Giving some of N.I. back to the Republic

marienbad

I have lost the thread of any discussion on this thread at this stage .Am I alone ?

Dr.Tank Adams

The Corinthian wrote: »

So how have "people of Gaelic Irish descent that consider themselves Irish" managed not to be culturally distinct? So far, you are effectively relying upon racialist arguments alone to claim commonality between north and south of the border (which doesn't solve the problem of those who are not genetically 'Gaelic Irish people' in NI) and last time I checked people's cultures are not passed on in genetic memory.

Maybe you should be posting on Stormfront rather than here? You don't really have much more than a racial argument going on from what I can see.

Another ad hominem. Until you can grow up a little, this is where I stop reading your nonsense.

Holy sh*t, now you're accusing me of being a racist?? I'll give you one thing, you're superb at deflecting from the fact that you have no evidence to back up your arguments. Ever think of getting involved in American politics? You could tell them about how similar they are to the "Northern Irish" while you're at it...:rolleyes:

And you are the one who is obsessing over genetics, the only reason I'm having to bring descriptions like "Gaelic Irish" into it is because I'm trying to get my point across to you which you clearly weren't understanding. Apparently you still don't understand because you are telling me that "Gaelic Irish" ARE distinct from Ulster-Scots, something which I HAVE CLEARLY ACCEPTED IN NUMEROUS POSTS. Are you even reading what I'm saying?? I accept that the British minority on this island is distinct from the Irish majority, what I do not accept is that the Irish minority in the north is distinct from the Irish majority in the south. WE ARE THE EXACT SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. To deny that is pure lunacy.

All of the above is completely irrelevant to the crux of this argument though (I wonder do you even remember what the argument is?). The fact that there is a British minority in Ireland does NOT JUSTIFY THE EXISTENCE OF A "NORTHERN IRISH" NATIONAL IDENTITY, BECAUSE "NORTHERN IRISHNESS" AND "BRITISHNESS" ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Please make a decent attempt at actually reading and comprehending what I have written this time, and I would advise you to refrain from calling people racists just to try and devalue their argument, makes you look like a shock-jock.

The Corinthian

Charles Rocher wrote: »

You would indeed and you'd be talking utter nonsense. The idea that some discernible change in the ethno-cultural character of the people takes place exactly at the border is nothing other than evidence of your own ridiculous prejudices.

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference that you're now at the point that you're ignoring a number of the points I made, but more importantly just turning to dismiss them.

Let me help you realise how utterly ridiculous your 'psycho-border' is. Here is a satellite image of the island - now think about how patently ridiculous it is that you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary line.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too? Clearly then, by your reasoning they're all one big happy nation; Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Polish and so on.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

Your point is nonsense and evidence only of your own prejudices and simplistic views.

And when all else fails go for a personal attack. Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic? Especially as you don't seem to be able to come up with any argument in favour that cannot be shot down with ease?

Satellite images :rolleyes:

on the river wrote: »

Wofle Tone is a patriotc AND should not be insulted:mad: . That is bang out of order .

Tone laid the foundation for future rebellions and remembered annually.

I did not direct my comment about Wolfe Tone to you, so why you feel the need to address that, is beyond me.

as regards to europe Ireland is already a member currency bailout etc,

Your srutiny of my argument is heavily flawed jumping at any refernce i make .

You act on impulsive. so really lets discuss "N.I GIVING SOME BACK TO REPUBLIC"

You've not responded to my point. Please do so. About the only thing that your response has in connection to my point is the word 'Europe', beyond that it's as random as you can get. If you are having difficulty understanding it, feel free to ask.

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Holy sh*t, now you're accusing me of being a racist??

Well the only argument you've managed to supply so far linking north and south has been a genetic one. So yes, basically if you're arguing solely on the basis of race, what does that the argument?

WE ARE THE EXACT SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. To deny that is pure lunacy.

You can put it all in caps if you want, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that the only argument you've presented so far for why we are the exact same group of people is genetic. Basically racial.

Otherwise, tell me, other than genetics, what other argument have you proffered?

Dr.Tank Adams

The Corinthian wrote: »

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference that you're now at the point that you're ignoring a number of the points I made, but more importantly just turning to dismiss them.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too? Clearly then, by your reasoning they're all one big happy nation; Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Polish and so on.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

And when all else fails go for a personal attack. Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic? Especially as you don't seem to be able to come up with any argument in favour that cannot be shot down with ease?

Satellite images :rolleyes:

I did not direct my comment about Wolfe Tone to you, so why you feel the need to address that, is beyond me.

You've not responded to my point. Please do so. About the only thing that your response has in connection to my point is the word 'Europe', beyond that it's as random as you can get. If you are having difficulty understanding it, feel free to ask.

Well the only argument you've managed to supply so far linking north and south has been a genetic one. So yes, basically if you're arguing solely on the basis of race, what does that the argument?

You can put it all in caps if you want, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that the only argument you've presented so far for why we are the exact same group of people is genetic. Basically racial.

Otherwise, tell me, other than genetics, what other argument have you proffered?

Sweet Jesus man, read back over the thread, nearly all of the arguments I have presented are to do with culture and history, genetics are only another aspect of it that we began discussing later. And you really do seem to have forgotten what this argument is about, are you engaged in so many arguments you forget which is which? THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT THE "NORTHERN IRISH" IDENTITY, NOT ABOUT LINKING IRISH PEOPLE NORTH AND SOUTH AS YOU SEEM TO THINK.

The only reason I even had to mention the link is because you sensationally claimed that the Irish in the north and south were not the same group of people????? Which is almost too stupid to be true. Once again though, congratulations on swerving the argument, from an argument on the "Northern Irish" identity, to accusing me of pushing "the nefarious Nationalist agenda" and now calling me a racist, you really do know how to use hysteria to mask the fact you have no salient points to make. I really do believe you'd perform excellently in U.S politics :L

The Corinthian

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Sweet Jesus man, read back over the thread, nearly all of the arguments I have presented are to do with culture and history, genetics are only another aspect of it that we began discussing later.

Which one by one ended up being debunked, to the point that all you've been left with for the last few posts has been the racial card to play.

The only reason I even had to mention the link is because you sensationally claimed that the Irish in the north and south were not the same group of people?????

Once upon a time that may have been true, but we've diverged in the last century, to the point that we're probably as close to each other as we would be to the English or Welsh - indeed, even genetically we probably have more relatives in England, on average, than up north. Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies.

Which is almost too stupid to be true.

And when you get to this level of childishness all you do is look as if you're in some sort of denial. You mightn't like to admit that, but maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

With respects, I think you've invested so heavily in the notion that there is no difference

Lol, honestly? This is the exact reverse of your non-point. It is you who is heavily invested in your ridiculous notion that the imaginary line is some sort of chasm that delineates two 'species'.

Here's is what I said.

Generally there'd be nothing in the way of ethno-cultural difference between people who consider themselves Irish in the counties on both sides of the border, certainly, no more than people on the border of Kerry/Cork would.

OK, that has to be one of the most moronic arguments I've ever read here. Look, here's a satellite picture of Europe, why don't you attempt to make a two colour, two piece jigsaw to describe the people that live on either side of the imaginary lines there too?

Have you lost all reason? You're the one trying to turn political boundaries into imagined ethno-cultural chasms not I.

Why don't you try explaining that teeny-weeny inconsistency in your logic?

It's not my logic that is in question here.

Grand so; might your own adherence to a romantic fantasy of 'one people' not simply be the delusion of a nationalist fanatic?

Again you've tried to attribute the reverse of your non-argument to me. Would you stop doing that please? I've not made any claim of an all island hive-mind like you have for those on either side of the border - I have a more sophisticated view of the people who inhabit this island.

Satellite images :rolleyes:

Oh dear, Mr rolleyes.

Karl Stein

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

And the Rugby, RTE (broadcast in the north now), music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

Which one by one ended up being debunked, to the point that all you've been left with for the last few posts has been the racial card to play.

Once upon a time that may have been true, but we've diverged in the last century, to the point that we're probably as close to each other as we would be to the English or Welsh - indeed, even genetically we probably have more relatives in England, on average, than up north. Seriously, most southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies.

And when you get to this level of childishness all you do is look as if you're in some sort of denial. You mightn't like to admit that, but maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

junder

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

I think that applies more to those denying the existence of a northern irish identity

Karl Stein

junder wrote: »

I think that applies more to those denying the existence of a northern irish identity

But how do you separate those who consider themselves 'Northern Irish' because of geography (the northern part of Ireland), politics (I'm Irish/Britsh/Ulster Scots but I'm from Northern Ireland) or some other motivation and is that an identity?

K-9

Mod:

We've had 3 Mod warnings on this thread and numerous cards handed out but it doesn't seem to have any effect. Posts are still petty and dismissive.

We also seem to have reached an impasse with little sign of some people giving an inch or even considering the other point of view, so at this stage, I don't think there's much of a shelf life left on this thread.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting about the GAA?

No, but then does southern support of the Premier league make us all English?

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Have you lost all reason? You're the one trying to turn political boundaries into imagined ethno-cultural chasms not I.

Maybe you could explain how this makes your satellite photo rebuttal less ridiculous. I mean seriously, you tried to claim that you can't have to countries in a geographical region because you can't see a physical border from space!

It's not my logic that is in question here.

It is, I questioned it. Pretending I didn't doesn't really get us very far.

Again you've tried to attribute the reverse of your non-argument to me. Would you stop doing that please? I've not made any claim of an all island hive-mind like you have for those on either side of the border - I have a more sophisticated view of the people who inhabit this island.

I don't belive you do because, for a start, I never argued there was a hive mind anywhere and even said so in my last post.

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I can only assume that your experiences with people fron the north are very limited. I doubt you have any basis for those assertions

Very grown up personal attack. Do you have something useful to say?

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

No

Well then seeing that sport can be considered part of one's culture, and that as well the GAA, we have the IRFU, GUI etc as all-Ireland bodies looking after their respective sports that have a large following throughout this island, then how are there very few or no common cultural points of reference between north & south?

but then does southern support of the Premier league make us all English?

If a PL supporter was born, raised and lives here, how does it make he/she English?

junder

Charles Rocher wrote: »

But how do you separate those who consider themselves 'Northern Irish' because of geography (the northern part of Ireland), politics (I'm Irish/Britsh/Ulster Scots but I'm from Northern Ireland) or some other motivation and is that an identity?

Considering the term northern irish was until recently ( when republicans realised how many catholics where now identifying themselves as northern irish) complete anathema to those from the nationalist community. Whether it was for geographical or political reasons the closest you ever got to the term northern Ireland was the ' north of Ireland' or simply 'the north' but never ever northern Ireland and woe be tied anybody from the nationalist community who referred to themselves as northern irish, but in reality that's neither here nor there. Ultimately it's up to the individual to define who other what they are. For me, Yes I am British but that's not my national identity in the same way being British is not the national identity of an English, Scottish or Welsh person. If somebody what's to identify themselves as northern irish merely for geographical reasons, that's thier business, my national identity is northern irish, I feel no affinity to the irish identity and while I share some traits wirh those from the Republic of Ireland, ( in much the same way as I share traits with Scottish, English and Welsh people) I am different.

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

Maybe you could explain how this makes your satellite photo rebuttal less ridiculous.

Because a satellite view of the island underscores the absurdity of your views.

The Corinthian: And if there's one thing I doubt even you can argue with a straight face is that the two populations are homogeneous.

Ergo they are heterogeneous and this heterogeneity is suddenly observable at an imaginary line. What a truly bizarre view to hold.

I mean seriously, you tried to claim that you can't have to countries in a geographical region because you can't see a physical border from space!

Yet again you present the opposite of your daft views and attribute them to me. This is the third time you've done it and the second time I've called you out on it and second time I'm asking you to stop doing it.

I don't belive you do because, for a start, I never argued there was a hive mind anywhere and even said so in my last post.

You've created an absurd psycho-border where 'two populations' suddenly change in character depending on what side of it they inhabit. It's difficult to take such a bizarre view seriously.

Would you hold the same bizarre views about people on either side of the border between Scotland and England, England and Wales, Austria and Germany?

Karl Stein

Considering the term northern irish was until recently ( when republicans realised how many catholics where now identifying themselves as northern irish) complete anathema to those from the nationalist community.

You're making the mistake of presuming that people who are Catholic and who identify as Northern Irish, for whatever reasons, are automatically somehow not Nationalist or Republican (at least aspirationally).

Whether it was for geographical or political reasons the closest you ever got to the term northern Ireland was the ' north of Ireland' or simply 'the north' but never ever northern Ireland

The SDLP and its supporters never shied away from the term Northern Ireland iirc.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Well then seeing that sport can be considered part of one's culture, and that as well the GAA, we have the IRFU, GUI etc as all-Ireland bodies looking after their respective sports that have a large following throughout this island, then how are there very few or no common cultural points of reference between north & south?

You do understand what you've described hardly constitutes many common cultural points of reference between north & south?

If a PL supporter was born, raised and lives here, how does it make he/she English?

Well according to you, if a GAA supporter was born, raised and lives in Britain, apparently that makes them Irish, so I'm just applying the same logic.

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Because a satellite view of the island underscores the absurdity of your views.

Did the satellite view of Europe I rebutted with not register with you? How by the same logic, Europe should not have any 'imaginary' borders either?

Ergo they are heterogeneous and this heterogeneity is suddenly observable at an imaginary line. What a truly bizarre view to hold.

No one has every suggested that heterogeneity is observable at an imaginary line, and already I pointed out that simelar 'blurring' occurs at national borders elsewhere; that's how national boundaries work.

Yet you're now constructing a straw man, attempting to use the example of the natural blurring of nations at the boarders between them to implying that this blurring is nationwide, which is nonsense. Some guy may have some commonality in his village in Monaghan with another just over the border, but that does not then imply that another guy in Cork shares the same traits.

Yet again you present the opposite of your daft views and attribute them to me. This is the third time you've done it and the second time I've called you out on it and second time I'm asking you to stop doing it.

You've created an absurd psycho-border where 'two populations' suddenly change in character depending on what side of it they inhabit. It's difficult to take such a bizarre view seriously.

But that's just an extension of your staw man; you can argue the same thing, suggesting that someone living just over the border from Germany in the Netherlands cannot be suddenly different from their German counterpart just over that border, and then imply, as you are, that the same applies for a Bavarian, or for that matter a Greek.

Would you hold the same bizarre views about people on either side of the border between Scotland and England, England and Wales, Austria and Germany?

What I find bizarre is that you don't appear to understand what a country is. You're always going to get blurring at the borders and always shall; there's been many wars fought over bordering regions that should belong on one side of the other.

Even if you visit them it's often difficult to tell what country you're in; if you're ever in Constance, Germany, they basically speak the same dialect as they do over the border in Kreuzlingen, Switzerland; you'll be hard pushed to tell someone from the former apart from the latter.

So should all of Switzerland, or the German speaking part, be unified with Germany? This is the argument you're coming out with after all; because the border areas are simelar, ergo the whole of the two countries must be. And that's clearly nonsense.

Or where do you want to draw the border otherwise? After all, there's not that much difference between many Scots and Northern Irish - only that wee stretch of water between them. Or perhaps the English and Scots should forget about the border between them seeing as towns on both sides of their border share many similarities too.

Shall we just stretch the borders in every direction until there are no borders left, or did you have a convenient solution that for some reason marked water as the only true border? I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the position you'd like to cherry pick.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

You do understand what you've described hardly constitutes many common cultural points of reference between north & south?

It renders inaccurate your use of the word 'none'. Plus it's a pretty noticeable example of evidence to the contrary of your original statement.

Well according to you, if a GAA supporter was born, raised and lives in Britain, apparently that makes them Irish, so I'm just applying the same logic.

Never said that. My GAA reference was related to the supposed very few or absence of north south cultural commonalities brought up by you.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

It renders inaccurate your use of the word 'none'.

I never said none; in fact my argument has always been that there is as simelar a commonality between a citizen of the RoI and a Scot or Englishman, as there is with a NI citizen. I note there's a lot of desperate straw men being thrown about in this discussion.

Plus it's a pretty noticeable example of evidence to the contrary of your original statement.

And an easily rebutted noticeable example of evidence, as I pointed out.

Never said that. My GAA reference was related to the supposed very few or absence of north south cultural commonalities brought up by you.

Oh, it's 'few' now, not 'none'...

So how does it debunk a claim that there are "very few" commonalities? You do understand, pointing out one or two sports doesn't actually manage to prove anything more than greater than zero, which I never claimed?

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

I never said none;

Post #256:

very few to none with nordies

Why say 'none' then if you don't actually mean it?

in fact my argument has always been that there is as simelar a commonality between a citizen of the RoI and a Scot or Englishman, as there is with a NI citizen.

So are there very few to no commonalities with the English & Scots too?

And an easily rebutted noticeable example of evidence, as I pointed out.

England v Ireland in the rugby this Saturday? Not noticeable? Quite......

Oh, it's 'few' now, not 'none'...

? Your words again. You used both.

So how does it debunk a claim that there are "very few" commonalities? You do understand, pointing out one or two sports doesn't actually manage to prove anything more than greater than zero, which I never claimed?

Most people north & south speak English as their first language. It's only one example of a commonality. But because it's only one, is it also insignificant?

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Post #256:

You do understand that the expression "very few to none" does not actually mean 'none' - unless you choose to ignore the other three words.

So are there very few to no commonalities with the English & Scots too?

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

England v Ireland in the rugby this Saturday? Not noticeable? Quite......

I think you'll find that there's lots of people who don't notice rugby. Same with GAA. Or cricket (one which I note you omitted). If you're relying on sport as your sole binding force in a nation, you're going to have a bit of a problem there.

Most people north & south speak English as their first language. It's only one example of a commonality. But because it's only one, is it also insignificant?

And English is also the language of... England. And we both watch both the Premier league. Should we rejoin the union? By your logic there's certainly a rational for doing so.

Please read what I've actually, repeatedly written on this. Your average Joe in NI has grown up with a different educational system, currency, economy, politics and political parties, social welfare system and even traditions than a southerner. They had World War II - we had 'the Emergency'. They had 'the Troubles' we, basically didn't. They have a different demographic mix; they even have protestants; we got rid of most of ours in the 1930's.

Many of the things they've grown up with bare closer similarity to other UK citizens than to us. There's a few nationalistic aspirations based upon stuff that happened a long time ago all right, but that's an aspiration, not something in common. There's a few north-south initiatives, such as the GAA too. Indeed another thing that we had in common was UTV and BBC Northern Ireland (unless you were unlucky to grow up in the south east, in which case you got the Welsh channels).

But I use the Euro and before that the Punt. I have to pay for my medical care and dentists through the nose. I did the Leaving Cert and had to learn Irish, because without it I couldn't get into most universities here. Since the nineties at least, I've been able to drink in a pub after 11pm and shops have always been able to open on Sundays. We had Quinnsworth and Superquinn growing up (although, now we all must bow to the almighty Tesco) For me a parade is something they have on Paddy's day. I've never seen a machine gun wielded on the streets in my home town.

And that's the thing; it would be nice if we were the same, but we're not. Certainly while neither is a Kerryman to a Dub, the difference it tiny when compared to either that Kerryman or Dub to some bloke in Belfast, or Ballymena or Coleraine.

Whether this is because of nearly a century of partition or because we were always different (even prior to partition 'ulster' was a bit of a special case), doesn't really matter any more, it just is, and grasping at straws and pretending we're all one happy nation because the have a few things in common, and frankly not many more than we have with the other British nations, is pretty delusional.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

Very grown up personal attack. Do you have something useful to say?

How is that a personal attack?

I have lived in both the North and the Republic and I can't see any basis for what you are asserting, none at all. I think it is fair to question your level of direct experience in how you arrived at your thesis as to the lack of commonality between people from two parts of the island.

Surely to have arrived at such a conclusion you must have a wealth of experience to draw upon

ancapailldorcha

R P McMurphy wrote: »

How is that a personal attack?

I have lived in both the North and the Republic and I can't see any basis for what you are asserting, none at all. I think it is fair to question your level of direct experience in how you arrived at your thesis as to the lack of commonality between people from two parts of the island.

Surely to have arrived at such a conclusion you must have a wealth of experience to draw upon

I've lived in both and I certainly see some basis for The Corinthian's posts. I've not been reading the last few pages of this thread too thoroughly as it meandered a bit off topic but IMO, there are definitely cultural differences, as The Corinthian has mentioned and listed in his latest post.

The Corinthian

R P McMurphy wrote: »

How is that a personal attack?

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

Well I thought it would clearly relate to the point in this quoted text "almost southerners have common cultural points of reference with each other when we mix - politics, education, economics, and so on - we've very few to none with nordies". If you believe this then I would assume you know relatively few people from the North

The Corinthian

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

You do understand that the expression "very few to none" does not actually mean 'none' - unless you choose to ignore the other three words.

I genuinely don't want to turn this into a discussion on it's own. I just think you shouldn't have used the term 'none' tbh.

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

What areas are covered by the term 'cultural relationship' by your understanding of it?

I think you'll find that there's lots of people who don't notice rugby. Same with GAA.

But many do notice or follow them all the same.

Or cricket (one which I note you omitted).

Not intentionally I assure you. An all-Ireland body administers it too, with players from both north & south (Kevin & Niall O'Brien from Dublin) on the team. I watch it now and again, plus a great win over the Windies last night too.

If you're relying on sport as your sole binding force in a nation, you're going to have a bit of a problem there.

I'm not simultaneously denying that there are divergent forces too.

And English is also the language of... England. And we both watch both the Premier league. Should we rejoin the union? By your logic there's certainly a rational for doing so.

I personally have no urge to do the bit in bold, despite speaking English and watching the PL. As a rationale I think thats a very weak argument.

There's a few north-south initiatives, such as the GAA too. Indeed another thing that we had in common was UTV and BBC Northern Ireland (unless you were unlucky to grow up in the south east, in which case you got the Welsh channels).

Charles Rocher listed the following in addition to sport:

'RTE (broadcast in the north now), music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc.'

Since leisure time, as well as work, is important to people north and south, we have alot of commonality in this area don't you think?

And that's the thing; it would be nice if we were the same, but we're not. Certainly while neither is a Kerryman to a Dub, the difference it tiny when compared to either that Kerryman or Dub to some bloke in Belfast, or Ballymena or Coleraine.

As opposed to people in Lifford and Strabane, Blacklion and Belcoo, Crossmaglen and Dundalk, Derry and Donegal?

pretending we're all one happy nation because the have a few things in common, and frankly not many more than we have with the other British nations

Not pretending at all, and definitely not as regards to 'one happy nation'.

R P McMurphy

The Corinthian wrote: »

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

Of course it relates to it

Karl Stein

The Corinthian wrote: »

Did the satellite view of Europe I rebutted with not register with you? How by the same logic, Europe should not have any 'imaginary' borders either?

Who said there shouldn't be borders? Again you attribute an argument to me I have not made - I'm losing count as to how many times you've done this and how often I've asked you to stop and, frankly, it's boring having to wade through.

No one has every suggested that heterogeneity is observable at an imaginary line, and already I pointed out that simelar 'blurring' occurs at national borders elsewhere; that's how national boundaries work.

You specifically said the two populations and used the imaginary line as a delineator - I've shown this idea that there are two species on either side of the border to absolute rubbish.

I'm done here except to say your two piece, two colour jigsaw concept of the people of Ireland is evidence only of your poor understanding and prejudices.

on the river

The Corinthian wrote: »

What you "thought it would clearly relate to" ultimately didn't. You made a personal attack on me and did not even mention a single point I made in passing. Please stop trying to spin a personal attack as something more noble.

:eek:

You made personal attacks on me countless times without any apology.:( Then you say your the victim. Please engage with debate.

The Corinthian

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

I genuinely don't want to turn this into a discussion on it's own. I just think you shouldn't have used the term 'none' tbh.

Fair enough.

What areas are covered by the term 'cultural relationship' by your understanding of it?

I listed out a whole ream of examples. ancapailldorcha even cited them.

But many do notice or follow them all the same.

Yes, I understand that; I was pointing out that it is a weak example. Other than being one of the few, and simelar examples existing that could apply to our cultural affinity with the English, for example, it also is nowhere near universal. A weak example.

I'm not simultaneously denying that there are divergent forces too.

A lie of omission is still a lie; you're avoiding any mention of such forces and have been going to pains to only cite the similarities. That's a bias meant to mislead through omission, I'm afraid. At least I admit there are similarities; my argument is that they're too few or frankly not significantly much more than for any other nation in the UK.

I personally have no urge to do the bit in bold, despite speaking English and watching the PL. As a rationale I think thats a very weak argument.

But the problem is that the arguments you've used, showing how the populations north and south are simelar, can also be applied to England. You may not have any urge, but look at all we have in common with the English using the same logic as you've used for the nordies. Not a Hell of a difference, TBH.

Charles Rocher listed the following in addition to sport:

Sure; music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc... and stuff... Actually, when they make Irish obligatory in school then I might take his point a little more seriously.

As opposed to people in Lifford and Strabane, Blacklion and Belcoo, Crossmaglen and Dundalk, Derry and Donegal?

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them? Bit daft.

Not pretending at all, and definitely not as regards to 'one happy nation'.

I think you are pretending, or in denial. We realistically stopped being one nation a good few years ago. You might disagree, but in my experience, this would be for ideological rather than practical reasons.

Charles Rocher wrote: »

You specifically said the two populations and used the imaginary line as a delineator - I've shown this idea that there are two species on either side of the border to absolute rubbish.

Then the Germans and French are not different peoples? After all, you've never claimed there shouldn't be borders and seeing as you never commented on my European satellite photo (avoided doing so), you must concur there too.

That's why your satellite photo was so laughable.

I'm done here except to say your two piece, two colour jigsaw concept of the people of Ireland is evidence only of your poor understanding and prejudices.

Or your blinkered 'nation once again' concept is little more than a romantic aspiration that is at best woefully out of date and at worst the dangerous delusion of a fanatic.

valor rorghulis

Having lived in both jurisdictions there certainly is a very different feel to Northern Ireland. After a hundred years of different economies, school systems, voting and communities that was always going to happen.

Whilst I wouldn't feel like a foreigner up there, I can see the unionist argument too because I've never felt like a foreigner in Cardiff, Bristol or Edinburgh either.

I think a lot of southerners get the wrong impression about the way unionists describe themselves as British. Its perceived as "I am a British person in the part of Ireland we own" whereas the reality is they just see Northern Ireland and Great Britain as being one nation (the UK) and British is the description of that nationality.

I used to be quite nationalist minded but I think recent history has really distorted our view of ourselves and the British. I think we have completely blown out of proportion any cultural differences between us. Having also lived in Europe it has showed me how similar the Irish and British really are.

More and more I just see Britain, Ireland and IoM as one cultural nation. Its a farce we have a different currency to them yet we have the same one as Greece, Germany & Latvia

K-9

The Corinthian wrote: »

You failed to cite, rebut or even mention anything I said in my post. Instead you attacked me directly, claiming that anything I said was clearly because my "experiences with people from the north are very limited". And that was the height of your arguments, not that you wrote much, against anything I wrote.

Attack the post, not the poster - as the expression goes - and you only did the latter.

While generally I wouldn't be a fan of the "you don't live here/there" point, I do think given the context of the way the thread has drifted (which you have driven to a large extent), wondering about how much experience somebody actually has of N.I. life/culture is a valid question to pose. You are claiming there are few to no cultural similarities, the poster is wondering why you have come to that belief and if you have any/how much experience you have of N.I. day to day life.

I do not view that question as a personal attack, it seems a perfectly reasonable question.

on the river wrote:

You made personal attacks on me countless times without any apology. Then you say your the victim. Please engage with debate.

There is way too much back seat modding going on in this thread. Whether somebody is or is not engaging with debate is up to the mods to decide.

General Note:

Report posts to the mods if you feel somebody is personally attacking you, or not engaging in debate/discussion. Plenty of on thread warnings and cards have been handed out at this stage, bans from the forum will be handed out next for flagrant flouting of moderator instructions.

ancapailldorcha

The Isle of Man is a weird one. Parts of it feel very British (Douglas and Onchan) but other areas (Peel and Ramsey) definitely have their own feel and culture to them. The accent is very similar with parts of England but they're quite militant that they're a separate nation and the only Manx I've dealt with will react with hostility to the suggestion that the IoM is part of the UK.

Mr Cumulonimbus

The Corinthian wrote: »

I listed out a whole ream of examples. ancapailldorcha even cited them.

So what examples are you using to support the following statement:

There's probably more between the Scots and English, than southern and northern Irish, as they have significantly more points of reference, but yes - ultimately the cultural relationship between them, would not be dissimilar as ours would be to them.

A weak example.

It's not weak when thousands throughout this island follow these sports.

A lie of omission is still a lie; you're avoiding any mention of such forces and have been going to pains to only cite the similarities. That's a bias meant to mislead through omission

You do remember what it was I originally disagreed with you about, don't you?

But the problem is that the arguments you've used, showing how the populations north and south are simelar, can also be applied to England. You may not have any urge, but look at all we have in common with the English using the same logic as you've used for the nordies. Not a Hell of a difference, TBH.

I've never used my argument in this thread as a basis for any sort of political launching pad, plus neither have I said it applies exclusively to this island.

Sure; music, dance, language (both English and Irish), literature, film/TV, etc etc... and stuff...

They are commonalities.

Actually, when they make Irish obligatory in school

Where?

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them?

Again you're attributing stuff to me I haven't said.

I think you are pretending, or in denial.

Nope. It's your artful interpretation of my posts thats stands out more.

We realistically stopped being one nation a good few years ago.

Nation versus state. Are they one and the same in an Irish context?

You might disagree, but in my experience, this would be for ideological rather than practical reasons.

Once again, looking for things I haven't said.

Sheldons Brain

There is a lot of waffle here, as usual. Anyone who thinks that culture in the Republic has as much in common with England as NI only has to go to a funeral.

So, the whole of Ireland has to unite with them, because the border areas are not unalike them?

The opposite side of the coin is why should Irish people in Belcoo should be treated in an inferior way to Irish people in Blacklion? Is "equality" not all the rage these days?

Richard

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Isle of Man is a weird one. Parts of it feel very British (Douglas and Onchan) but other areas (Peel and Ramsey) definitely have their own feel and culture to them. The accent is very similar with parts of England but they're quite militant that they're a separate nation and the only Manx I've dealt with will react with hostility to the suggestion that the IoM is part of the UK.

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

Richard

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is a lot of waffle here, as usual. Anyone who thinks that culture in the Republic has as much in common with England as NI only has to go to a funeral.

Depends on the funeral.

Obviously NI has more in common with the Republic than England does, although there are big differences as well as the similarities. Mind you England and the Republic share the concept of "normal politics" which NI still hasn't managed to grasp yet.

The opposite side of the coin is why should Irish people in Belcoo should be treated in an inferior way to Irish people in Blacklion? Is "equality" not all the rage these days?

Different doesn't mean inferior.

ancapailldorcha

Richard wrote: »

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

They don't. I was threatened with violence once by a rather large Manx chap for asking if they were British.

spank_inferno

Richard wrote: »

Well it's not part of the UK, never has been, although it is British (mind you I'm not sure whether they feel particularly British).

What country is the Isle of Man part of?

ancapailldorcha

spank_inferno wrote: »

What country is the Isle of Man part of?

It's a self-governing nation, though the UK is responsible for it's defence.

on the river

that is correct

on the river

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

Richard

on the river wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

That's an interesting report.

ChicagoJoe

on the river wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZT8YTNYph8

This shows the view of the ctiizens of Northern Ireland

I wouldn't take a poll by a very British institution like the BBC too seriously, let's say if the GAA comissioned a poll on a United Ireland, I bet the findings would be very pro a UI. From what I have seen down the years almost all of these ' offical ' polls always seem to concur with the ambitions of the British/unionists.

Take the NILT 2010 poll - DUP 18%, SDLP 17%, UUP 16%, Sinn Fein 11%, Alliance 10%.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Political_Attitudes/POLPART2.html

But how they actually voted - DUP 24.96%, SDLP 16.47%, UUP 15.19% Sinn Fein 25.52%
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/2010west/rw2010.htm

ChicagoJoe

Richard wrote: »

That's an interesting report.

I would not bother too much with it, if the unionists/British had any real belief in its findings they would want a border poll immediately. The fact that they don't says how afraid of it they are (even though I'd think the unionists would win but it would only be 4 or 5%).

RoyalCelt

Just on the topic of unity lads, what sports on this island are united and what sports are divided between north and south.

United: Cricket, Rugby, GAA
Separate: Soccer, Pool, Olympics they either go with republic or UK.

What other sports are there either united or separate?

And i wonder will we ever united for soccer, considering both sides could really do with it.

seachto7

All depends what you mean by "united".

I don't think you would get many Protestants, if any, playing GAA in NI, same as you might not get many Catholics playing rugby, though I would imagine the soccer scene is all encompasing, but still "divided" in terms of who supports who.

There is, from what I can see, a fairly nationalist/republican atmosphere at GAA matches in NI. I think Ravenhill try to aim for a more neutral atmosphere at the rugby. I don't think I have ever seen a union jack at an Ulster game, and saw an NI flag once at an away game. But I wouldn't say rugby is any less middle class than the GAA, well down south, the GAA is a very middle class game now.

I don't think we'll ever see a united soccer team. I would like to see it. I couldn't care less if it were called the teletubbies 11 instead of "Ireland" and I couldn't care less if the anthem was an ice cream van jingle, the idea of all "communities" getting behind the one team would be good enough for me.

Much as the loyalists/unionists like to bang on about Britain, the fact is they are not English, Scottish or Welsh, and are Irish (and British) whether they like it or not, due to the fact they are born and raised on the rock that is geographically called "Ireland".

But you only have to go online to see the propaganda being spread by extremists on both sides which only goes to divide people further.

oscarBravo

seachto7 wrote: »

Much as the loyalists/unionists like to bang on about Britain, the fact is they are not English, Scottish or Welsh, and are Irish (and British) whether they like it or not, due to the fact they are born and raised on the rock that is geographically called "Ireland".

But you only have to go online to see the propaganda being spread by extremists on both sides which only goes to divide people further.

Indeed.