Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory

dublinviking

cfuserkildare

Picts, Pruteni, Cruithin have many cultural similarities with Scythians. Also the area of Pictland has High R1a haplogroup presence, which may have arrived with Vikings or Scythians before them. The tattooing was practiced by both, and the type of drowings found on pictish artifacts is very similar to tattoos found on Scythian ice bodies and on Scythian artifacts.

It is very very interesting that the Laigin tribes from Connacht are O'Haras and O'Garas, which literally means the people of the spear. It is very interesting that they are being connected to Cruithin (Pruteni) as it is now emerging that Cruithin (Pruteni) are linked to I2a haplogroup and therefore to the central Europe.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84618024&postcount=28

Also have a look at this. The link between Ulster Irish and Cruithin and their link to South Baltic western Slavs (Serbs) through common dwelling type (lake dwellings, cranogs).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85296646&postcount=89

But there was another culture present in Scotland which did have links to North Africa and that is the round tower culture.

cfuserkildare

Hi Dublinviking,

I may be understanding this wrong, but the Picts were in Scotland 1000 years before the Vikings were they not?

Or do you mean the spread as it is now?

( Genetics is not my strongpoint)

dublinviking

Picts were in Scotland 1000 years before the Vikings were they not?

Not really. They overlap somewhere between 4 - 9 century ad. Look at the last link I sent you. About Irish, Viking, Pictish kingdoms in Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is quite interesting. This is the same area where we find Scythian Baba (progenitor) statues. Look at boa Island. I have pile of material on this, but got completely distracted (thank god) by Ezra's Vedic comments and ended up where i am now. I promise to get back to the whole Picts, Scythians, Cruithin soon.

cfuserkildare

Hi Dublinviking,

There is something that most people overlook in Scotland,
The country is basically cut into 3 seperate sub-cultures, even now it still manifests itself.
Highlands / Lowlands / Borders.

The 3 are pretty much independant from each other, I wonder how this relates to the above?

For example, Lowland Scots never spoke the Gaelic, Highlanders are closer to Vikings (not Geographically). Borders Scots are an entity unto themselves.

Wren A. Magreet

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Highlanders are closer to Vikings (not Geographically).

I thought highlanders are more closely related to the Gaels?

cfuserkildare

Hi Wren A. Magreet,

Yes, basically a mix between Gael and Nordic, whereas the lowlanders were of seperate origins again.

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

cfuserkildare

Picts, Pruteni, Cruithin have many cultural similarities with Scythians. Also the area of Pictland has High R1a haplogroup presence, which may have arrived with Vikings or Scythians before them. The tattooing was practiced by both, and the type of drowings found on pictish artifacts is very similar to tattoos found on Scythian ice bodies and on Scythian artifacts.



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84618024&postcount=28

Also have a look at this. The link between Ulster Irish and Cruithin and their link to South Baltic western Slavs (Serbs) through common dwelling type (lake dwellings, cranogs).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85296646&postcount=89

But there was another culture present in Scotland which did have links to North Africa and that is the round tower culture.

What round towers? The Brochs , that are associated with the Picts/ people beyond the reach of Rome?

Here is an article on the language.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture/scots-leid/4265-the-language-of-the-picts

Something on tribe names.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celticscothighlands.shtml


What is pre pictish? People didn't arrive in what is now Scotland calling themselves Picts. The word is an exonym like Gael or Scot.
When the Romans got there they had their own Celtic tribe names for themselves.

dublinviking

Ipso

What round towers? The Brochs

Yes the Brochs

What is pre pictish? People didn't arrive in what is now Scotland calling themselves Picts. The word is an exonym like Gael or Scot.
When the Romans got there they had their own Celtic tribe names for themselves.

Of course. This is why i never call them Picts in my texts. But cfuserkildare asked me using that name and i just had to use the same name he used so we know what we are talking about.

The naming is one of the biggest problem when you try to find your way through historical documents.

Look at this:

English call Germans Germans. Serbs call Germans Nemci. Germans call themselves Deutch. But then some traveler who traveled from Belgrade to Munich asked people what they call their country and they told him Bavaria. So he wrote in his travelogue: The Bavarian people....Then someone from the east went to Saxony and later wrote "The Saxons..." and so on. And to top it all, someone somewhere wrote: "we went to Berlin and we beat the Krauts... "

1000 years later we have Germans, Nemci, Deutch, Bavarians, Saxons and Krauts all crowding up in in central Europe...

cfuserkildare

Right,

Has the theory that people came from somewhere up in the Nordic region the down to Scotland then finally to Ireland been debunked then?

Scotland was populated long before the Scythians arrived, possibly as far back as 16000 BC, but more likely 10000bc as regular occupation.

Again this is all related to sea levels being lower, allowing foot travel from most of Northern Europe to Scotland and Ireland.

The term Picts does confuse things a lot as it was a description instead of an actual racially based name. But the evidence shows that Scotland was populated long before most people think.

Ipso

Like Ireland, Scotland probably wasn't repopulated until after the ice age and most likely had a lot of input from across Doggerland which was where the North Sea now is.
The peopling of Scotland would mirror the peopling of England although
England would have more interaction from directly across the North Sea in later years. I also think the border area if Scotland had an Angle settlement in historical times.
Western Scotland and the Isles had a lot of Viking interaction, these people gave rise to the Gallowglass mercenaries who made it to Ireland in the post Norman period.
The place name Galloway means land of the foreign gael which is a reference to the vikings. The Scottish surname Lochlann means land of the lakes, referring to the vikings homelands.
Regarding Scythia, the name isn't mentioned until 700 bc and apart from the religious connections I'd say identity politics has a lot to do with it from the point of view of a land seeking independence trying to differentiate themselves from the over lords.
How do we know these Scythians of 700bc were the same people who populated the area in the more distant past (which is what this thread is about)?
They also spoke an Iranic language (regular indo european similarities to others expected) which is different to celtic.
There's a recent book by Barry Cunliffe called Britain Begins which looks at post ice age British archaeology.

dublinviking

kildare boy

Has the theory that people came from somewhere up in the Nordic region the down to Scotland then finally to Ireland been debunked then?

There were many comings and goings between south Baltic and Ireland and Scotland. From Henges to wooden track ways (tochars) to cranogs and ringforts everything appeared first in Central Europe, then followed the same route via south Baltic to Ireland and England and Scotland. Cultural similarities are striking, including for instance the custom of human sacrifice to the goddess of death, cold and water Mora, Morana, Morigan, Morgana during the period of the catastrophic climate changes around 800 BC which gave us all the Irish and Baltic bog bodies. The thing is no one really looked at it seriously through long period of time, until now. I hope people will from now on.

Have a look at this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17


Ipso

Regarding Scythia, the name isn't mentioned until 700 bc and apart from the religious connections I'd say identity politics has a lot to do with it from the point of view of a land seeking independence trying to differentiate themselves from the over lords.
How do we know these Scythians of 700bc were the same people who populated the area in the more distant past (which is what this thread is about)?

Because you have a continuation of R1a cultures in Eurasia from at least 10,000 bc to today. The names and cultures changed, people and language survived. In Serbian "skitati" means to wander, to move from place to place, to live nomadic life stile. Skit is a nomad. This is perfect description of the Scythians who ruled the Eurasian steppe from India to South Baltic. There is also association with "sk, sek" meaning to cut. Scythians were obsessed with swords. They were their sacred objects. Sword in stone is a description of a Scythian sacred altar, except it was not stone but a wooden pyramid with sword or cross at the top. We have these kind of "crosses" in Ireland as well. Some people connect Scythians with Saxons through old Persian name for Scythians Saka. People of the sword. Tumuluses, torques, animal decorative images, anthropomorphic crosses, baba ancestor statues, horse worship, sun worship...All found in Scythian archaeological sites and in Ireland in both archaeological sites and oral tradition.

It is completely possible, and even probable that agricultural sun worshiping people from Ireland moved to central Europe during the mid 3rd millennium great deluge. I believe that this is one of the proofs for it happening:

It appears from the preceding accounts that, both by Celts and Germans, a wheel was often used for kindling the needfire. Jacob Grimm was the first to make it evident that, for the Germans at least the wheel was an emblem of the sun, and numerous facts which have come to light since he wrote, abundantly verify his conclusion. He mentions, among other evidence, that in the Edda the sun is called fagrahvel " fair or bright wheel," and that the same sign ☉ which in the calendar represents the sun stands also for the Gothic double consonant 'hw,' the initial of the Gothic word 'hvil,' Anglo-Saxon 'hveol,' English 'wheel.'In the needfire on the island of Mull the wheel was turned, according to Celtic usage, from east to west, like the sun.

There was a twofold reason for this use of the emblem of the sun, for that body was regarded not only as a mass of heavenly fire, but also as the immediate source of the lightning. When black clouds concealed the sun, the early Aryans believed that its light was actually extinguished, and needed to be rekindled. Then the pramantha 1 was worked by some god in the cold wheel until it glowed again, but before this was finally accomplished the pramantha often shot out as a thunderbolt from the wheel, or was carried off by some fire robbers. The word 'thunderbolt' itself like its German equivalents expresses the cylindrical or conical form of the pramantha. When the bolts had ceased to fly from the nave, and the wheel was once more ablaze, the storm was over."

The Midsummer or St. John's-day fires, which were kindled at the season of the summer solstice, have been commonly spoken of as if they were of one kind only, whereas they were of three kinds, as specified by a medieval writer quoted by Kemble. There were, first, bonfires ; secondly, processions with burning brands round the fields ; thirdly, wheels blazing and set rolling. The bonfires, he says, were lighted for the purpose of scaring away the dragons that poisoned the waters with the slime that fell from them at that hot season, and there-
fore bones and all sorts of filth were thrown into the fire, that the smoke might be the fouler and more offensive to the dragons. (Here we have again the primitive Aryan dragon Ahi, at his old work in the sultry midsummer weather.) As for the wheel, the same writer says, "it is rolled to signify that the sun ascends at that time to the summit of his circle, and immediately begins to descend again."

http://archive.org/details/curiositiesindo00kellgoog

There is a pilgrimage route running from Ballintober Abbey to the summit of Croagh Patrick. It probably extends back east to Rathcroghan, the palace of Queen Maeve, the Iron Age ruler of Connaught. Westport researcher Gerry Bracken was cataloging monuments in the Westport area when he came across an unusual site, known as St Patrick's Chair, or the Boheh Stone which is located on the pilgrimage trail south east of Croagh Patrick. The sequence of photos below was taken in 2000. At the bottom of the page is a more up to date image by Ken Williams.

This monument is covered in cup and ring marks, and turns out to be the only known example in Connaught, as well as one of the finest examples in Ireland. Gerry discovered that on two days in the year, the setting sun, when viewed from this spot, touches the summit of the Mountain, then proceeds to 'roll' down the northern slope. The angle of the Mountain's side matches the declination (setting angle) of the sun at this time and place.

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/gifs/RollingSun.gif

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/reek2.html


At how many more mountains in Europe or World can you observe the actual sun wheel rolling down the side of the hill, mountain? Is it possible that this is what is celebrated by rolling the burning sun wheel down the hill? Are people in Central Europe reenacting what they observed happening on their holy sun mountain which they had to leave when heaven opened? Of course by the time these "Germanic" customs were observed, the source of it was long forgotten. Is the big flood of mid 3rd millennium bc the reason why Celts were afraid of "heavens falling on their head"? Or the one from 800bc? Both devastated the north European agricultural population.

People move. The R1a or I2 agricultural people probably came to Ireland in the 4th millennium bc from central Europe via south Baltic. The continued with their sun worship culture, but also developed their own local strand of it. Then they (some of them at least) went back to central Europe in the middle of 3rd millennium. This coming and going of people between central Europe and Ireland probably happened many times before and since.

Ipso

At the 3 minute mark in this video you can see similarities between old Irish and another far flung language.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI

dublinviking

ancient stone circles and observatories from Bulgaria



https://www.facebook.com/VMBulgaria/photos/a.181655808654490.1073741846.179249492228455/292656254221111/?type=1&theater

Ancient map of solar system with sun clock from Bulgaria



https://www.facebook.com/VMBulgaria/photos/a.191159274370810.1073741877.179249492228455/191159384370799/?type=1&theater

markesmith

Wouldn't most of these similarities be based on the fact that Ireland and Serbia were influenced by the Indo-European 'package' of ideas and beliefs that spread through most of Europe in the Neolithic era?

Or do you think that there's some kind of direct link between Serbs/Illyrians/pre-Dacians and the Irish, that isn't reflected in the cultures that geographically separate them?

Sorry, your posts are often fascinating, but you should look at reducing them down to more digestible formats, and putting more of a slant on them, i.e. giving your opinion on each of these posts.

Thanks though, some good stuff in here!

dublinviking

Hi Mark

Thanks for reading.

Wouldn't most of these similarities be based on the fact that Ireland and Serbia were influenced by the Indo-European 'package' of ideas and beliefs that spread through most of Europe in the Neolithic era

I don't know if you have looked at this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056938477&page=14

The whole Indoeuropean thingy I believe will need to be redefined. How is it possible that we have roots of Vedic and Avestan deities in Serbian and Irish but not in Sanskrit and Avestan (Persian)? Who created these gods and brought them to India?

Lots of questions.

do you think that there's some kind of direct link between Serbs/Illyrians/pre-Dacians and the Irish, that isn't reflected in the cultures that geographically separate them?

I do. I believe that we have to consider Bregians, Phrygians as one source of common characteristics. Celts as the other. Scythians and Sarmatians as the third. Slavic Vikings as the fourth...

It is a mes. But lots of goodies to be found in it. See the thing is that because of such a mix of cultures, people adopted each other's beliefs, customs, and translated them into each other's languages. These translations are the important bit, which allows us to understand the original belief systems better. We might not have the meaning of Mithra, but we have Mitarisvan, the giver of light...We might not have the meaning of Crom Dubh, but we have Hromi Daba and we have Grom Div, the thunder giant, Perun, who is celebrated on Crom Dubh day and to whom a bull is sacrificed....See what I mean?

There are also much older links which predate mid 3rd millennium bc, which date to Vinca time, and even older links which go so far back that I really don't know how old they are. Some of the linguistic characteristics are truly ancient.

I said this is work in progress. I welcome any help, any question any suggestion. Even attempts to prove that I am wrong will help all of us learn more about this subject.

But the most important thing is to have fun. So enjoy.

dublinviking

interesting publication.

http://gendocs.ru/docs/25/24947/conv_1/file1.pdf

And very interesting map indeed. Celtic languages. Look how it follows the Carpathian mountains down south into south eastern Serbia and south western Bulgaria. The old Serbia. And how it follows the distribution of R1b haplogroup. I think people are beginning to see the light.

cfuserkildare

dublinviking wrote: »

Hi Mark

Thanks for reading.



I don't know if you have looked at this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056938477&page=14

The whole Indoeuropean thingy I believe will need to be redefined. How is it possible that we have roots of Vedic and Avestan deities in Serbian and Irish but not in Sanskrit and Avestan (Persian)? Who created these gods and brought them to India?

Lots of questions.



I do. I believe that we have to consider Bregians, Phrygians as one source of common characteristics. Celts as the other. Scythians and Sarmatians as the third. Slavic Vikings as the fourth...

It is a mes. But lots of goodies to be found in it. See the thing is that because of such a mix of cultures, people adopted each other's beliefs, customs, and translated them into each other's languages. These translations are the important bit, which allows us to understand the original belief systems better. We might not have the meaning of Mithra, but we have Mitarisvan, the giver of light...We might not have the meaning of Crom Dubh, but we have Hromi Daba and we have Grom Div, the thunder giant, Perun, who is celebrated on Crom Dubh day and to whom a bull is sacrificed....See what I mean?

There are also much older links which predate mid 3rd millennium bc, which date to Vinca time, and even older links which go so far back that I really don't know how old they are. Some of the linguistic characteristics are truly ancient.

I said this is work in progress. I welcome any help, any question any suggestion. Even attempts to prove that I am wrong will help all of us learn more about this subject.

But the most important thing is to have fun. So enjoy.

Hey mate,

Is it possible that the whole thing started from this end and went South East?
Instead of working its way north West to us here?

dublinviking

Is it possible that the whole thing started from this end and went South East? Instead of working its way north West to us here?

Difficult considering that 10,000 years ago Ireland was under ice. So originally the movement was from Spain and the Balkans to Ireland. If you have actually read what i write, you will see that I believe that from then on there were many comings and goings between Ireland and the rest of Europe including the Balkans.

To bring it closer to home, to us (as I am one of you guys now like it or not), look at the Irish who invade Wales and Scotland only to be invaded back by the descendants of the same Irish who became Scottish and Welsh, while Ireland was defended by the descendants of Normans and Vikings who became Irish. Mess. But interesting.

dublinviking

Some interesting words:

Irish

Mol, Molaim, Moladh - commend,commend,nominate,propose, praise,recommend, suggest

Slavic

Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
Mol-ba - Pleading
Molad je (e) - c - recommended is - a commendation given to someone
Mol-io bih - If i could suggest

Lithuanian

maldà 'plea', maldýti, maldaũ - to plead, to beg,
mel̃sti, meldžiù - to request, to pray,

Hittite

mald, maltāi - request; speak,

Armenian

mаɫtΏеm - I beg,

Old High German meldôn - to announce.

What could be the root of these words?

I would suggest root "mol" meaning to beg, ask. What do we get when we apply this root to the above words:


Irish

Mol - plea (what we ask for)

Moladh - mol + je + da = plea (what we ask for) + is, approve + give

Slavic

Molim = mol + je + m = plea (what we ask for) + is + mine

Molba = molva, molve = mol + va, ve = plea (what we ask for) + said

Moladjec = mol + je + da + je + s = plea (what we ask for) + is + give + is + with

Lithuanian:

malda = mol + da = plea (what we ask for) + give
malditi = mol + da + ti = plea (what we ask for) + give + you
melsti = mol + es + ti = plea (what we ask for) + is, approve, give + you

Hittite

mald, maltai = mol + da, daj = plea (what we ask for) + give

Armenian

mаɫtΏеm = mol + to + e + m = plea (what we ask for) + that + is + mine

Old High German meldôn (> High German melden)

meldon, melden = mol + dan, den = plea (what we ask for) + is given

Do you see how all the words have roots in Slavic? Meaning all the words can be assembled from Slavic base blocks. Is it possible that these are old R1a, or I2a language roots, older than 3000 bc, older than Hittite empire, which are still preserved in Slavic languages, but lost in other languages which only preserved the compound words based on root "mol" (to ask, to beg)?

The only other non Slavic language which seems to have preserved the root is Irish...

dublinviking

I did some more digging and I believe that the above words come from I2a language, not R1a language. I2a languages are preserved the best in South Slavic (Serbo Croatian) languages.

Old Church Slavonic, also known as Old Church Slavic (often abbreviated to OCS; slověnĭskŭ językŭ) was the first Slavic literary language. The 9th century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianisation of the Slavic peoples.[1] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greek Macedonia). It played an important role in the history of the Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, and some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches use this later Church Slavonic as a liturgical language to this day. As the oldest attested Slavic language, OCS provides important evidence for the features of Proto-Slavic, the unattested common ancestor of all Slavic languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic

Have a look at these words in Slavic languages:

English: pray, beg, plead,praise, will

Bosnian: moliti, moliti, moliti, (po)hvala, volja
Croatian: moliti, moliti, moliti, (po)hvala, volja
Serbian: moliti, moliti, moliti, (po)hvala, volja
Macedonian: moletese, moli, moli, (po)falbi, volja

Belorussian: malica, prasic, malic, hvala, volja
Bulgarian: molete se, prosjat, prosjat, hvala, volja
Czech: modlit, prosit, prosit, (po)chvala, vule
Polish: modlić się, prosić, prosić (błagać), (po)chwała, wola
Russian: molitsa, prosit, prosit (umoljat), hvala, volja
Slovak: modliť, prosiť, prosiť, (po)chvala, vola, volja
Slovenian: molite, prosim, prosim, (po)hvala, volja
Ukrainian: molitsa, prositi, prositi (blagati), hvala, volja

We see that Old Church Slavonic language was made based on the Slavic dialects spoken by Balkan Slavs. This language was used to translate the Bible and to conduct religious ceremonies. Because of this a lot of Balkan South Slavic words entered West and East Slavic languages, particularly the ones related to religion. So word for pray "moliti" came from Old Church Slavonic as we can see from the above table. The other two words "beg" and "plead" are expressed using Slavic wide word "prositi".

Only in South Slavic languages, word "moliti" means pray, beg and plead.

This leads me to believe that the root "mol" does not come from R1a language, but from I2a language. The genetic map of Eurasia shows us that the distribution of "mol" words follows distribution of I2a Y haplogroup. Including old Hittite lands and Ireland.

What is also interesting is that related words for praise, will, like (desire) all have the same root: "mol".

I first have to explain something about the sound group m,p,b,v,f. These sounds are all produced by the same position of the mouth, with tiny variation of the lip pressure and movement. This makes these sounds interchangeable. Which sound is used, depends on someone's ability to hear the difference between the above sounds and to articulate them. What does this mean in practice?

pan (Polish) = ban (Serbian) = Slavic noble title
ban (Irish) = van (Serbian) = white, shiny
vino = fino - vine
bo (Irish) - vo (Serbian) = male cow
bleagh (Irish) - mleko (Serbian) = milk
bleachdair (Irish) - mlekar (Serbian) = milk man

Now that we know this, have a look at the words for praise, will, like (desire) in South Slavic languages:

Like = voleti. Apparently etymology is from word "volja" meaning will
Will = volja. From Proto-Slavic *volja, from Proto-Indo-European *wel- (“to want”).
Praise = Hvala. From Proto-Slavic *xvala

will (v.) Look up will at Dictionary.com

Old English *willan, wyllan "to wish, desire, want" (past tense wolde), from Proto-Germanic *welljan (cf. Old Saxon willian, Old Norse vilja, Old Frisian willa, Dutch willen, Old High German wellan, German wollen, Gothic wiljan "to will, wish, desire," Gothic waljan "to choose"). The Germanic words are from PIE root *wel- (2) "to wish, will" (cf. Sanskrit vrnoti "chooses, prefers," varyah "to be chosen, eligible, excellent," varanam "choosing;" Avestan verenav- "to wish, will, choose;" Greek elpis "hope;" Latin volo, velle "to wish, will, desire;" Old Church Slavonic voljo, voliti "to will," veljo, veleti "to command;" Lithuanian velyti "to wish, favor," pa-vel-mi "I will," viliuos "I hope;" Welsh gwell "better").

Cf. also Old English wel "well," literally "according to one's wish;" wela "well-being, riches." The use as a future auxiliary was already developing in Old English. The implication of intention or volition distinguishes it from shall, which expresses or implies obligation or necessity. Contracted forms, especially after pronouns, began to appear 16c., as in sheele for "she will." The form with an apostrophe is from 17c.

will (n.) Look up will at Dictionary.com

Old English will, willa, from Proto-Germanic *weljon (cf. Old Saxon willio, Old Norse vili, Old Frisian willa, Dutch wil, Old High German willio, German wille, Gothic wilja "will"), related to *willan "to wish" (see will (v.)). The meaning "written document expressing a person's wishes about disposition of property after death" is first recorded late 14c.

We see that the above etymologies, include words from Sanskrit, Avestan, Greek and Welsh. These words have nothing to do with root will, vilj, vol, volj.


Sanskrit vrnoti "chooses, prefers," varyah "to be chosen, eligible, excellent," varanam "choosing;"

vrnoti - consume, eat, hide, prevent, like, restrain, hide, veil, surround

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=vRNoti&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0


varya - eligible, chief, best of, principal, excelent

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=varya&script=&direction=SE&link=yes

varana - choosing, invicible, armor, rampart, resisting, forbiden

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=varanam&trans=Translate&direction=AU

vara - best, royal, choosing, choice

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=vara&trans=Translate&direction=AU

All the above word are linked with choosing the best and protecting it, not with will, liking, desiring.

Avestan verenav- "to wish, will, choose;" - the same root and meaning as Sanskrit varana

Greek elpis "hope;" This has nothing to do with root will, vil, vol, volj.

Welsh gwell "better". This word is cognate with Serbian word "bolji, bolje", meanaing better.

The root "bolj" is another South Slavic root, which does not exist in other Slavic languages:

English: better

Bosnian: bolje
Croatian: bolje
Serbian: bolje
Slovenian: bolje

Macedonian: podobro
Bulgarian: podobre

Belorussian: lepš
Czech: lepše
Polish: lepsze
Russian: lučše
Slovak: lepš
Ukrainian: krashche

From the original word table,we see that in all Slavic languages, word for Will is "Volja". Where did that word come from?

In south Slavic languages, "volja" is also word for desire, wish.

"Volja mi je" = It is my wish, desire

voljeti, voleti, voliti - to like, to love
volja - desire, wish, will
voljan - willing
nevolja - trouble
povoljan - favorable, free, eager
povoljica - happiness
dovoljan - enough
udovoljiti, dovoliti - satisfy
izvoljeti, izvoliti, izvoleti - want, desire
dovolje - enough, good
privoljeti, privoliti, privoleti - coax, make someone agree with you
mrzovoljan - cranky
zlovoljan, hudovoljan - bad temper
zadovoljan - satisfied
svojevoljan - free, voluntary, free willed
samovoljan, svevoljan - willful
dragovoljan - voluntary
izvoli - go ahead, do what you want

valja - good, worth
valjan - is good, trustworthy, hardworking

We can see that in South Slavic languages, root "vol" is the root for all these words related to wont, will, desire, satisfaction, happiness, freedom. This is not the case in other Slavic languages:

Serbian: voljeti, voljan, nevolja, povoljan, dovoljan, udovoljiti, izvoljeti, dovolje, privoljeti, mrzovoljan, zlovoljan, zadovoljan, svojevoljan, samovoljan, dragovoljan, izvoli
Croatian: voljeti, voljan, nevolja, povoljan, dovoljan, udovoljiti, izvoljeti, dovolje, privoljeti, mrzovoljan, zlovoljan, zadovoljan, svojevoljan, samovoljan, dragovoljan, izvoli
Bosnian: voljeti, voljan, nevolja, povoljan, dovoljan, udovoljiti, izvoljeti, dovolje, privoljeti, mrzovoljan, zlovoljan, zadovoljan, svojevoljan, samovoljan, dragovoljan, izvoli

Bulgarian: любов, желание, страдание, достъпна, достатъчна, отговарят, унижавам, достатъчно, коаксиален, мрачен, намусен, щастлив, упорит, своенравен, доброволно, давай напред
Belarussian: каханне, гатовыя, смутак, даступным, досыць выконваць, робяць ласку, дастаткова, кааксіяльны, пануры, пануры, шчаслівыя, ўпарты, наравісты, добраахвотнае, тут
Czech: láska, ochotný, trápení, cenově dostupné, stačí splňovat, snížit se, stačí, koaxiální, mrzutý, nevrlý, šťastný, tvrdohlavá, svéhlavá, dobrovolné, zde
Macedonian: љубов, подготвени, болка, прифатлива, доволни се усогласат, унижавам, доволни се убедувам, мрзлив, намуртен, среќни, тврдоглави, намерни, на доброволна основа, тука
Polish: miłość, gotowi, utrapienie, niedrogie, wystarczające, zgodne, zniżać, wystarczy, namówić, smutny, ponury, szczęśliwa, uparta, świadoma, dobrowolna, tutaj
Russian: любовь, готовы, скорбь, доступным, достаточно соблюдать, снисходила, достаточно, коаксиальный, угрюм, угрюмый, счастливые, упрямый, своенравный, добровольное, здесь
Slovak: láska, ochotný, trápenie, cenovo dostupné, stačí spĺňať, znížiť sa, stačí, koaxiálny, mrzutý, nevrlý, šťastný, tvrdohlavá, svojhlavá, dobrovoľné, tu
Slovenian: ljubezen, pripravljeni, stiska, cenovno ugodno in zadostna, ustrezna, Blagoizvoljeti, zadostuje, coax, čemeren, mrko, vesel, trmast, svojeglav, prostovoljno, tu
Ukrainian: любов, готові, скорбота, доступним, досить дотримуватися, терплячи, достатньо, коаксіальний, похмурий, похмурий, щасливі, впертий, норовливий, добровільне, тут

It seems that word "volja", will, is another word which came from South Slavic I2a language.

So it seems that only South Slavic and Germanic languages share word will, volja meaning desire, want.

Here is etymology of Proto-Germanic root word wiljaną meaning to want.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/wiljan%C4%85#Proto-Germanic

Serbian word volja, voljeti meaning to will, to want, to desire.


Here is etymology of Proto-Germanic root word waljaną meaning to choose.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/waljan%C4%85#Proto-Germanic

Serbian word valja, valjan, valjati meanining to be worth, to be chosen.


The problem is that when we try to find all the other will words from Serbian in Germanic languages, we see that none of them has root will.

Serbian: voljeti, voljan, nevolja, povoljan, dovoljan, udovoljiti, izvoljeti, dovolje, privoljeti, mrzovoljan, zlovoljan, zadovoljan, svojevoljan, samovoljan, dragovoljan, izvoli
Afrikaans: liefhet, bereid, ellende, bekostigbare, voldoende, voldoen nie, verwerdig, voldoende, coax, somber, nors, gelukkig, hardnekkige, moedswillige, vrywillige, hier
Danish: kærlighed, villig, lidelse, økonomisk overkommelig, tilstrækkelig opfylde, nedlade tilstrækkelig, coax, gnaven, tvær, glad, stædig, forsætlig, frivillig, her
Dutch: liefde, gewillig, kwelling, betaalbaar, voldoende, voldoen, verwaardigen, voldoende, coax, somber, somber, gelukkig, koppig, eigenzinnig, op vrijwillige basis, hier
English: love, willing, affliction, affordable, sufficient, comply, condescend, sufficient, coax, morose, sullen, happy, stubborn, willful, voluntary, here
German: Liebe, die bereit sind, Kummer, günstig, ausreichend zu erfüllen, herablassen, ausreichend, Koax, verdrießlich, mürrisch, glücklich, stur, eigensinnig, freiwillig, hier
Icelandic: elska, tilbúin, eymd, affordable, fullnægjandi, fara, beygja, fullnægjandi, coax morose, styggur, hamingjusöm, þrjóskur, ákveðni, sjálfboðavinnu, hér
Norwegian: kjærlighet, villig, lidelse, rimelig, tilstrekkelig, overholde, nedlate, tilstrekkelig, coax, gretten, mutt, glad, sta, egenrådig, frivillig, her
Swedish: kärlek, villig, lidande, prisvärd, räcker, iaktta, nedlåta sig, räcker, lirka, vresig, tystlåten, glad, envis, egensinnig, frivillig, här

It seems that the word will is a borrowing in Germanic languages. This borrowing could only have come from South Slavic languages, the I2a languages which are the only ones which have full list of "volja" based words. How did this borrowing end up in Germanic languages? Through West Slavic languages like Polabian. Word for will in Polabian is "Willia".

So we have Volja (Serbian), wilja (Polabian, Pomorian), will (Germanic).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_language

A lot of "Germanic" words could be most western version of words of this ancient central European I2a language, and a lot of east Slavic words are most eastern versions of this central European I2a language.


Now if we look at Serbian words for will, like, beg and pray we see that they are "voljiti", "voliti", "moliti", "moliti". The key for understanding the relationship between these words is the word "privoliti", meaning to coax, to persuade, to make someone go along with your will, desire, want. Isn't this what begging, praying (moliti) is for?

Moli = me + voli = me + wont = I want.
Moliti = me + voli + ti = me + wont + you = I want this from you.

So to get something that you want, you need to have desire, will (volja = voli + ja = like + I = I like), you pray (me voli = I want). Then you say hvala = go + valja = that + is good.

These words are at least as old as Hittite empire and possibly even older. This is very very interesting indeed.

cfuserkildare

Hi Dublin Viking,

I still see a small problem, and that is mainly that the Gaelic language was brought here with the Gaels, ie somewhere between 800 and 500 bc.
So what language were the natives speaking before 1000 bc?

dublinviking

Ireland is big enough to support multiple cultural groups living side by side. I would say more than one language was spoken in Ireland for a very long time. I would say that it is only with the late Christianity, that we see cultural and linguistic homogenization. So who ever lived in Ireland before Gaels arrived did not just vanish. They continued living there. And eventually mixed with the Gaels. This is how things usually work everywhere else in the world. Why would Ireland be any different?

dubhthach

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi Dublin Viking,

I still see a small problem, and that is mainly that the Gaelic language was brought here with the Gaels, ie somewhere between 800 and 500 bc.
So what language were the natives speaking before 1000 bc?

Irish developed out of Proto-Celtic. The question of course is when was any form of "Proto-Celtic" spoken in Ireland. some have argued that Proto-Celtic is a language of the Bronze age.

dublinviking

The question actually is what is Proto-Celtic and is Gaelic Celtic language at all. But I already talked about it on Vinca thread so don't want to bore you with it again...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056938477

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

The question actually is what is Proto-Celtic and is Gaelic Celtic language at all. But I already talked about it on Vinca thread so don't want to bore you with it again...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056938477

Simples "Proto-Celtic" is the common ancestor of Goidelic, Brythonic, Gaulish and Celtiberian. They all descend from it. Just how Serbian and Russian both descend from Proto-Slavic.

dublinviking

I agree with you that Goidelic, Brythonic, Gaulish and Celtiberian come from the same old language group, but I don't agree that that is Celtic. I would call it Atlantic. Celtic is Central European language group, and is much more likely to have been mixture of R1a, R1b, I2 languages formed in the 3rd millennium bc in Central Europe, probably at the time of Vucedol culture. Who was the main carrier of this Celtic language group? Probably R1a and I2, because what we find in Central Europe at the moment are majority R1a and I2 languages with small percentage of R1b (Atlantic) languages mixed in. We already spoke about this at the beginning of this thread.

cfuserkildare

Hey DublinViking,

I mean no offence here, but you keep stating that you agree or don't agree, and you call a group this or that, but surely you are not the 1 and only authority on the origins of the Irish.

How much of your opinion can you back up?

I only bring this up on the basis that you seem happy to shoot down any conflicting theory or opinion.

Again I do not mean to offend or insult with this post, and Apologise if that is how it is perceived.

Ipso

Aren't celtic languages and slavic languages on different sides if the centum/satem divide? I thought this was a pretty big distinction in Indo European languages?

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

because what we find in Central Europe at the moment are majority R1a and I2 languages with small percentage of R1b

Current distribution levels aren't a good proxy for past levels.
One "lively" male can have a massive impact.
All the R1b-m269 carrying males in Europe descend from one male who lived 8,000 to 10,000 years ago.

AngryHippie

Ipso wrote: »

Current distribution levels aren't a good proxy for past levels.
One "lively" male can have a massive impact.
All the R1b-m269 carrying males in Europe descend from one male who lived 8,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Giggity

dublinviking

cfuserkildare. No offence taken at all. This is all of course my opinion. And as for backing it up, I believe that at least some things I wrote in Vinca and other threads could be said to back my opinion. I know that this goes against the main Indoeuropean theory, but here is why I think this theory needs revisiting:

Aren't celtic languages and slavic languages on different sides if the centum/satem divide? I thought this was a pretty big distinction in Indo European languages?

Thanks Ipso.

And this is it. How the hell do we have all these Slavic roots in Irish? How is this possible. And the other way round. Not one not two, thousands, in contexts still preserved in both languages. Something was missed here, and it is pretty important...

Ipso

Current distribution levels aren't a good proxy for past levels.

I agree 100%. This is a huge problem. You can't use only today's genetics. But use ancient genetics, use history, archaeology, ethnography, linguistics, cross reference it and bingo....

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

I agree with you that Goidelic, Brythonic, Gaulish and Celtiberian come from the same old language group, but I don't agree that that is Celtic. I would call it Atlantic. Celtic is Central European language group, and is much more likely to have been mixture of R1a, R1b, I2 languages formed in the 3rd millennium bc in Central Europe, probably at the time of Vucedol culture. Who was the main carrier of this Celtic language group? Probably R1a and I2, because what we find in Central Europe at the moment are majority R1a and I2 languages with small percentage of R1b (Atlantic) languages mixed in. We already spoke about this at the beginning of this thread.

This makes no sense, the language family containing Goidelic, Brythonic, Lepontic, Gaulish and Celtiberian is called Celtic. There is no other name for this. We know specifically that Gaulish is the language used by La Tene Celts as encountered by the Roman's and Greeks. The defining feature of any Celtic language is the deletion of Indo-European *p. This is what spilts Proto-Celtic from it's close relative Proto-Italic.

R1a current distribution in Central Europe is probably due to expansion of Slavic languages after the collapse of the Roman Empire. It can't be used as a good proxy for the situation 3,000+ years ago. Leaving that aside the R1b still outnumbers R1a in Austria and Switzerland which is the heart of area that gave rise to Urnfield, Hallstat and La Tene material cultures.

Gaulish is the language spoken by what Caesar and the Roman's consider Celts. The closest Indo-European branches to Celtic branch are Italic and Germanic. Interesting enough the distrubition of subclades under R1b-M269 somewhat backs this up, with areas associated with Italic and Celtic groups dominated by R1b-P312 and Germanic speaking areas dominated by R1b-U106. Both of these share a common root in R1b-L11.

R1b expansion in Europe shows a distinct East to West movement based on distrubition of upstream SNP's under R1b.



If we look at ancient-DNA we know that Bell Beakers remains from Germany showd up as R1b -- negative for U106 but untested on P312.

On a simplistic level R1b exceeds R1a in populations which speak or historically speak the following Indo-European branches:
Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Albanian, Armenian, Greek, Anatolian.

cfuserkildare

"This makes no sense, the language family containing Goidelic, Brythonic, Lepontic, Gaulish and Celtiberian is called Celtic. There is no other name for this. We know specifically that Gaulish is the language used by La Tene Celts as encountered by the Roman's and Greeks. The defining feature of any Celtic language is the deletion of Indo-European *p. This is what spilts Proto-Celtic from it's close relative Proto-Italic.

R1a current distribution in Central Europe is probably due to expansion of Slavic languages after the collapse of the Roman Empire. It can't be used as a good proxy for the situation 3,000+ years ago."

This is pretty much what I was trying to say, but in a simpler form as I wouldn't be up on the grouping types.

dublinviking

dubtach

Did you forget that you have already posted the same picture in this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88639937&postcount=41

And that I already said what I think about it in next couple of posts. What is the point of repeating the same things over and over again. I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with you. I explained why in detail. I dedicated the whole Vinca thread to explain why i think that there is something wrong with what you believe is true. I don't understand if you guys don't read my posts or don't understand them.

Please explain how is it possible that old Irish gods have names which have Serbian roots. And at the same time how is it possible to have Vedic gods whose names have Serbian roots. What connects Vedic culture and Irish culture is R1a genes and Serbian language. If you can explain this using your R1b diagram, fair enough, I will agree with you. I am not religiously attached to my theory. If it is proven wrong I will dump it. I am a scientist, not a priest. But you need arguments, to persuade me that I am wrong, and so far you are failing.

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

dubtach

Did you forget that you have already posted the same picture in this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88639937&postcount=41

And that I already said what I think about it in next couple of posts. What is the point of repeating the same things over and over again. I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with you. I explained why in detail. I dedicated the whole Vinca thread to explain why i think that there is something wrong with what you believe is true. I don't understand if you guys don't read my posts or don't understand them.

Please explain how is it possible that old Irish gods have names which have Serbian roots. And at the same time how is it possible to have Vedic gods whose names have Serbian roots. What connects Vedic culture and Irish culture is R1a genes and Serbian language. If you can explain this using your R1b diagram, fair enough, I will agree with you. I am not religiously attached to my theory. If it is proven wrong I will dump it. I am a scientist, not a priest. But you need arguments, to persuade me that I am wrong, and so far you are failing.

What that you went on a tangent using some made up word (Arbin) that sprung from the mind of Klyosov.

I fail to see any root words in Irish that are of Serbian origin. Serbian specifically as a language is only attested to early medieval period. Irish probably differentiated from it's near relatives on the order of 3,000 years ago. Instead I see that Irish, Serbian (Slavic) and Indic languages all share words that have roots in Proto-Indo-European.

I also fail to see how you can claim that Vedic culture is purely connected to R1a1 (and subclades), have you retrieved Ancient-DNA from vedic remains and verified that they were solely R1a?
Any scientific study in the north of the sub-continent will show intrusive nature of R1a as well as smaller amounts of R1b. R2 of course is also heavily present in the sub-continent.

R1a in a Slavic context is nearly all R1a1-M458 (subclade of R1a1-Z282). This is not found in any Indian, Pakistani or even Iranian samples. If anything the last time European R1a1 and Indian R1a1 shared a common ancestor is on the order of 5,000-6,000 years ago.
The data is unanimous regarding the progress of R1b from east to west. It also ties in with the fact that not a single sample of R1b has been retrieved from Neolithic ancient-DNA so far sequenced. Instead we see a dominance of Haplogroup G, with some minor amounts of Haplogroup I. No doubt due to the fact that Haplogroup I represents the mesolithic hunter-gatherer population whereas G is representative of Neolithic transition.

If we go on the Haplogroup distribution figures for Serbians we see that by and large they are only 16% belonging to Haplogroup R1a, 8% belong to Haplogroup R1b. In comparison close on 33% belong to subclades of I2, which by the way is basically completely absent outside of Europe. The high levels of I in Serb, Bosnian and Croat populations is probably due to the Dinaric alps and the shelter/refugee value of them. A similiar situation probably also arose in Scandinavian with specific subclades of Haplogroup I1.

Have you done any testing on your own Y-Chromosome and if so what is your Haplogroup?

dublinviking

I fail to see any root words in Irish that are of Serbian origin.

The Gobán Saor was a highly-skilled smith or architect in Irish history and legend. Gobban Saer (Gobban the Builder) is a figure regarded in Irish traditional lore as an architect of the seventh century, and popularly canonized as St. Gobban. The Catholic Encyclopedia considers him historical and born at Turvey, near Malahide, about 560.
In literary references, he was employed by many Irish saints to build churches, oratories, and bell towers, and he is alluded to in an eighth-century Irish poem, preserved in a monastery in Carinthia. In the "Life of St. Abban" it is said that "the fame of Gobban as a builder in wood as well as stone would exist in Ireland to the end of time."
In Gobán Saor can be seen elements of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft.[1] His name can be compared with the Old Irish gobae ~ gobann ‘smith,’ Middle Welsh gof ~ gofein ‘smith,’ Gallic gobedbi ‘with the smiths,’ Latin faber ‘smith’ and with the Lithuanian gabija ‘sacred home fire’ and Lithuanian gabus ‘gifted, clever’.[2]
The Wonder Smith and His Son is a retelling of fourteen tales about the Gobán Saor, by Ella Young; illustrated by Boris Artzybasheff (1927). It was a 1928 Newbery Honor Book. Two of Ella Young's retellings were reprinted by Collier in "The Young Folks Shelf of Books."

Goban Saor = Smith Best
Goibniu = Smith god

Irish mythological characters related to metalwork, whose names have root in Serbian, because Serbian is the only language where kov means metal.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85059096&postcount=72

Words exist only in Serbian and Irish, root is in Serbian. I did not say Slavic. I said Serbian. Metal was invented in the territory of Serbia by Vincans, so they probably gave it the name. This name for metal survived completely in Serbian and as a name of Smith related figures in Irish. I believe that Vinca people were I2.

What does this have to do with Proto Indo Europeans?

And no I did not do my genetic test. You see, unlike you I don't do this to make my nation look better. I do it because I want to know the truth. As I said before, but you failed to notice, I actually believe that modern Serbs were created by R1b people from the Balkans. I am married to and Irish girl. So I really have no racist motives for saying that R1a people are what you call Proto Indo Europeans, and that I2 people are Vincans.

Your turn.

hi wibbs how are you?

dublinviking

I also fail to see how you can claim that Vedic culture is purely connected to R1a1 (and subclades), have you retrieved Ancient-DNA from vedic remains and verified that they were solely R1a?

Because all main Vedic gods and symbols have clear etymologies in Serbian, but not in say German or French or Latin or even Persian, Avestan and Sanskrit. Vedic god Trimurti is Indian version of European Triglav, which is only preserved in Serbian tradition from Balkan to Baltic. Vedas were created in Europe, probably in the Balkans, or Central Europe, as a mix of I2a and R1a cultures. There could have been also R1b infulence there. I don't know. I believe that that is too early for R1b to be involved. This happened in 4th millennium bc, at the time when Vincans started their world expansion.

R1a in a Slavic context is nearly all R1a1-M458 (subclade of R1a1-Z282). This is not found in any Indian, Pakistani or even Iranian samples. If anything the last time European R1a1 and Indian R1a1 shared a common ancestor is on the order of 5,000-6,000 years ago.

Exactly when I would expect it to have existed. At the time Vincans started their world expansion.

Any scientific study in the north of the sub-continent will show intrusive nature of R1a as well as smaller amounts of R1b. R2 of course is also heavily present in the sub-continent.

Which is exactly what i claim. R1a in India are the invaders from Europe.

What that you went on a tangent using some made up word (Arbin) that sprung from the mind of Klyosov.

Lighten up. I like name Arbin. It is poetic and funny. As I told you already. Ria-n Rib-n. See! Funny . But you are too serious. You see this as a war not as scientific discussion. You seem to be in it to prove the greatness of R1b race because this will make you feel better about yourself. You are looking at this from a racist point of view. Is this why you asked me which haplogroup I was? So you can accuse me of being biased?
But I am not surprised by this any more. I see that all the time all over the world. People like to believe that they are descendants of mighty races. It makes them feel better about themselves and about the fact that they are themselves really insignificant, because they have nothing to show for themselves. So instead of discovering something important, building something important, doing something important, which would make them important, they spend all their energy bragging about their important ancestors....

But as much as we like doing it, we can not take credits for what our ancestors did. We are born who we are by chance.

ezra_pound

dublinviking wrote: »

Because all main Vedic gods and symbols have clear etymologies in Serbian, but not in say German or French or Latin or even Persian, Avestan and Sanskrit.

This is simply NOT TRUE.

In fact it's quite a ridiculous suggestion on many levels, actually on all levels.

ezra_pound

Give some examples of vedic gods without Sanskrit etymologies.

ezra_pound

For a start no vedic Gods have a Serbian etymology because Serbian is later than the rigvedas or Sanskrit.

ezra_pound

Secondly some of the vedic deities, for example Surya have related words in just about all IE languages. Perhaps Irish is one of the few exceptions re surya. Serbian however is not.

dublinviking

Hi Ezra, long time no hear. Go and read it on vinca thread. I could not be bothered to repeat myself just because you could not be bothered to read what I write.

I have done analysis of all main Vedic gods. I have given detailed study of Twastar, but will publish detailed studies of the other gods soon. I have done detailed study of swastika as well. It is not just etymology. It is their meaning as gods, their attributes, their relationship with each other and the natural forces that they represent. All of it points to them being foreign to India.

I just want to post this image, in order to explain why I believe that we can still find traces of old languages and cultures in modern languages and cultures. Hopefully the picture is worth thousand words, and will explain what I mean that roots are found in Serbian and why this is possible. Basically it all depends which languages were mixed to create which language. Serbian just so happened to be a mix of some really old languages. Pure luck really.

dublinviking

For example Surya have related words in just about all IE languages.

Of course it does. It is the sun god or the Arians. But sun worship is foreign to India. It was brought to India from Europe. Suria is Su Ri Ja = sun king I am. He is the equivalent of Mitra, Mitairsvan = mi +dari + svan = me + gives + light = giver of light, or Surban = Su + Ri + Ban = Sun + king + white, lord, Zaratustra = zara, zora + tvoristvar = day + creator, Oziris, Ozarisl, Osuris = o + su + ri + s = the sun king, the one who shines

He is sun, sunce, sol, ilios, vid...and later Christ. He is the holy Sun, the creator.

This is older than Vedas.

ezra_pound

ezra_pound wrote: »

Give some examples of vedic gods without Sanskrit etymologies.

Go on.

ezra_pound

dublinviking wrote: »

Hi Ezra, long time no hear. Go and read it on vinca thread. I could not be bothered to repeat myself just because you could not be bothered to read what I write.

I have done analysis of all main Vedic gods. I have given detailed study of Twastar, but will publish detailed studies of the other gods soon. I have done detailed study of swastika as well. It is not just etymology. It is their meaning as gods, their attributes, their relationship with each other and the natural forces that they represent. All of it points to them being foreign to India.

I just want to post this image, in order to explain why I believe that we can still find traces of old languages and cultures in modern languages and cultures. Hopefully the picture is worth thousand words, and will explain what I mean that roots are found in Serbian and why this is possible. Basically it all depends which languages were mixed to create which language. Serbian just so happened to be a mix of some really old languages. Pure luck really.

You have got to be joking.

ezra_pound

dublinviking wrote: »

Of course it does. It is the sun god or the Arians. But sun worship is foreign to India. It was brought to India from Europe. Suria is Su Ri Ja = sun king I am. He is the equivalent of Mitra, Mitairsvan = mi +dari + svan = me + gives + light = giver of light, or Surban = Su + Ri + Ban = Sun + king + white, lord, Zaratustra = zara, zora + tvoristvar = day + creator, Oziris, Ozarisl, Osuris = o + su + ri + s = the sun king, the one who shines

He is sun, sunce, sol, ilios, vid...and later Christ. He is the holy Sun, the creator.

This is older than Vedas.

Exactly.

dublinviking

No I am not joking.

Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

Do you have a better explanation for language development and propagation?

And exactly, all the above etymologies of the ancient gods are in Serbian. Or to be more precise in the remnant of either I2a or R1a ancient language, preserved in Serbian. Language spoken by people who created the sun god and spread it around the world...The Arians were R1a people. So Su is the root name of the sun words in R1a languages....

ezra_pound

dublinviking wrote: »

No I am not joking.

Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

Do you have a better explanation for language development and propagation?

And exactly, all the above etymologies of the ancient gods are in Serbian. Or to be more precise in the remnant of either I2a or R1a ancient language, preserved in Serbian. Language spoken by people who created the sun god and spread it around the world...The Arians were R1a people. So Su is the root name of the sun words in R1a languages....

There's just so much heavy reading in your vinca thread- lots of it very interesting of course. You must be joking that I read it all. Anyway I don't want to argue with your main theory.

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

Goban Saor = Smith Best
Goibniu = Smith god

Irish mythological characters related to metalwork, whose names have root in Serbian, because Serbian is the only language where kov means metal.

eh nope. Latin Faber is cognate with Proto-Celtic *goban likewise for Lithuanian gabus. The word has it's root in Proto-Indo-European and not in Serbian.

dubhthach

dublinviking wrote: »

Which is exactly what i claim. R1a in India are the invaders from Europe.



Lighten up. I like name Arbin. It is poetic and funny. As I told you already. Ria-n Rib-n. See! Funny . But you are too serious. You see this as a war not as scientific discussion. You seem to be in it to prove the greatness of R1b race because this will make you feel better about yourself. You are looking at this from a racist point of view. Is this why you asked me which haplogroup I was? So you can accuse me of being biased?
But I am not surprised by this any more. I see that all the time all over the world. People like to believe that they are descendants of mighty races. It makes them feel better about themselves and about the fact that they are themselves really insignificant, because they have nothing to show for themselves. So instead of discovering something important, building something important, doing something important, which would make them important, they spend all their energy bragging about their important ancestors....

But as much as we like doing it, we can not take credits for what our ancestors did. We are born who we are by chance.

European Haplogroup R1a1 belongs to a seperate subclade to South-Asian R1a1a. Specifically It either belongs to R1a1-Z283 (R1a1a1b1). In comparison this subclade isn't found in either Iran or India, where R1a1-Z93 (R1a1a1b2) dominate.

The two subclades share a common ancestor in the form of R1a1-Z647 (R1a1a1b). The bifurcation of this clade in two probably occurred in either central-asia or on the pontic steppe. Not one scientific study has shown European clades of R1a1 in India/Iran.

I asked you what haplogroup you are for the point of disclosure. I've no problem with saying the following:

• My Y-Chromosome haplogroup is: R1b1a2a1a2c1i (R1b-DF41)
• R1b-DF41 is a subclade of R1b-DF13, DF13 makes up about 90% of all R1b-L21+ men.
• I am a administrator of the Ireland yDNA Project in FTDNA with over 5k members
• I am the administrator of the R-DF41 & Subclades Project in FTDNA
• I've tested to 111 STR's as well as tested multiple SNP's so as to place R1b-DF41 on the ISOGG R tree
• I've also tested Autosomal DNA in the form of 23andme
• I'm in the process of awaiting my results on a Full Y-Chromosome scan (20-25 million megabases) which cost me about €1,200

The only person bringing race into is you. You seem to fail to reaslise that a haplogroup such as R1b-DF41 or say R1a1-Z93 originate in one man. All men carrying a specific SNP are thus direct male line descendants of one man. Do you really think that when the first man born carrying say R1a1-Z93 was conceived by immaculate conception? He was born into a grouping that consisted of many other men. The concept that they all belonged to the one haplogroup is farcial to be honest. Likewise your division of lineages into so call "races" seems to belay your own racialist view of the world.

What's probable is that Proto-Indo-Europeans consisted of multiple haplogroups, for example certain clades of Haplogroup J2. This probably reflects an acculturation process that happened in the ancient middle-east.

If anything from the ancient-DNA we know that R1a and R1b men were often co-travellers. There's the evidence of this from Germany. Of course given that the two lineages share common ancestor in the form of R1* it's hardly surprising that they inhabited the same general neck of the woods before expanding outwards.