] it was conquered by the Romans in the 1st century BC and subsequently became the capital of the Roman province of Lower Pannonia. Remains of Sirmium are situated on the locality of the modern day Sremska Mitrovica, 55 km west of Belgrade (Roman Singidunum) and 145 km away from Kostolac (Roman Viminacium). Archaeologists have found traces of organized human life on the site of Sirmium dating from 5,000 BC.[4] The city was firstly mentioned in the 4th century BC and was originally inhabited by the Illyrians and Celts[5] (i.e. by the Pannonian-Illyrian Amantini[6] and the Celtic Scordisci[7]). The Triballian King Syrmus was later considered the eponymous founder of Sirmium, but the roots are different, and the two words only became conflated later.[8] The name Sirmium by itself means "flow", "flowing water", "wetland", referring to its close river position on the nearby Sava, Latin Savus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirmium

Scordisci are the alleged founders of the Serbian capital, Belgrade.

Please note green and gold colors on St Dimitrije, St Mitar. The two military saints of the Serbs, St George and St Mitar, divide the year into the light and dark half, summer and winter, in the exactly the same way the Irish old calendar does with Beltane and Samhain.

Here are some frescoes of the guardians of summer and the sun, Georgije and Mitar. Please note green, orange and gold colors again:





The cult of holy warriors was extremely strong in Serbia. Nothing strange for a military caste. Here is a fresco from monastery Manasija from the start of the 15th century, depicting holy warriors in the contemporary Serbian military equipment. Please note the colors, orange (red) green and gold.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasija_monastery

Why are all these Serbian warriors and Saints wearing green, orange and gold?

Stephen Dušan (Serbian: Stefan Dušan/Стефан Душан, pronounced [stêfaːn ûroʃ tʃětʋr̩ːtiː dǔʃan]), commonly known as Stephen Dušan and Dušan the Mighty (Dušan Silni/Душан Силни; c. 1308 – 20 December 1355), was the King of Serbia (from 8 September 1331) and Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks (from 16 April 1346) until his death on 20 December 1355. Dušan conquered a large part of southeast Europe, becoming one of his era's most powerful monarchs. He enacted the constitution of the Serbian Empire in Dušan's Code, perhaps the most important work of medieval Serbia. Dušan promoted the Serbian Church from an archbishopric to a patriarchate, finished the construction of the Visoki Dečani-monastery (UNESCO site), and founded the Saint Archangels Monastery, among others. Under his rule Serbia reached its territorial, economical, political and cultural peak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Uro%C5%A1_IV_Du%C5%A1an_of_Serbia

King Stephen Dušan, the king of the tribe of Cimbri had a very interesting flag. King Dušan's flag was triangular with green, orange and yellow colors. The flag was kept in Hilandar monastery until the monastery burned down in a arson attack by Albanians in 1990's. Here is a description of the flag from a book from 1938:



Here is a reconstruction based on the book:



Here is the actual flag on a pucture taken before the monastery was burned down:



The blood line of the Nemanjic dynasty. Please note the colors of the fresco, green and gold:



Interesting, don't you think? It gets even more interesting when we see that the totem animal of the Serbs was "Zmaj Ogjeni Vuk" meaning Dragon fiery wolf, Draco, Dracul...Uroboros, dragon...Remember Pandragon, king Arthur, The Sarmatian? Where did he come from?

Ipso

For anyone that's interested the link below shows a current proposed indo european family tree and an R1a tree.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1519-Languages-and-Y-DNA-lineages

You need to be mire specific about I2, the very old form (I2a1) which is thought to have arrived at a time that was pre indo european.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

dublinviking

Ipso thanks for reading.

You need to be mire specific about I2, the very old form (I2a1) which is thought to have arrived at a time that was pre indo european.

I am talking about pre Indoeuropean time when i talk about I2a. Indoeuropean = R1a was originally European R1a related probably to Cromagnons, real old Europeans so they are in essence pre Indoeuropean. See vinca thread on anthropology and the discussion about the fire. Fire bird legend is at least 12000 years old, and it has been preserved through R1a people, because it was originally probably created by R1a people. So R1a was in Europe much earlier than "Indoeuropean" invasions. Probably was in Ireland before first farmers even arrived, if they weren't the first farmers. I am still in two minds was it I2 or R1a who brought the agriculture and megaliths to Ireland. This is why i need help. There is so much more to discover...

cfuserkildare

Hi dublinviking,

"Interesting, don't you think? It gets even more interesting when we see that the totem animal of the Serbs was "Zmaj Ogjeni Vuk" meaning Dragon fiery wolf, Draco, Dracul...Uroboros, dragon...Remember Pandragon, king Arthur, The Sarmatian? Where did he come from?"

Dealing with the above quote first,

The name of Arthurs father was Uther Pendragon mentioned in a story written 500 years after the collapse of the Roman Empire, which essentially created international contact/trade on a large scale.

As regards the colour scheme associated with Ireland an all things Irish, again these are relatively recent, the paintings/iconagraphs, these are all church oriented/inspired, and Western RC and Eastern Orthodox shared artists and most religious origins.

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

Ipso thanks for reading.




I am talking about pre Indoeuropean time when i talk about I2a. Indoeuropean = R1a was originally European R1a related probably to Cromagnons, real old Europeans so they are in essence pre Indoeuropean. See vinca thread on anthropology and the discussion about the fire. Fire bird legend is at least 12000 years old, and it has been preserved through R1a people, because it was originally probably created by R1a people. So R1a was in Europe much earlier than "Indoeuropean" invasions. Probably was in Ireland before first farmers even arrived, if they weren't the first farmers. I am still in two minds was it I2 or R1a who brought the agriculture and megaliths to Ireland. This is why i need help. There is so much more to discover...

So far it's been I2a and G2 that has turned up in ancient DNA
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans
A more recently released result from Spain may even be haplogroup C.
I have seen haplogroup J being suggested as being potentially linked to the spread of farming.

R1a is usually associated with Eastern Europe and may have played a role in spreading Indo European there. I think R1b-p312 and it's subgroups correlate better with its spread in Western Europe.
I can't post the link but search for Ireland Project Family Tree DNA and you will be able to see the results for over 3,000 males.
Personally I think it looks like most R1a may have came from Britain in the last millenium.

slowburner

Ipso wrote: »

Personally I think it looks like most R1a may have came from Britain in the last millenium.

Why do you think this?

Ipso

slowburner wrote: »

Why do you think this?

I remember having a quick glance (there's not too many R1a) and seeing a lot of non gaelic names showing up.
Granted that is a crude method and you're relying on people with R1a results joining the project.
The ideal way would be to have all those people with R1a results say where they're closest matches are from based on the str results but that is time consuming.

Wren A. Magreet

Hi Ipso,
I'm just curious if you've read Oppenheimer's 'Origins of the British' or Sykes's
'Blood of the Isles',and if so,would you recommend them to those of us who don't have a background in genetics studies?

Ipso

Wren A. Magreet wrote: »

Hi Ipso,
I'm just curious if you've read Oppenheimer's 'Origins of the British' or Sykes's
'Blood of the Isles',and if so,would you recommend them to those of us who don't have a background in genetics studies?

I read them but they are way out of date now. Many new discoveries in the field have been made by amateurs and hobbyists.
I haven't read it but the book Ancestral Journeys by Jean Manco seems to be very up to date.
The forum I linked to earlier contains a lot of good info.

Wren A. Magreet

Ipso wrote: »

I read them but they are way out of date now. Many new discoveries in the field have been made by amateurs and hobbyists.
I haven't read it but the book Ancestral Journeys by Jean Manco seems to be very up to date.
The forum I linked to earlier contains a lot of good info.

That's what I thought - Sykes's 'Blood of the Isles' was published in 2007!
I must check out the Jean Manco book so - Thanks.

cfuserkildare

hi dublinviking,

Just a quick point,
The Romans did come to Ireland, and they were here for longer than most people realize.
I worked with someone many years ago who's husband was a surveyor working in Dublin, She told us that her husband was working on a few projects around Dublin 8 mostly, anyway, he said that they had dug up a temple and sections of properly laid Roman Road, plus lots of small artifacts too.
This would imply that the Romans were her for a reasonable length of time.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

hi dublinviking,

Just a quick point,
The Romans did come to Ireland, and they were here for longer than most people realize.
I worked with someone many years ago who's husband was a surveyor working in Dublin, She told us that her husband was working on a few projects around Dublin 8 mostly, anyway, he said that they had dug up a temple and sections of properly laid Roman Road, plus lots of small artifacts too.
This would imply that the Romans were her for a reasonable length of time.

Archaeology is a science and in science we don't make assertions based on wild claims that may or may not have been mentioned to a third party.
We make claims based on evidence, physical evidence, combined with transparent documentation.
No Roman temple was ever found in Dublin 8. Nor any Roman road. Nor any small Roman artefacts.
The question of whether or not the Romans had an established presence in Ireland is an interesting one and indeed has given rise to an entire project - the Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland project being undertaken under the Discovery Programme.
As things stand, we know that there were visits to Ireland by members of the Roman Empire. We don't know how frequent or regular these visits were.
We don't know if they stayed for any great length of time.
We certainly do know that there is no evidence as yet, of a Roman military presence on this island, of any established Roman colonies or of any significant resident Roman population.
That is where the evidence stands at the moment.



There are one or two threads in this forum concerning the Romans in Ireland. Any further discussion on the subject should be brought there.

cfuserkildare

Slowburner,

The Roman contact may be relevant to the spread of language from Eastern Europe to Ireland, so surely needs to be allowed in this thread?

slowburner

Fine, where relevant but a discussion of whether or not the Romans had a significant presence on this island needs to be kept in the appropriate thread.

dublinviking

Ipso

So far it's been I2a and G2 that has turned up in ancient DNA
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-for-Europeans
A more recently released result from Spain may even be haplogroup C.
I have seen haplogroup J being suggested as being potentially linked to the spread of farming.

R1a is usually associated with Eastern Europe and may have played a role in spreading Indo European there. I think R1b-p312 and it's subgroups correlate better with its spread in Western Europe.

These are Estimates. So are Kljusov's estimates. And they are vastly different. And Kljusov's estimates match archaeological and anthropological data much better. I personally think that R1a is a lot older than what your diagram of "estimated" dates shows. But it is also quite possible that all the cultural traits related to fire worship came from I2 Balkan population. Which got transferred to R1 which later became R1b. We will see. You also need to take into account, that fire worshipers, and R1a were Agni followers, burned their dead. So no bodies to be discovered and analyzed for genetic markers. All the old Serbian graves contain burned remains, and sometimes there are no remains at all, just a marker. The remains were probably poured in rivers...

cfuserkildare

As regards the colour scheme associated with Ireland an all things Irish, again these are relatively recent, the paintings/iconas, these are all church oriented/inspired, and Western RC and Eastern Orthodox shared artists and most religious origins.

Slavic colors are Blue, Red and white. Just look at all the Slavic flags, including modern Serbian flag. Green, orange and gold are highly unusual colors for Slavs. Not many Serbs actually know about this green flag. Did you read the description of May day celebrations in the Balkans and in Ireland? Do you see the amount of common pre christian customs? What about the May bush custom which only exists in Irish lands and in South Slavic lands?

Three customs---May flowers, May bush and May bough---involving greenery are associated with the celebration of Bealtaine (1 May), in Ireland.

The custom of using yellow flowers and greenery to decorate the outside of the house, outbuildings, and wells was once common throughout Ireland except in the counties of Munster (southwest Ireland). The flowers must be gathered and used on May eve (the evening of the last day of April) and must never be brought into the house. Also, flowers must not be picked on any day in May. The May bush is a small tree or part of one, often a whitethorn, that is set up outside the house on May Eve. The bush is decorated with flowers, ribbons, bits of paper, and pieces of colored eggshell saved from Easter celebrations. Increasingly, decorating the May bush has become a children's activity. In the last few decades, its popularity has spread, gradually replacing the May flowers custom outside of Munster. All the greenery customs seem designed to encourage the forces of growth implicit in the season. The yellow flowers may be living symbols of the sun, the source of growth energy. The way the May bush has replaced the May flowers within a few decades points out that customs can readily change. Lysaght speculates that the May bush was able to replace the May flowers custom because it makes use of May flowers and, in a way, combined the two customs.

The May bush custom is rare in Munster, where the May bough, little known elsewhere, dominates. The custom consists of cutting a small bough early in the morning of 1 May and hanging it inside the house. Except in a few isolated areas, flowers are not combined with the bough. Even in those cases, the flowers are gathered on the morning of 1 May (unlike the flowers hung in other parts of Ireland or used with the May bush).

The way the May bough dominates Munster but is almost unknown elsewhere is an excellent example of how customs can vary from one region to another. Folk customs are based on a belief that there is a right way, time, place, and action for each occasion. The efficacy of a custom was thought to depend on its being done properly. The differences in timing and place demonstrate why customs should not be lumped together or used interchangeably if one wishes to be true to the tradition and its beliefs.

How many of you have even heard of this "Irish custom"? Did you see the pictures of the May bush from the Balkans? Did you see that the celebration clearly predates Christianity and is the celebration of Jarilo, the raging fire, the white fire, bel tine, beltane. In Ireland no one knows what god the Beltane is dedicated to. Some say that the god was Baal. But maybe that is just bastardization of Bel, Ban, White, the sun?

Baal or Bel is associated with the fires. Beltane was the Lucky Fire through which cattle were passed for purification. Spenser declared that in his day the Irish never put out a fire without a prayer. The Gabha-Bheil, or trial by Beil, subjected the person with bare feet to pass three times through a fire. A festival is mentioned, when birds and other creatures, previously caught, were set free with lights attached to them. There was an old Irish prayer, Bealaine, corrupted to Bliadhain. Then we have Bealtinne, or Baal's fire; the cromlech, near Cork, of Bealach magdadhair; aiche Beltinne, the night of Baal's fire; Baaltinglas; Beil-aine, circle of Baal, &c.

Mrs. Anna Wilkes, in Ireland, the Ur of the Chaldees, sees in the Irish and Hebrew word ur, the sacred fire. A fire-priest was Ur-bad, or Hyr-bad. The perpetual fire in the monastery of Seighir, says the Tripartite Life, was at the place where St. Patrick first met St. Kieran. The Rinceadh-fada was a sacred dance of the Irish at Beil-tinne, like dances recorded of Phoenicia and Assyria. At Uisneach, the Navel of Ireland, where the Druids lighted the first fire of the season, courts were regularly held till long after Christian times.

The Venerable Bede records that even in his lifetime many of the Irish were given to fire-worship. Fraser assures his readers that "in the south of Ireland, the wayside beggar, whose appeals for charity have met with a liberal response, can think of no benediction so comprehensive as 'May the blessing of Bel rest upon you!"'

Culdees, the recognized successors of the Druids in Ireland and Scotland, are said to owe their name—cal, gal, or ceill—to the word meaning preserver of fire. "It is still lucky," writes one, "for the young people to jump over the flames, or for cattle to pass between two fires." Another says, "Our forefathers sent their sons and daughters through the fire to Moloch." In Toland's day firebrands were cast about the fields of corn at Midsummer Eve, the survival of prayers to the fire-god to give heat for the harvest perfection. He calls the November fire, Tine-tlached-gha, or fire-ground. And yet, Arthur Clive considered fire-worship opposed alike to Druidism and the faith preceding it.

In the Book of Rights, so ably reproduced by J. O'Donovan, there are four seasons described—Earrach, Samhradh, Foghmhar, and Geimeridh, which he finds to be "undoubtedly Irish words not derived from the Latin through Christianity." Fires were lighted at Bealtaine in the beginning of Samhradh. The summer-end fires, Samhain, were known by the name of Tlachtgha. The new fire was produced by the wheel and spindle, with tow. The wheel, a solar symbol, must be turned by the spokes in the direction of the sun's daily course.

As Scotland, especially the western part, was largely peopled from Ireland, it would not be surprising to recognize Baal or fire-worship there.

All Hallow Eve ceremonies are well known, and especially the passing through the fire, although the Council of Constantinople, 680, expressly prohibited the heathen practice of leaping through the fire. The Rev. Alan Stewart, referring to such fires in his parish of Kirkmichael, famous for its Druidical circle, said, "The practice of lighting bonfires prevails in this and the neighbouring Highland parishes." These were the Tinegin or Needfires.

Regular Baal-fires continued in Ayrshire till 1780, and milkmaids still like to drive their cows through the flames with a rowan stick. The proper way to light the fire is by friction. S. Laing writes of "the Bel-fires which, when I was young, were lighted on Midsummer night on the hills of Orkney and Shetland. As a boy, I have rushed, with my playmates, through the smoke of these bonfires, without a suspicion that we were repeating the homage paid to Baal in the Valley of Hinnom."

One cannot help remembering the passage in Isa. 1. ii—"All ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks, walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled." Virgil records a prayer to Apollo at Soracte:—

"Whom first we serve, whole woods of unctuous pine
Burn on thy Heap, and to thy glory shine;
By thee protected, with our naked soles,
Thro' flame unsinged we pass, and tread the kindled coals."

The poet did not add that such devotees first applied a special ointment to their feet.

The Scotch Beltane, till lately, was observed in the Hebrides with something more heathen than the fire. The people lighted the fire by the old fashion of friction with two pieces of wood, and then ate the consecrated cake indulged in by pagan Syrians. The Scotch had the mixture of eggs, milk, and oatcake. This was broken up, and distributed among the assembly. Whoever got the black bit, hidden in the cake, was considered worthy of sacrifice to Baal, as the cailteach bealtine. He was pushed into the fire, though soon rescued, and afterwards had to leap three times through the flames. The term Beltane carline was ever a name of reproach.

In other places, at the Bealtine, a trench was cut round the fire, the young men assembled in the circle, and cast lots who should be the threefold leaper. Before eating the consecrated oatcake, a libation, in heathen style, was poured upon the ground. The Scotch generally are not now so given to sacramentarianism. Dr. Donald Clark conceives that the Beltane is not derived from Baal.

The Isle of Man, coming more under the influence of Ireland than any neighbouring land, has survivals of the old worship. Waldron asserts, "Not a family in the old Island, of natives, but keeps a fire constantly burning—or the most terrible devastations and mischief would immediately ensue." Train, in his account of the people, writes—"Almost down to the present time, no native of the Isle of Man will lend anything on either of the great Druidical festivals."

The Deas-iul dance, anciently in honour of the sun, is still practised there, going, like the sun, from east to south in its course, not ear-tuia-iul, or going round by east to north. Fires were kept up on the first of November, as at Hallowe'en.

Plowden, another historian of the place, remarks that—"The Scotch, Irish, and Manx call the first day of May, Beiltein, or the day of Baal's fire." A newspaper of 1837 has this paragraph—"On May-day the people of the Isle of Man have, from time immemorial, burned all the whin bushes in the Island, conceiving that they thereby burn all the witches and fairies, which they believe take refuge there."

In like manner, in the Isle of Lewis, they had the custom of Dessil (right hand), or Dess, from carrying fire in the right hand about houses and the stock. When a murrain occurred among the cattle there, all fires were formerly put out, and a fresh flame obtained by the rubbing of two planks together.

The Gaelic Councils tried in vain to arrest this fire devotion. James I. of Scotland has left a poem on the custom—

"At Beltane, quhen ilk bodie bownis
To Peblis to the play—"

that is, at Beltane all went to the play or games at Peebles.

In Cornwall, another part under Irish influence, Midsummer Eve was kept up with fire rejoicings. At Penzance, until a few years ago, on that eve men carried two barrels on poles. Others had torches and rockets, and girls held flowers. All at once all joined hands, and ran through the streets, crying out, "An eye! an eye!"—when an eye was opened by a pair, and all passed through. The old country dance was one in the same style.

No one needs reminding how far Wales, long under Irish rule, had similar fire customs. At Newton Nottage, till very recently, people leaped through the Midsummer fires. Of this custom, Theodoret, in condemnation of it, admitted that it was held as an expiation of sin. Great fires were kept up formerly on the noonside rock of Brimham, a Yorkshire Druidical locality.

France, especially in Brittany, has survivals of fire-worship. Such fires were useful to bless the apple-trees, and forward the harvest. A Breton priest was once called Belec, which means a servant of Baal. Outside Paris, Baal fires were lighted on St. John's Eve. Flammarion, in 1867, wrote—"In the evening the bonfires in honour of the feast of St. John were lighted all around Angouleme, and men and women were dancing before them, and jumping over them almost all night."

Russia and India have their leaping through the flames. In the first, a straw figure of Kupalo, a sort of representative of vegetation, was thrown in the fire. Germans had a straw image of the god Thor. In Mexico, babes on their fourth day were passed through fire.

Sonnerat had this account of the Darma, a Feast of Fire in India:—"It lasts eighteen days, during which time those who make a vow to keep it must fast, abstain from women, lie on the bare ground, and walk on a brisk fire. On the eighteenth day, they assemble on the sound of instruments, their heads covered with flowers, the body daubed with saffron, and follow in cadence the figures of Darma Rajah and Dobrede his wife, who are carried there in procession. When they come to the fire, they stir it to animate its activity, and take a little of the ashes, with which they rub their foreheads; and when the gods have been three times round it, they walk, either fast or slow, according to their zeal, over a very hot fire, extended to about forty feet in length."

Fire-worship may be the purest form of idolatry; as flame, so nearly immaterial, ever moving, always aspiring, is a type of the spiritual,—is useful, although dangerous. But no form of idolatry could be more cruel than the fiery adoration of the grim Moloch. Symbols are agreeable to fancy, and often helpful; but they may, and repeatedly do, lead men to crass idolatry.

http://www.libraryireland.com/Druids/Beltane.php

Did you see the mentions of the solar dances? which are called deiseil, Deas-iul, the circular dances which follow the movement of the sun, from east to west, from left to right, rightward, clockwise?

Serbian word for right side is des, desno, desna. Irish word for right side is des. We also have Latin, Greek and Sanskrit dex. But Irish and Serbian are identical. And Serbs traditional, ritual dance, dances at every special occasion is the circular dance, kolo, oro, the sun dance. You can see it being danced around the may bush in the pictures i posted.

deiseil (scots gaelic)- in the direction of the apparent course of the sun; clockwise, to the right (desno in Serbian)

deas - right, south, Irish deas, Old Irish dess, Welsh deheu, Cornish dyghow, Middle Breton dehou, *dekso-s, *deksivo-s (Stokes); Latin dexter; Greek @Gdexió;s; Gothic taihsva; Lithuanian deszine@? (n.), Church Slavonic desi@unu@u, right; Sanskrit daksina-s.
deas, -eise, a., right (as opposed to left); mo lámh dheas, my right hand, etc.; also as subs., mo dheas agus mo chlé, my right and left; ar deis mo láimhe clé, convenient to my left hand.
deas, -eise, a., pretty, handsome, lovely, pleasant, nice; ready, dexterous, expert, proper, fit; b'é ba dheas chuige (also air), he was indeed expert at it.
deas, teas, theas, the south, the south side; an taobh dheas, the south side or quarter, when we face the east; cf. Deasmhumha, South Munster; tá sé theas i mBaile Bhoirne, he is in Ballyvourney in the south; andeas, from the south; tá an ghaoth andeas, there is a south
wind blowing; ódheas, southward.

Both words des and dexs have complete etymology in Serbian. This etymology is derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds, which were used to build first words. The difference is dialectic, and this same dialectic difference exists today between south east and north west dialects of Serbian.

des = d + e + s = where + is + sun = modern north west Serbian: de je sunce
deks = d + ga + s = where + pointing, goes, is + sun = modern south east Serbian: ku de ga sunce

d,t - sounds of hitting something solid, an object
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
s - sound of sizzling, heat, sun. The sound of crickets and grasshoppers and flying insects of the summer. The sound of a summer day.
ga - the sound made by sentry ravens which are dispatched around the flock when it lands on the ground, means danger coming. Also all big flocking birds of Europe, produce a sound like "ga". So the sound became sound used to mean up, and to mean "there it is"...
g - sound of pointing, direction but also of swallowing from up down into the throat.
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.


So des and dex literally mean where sun goes...Does this kind of Etymology exist in any other language? If you find one please post it here. Does it exist in Irish?


How is it possible that we have these pre Christian customs, like sun dance and may bush only in Irish lands and south Slavic lands? If someone has any information about these customs from any other part of Europe, please let me know.

According to 17th century historian Geoffrey Keating, there was a great gathering at the hill of Uisneach each Beltane in medieval Ireland, where a sacrifice was made to a god named Beil. Keating wrote that two bonfires would be lit in every district of Ireland, and cattle would be driven between them to protect them from disease.[8] There is no reference to such a gathering in the annals, but the medieval Dindsenchas includes a tale of a hero lighting a holy fire on Uisneach that blazed for seven years. Ronald Hutton writes that this may "preserve a tradition of Beltane ceremonies there", but adds "Keating or his source may simply have conflated this legend with the information in Sanas Chormaic to produce a piece of pseudo-history".[2] Nevertheless, excavations at Uisneach in the 20th century found evidence of large fires and charred bones, showing it to have been ritually significant.[2][9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane

How is it possible that Bel, Beli, (White in Slavic languages), becomes Irish god, when Bel has no meaning in Gaelic? How did you get Welsh god Beli? How did you get Belenos?

Belenos is bel + nos = white (light) + carry = bringer of light

I went into quite a bit of detail talking about the meaning of Bel, Ban meaning white, clean, beautiful here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057082812

Who brought this to Ireland and when? Not Romans for sure. But if we follow the trail of Vinca script, we see that it goes to, among other places, Phoenicia.

Phoenicia (UK /fɨˈnɪʃə/ or US /fəˈniːʃə/;[2] from the Greek: Φοινίκη, Phoiníkē; Arabic: فينيقية‎, Finiqyah) was an ancient Semitic civilization situated on the western, coastal part of the Fertile Crescent and centered on the coastline of modern Lebanon and Tartus Governorate in Syria. All major Phoenician cities were on the coastline of the Mediterranean, some colonies reaching the Western Mediterranean. It was an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread across the Mediterranean from 1550 BC to 300 BC. The Phoenicians used the galley, a man-powered sailing vessel, and are credited with the invention of the bireme.[3] They were famed in Classical Greece and Rome as 'traders in purple', referring to their monopoly on the precious purple dye of the Murex snail, used, among other things, for royal clothing, and for their spread of the alphabet (or abjad), from which almost all modern phonetic alphabets are derived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Phoenician alphabet is a descendant of a Vinca script. The capital city of Phoenicia was Tyre. Tyre is also the legendary birthplace of Europa and Elissa (Dido). The name of the city means "rock"[3] after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built. The adjective for Tyre is Tyrian, and the inhabitants are Tyrians.
Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban centers, Tyre itself, which was on an island just off shore, and the associated settlement of Ushu on the adjacent mainland. Alexander the Great connected the island to the mainland coast by constructing a causeway during his siege of the city,[7] demolishing the old city to reuse its cut stone.[8]
The original island city had two harbors, one on the south side and the other on the north side of the island. It was these two harbors that enabled Tyre to gain the maritime prominence that it did; the harbor on the north side of the island was, in fact, one of the best harbors on the eastern end of the Mediterranean. The harbor on the south side has silted over, but the harbor on the north side (see Tyre harbor photo to the right) is still in use.[9]
In ancient times, the island city of Tyre was heavily fortified (with defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high[10]) and the mainland settlement, originally called Ushu (later called Palaetyrus, meaning "Old Tyre," by the Greeks) was actually more like a line of suburbs than any one city and was used primarily as a source of water and timber for the main island city.[11] Josephus records that the two fought against each other on occasion,[12] although most of the time they supported one another because they both benefited from the island city's wealth from maritime trade and the mainland area's source of timber, water and burial grounds.
Tyre was founded around 2750 BC according to Herodotus and was originally built as a walled city upon the mainland.[13] Its name appears on monuments as early as 1300 BC. Philo of Byblos (in Eusebius) quotes the antiquarian authority Sanchuniathon as stating that it was first occupied by Hypsuranius. Sanchuniathon's work is said to be dedicated to "Abibalus king of Berytus"—possibly the Abibaal who was king of Tyre.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre_(Lebanon)

What is the word for land in Irish? It is tír, the only exact match to Tyra. If we look at word terra, meaning land in Latin we find this:

terra - land, earth, ground, the world

From Proto-Indo-European *ters- (“dry”). Cognates include Old Irish (and Irish) tír, Ancient Greek τέρσομαι (tersomai), Sanskrit तृष्यति (tṛṣyati) and Old English þurst (English thirst).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terra#Latin

In my Vinca thread, I already talked about ancient words for land Era and Gaea:


Where does the name Gaea come from?


This is what Eumelus of Corinth, Titanomachia Frag 1 (from Plotius) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek Epic C8th B.C.) says about Gaea:

"The Epic Cycle begins with the fabled union of Ouranos (Sky) and Ge (Earth), by which they make three Hekatontacheiroi (Hundred-handed) sons and three Kyklopes to be born to him."

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Gaia.html

In Irish we have this word:

cé - the earth, used only in the phrase an cruinne cé, the (round) earth, Irish, Early Irish cé, for bith ché, on this earth. The cé is supposed to be for "this", from the pronomial kei, Greek @Gkei@nnos, he, Latin ce, cis, English he. The root kei, go, move (Latin cio, Greek @Gkí;w), has also been suggested.

cè - give?
cè - spouse (Carm.), Irish cé:

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb07.html#cè;;

"open e" (è) pronounced like e in set.
"close e" (é) pronounced like e in the

In Serbian both sounds are pronounced in the same way like long e.


So the word cé, ché, kei (pronounces ke, kge) is an archaic word which means earth. This word also means to give, or what gives, and a spouse which is the root of a modern Irish word céile (spouse). These are all epithets of Goddess Gaea, mother earth, a spouse of the father sky who gives us everything that we need.

The modern Irish Éire (pronounced era) evolved from the Old Irish word Ériu, which was the name of a Gaelic goddess. Ériu is generally believed to have been the matron goddess of Ireland, a goddess of sovereignty, or simply a goddess of the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire

So Era is the same as Gea the "mother earth" which later became "mother Ireland" in Ireland or "mother Russia" in Russia. But the original Era was old Vinca situated on the territory of Serbia. People from western Serbia still call each other "Era" and are known to others in Serbia as "Ere". Era is a common personal name as well. This is the same area where we find Mountain and river Tara. There is also a word "erich" in an obscure dialect recorded in northern serbia in 19th century which means god and sky. You can go here to read more:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84933278&postcount=59

Tera has complete etymology in Serbian: tera = t + e + ra = solid + is + land, fertile, food, life. This etymology is derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds, which were used to build first words.

t - the sound of hitting the ground or a wood with your foot or hand. the sound of a solid object.
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
ra - composite word. basic meaning is the product of cutting.
r - sound of scraping, like when stone tool is used for cutting.
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, agresion, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.

So we can see that era = e + ra means is giver of life, food which exactly the same meaning as gaea. Gaea also has full etymology in Serbian derived from the base sounds of Serbian, the natural sounds:

gea = g + e + a = swallow, food + is + grow

g - the sound of swallowing from up down into the throat, also of pointing, direction in general
e - the meaning is "is, it is, here it is". i believe that it is a natural sound of presenting something to someone. Pronounced deeper means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness or loss of someone, something. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me
a - the sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. means up. things that are up, that grow.

So we can see that gea means giver of life, food as well.


Phoenician traded all along the Atlantic coast going to Baltic for Amber. Ireland was an important trade post, and particularly Galway. There are numerous claims from old antiquarians that Phoenicians were in Ireland. The Phoenicians established commercial outposts throughout the Mediterranean, the most strategically important being Carthage in North Africa, directly across the narrow straits. Ancient Gaelic mythologies attribute a Phoenician/Scythian influx to Ireland by a leader called Fenius Farsa.

Spanish historians add their testimony, and claim the Phoenicians as their principal colonizers. The Hispania Illustrata,a rare and valuable work, on which no less than sixty writers were engaged, fixes the date of the colonization of Spain by the Phoenicians at 764 A.C. De Bellegarde says: "The first of whom mention is made in history is Hercules, the Phoenician, by some called Melchant." It is alleged that he lived in the time of Moses, and that he retired into Spain when the Israelites entered the land of promise. This will be consistent with old accounts, if faith can be placed in the inscription of two columns, which were found in the province of Tingitane, at the time of the historian Procopius.[5] A Portuguese historian, Emanuel de Faria y Sousa, mentions the sailing of Gatelus from Egypt, with his whole family, and names his two sons, Iberus and Himerus, the first of whom, he says, "some will have to have sailed into Ireland, and given the name Hibernia to it."

Indeed, so strong has been the concurrent testimony of a Phoenician colonization of Ireland from Spain, and this by independent authorities, who could not have had access to our bardic histories, and who had no motive, even had they known of their existence, to write in confirmation of them, that those who have maintained the theory of a Gaulish colonization of Ireland, have been obliged to make Spain the point of embarkation.

In the work Barber Project, there are claims that Phoenician cultural traces were found in eastern USA, the same place where substantial Indian R1 population was found. The work also claims that Phoenicians just continued using the ancient trans Atlantic trade route used by early Copper producers to transport copper from rich pure copper mines around great lakes to Europe. We know that huge amounts of copper were mined and smelted in the great lakes area, but very little of it was found in America. Where did the rest go? We know that megalithic civilization flourished in great lakes area identical to contemporary megalithic civilization from Europe. Who built it? We now know that high concentration of R1a was found in Indian population in the same area. We now know it was Vincans who discover copper and who probably established mining and trading network all over the reachable world. But if you want to sail to north west America from Europe, you will definitely stop in Ireland, particularly because Ireland had it's own rich copper deposits. Could it have been that this is how some of the common Irish Serbian language arrived to Ireland? With first Vinca metal workers? You can find brief discussion on Neolithic European Americans here, as well as the link to Berber Project work:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87872768&postcount=12

So did Phoenicians come to Ireland and brought their god Baal, Bel, Beli, White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal


But maybe there were contacts during Roman times and post Roman times with central Europeans as well as i talked about on Vinca thread.

Who was Ailill mac Máta the the king of the Connachta and the husband of queen Medb in the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology, who ruled from Cruachan (Rathcroghan in County Roscommon)?

The sagas explain mac Máta as a matronymic: his mother is Máta Muirisc, daughter of Mága, of the Fir Ol nÉcmacht, a tribal grouping of Connacht, through whom he claimed the throne of the Connachta. His father is Rus Ruad, king of the Laigin, whose other sons include Cairbre Nia Fer, king of Tara, Find Fili, who succeeded him as king of the Laigin, and in some texts Cathbad, chief druid of Conchobar mac Nessa of the Ulaid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailill_mac_M%C3%A1ta

So we have someone from the clan of Mata, whose father was called Rus Ruad, who was the king of Laigin. Remember all i wrote about Laigin and their link to central Europe?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

The father of Ailill mac Mata was called Rus Ruad? Rus means fair reddish, coppery, Ruad means dark reddish, bloody. Strange name don't you think? Is this related to copper people? Or much later people of Mata, like for instance SarMata, Sarmatians.

sar - the best
saor - free

Sar means the best, the elite. It is the same word that means imperial, kingly, royal (zar, tsar, car). Were Sarmatae the elite of Matae? Were they the Royal Scythians? Russians and other eastern Slavs claim direct descent from them.

But word sar, ser also means protector, the guard. Were sarmatae the protectors of mata, mother land...

The Sarmatians (Latin: Sarmatæ or Sauromatæ, Greek: Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται) ...Their territory, which was known as Sarmatia to Greco-Roman ethnographers, corresponded to the western part of greater Scythia (mostly modern Ukraine and Southern Russia, also to a smaller extent north eastern Balkans around Moldova). At their greatest reported extent, around 100 BC, these tribes ranged from the Vistula River to the mouth of the Danube and eastward to the Volga, bordering the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as the Caucasus to the south.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians



Did some of these Ser Mata Rus, protectors, rulers, soldiers of mother Russia find their way into Ireland? And if they did when did they do it? Before or after Romans? There is awful lot of Scythian like art and cultural traits in northern parts of Ireland. Irish annals talk about Scythians settling in Ireland. How did they get there and when? And are these holy warriors, the protectors of the land or Rus, Russia, Ras, Rascia (the old name of Serbia) the same military elite we see deified on the frescoes of Serbian monasteries?

Anyway, enough from me for this week. Talk soon.

randomperson12

i sday most of these celtic countries where flattened by the romans when they extended over towards asia

Ipso

I'd take any talk of links to Scythia with a massive grain of salt. Its just a way to connect to the bible as Noah's via grand son Japheth.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml

dublinviking

I'd take any talk of links to Scythia with a massive grain of salt. Its just a way to connect to the bible as Noah's via grand son Japheth.

I don't say these things based on Irish annals. I say that Irish annals say that there was settlement from Scythia because archaeological and ethnological data prove it. When I say Scythians, I include here Sarmatians who settle in large numbers in England and Wales, during and after Roman invasions of Britain. South Baltic, Pomerania, Fomoria, was a Slavic (Scythian, Sarmatian, Serbian) land at that time...I believe that there was a significant presence of Scythians in the north of the country in Early medieval time. I will talk about it soon. It is related with the snake and dragon worship. Both animals, which are sacred to Serbs and Scythians are demonized almost everywhere else in Europe....Irish tradition, as far as I could find, has extremely negative attitude towards both snakes and Dragons. So did the other "Celts" (or should we say Gaels). So who were the snakes and dragons (piasts) who Patrick and his Fenians drove out of Ireland?

Ipso

Snakes were a symbol for paganism.

dublinviking

Ipso

Snakes were a symbol for paganism.

What does this mean? Why is the snake the symbol of paganism? Which paganism? There was no god called "Pagan" whose symbol was snake. What religion did Irish have before Patrick? That is still unclear. Don't just throw these kind of remarks without explanation, because they are meaningless. Do you know where word Pagan, meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian" comes from? This is what wiktionary tells us:

Recorded in English since c1375. From Latin pāgānus (“rural, rustic”), later "civilian". The meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian" arose in Vulgar Latin, probably from the 4th century.[1] It is unclear whether this usage is derived primarily from the "rustic" or from the "civilian" meaning, which in Roman army jargon meant 'clumsy'. As a self-designation of neopagans attested since 1990.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pagan

At the time when the term arose with a meaning "not (Judeo-)Christian", most people who "(Judeo-)Christians" met in the countryside (peasants) believed in "bog", "baga", "boga", "buga" the old agricultural good of Europe Dabog, Crom Dubh. Look up Sanskrit bhaga, a term for "lord, patron", but also for "wealth, prosperity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaga

So while town people, the ruling class prayed to Christ, outside of the city walls peasants prayed to boga, baga, buga, bhaga, so they were called bogani, bagani, bugani. In the Balkans where b changed to p we still use Pagan and Pogan. Pogan also means filthy, dirty, peasant...In England Bugan turned to bogeyman, the old god buga, boga who became devil...

A bogeyman (also spelled bogieman, or boogeyman) is a mythical creature in many cultures used by adults to frighten children into compliant behaviour.

The word bogey is derived from the Middle English bogge/bugge (also the origin of the word bug), and so is generally thought to be a cognate of the German bögge, böggel-mann (English "Bogeyman"). The word could also be linked to many similar words in other European languages: bogle (Scots), boeman (Dutch), Butzemann (German), busemann (Norwegian), bøhmand (Danish), bòcan, púca, pooka or pookha (Irish), pwca, bwga or bwgan (Welsh), puki (Old Norse), pixie or piskie (Cornish), puck (English), lidérc or mumus (Hungarian), bogu (Slavonic), buka (Russian, бука), bauk (Serbian), baubas (Lithuanian), baubau (Romanian), babau (Italian), bida (Polish), papão or sarronco (Portuguese), torbalan (Bulgarian), Μπαμπούλας (Greek).[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman

See what happens to old gods when "(Judeo-)Christians" take over? Your Dia Baal (Baal god, Beli god, White god) becomes Diabaal devil....

In the Balkans in the early medieval times, there even used to be a country called Pagania, the country of Pagans, Bagans, people who still prayed to Baga, Bog:

The Narentines (Greek: (Ν)αρεντάνοι - (N)arentanoi, Croatian: Neretvani, Serbian: Neretljani/Неретљани, Italian: Narentani, Narentini) was an ethnonym of a South Slavic tribe that occupied an area of southern Dalmatia west of the river Neretva or "Narenta". They were known for their piracy, so they are today known as the Neretva pirates. Some sources referred to their realm as Pagania (Паганија, Paganija) because they were pagan. The tribe ceased to be recognized as standalone after their Christianization in the 9th century, and particularly after the Venetian crackdown at the turn of the 10th century.

De Administrando Imperio by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), says that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized."[3]
It has been suggested that the label of "pirates" was applied by the victorious Venetians following the Battle at Cape Mika.[4]
The region was also, considerably later, referred to as a part of Red Croatia,[5] in the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja written in 1298-1300 by a Catholic monk.[6][7][8]
A strange republic of Servian pirates arose at the mouth of the Narenta. In the 10th century description of Dalmatia by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (De Administrando Imperio, 29-37), this region is called Pagania, from the fact that its inhabitants had only accepted Christianity about 890, or 250 years later than the other Slavs. These Pagani, or Narentani (Narentines), utterly defeated a Venetian fleet despatched against them in 887, and for more than a century exacted tribute from Venice itself. In 998 they were finally crushed by the doge Pietro Orseolo II., who assumed the title duke of Dalmatia, though without prejudice to Byzantine suzerainty.

— Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania

And Serbs consider the snake (zmija) and dragon (zmaj, male zmija) holy animals. So bogan, bagans also worshiped snakes and dragons. Can you show me any evidence that Irish or any other "Celts" worshiped (respected, venerated, not hated) snakes? Then you can say that snake is symbol of Irish Paganism.

dublinviking

I have been researching the origin of the language for past few years, through the comparative analysis of the old European cultures and Languages, particularly South Slavic (Serbian) and Irish. I have concluded that the original language was based on natural sound which people either heard around them or were able to make themselves. The main carriers of information are individual sounds, vowels and consonants. Syllables are already carriers of complex combined information. Among the sounds the vowels are carriers of emotional information, and consonants are carriers of factual information. Knowing the meaning of sounds and syllables you can split words into their original building blocks and get true etymologies.

Analyzing Serbian and Irish language, i was able to conclude that this original language is still preserved and can be reconstructed fairly easily.

Analyzing Vinca script I was able to confirm that the the meaning of these sounds is reflected in the letter of the oldest human Alphabet.

I am sending you here the vowel classification based on my research. Please let me know what you think.

o - Neutral emotion. Used in pointing at objects that are not threatening or at people or animals under our control. Also used for ordering direction of movement. Gave rise to letter o from shape of the our mouth when we say o. Sound "ooooo" when we see something. In Serbian root sound for o (about, around), ko (who, like), oko (eye)...Root sound of word "go" meaning neutral object and also an order to someone or something to move in horizontal direction...

u - Raised emotional state, desire, want if positive, pain, discomfort if negative. Used to describe penetrating movement and actions as well position of something inside of something else. Used to describe emotion of want, desire, greed, lust. sound "uuuuuuuuu" when we admire something that we want for ourselves. Gave rise to letter u,y. The shape of valeys (uvala in Serbian) and other holes including our mouth. Shape of female pubic area (Y) and vagina (U) as well as male organ used to penetrate into vagina (U). Serbian word for in (u), uvo (ear), usta (mouth), both things where things go into our body...Root sound for word "gu" meaning her, female and for pointing downword.

a - The sound of high levels of agitation, aggression, rising tension, warning. Used to describe emotion of aggression inspired by fear, defensive aggression. If positive it describes assertion, bravery, fearlessness. If negative it describes dismay, panic, fear. Used for pointing upwards, and at distance, at things, people animals we fear, like god or enemies or wild beasts. Because it describes raising emotions and things which are more powerful then us, above us, it represents up, growth, sky. Gave rise to letter A from a point of a spear, aroused penis head, pointing upwards, mountain peaks. Sound "aaaa" when we figure something out. Shout "aaaaaaaa!" when we are trying to scare something the we can not control and we can't just kill. Sound "aaaaaaaaa!" when we are running scared from that same thing, after our fake attack didn't scare it. Serbian word "na" (meaning on up) as opposed "un" (in down). Root sound for word "ga" meaning him, male.

e - The meaning is "is, it is, here it is". A natural sound of presenting something to someone. short sound "e" when you give something to someone. Serbian word "evo, eve, eto ete" meaning there you go. Pronounced deeper, e means highest possible aggression with intent to gain, kill, and pronounced higher means highest possible sorrow, pain caused by severe illness which looks as if it is going to kill us, or by loss of someone very precious, like a member of a family or something very precious like a home. So gaining, loosing and presenting = is, it is, here it is. Shout ej = e + j = e + ja = it is + me. Sound of growling, showing your teeth before immanent attack. Gave rise to letter E ш, from the shape of bared teeth. Root sound for Serbian words "ge, ke, gde, de" meaning where is it (what we want)?

i - Highest possible level of emotion. Hysteria, utter devastation, loosing your mind, ecstasy. Used to express extreme emotional states usually group emotional states, where emotions of each individual feed the group emotional flame. Like during funerals, processions, religious celebrations, births. Connected with death and birth, continuation. Used to release the worst emotions and to allow us to continue with our life. Word "i" means "and, continue" in Serbian. Gave rise to letter I from a post, mark, stake, totem pole, around which ceremonies are held. Sound of sqeeeeling, waiiiiiiling at funerals, but also the sound of the scream of a mother giving birth, which is a mixture of a and i...root sound for word "gi" meaning them, group, family.


This is the base of Serbian language, sounds expressing emotions. These sounds are then mixed with consonants to create words carrying meaning. But hidden under a meaning we still have emotions, carried through these five vowels. We can see how emotionally tainted the language is from just these words used for pointing (looking at) in the southern dialect of Serbian:

go - neutral, child, domestic animal, something we control
gu - female, woman, desire, things we want
ga - male, man, aggression cause by fear, things we don't control
ge, ke, gde, de - where is the thing we want. give it to us.
gi - group, group emotions, family, cooperation, sacrifice,

The gradation of emotion carried by consonants is:

increase of emotional charge: ouaei
decrese of emotional charge: ieauo

We can see this clearly from the exclamation sounds used by people every day:

The following are active sounds, used while the situation is happening, to describe our emotions triggered by the world around us:

ooo - o there it is, o I see (acknowledgment)
uuu - u this is great (i want it)
aaa - a! you scared me, aaa there it is, aaa so that's the secret (surprise, scary or nice)
eee - e come on, e i don't have it (possession, threat)
iii - hysteria, uncontrollable fear or happiness

These are different laughs carrying different emotional message:

hohoho - Santa Clause, good natured, laughing together
huhuhu - notty, mischievous
hahaha - laughing without caring what people think, laughing at people
hehehe - sinister, dangerous, conspiratorial, mean
hihihi - just before you pee in your pants, when something is fall on the ground funny or when someone is tickling you, sniggering in a group behind someone's back

The following are passive sounds, used to describe the aftermath of a situation, and used to release accumulated emotions:

hoooo - mild frustration with small problem, forward looking
huuuu - lots of problems, hard work, but still not giving up, forward looking
haaaa - too many problems, giving up, present
eh - remembering something that failed recently and you wish it didn't, feeling sorry for yourself. recent past
ih - remembering something that failed long time ago. feeling bitter. distant past

This ability of vowels to carry and remove emotion is used in healing sounds techniques in China and India.

aoum - the sacred sound of Buddhism. A - outside, O surface of the body, U inside of the body, M core. M is the only sound that can be made with your mouth closed. This is why it is a core sound of words that mean me, my, myself. So the above mantra brings our focus from outside into our core, (m)ind by using emotional discharge through descending vowels.

It is also used in everyday speech:

halo = ao = reduce tension, friendly
zdravo = ao = reduce tension, friendly
ciao = ao = reduce tension, friendly

Sound of pain "iao" reduses stress.

iiiha - calming the horse down

English "Hi" actually means Hi, hysterical, the opposite of calming.

Engilsh "How do you do" expresses our formality and business like relationship. I am here on business, because i want something from you and we are equal...

Serbian greeting "gde si ti!" expresses happiness to find someone, to form a group. E find, I group, emotions rising. The old south Serbian version is even more descriptive: "gu de si ti" = in where you are = uei = in, lost, buried, invisible + looking, wanting + seeing, found, exist + together, group, release of fear



Slavic battle cry Ura - ua - arousing emotions to the point of aggression
Japanese battle cry Bansai - ai - arousing emotions to the point passed aggression, to the point of sacrifice
kiiiil hiiim - group hysteria, mob hysteria

It is interesting to see how different culture view themselves differently:

Slavic Ja = Ia = god, group, me, submission to group, god
English I = aI = me, god, group, domination over group, god
German Ich = I = domination of the group, no me
Japanese Watashi, I = ai = me, group, god, domination over group, god, but also the opposite, complete submission to group, god
Irish me = e = internalized, hidden aggression
French je = ie = group aggression
Latin, Greek ego = eo = aggression, both personal and group, objects, materialism


Just by saying "I" in your own language you show what your epigenetic emotional charge is...


There has been a lot of research done in this field as i discovered today. It seems that i am on the right track here...They already use vowels to automatically detect emotions in speech analysis engines...

Recently, automatic emotion recognition from speech has achieved growing interest within the human-machine interaction research community. Most part of emotion recognition methods use context independent frame-level analysis or turn-level analysis. In this article, we introduce context dependent vowel level analysis applied for emotion classification. An average first formant value extracted on vowel level has been used as unidimensional acoustic feature vector. The Neyman-Pearson criterion has been used for classification purpose. Our classifier is able to detect high-arousal emotions with small error rates. Within our research we proved that the smallest emotional unit should be the vowel instead of the word. We find out that using vowel level analysis can be an important issue during developing a robust emotion classifier. Also, our research can be useful for developing robust affective speech recognition methods and high quality emotional speech synthesis systems.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6012003&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D6012003

I am curious what you think about all of this.

slowburner

You might not be aware of this Boards.ie forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=848
It might be worthwhile posting some of your etymological material there too.
We used to have an authority on matters of this kind but sadly, he has taken a break from Boards to write a book.

dubhthach

Ipso wrote: »

I think R1b-p312 and it's subgroups correlate better with its spread in Western Europe.

I would go further to P312 parent R1b-L11. This is the "parent" of two major subclades namely P312 and U106. With P312 showing highest distrubition in areas traditionally either Italic or Celtic speaking and U106 showing highest levels in the Germanic world.

A simplified map that Dr. Michael Hammer presented at the FTDNA conference late last year:



Of course there is one clade of P312 that is associated with Scandinavia (namely L238).

In case of Ireland the dominant clade of P312 is marked by SNP L21, with DF27 coming distant second. It's the reverse in Iberia in comparison.

dublinviking

So what is the estimated entry date for Arbins into Europe?

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

So what is the estimated entry date for Arbins into Europe?

Arbins? now there's a makey-up term from Klyosov.

The oldest R1b known from Europe is Bell Beaker and dated to approx 2600-2500 BC from Germany. Unfortunately they only tested it for M269 and U106 (which it was - for). So we don't know if they were P312+ or even L11+.

dublinviking

Arbins? now there's a makey-up term from Klyosov.

It is as good as term Arians. Arians (RIa) Arbins (RIb). I think it should have been Aribins...:)

So how do we know they came from Asia minor over Balkans and not from central Asia via Black Sea steppe, which is much more logical route if the oldest Arbins are found at the edge of the European Steppe, and if they came from Asia?

Is it also not possible, that Arbins entered Europe from the North Western Atlantic, via Ireland and Britain, to Germanic lands of lowlands and Frisland?

If this is diagram of the spreading of the Bell beaker culture:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Why and how do you draw the diagram you posted earlier, showing the entry point into Europe to be the Balkans? Is this based on some clairvoyant knowledge or wish, rather then facts? The spreading of Bell beakers from North Africa, West of Europe, then to the north west of Europe and finally into Central and Eastern Europe seems much more likely.

Can you please explain this discrepancy between the archaeological, genetic, linguistic data, which all show concentration of Arbin genes, languages and culture diminishing from west to east, and your map which shows that they entered Europe from the Balkans? Wouldn't have they left some trace from Bosforus to Germany?

dubhthach

The Diagram was created by Dr. Michael Hammer who used it in his presentation:

Mike Hammer is FTDNA's Chief Scientist, and member of the Scientific Advisory Board.
A Biotechnology Research Scientist at the University of Arizona with appointments in the Department of Anthropology and the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, as well as Director of the Genomic Analysis and Technology Core facility, Dr. Hammer received his PhD in Genetics from the University of California at Berkeley and was a post-doctoral fellow at Princeton and Harvard Universities. He co-authored the first paper showing that present-day Cohanim are descended from a single male ancestor.

It's based on plenty of studies showing the distrubition of subclades of R1b-M269. Such as: Busby (2011)

Let alone the fact that FTDNA are the official lab used by the National Geographic for the Genographic project.

The term Aryan is specifically derived from Sanskrit: आर्य (ā́rya). This word is a cognate to the Irish Aire. They both derive from Proto-Indo European: *h₄eryós

As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European.

The highest diversity of subclades of R1b is in the east. As you go westward the diversity drops off the cliff. However you see a massive increase in raw numbers. So for example 70%+ of Irish men are specifically R1b-L21 (nearly all belonging to superclade DF13), which is generally dated as been 3,500-4,000 years old.

Nearly all Western European R1b belongs to specific subclades of R1b-M269. Specifically: L11. The descent of which is mapped
M269 -> L23 -> L51 -> L11

Using data such as from Busby it's possible to map the distrubition of specific subclades across Eurasia. Regarding migration path I'm not sure I agree with Dr. Hammer's out of Anatolia. Of course for the purposes of his presentation he may have been just using the "South-East" as general source. What's evident is that highest diversity of M269 is the Armenian Plateau and general wider Caucasian area.

The question then is did subclades of it expanded via Anatolia or "circumnavigated" the Black Sea using the Pontic Steppe. One theory on this been that you then saw a spilt near the mouth of Danube with one group heading up Danuabe and other entering Western Anatolia from the Balkans.

Ipso

Doesn't he include Picts as Arbins?

dublinviking

The term Aryan is specifically derived from Sanskrit: आर्य (ā́rya). This word is a cognate to the Irish Aire. They both derive from Proto-Indo European: *h₄eryós. As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European....As far as I know "Arbin" is a made-up term with no connection to Proto-Indo-European...

If you didn't get it from the smiley face, am joking. I think you should try to see the funny and poetic side of all this.
I know that Arian is ancient term.
But don't you think that it is a kind of poetic Justice to discover that Arians are RIa people? The old untermensch of the wanna be Arians from Germany and England who turned out to be non Arians...
Isn't it funny that Slavs (R1a) the "Barbarians who came to Europe from the steppe and destroyed our European cultured paradise", turned out to be the original Europeans?
And the Cultured western Europeans turned out to be the barbarians who burst into Europe looking for heads for their spears? Not that R1b people did that. I will explain further down.
Isn't it even funnier that Serbs, from the land that Germans, once they cleared it from Serbs, wanted to call Eugenia, turned out to be genetic descendants of one of the oldest European genetic groups? And probable descendants of Vinca people, the first European civilization. And to know that Germans wanted to exterminate Serbians because they were barbaric race which never contributed anything to the European culture (with approval from the British, and particularly Churchil who though the same)...

I find all this really funny. I don't care about who is who. I never did my genetic test. I have no idea what genetic type anyone i know is. And it doesn't matter. I am glad that Serbia, which was always welcoming to everyone, is the most genetically mixed place in Europe. The more the merrier. But it seems that people get really angry when their preconceptions get challenged by facts.

I don't actually care very much for bold letters and titles. I care about data. And data says no traces of Bell Beaker people in the Balkans. And I can tell you why. Look at the geography of the Balkans. Lots of rivers, lots of mountains, lots of bad people with lots of weapons. Very bad for people on horses and later chariots. This is why they all stayed east and north of Carpatian mountains and Danube. This is why old Balkan cultures survived until today. This is why you have an island of I2a in the sea of R1 (A and . So I really doubt that there was any Balkan rout into Europe. If Arbins came from Armenia, then they came via Black sea steppe, like Huns after them. But they could equally have come from Central Asia, via Asia minor, via north Africa to west of Europe as well as via Black Sea steppe. Maybe the original Bell beakers came via the sea. And the later waves came via the steppe with the steppe people invasions of the migration period. Not everyone had to come at the same time. The fact that the concentration is the highest in the West of Europe surely points to the fact that Arbins have been in that part of Europe the longest?

Once established in north west Europe, they could have attacked south of Europe and the Balkans. These invasions are well documented with Celtic invasion of the Balkans and Asia minor one of the ways of spreading the genes below Danube. If genes in the south east are older then the ones in the north west, this does not necessarily mean that the spreading was from south east to north west. At the time of Celtic and migration period invasions, whole clans went together, including women and children. No one stayed at home. So it is entirely possible that some clans with the oldest genes just moved south and settled in the Balkans and in Asia minor during Celtic invasions of the south eastern Europe. And maybe the oldest clans never left central Asia until the migration period and only then moved to south of Europe with Huns, Tatars and Slavs. And maybe some of them moved down to Asia minor and later entered Europe with Turks? It is also possible that a lot of R1b people came to Europe with Macedonians and Romans and settled in the Balkans, bringing old subclades with them. We can't exclude any of these migration options.

Again look at the distribution map of R1b:



How is this possible if the main body of the Arbin people came through the Balkans? And how did they enter western Europe through the wall of R1a people living above Danube all the way to Baltic?

Did Arbins prosper because they were nomads, shepherds and they survived the sudden climate changes which devastated agricultural population of Europe several times over? Do you remember what i wrote about the flood in Vinca thread:

In the book "The Secrets of the Irish Landscape" we read that according to the dendrochronological research done in Ireland on Irish bog Oaks, during the period between 2354 bc and 2345 bc the oaks completely stopped growing and showed bark changes which indicate that they were submerged in water. It seems that it started to rain and it didn't stop for 10 years. This caused complete failure and disappearance of the existing stone age culture due to crop failure. After the rain stopped we see the old culture being replaced by the beaker culture in a sharp artifact cut. Interestingly in the annals of four masters we find this:

The Age of the World, 2545. Rudhruidhe, son of Parthalon, was drowned in Loch Rudhruidhe, the lake having flowed over him; and from him the lake is called.

The Age of the World, 2546. An inundation of the sea over the land at Brena in this year, which was the seventh lake eruption that occurred in the time of Parthalon; and this is named Loch Cuan.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100005A/

The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Archbishop of Armagh (Church of Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with young Earth creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago by God as described in the first two chapters of the Biblical book of Genesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

The reason why i am mentioning Ussher chronology is that in his list of dates the date for the biblical flood to 2348 bc, right in the middle of the above major weather event.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/world-born-4004-bc

But the bible and the Irish are not the only ones to record this event.

In Chinese records we read that after there were 9 years of rain after 2346 bc.

Mayans talk about big floods and rain in 236o.

Something major weather wise has happened in the middle of the 3rd millennium bc. Did that wipe out the original agricultural R1a and I2 agricultural population from the north of Europe, freeing the land for the expansion of the first wave of R1b shepherds?

The same thing happened around 800 BC, when all the bog bodies were deposited across northern Europe, because of the sudden change of climate to wet and cold climate, which devastated local agricultural population again.

In Serbia, R1a, I2, R1b people have been living side by side for millenniums. R1a and I2 predominantly in valleys and agricultural flat lands working the land, and R1b in the mountains minding their flocks. There was never any animosity among them because there was no competition for resources. I believe that we had the same situation in the rest of Europe, but the balance was destroyed not by war but by climate change.

What do you think?

randomperson12

those arows from spain to france to ireland thasts why weve loads of spanish stuff in kerry including dexters cows

dublinviking

A Runic calendar (also Rune staff or Runic Almanac) is a perpetual calendar based on the 19 year long Metonic cycle of the Moon. Runic calendars were written on parchment or carved onto staves of wood, bone, or horn. The oldest one known, and the only one from the Middle Ages, is the Nyköping staff from Sweden, believed to date from the 13th century. Most of the several thousand which survive are wooden calendars dating from the 16th and the 17th centuries. During the 18th century, the Runic calendars had a renaissance, and around 1800, such calendars were made in the form of tobacco boxes in brass.
A typical Runic calendar consisted of several horizontal lines of symbols, one above the other.
Special days like solstices, equinoxes, and celebrations (including Christian holidays and feasts) were marked with additional lines of symbols.
The calendar does not rely on knowledge of the length of the tropical year or of the occurrence of leap years. It is set at the beginning of each year by observing the first full moon after the winter solstice. The first full moon also marked the date of Disting, a pagan feast and a fair day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_calendar

This is what I was talking about at the very beginning of my writing about ancient solar lunar calendars:

In mountains of Serbia, in the 20th century, peasants carried with them a year stick. It was a stick with a notch for every day and a cross for major holy days, which in Serbia are all linked to major agricultural events. Every day that was gone was cut off from the stick. Very simple way to track time. But to do this effectively, you need to know:

1. when does the year start
2. how many full moons there are in a year
3. how many days there are in a moon
4. how many full extra days there are after the end of the last full moon

Once you know this, you can make the your stick calendar.

How do you determine all the above? First you realize that there is a day and a night. And that as each night passes, moon changes. Then one night moon become full. You start marking the full moons "u štap" together with the number of nights between full moons. You realize that there is a cycle. 28 or 29 days cycle of moon changing. You start calling this period moon (mesec in Serbian). At the same time you notice that the sun is changing in a longer cycle. It gets higher over the horizon and hotter and then lower and colder. So You find a level place from where you can observe the sunrise and sunset all year round. You then use a stick, a post and stick it into the ground. Then you use a rope and another stick to mark a circle around the central post. You use the center of the circle as a static observation point. You build a circular rampart using sticks, stakes to mark the circle's edge. You observe the sunrise movement, and when it stops moving in the winter you mark the point on the rampart with a really tall stick. Or you make a gate, the sun gate. You can do that in the winter solstice. Now you have your year starting point. You connect the center of the circle with the point of the solstice by drawing a line, a time line. Then from the winter solstice starting point, you count number of days in a moon, and you mark it "u štap" in a stick. You can do this by cutting notches into a stick or by placing a stick in line along the line of time. The last "u štap", full moon before the winter solstice marker, tells you how many moons there are in a year. Then you have dead days until the winter solstice. These are the days where everyone is at the sun circle, celebrating the sun turning. These are still taboo days in Serbia. You count these days as well. You can mark the whole thing with circular or linear stakes, and later stones, so you don't forget it. Then you cut your calendar stick and everyone goes away until the end of the stick (year) when they all come back to get the new calendar.

Serbian calendar stick Raboš, Rvaš, rabuš, rovaš, rozaljka, riza. The word means cut, notch, sign (eg, as a cut on an ear of a pig marking the ownership), account, smartness, password. The word comes from Slavic noun "rov" meaning ditch, trench, a cut made in something solid, and verb "rovati" meaning to make cuts, or from verb ris, riz meaning to cut.



Slavic calendar (Raboš) from Kiev 4th century ad, reading left to right



Raboš from Croation island of Olib reading right to left. Raboš was also used for making notes of debts, stocks. They were used like primitive memory sticks.



Calendar from Plovdiv, Bulgaria



One of the characteristics of early Slavic writing systems is that they wrote using foreign letters and "cuts and notches" as first Christian missionaries noted. They also wrote and read from both left to right and right to left.

Another Raboš calendar from Bulgaria:



Does this remind anyone of ogham?

The etymology of the word ogam or ogham remains unclear and has no meaning in Gaelic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham

As I already said here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85915234&postcount=150

Ogam has clear etymology in Serbian. "Kam, Kamen" means stone in Serbian. "o" can among other things mean on, on something. "o kam" means on stone. So Ogam, Okam means on stone, writing on stones. What is interesting is that most ogam inscription represent names of people and their ancestors. Ogam stones are clearly either grave marks or tribute marks, or curse marks. In Serbian word for "read" is "čitaj" pronounced cheetay. This is a compound word composed from "čij + taj" pronounced cheeytay meaning "who(se) is this". Whose stone is this? Whose mark is this? Finding out who this is was the point of reading ogam.

cfuserkildare

Hey mate,

Just a quick question possibly related especially to the comment at the top of the page here.

How does the possible migration from eastern europe to Ireland connect with the Picts?
I ask this, basing my question on the idea commonly accepted, that the Picts are not related other european races, but closer to north africa / arab races?

Ipso

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey mate,

Just a quick question possibly related especially to the comment at the top of the page here.

How does the possible migration from eastern europe to Ireland connect with the Picts?
I ask this, basing my question on the idea commonly accepted, that the Picts are not related other european races, but closer to north africa / arab races?

Pict was just a name given by the Romans to the people who lived in the part of Britan they had not conquered. The name comes from the form of body painting that people beyond the wall still continued as it died out in parts of Roman Britain. They spoke a p celtic language.
A lot of the mystery toward them seems to come from their Scythian origin myth.