Barking and spray Collars

Ants Murray

Max is a lovely 10 month old Choc Lab. Over the last few nights he's started barking at 2am, 4am, 5am (you get my drift). Both my neighbours work shifts and one came into us last night and very nicely complained. They also have a new baby so I can totally understand. Funnily enough he didn't bark once last night, it's like he sensed something was wrong but anyway I'm not taking any chances with him. Did some research online and apparently spray collars are the way to go ... anybody any experience in using them, do they work, are they cruel and will they turn him into an absolute lunatic? Feel I need a quick fix here as the wife is getting annoyed, think she could live with the garden furniture being chewed but doesn't want to by annoying the neighbours.

borderlinemeath

Firstly, yes they are cruel. You're not dealing with the cause of the barking, merely punishing the dog for reacting to something in the only way he knows how. You will only scare the dog into submission by using a spray collar rather than dealing with the problem itself. As you said yourself, it's a "quick fix" but for the dogs well being, it's absolutely not a long term solution.

Firstly, where does the dog sleep? I presume because the garden furniture is being eaten, he sleeps outside. So he can obviously hear something that is setting him off. He's no longer a puppy, he's a young adolescent dog so will react to noises or things that spook him. Another reason is that he may be under exercised and is basically telling you at the most inappropriate time. While all dogs chew, it is normally an indication of boredom, lack of interaction with their family, or of frustration that they are outside while their family is inside. Dogs are social creatures and fare much better being allowed in to be with their human family.

What are the chances of letting him sleep indoors? He may feel more secure, hear less noises and generally be more contented closer to his humans.

Ants Murray

He's definitely not under exercised. He's out at 7am for a run on the beach. He out mid afternoon to pick the kids up from school and he get a final walk about 9pm for about 45mins to settle him. If only I could convince the missus to keep him indooors, don't think its going to happen. In fairness the chewing has stopped and he has plenty on toys to keep the jaws busy. He's in with us once the kids go to bed so from 8:30pm to 12:30pm so I'm assuming that's enough socialisation, and I might add he is totally quiet in the house. Comes in, plays with his blanket and falls asleep. I appreciate your feedback.

andreac

I don't understand why the dog has to outside to sleep if it's allowed indoors in the evening? I never get why people put a dog outside to sleep? What's the actual reasoning behind this?
Letting the dog just sleep indoors will solve your problem.

bluejelly

i have never heard of spray collars but if there is any chance they are cruel then i definitely wouldn't use them. I agree with borderlinemeath regarding letting him sleep indoors.Labs are very loving dogs and just want to be close to their owners at all times so sleeping inside would help him feel more secure and also block out any movement/noises during the night which would cause him to bark. Do you have a utility that you could let him sleep in? If there is a pattern to his barking it could be the neighbours coming home from shift work setting him off or the bin collection trucks which work through the night (cause of our lab barking).

cocker5

OP,

Can you not just let him sleep inside? this would solve your problems.

Personally i just dont see the point in having him sleep outside... why have a dog if they are not part of the family?

using a spray collar does not address the issue of why he's barking, maybe hes cold... hungry, scared , heard a strange noise etc... alot of this would be sorted if you just let him sleep inside where he would be realxed and sleep through the night.

meoklmrk91

Honestly just keep him inside, dog gets a better nights sleep because he's not being disturbed, the neighbours get a better night sleep and you don't have to be worrying about him disturbing the neighbours.

tk123

Could you crate him at night/restrict him with a puppy pen/baby gates? My retriever pup is 8 months and sleeps in her crate at night and not a peep out of her.

Ants Murray

Thanks all for your replies. Space is tight in the house so keeping outside was what we agreed before getting him. We have a storage room / toilet in the hallway. Would it be cruel to keep him in the crate locked up at night? I sort of like the idea of him roaming around the garden if we wakes in the middle of the night?

andreac

But if he fits in the house when you bring him in then there's plenty of space. He will be asleep, curled up in his bed. He doesn't need space at night.

cocker5

Ants Murray wrote: »

Thanks all for your replies. Space is tight in the house so keeping outside was what we agreed before getting him. We have a storage room / toilet in the hallway. Would it be cruel to keep him in the crate locked up at night? I sort of like the idea of him roaming around the garden if we wakes in the middle of the night?

Honestly 99.9% of dogs are happy curled up in their beds, they rarely roam around at night, infact they get a far better sleep inside undistrubed etc.

How big is your storage room? will it fit his crate? remember he's a Lab so going to need a big enough crate.

Where does he relax sleep when he's in the house from 8.30pm - 12.30pm?

does he have an area to chill out? ie bed / blanket?

if its on the floor in the kitchen then possible buy him a plastic bed, put some blankets in it, and he will sleep there. possibly by the back door?

I know you mentioned space is tight but once he's in and his bed is there it will become "part of the furniture" and youll get used to it.

no different than having kids toys everywhere, you just get used to it.

One thing i will say is unless you are going to crate him plase dont levae anything on the floors, kids toys, shooes if he's not being crated as the temptation to too great for a young dog to resist... BTW this is not supposed to put you off having him in, more trying to reduce the possiblty of him getting in trouble for something thats avoidable...

aonb

Ants Murray wrote: »

Thanks all for your replies. Space is tight in the house so keeping outside was what we agreed before getting him. We have a storage room / toilet in the hallway. Would it be cruel to keep him in the crate locked up at night? I sort of like the idea of him roaming around the garden if we wakes in the middle of the night?

If the storage room/toilet in the hallway is small you wont need a crate, you could just put his blanket/bed in there at night and close the door - leaving a bowl of water with him - he would be fine. Any little noise in the garden is going to set him off barking naturally - he is protecting his property - you cant punish him for barking when he is outside and hears a noise - whether its someone in a neighbouring house, or a cat, or the wind, or nothing, or something suspicious.

Tea Tree

I'm imagining the complaints we'd get if our dog was left out at night as she's a real barker :eek:
At night she runs into her bed space by the back door in the utility room
(always gets a treat going in). There's rarely a sound out of her at night and on the rare occasion she does bark we're the only ones who will hear it.
Some neighbours had their old lab sleep in the downstairs toilet room. Not a problem.. it was his bed space. If you are trying it I would recommend making it nice and cosy (bed/ blanket) and a treat when he goes in.

Tea Tree

Oh and those spray collars can be totally counter productive as the dog learns that if they bark enough the "stuff" eventually runs out....

Richard tea

Op, I used a remote controlled spray collar and it worked a treat. Its nothing more than a citrus spray. My problem was the neighbourhood cats decide they want to climb the back garden walls at 2, 3 ,4 5am which sets my dog off. Normally I would give him one minute to stop the barking himself and if he doesnt ill hit the spray button and that stops him. The trouble is you dont want to discourage him from barking at a possible thief or someone braking into your home so dont go overboard with the spray.

cocker5

Richard tea wrote: »

Op, I used a remote controlled spray collar and it worked a treat. Its nothing more than a citrus spray. My problem was the neighbourhood cats decide they want to climb the back garden walls at 2, 3 ,4 5am which sets my dog off. Normally I would give him one minute to stop the barking himself and if he doesnt ill hit the spray button and that stops him. The trouble is you dont want to discourage him from barking at a possible thief or someone braking into your home so dont go overboard with the spray.

Really good idea punish your dog for doing something natural to him... And then confuse him even further only punish him sometimes when he barks and not all the time... That's really clear signals for ur dog.

Richard tea

cocker5 wrote: »

Really good idea punish your dog for doing something natural to him... And then confuse him even further only punish him sometimes when he barks and not all the time... That's really clear signals for ur dog.

Nothing natural about waking me and the neighbors up at all hours. Im not getting pulled into a debate on the issue. Just answering the Op question.

DBB

Richard tea wrote: »

Op, I used a remote controlled spray collar and it worked a treat. Its nothing more than a citrus spray. My problem was the neighbourhood cats decide they want to climb the back garden walls at 2, 3 ,4 5am which sets my dog off. Normally I would give him one minute to stop the barking himself and if he doesnt ill hit the spray button and that stops him. The trouble is you dont want to discourage him from barking at a possible thief or someone braking into your home so dont go overboard with the spray.

Nobody disputes they can work. However, it's at the expense of the dog's welfare. It might be "just a citrus spray" to you, but to the ultra-sensitive nose of the dog? I can imagine it feels like being assaulted. The bottom line is, if it wasn't unpleasant for the dog, it wouldn't work. There is no excuse for anyone to use unpleasant gear or training techniques, particularly when there are ethical and non-aversive alternatives.

I hate these collars. But I particularly hate the remote-controlled type that you speak of, because they rely on the owner having an excellent sense of timing that they press that button (a) at just the precise moment so that the dog makes the correct association, and (b) every single time the dog barks.
By only intermittently punishing the bark, you are watering down the effectiveness of this horrible piece of gear by a large factor, and it means you have to use it over a much longer period of time than if it was being used properly. It's even worse that you would allow him to carry out the undesired behaviour for a while before randomly punishing him for it. But it's pretty much always the same with these things, the people who use them have no grasp of what they're actually teaching their dog, nor the potential fallout of using punishment in a random, mistimed fashion. For shame.
At least the automatic ones stand a good chance of dolling out the punishment at the right moment, every time, and so don't tend to have to be used for such a period of time. That's if they work at all.

Now, I know you're going to say "well it worked for me", the old chestnut that everyone uses when they try to justify hurting their dog in the name of training. But it's not good enough, particularly not in light of what we know about how aversive these things can be.

Why, oh why should the OP put a piece of gear on his dog, which has been shown not to work on all dogs, and which absolutely 100% affects the welfare of the dog at least to some degree, when he could just bring the dog inside in a win-win situation?

cocker5

Richard tea wrote: »

Nothing natural about waking me and the neighbors up at all hours. Im not getting pulled into a debate on the issue. Just answering the Op question.

Fair answer on the dog is keep him inside.. It's very simple really

Other option punish him for natural behaviour and then when he barks at intruders don't punish him for again doing what comes natural to him - conflicting messages for ur dog . You did what was best for u not your dog.

DBB

Richard tea wrote: »

Nothing natural about waking me and the neighbors up at all hours. Im not getting pulled into a debate on the issue. Just answering the Op question.

Great! Shove a highly aversive spray up your dog's nose, recommend it to another poster, and then bugger off when anyone pulls you up on it!
Nice one Richard!

Richard tea

DBB wrote: »

Great! Shove a highly aversive spray up your dog's nose, recommend it to another poster, and then bugger off when anyone pulls you up on it!
Nice one Richard!

Its not like that. I find the animals and pet issues forum to be far too delicate for any sort of debate. I prob need to put the collar on the dog about 5 times a year for one night. Op has made it clear that the dog cannot sleep in the house yet poster after poster tells him otherwise.

Question, How do you stop a 7 year old GSD barking at cats at night? Bringing him into the house is not an option.

borderlinemeath

Richard tea wrote: »

Nothing natural about waking me and the neighbors up at all hours. Im not getting pulled into a debate on the issue. Just answering the Op question.

Actually, the OP also asked are they cruel. You managed to avoid that part of answering the question.

borderlinemeath

Richard tea wrote: »

Its not like that. I find the animals and pet issues forum to be far too delicate for any sort of debate. I prob need to put the collar on the dog about 5 times a year for one night. Op has made it clear that the dog cannot sleep in the house yet poster after poster tells him otherwise.

Question, How do you stop a 7 year old GSD barking at cats at night? Bringing him into the house is not an option.

There's plenty of debate in the A&PI forum. But posters who use unethical tools and training methods that compromise their pets welfare don't like being told so.

I don't get how things can be so black and white with bringing a dog into the house. The OP has stated that 'space is tight'. But it's the obvious solution to the problem. It's well documented that dogs will sleep better at night indoors, they have very sensitive hearing so will hear a lot less when cocooned within a house than outside in the open when they are always a little bit alert.

Why is bringing in your GSD not an option?

DBB

Richard tea wrote: »

Its not like that. I find the animals and pet issues forum to be far too delicate for any sort of debate. I prob need to put the collar on the dog about 5 times a year for one night. Op has made it clear that the dog cannot sleep in the house yet poster after poster tells him otherwise.

It's becoming clearer now... you have to keep using it? And it takes 5 whole blasts in one night to eventually quieten him? It's not really working too well then, is it? I suspect for the reasons I've already posted.
It's just used to randomly assault the dog's nasal passages on one night a year? I'm a little sceptical that you or your neighbours would get peed off with one disturbed night in the year, but maybe I'm a little more tolerant.

You might call the forum "delicate", but the thing is that the stuff you've just advised upon has been shown to negatively affect dog welfare, and will not be used by people who are qualified to make the call on these things, except in some very rare instances... barking in the garden is not one of them.
I don't call that being delicate, I call it being well-informed, and getting frustrated with people who still, in this day and age, come along and advise the users to use lazy training techniques that contrarily affect the welfare of the animal concerned.
People are telling the OP that bringing the dog in is best way to keep his dog quiet... you might not like it, but this is true, and by far the easiest and most ethical way to solve the problem. OP has not categorically stated that the dog can't be inside, and has gone as far to float the idea of giving the dog a small room in the house to sleep in. In fact, the whole discussion had died a death until you weighed in with your advice that would not be given by someone who is qualified to give behavioural advice.

How to stop him? Well, your collar hasn't worked.
First thing to understand is, why's the dog barking?
GSDs are barky dogs. Dogs have a much higher likelihood to become nuisance barkers when they're living on their own for too long each day. If you can't/won't provide for the social needs of the dog, you're going to suffer some consequences. In this case, the dog, a guarding (and herding) breed that has been bred for generations to bark at things that are infiltrating its home-base, is being punished for things that it perceives to be infiltrating his home base.

To train him, positively, away form barking:
Dogs that are taught well to do something on command will generally tend not to carry out the behaviour unless they're told to. So, I'd suggest you get that bark of his under command control... using positive, reward-based techniques, of course.
Whilst you're teaching him that, you can concurrently teach him a "quiet" command, so that if he does bark at things that are annoying him in the garden, you can stick your head out the garden window and ask him to be quiet...as it is, you're already using a remote control at these times to stop him, so asking him for silence is more ethical, and will probably work a lot better (i.e. I'll bet you that if you teach him this stuff properly, you won't have to get up 5 times in one night to quieten him)
I'd suggest that you have a stuffed Kong, or some type of chewy, food-based toy, to give him when he does fall silent, to keep him occupied whilst he settles back to rest.

Inexile

I have to confess that when I was less informed I have used on of these in the past. It cost about €100 and it worked. Well it did for a a week or 10 days and then it stopped working. I think my dog got accustomed to it or as some one else said used up the spray quickly. But now I know the effect on the dog I would not recommend them again as you aren't dealing with the cause of the problem just the outcome which is really no good.

You would really be better of spending the cash on a crate - if space is an issue and your dog is not a chewer get one of the canvas ones as they fold up very neatly or put a child gate on a door in a room that you are happy for the dog to be in.

Its more effective and less damaging to the dog as well.

Ants Murray

Update: Based on the discussion I've decided against the spray, I've checked out some youtube footage and I wouldn't be a fan. It would be a last resort. Sometimes its good to get some advice from other dog owners so thanks for all the replies. I've ended up putting him out for the last two nights anyway. It's like he knew something was up and he hasn't barked once, he actually went straight for the door to be let out at 12.30 on both occasions so I think he likes his kennel (added to the Kong Toy with frozen peanut butter). Obviously I'll keep my ears open but for now it's stopped and we have happy neighbours again. Thanks again for all the replies.