SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

bk

Praetorian wrote: »

I can't see them do a widespread rollout of FTTH for at least 5 years. What do others think? Their Vdsl is really good.

I agree, I think they will try and milk the most out of VDSL for the next few years.

Remember, even though the first ESB FTTH customers might come online in 2015, it still won't be available to most people. It will be 2018 until the rollout is complete to the first 500,000 customers.

And even then, people are generally slow to change services due to pure inertia. I think Eircom will sell VDSL as a "good enough" cheaper alternative to FTTH for the foreseeable future.

I think we might see Eircom start to roll it out slowly in about 3 years from now. I expect it will be a more expensive service then VDSL, but that depends on how the ESB and UPC price their products and how much pressure Eircom come under.

I've heard that Eircom widened and speed up the rollout of VDSL due to the upcoming competition from the ESB's network.

It just goes to show that real competition is good for us all.

Azhrei

Well said, BK. Competition is no bad thing, but more so when it comes to Eircom

boardzz

zerks wrote: »

?????

€32 pm for unlimited Fibre atm. with Vodafone.

Vodafone at home together with Vodafone Red is about 90 euro.

Half the people on here just post without reading the other threads. Try stay on the same page.

Impetus

There are at the very least two strategic mistakes here:

1) There is no competitive choice of carrier/service provider over the largely state provided fibre infrastructure, which is illegal under EU law - you ejits have to use Vodafone. Zero competition = high prices for this service or you boy thumb a lift on the highway. Fibre can carry dozens of competitors to the remotest point in the country.

2) Vodafone is a British company, subject to British / DCHQ /NSA snooping regulations (whether Vodafone wishes to participate or not), much of which does not comply with EU data privacy legislation.

3) Not to mention bundleization – if you have a vodafone mobile and Vodafone other services are available at 20% of normal price, or whatever they decide. How do their competitors survive?

How dumb can Ireland get? The state invests billions in a fibre backbone (via ESB assets) and gives it to only one provider exclusively, especially one based in “the five eyes” NSA land. Has the Minister responsible ever heard of Edward Snowden, or honest government or competition, or what planet does he live on?

The government has allowed eircom to go down the tubes, multiple times. And now the new infrastructure is about to be controlled by people who seem to want to engage in war with much of the world (ie “brown” people) and monitor the so called free speech of “white” people. No thank you.

It would be difficult to conceive of a more anti Irish, anti-developing world anti oil producing world… "game". What favours have the representatives who work for gov.ie received for this “concession” please?

Manc Red

So what are the next steps for ESB and Vodafone? I.e. what kind of infrastructure do they need to install?

If I ordered it today, what would they need to do? Would they install a fibre wire and if so, do they need to dig up the ground? How is the fibre wire brought into the house?

Does the service require cabinets?

Is the service limited by distance? (I know fibre isn't but how far out of the towns will they be able to install it?)

Will all houses in the mentioned areas be able to receive the service?

murphaph

Impetus wrote: »

There are at the very least two strategic mistakes here:

1) There is no competitive choice of carrier/service provider over the largely state provided fibre infrastructure, which is illegal under EU law - you ejits have to use Vodafone. Zero competition = high prices for this service or you boy thumb a lift on the highway. Fibre can carry dozens of competitors to the remotest point in the country.

2) Vodafone is a British company, subject to British / DCHQ /NSA snooping regulations (whether Vodafone wishes to participate or not), much of which does not comply with EU data privacy legislation.

3) Not to mention bundleization – if you have a vodafone mobile and Vodafone other services are available at 20% of normal price, or whatever they decide. How do their competitors survive?

How dumb can Ireland get? The state invests billions in a fibre backbone (via ESB assets) and gives it to only one provider exclusively, especially one based in “the five eyes” NSA land. Has the Minister responsible ever heard of Edward Snowden, or honest government or competition, or what planet does he live on?

The government has allowed eircom to go down the tubes, multiple times. And now the new infrastructure is about to be controlled by people who seem to want to engage in war with much of the world (ie “brown” people) and monitor the so called free speech of “white” people. No thank you.

It would be difficult to conceive of a more anti Irish, anti-developing world anti oil producing world… "game". What favours have the representatives who work for gov.ie received for this “concession” please?

Jesus man read the thread a bit before going off on one. The JV network will be owned & managed by the JV (ESB + Vodafone) BUT will be open to other operators at wholesale rates in the SAME WAY that Eircom's network is open to other operators already (bitstream renting).

If you think only the likes of Vodafone have government snooping boxes on their premises then think again. Anyway, when you use the internet your data doesn't stay on your ISP's network!! Really if you are worried about governments listening in on your online activity then you may as well just stop using the net. Your choice of ISP is almost irrelevant! In fairness to Vodafone they have been the most forthright in telling us all what things are like inside these networks.

ED E

Manc Red wrote: »

So what are the next steps for ESB and Vodafone? I.e. what kind of infrastructure do they need to install?

If I ordered it today, what would they need to do? Would they install a fibre wire and if so, do they need to dig up the ground? How is the fibre wire brought into the house?

Does the service require cabinets?

Is the service limited by distance? (I know fibre isn't but how far out of the towns will they be able to install it?)

Will all houses in the mentioned areas be able to receive the service?

I dont think theyve published the physical topology yet.


Right now the ESB has fibre to most of its distribution points, at least the big ones. So a town could have a 38kV substation(I think thats the norm with the smaller ones being 10kV) where the existing terminations are. They then need to bring this out to distribution points in the last mile and run drops to homes. This probably means wrapping fibre on existing lower voltage lines(like the ones running between street lights) and breaking off frequencies at points along these runs. These points would then feed down to the ONT in the house, which connects to your modem. Done. Whether they'll run that along existing mains feeds to the eave of a house, where they are above ground, or just run all in underground subducting I dont know.

Whatever the case is, the ESB will have a plan, but it will involve work. Just like an area newly getting UPC there will be contractors coming in digging, laying and fitting lines. It wont be the 2hr eFibre upgrade. But the effort will be worth it.

Impetus

Manc Red wrote: »

So what are the next steps for ESB and Vodafone? I.e. what kind of infrastructure do they need to install?

If I ordered it today, what would they need to do? Would they install a fibre wire and if so, do they need to dig up the ground? How is the fibre wire brought into the house?

Does the service require cabinets?

Is the service limited by distance? (I know fibre isn't but how far out of the towns will they be able to install it?)

Will all houses in the mentioned areas be able to receive the service?

Surely all the basics of wrapping fibre around ESB lines etc are irrelevant at this point. The big issue is which providers have access to them...... if 7 providers (eg eircom, ups, voldafone, three, .... to 7 can deliver service to your house over this ESB provided route, where you have the option of deciding on who will provide the service at what price, surely this is the issue for the customer - even if you live on Carrauntoohil (1038m). Every building in the Pyrenees in Andorra has fibre access at over twice the altitude and remoteness (2000 m +).

murphaph

Yup. No avoiding a lot of digging but well worth the disruption. Fibre will allow well beyond 1Gbps into the future without any need to replace the actual cables into the home. It's truly remarkable that Ireland is pushing ahead with this stuff.

Impetus

murphaph wrote: »

Jesus man read the thread a bit before going off on one. The JV network will be owned & managed by the JV (ESB + Vodafone) BUT will be open to other operators at wholesale rates in the SAME WAY that Eircom's network is open to other operators already (bitstream renting).

If you think only the likes of Vodafone have government snooping boxes on their premises then think again. Anyway, when you use the internet your data doesn't stay on your ISP's network!! Really if you are worried about governments listening in on your online activity then you may as well just stop using the net. Your choice of ISP is almost irrelevant! In fairness to Vodafone they have been the most forthright in telling us all what things are like inside these networks.

I am not too worried about gov.ie if they ever wanted to snoop on my internet traffic. Ireland has a constitution and I am a law abiding citizen etc. Vodafone is based in a country where there is no constitution and their laws and practices are in bed with American (post 9/11) laws that permit mass surveillance. At the expense (two fingers) of EU regulations on data privacy etc. EHCR rights etc.

In my view Vodafone is an unfit person to be involved in this exercise because of where the company is headquartered and the routes it takes for communications links, and its obligations under foreign "laws", regulations and handshakes to stream copies of traffic to monitoring points such as ECHQ. Which is basically censorship combined with risk of detainment and worse if one travels to GB, US, CA, NZ, AU. Which is a massive restraint of free speech. Period.

Can Ireland not have a broadband network that is not censored/snooped on from its point of origin, except in the case of criminal events proscribed under Irish law?.... ie a network which does not involve companies with direct relationships with Irish customers unless they (the customers) wish (ie I am thinking of entities based in GB, US, CA, AU and NZ who seem to be in a network designed to sniff and snoop against people in countries in the EU (aside from GB), Asia, Africa, Latin America etc?

murphaph

The constitution is just a bit of paper. The US has one too.

Impetus

murphaph wrote: »

The constitution is just a bit of paper. The US has one too.

Vodafone is not a US company. I know of no other country in "the West" where constitutional rights are ignored, or do not exist at all - aside from USA and GB, je regrette de d'ire.

MajesticDonkey

Impetus wrote: »

Vodafone is not a US company. I know of no other country in "the West" where constitutional rights are ignored, or do not exist at all - aside from USA and GB, je regrette de d'ire.

And tell me, what happens when packets leave your computer and travel to a server in the US, or do you just visit sites hosted in Ireland?

Mr. G

Impetus wrote: »

There are at the very least two strategic mistakes here:

1) There is no competitive choice of carrier/service provider over the largely state provided fibre infrastructure, which is illegal under EU law - you ejits have to use Vodafone. Zero competition = high prices for this service or you boy thumb a lift on the highway. Fibre can carry dozens of competitors to the remotest point in the country.

2) Vodafone is a British company, subject to British / DCHQ /NSA snooping regulations (whether Vodafone wishes to participate or not), much of which does not comply with EU data privacy legislation.

3) Not to mention bundleization – if you have a vodafone mobile and Vodafone other services are available at 20% of normal price, or whatever they decide. How do their competitors survive?

How dumb can Ireland get? The state invests billions in a fibre backbone (via ESB assets) and gives it to only one provider exclusively, especially one based in “the five eyes” NSA land. Has the Minister responsible ever heard of Edward Snowden, or honest government or competition, or what planet does he live on?

The government has allowed eircom to go down the tubes, multiple times. And now the new infrastructure is about to be controlled by people who seem to want to engage in war with much of the world (ie “brown” people) and monitor the so called free speech of “white” people. No thank you.

It would be difficult to conceive of a more anti Irish, anti-developing world anti oil producing world… "game". What favours have the representatives who work for gov.ie received for this “concession” please?

Look at the main providers in the country:
UPC - Owned by Liberty Global (UK HQ)
O2 - Hutchison Whampoa (Hong Kong)
Meteor, eMobile, Eircom - Australian firm I think
Tesco Mobile - UK

Most of the above are foreign owned. Technically speaking, since Australia are an ally to the US, the NSA could force Eircom to do wire taps. That goes for broadband connections too. Even looking at SSL encryption, SHA-2 was ironically designed by the NSA and is very commonly used on encrypted websites across the world, banks etc.

I think it's irrelevant to be honest. If they want to get access to information they will find a way.

I agree that the Govt need to tighten laws on how wire taps are allowed.

Who else could do FTTH more effectively than Vodafone and ESB Networks? I can't think of any.

Mr. G

Impetus wrote: »

Vodafone is not a US company. I know of no other country in "the West" where constitutional rights are ignored, or do not exist at all - aside from USA and GB, je regrette de d'ire.

They are a UK company. The UK is just as bad (also have ties with the NSA)

Impetus

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

And tell me, what happens when packets leave your computer and travel to a server in the US, or do you just visit sites hosted in Ireland?

If I have a law abiding, privacy aware ISP in Ireland and I visit a site in saxonland they won't know who I am aside from my randomly assigned IP number, aside from my ISO 3166 (country code). Because my EU data privacy abiding ISP will not be feedng them with my details to populate thier database in Bluffdale, UT*, or elsewhere.

I wouldn't have a problem with the mass of the US population knowing which sites I visit etc...... most of them are normal honest people..... my problem is with the fraudsters who purport to "run" the country... Ditto elsewhere in anglsaxonland.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

jca

Mr. G wrote: »

Look at the main providers in the country:
UPC - Owned by Liberty Global (UK HQ)
O2 - Hutchison Whampoa (Hong Kong)
Meteor, eMobile, Eircom - Australian firm I think
Tesco Mobile - UK

Most of the above are foreign owned. Technically speaking, since Australia are an ally to the US, the NSA could force Eircom to do wire taps. That goes for broadband connections too. Even looking at SSL encryption, SHA-2 was ironically designed by the NSA and is very commonly used on encrypted websites across the world, banks etc.

I think it's irrelevant to be honest. If they want to get access to information they will find a way.

I agree that the Govt need to tighten laws on how wire taps are allowed.


Who else could do FTTH more effectively than Vodafone and ESB Networks? I can't think of any.

Who else could do FTTH more effectively than Vodafone and ESB Networks? I can't think of any I think Eircom could give it a bash now.

ED E

The vast majority of traffic leaving ireland routes via London and can be tapped by GCHQ just like the NSA have done in the US. Practically nothing the Irish use is hosted here, most is france or germany where power is cheaper.

This argument is way OT and very tin foil hat.

Impetus

Mr. G wrote: »

Look at the main providers in the country:
UPC - Owned by Liberty Global (UK HQ)
O2 - Hutchison Whampoa (Hong Kong)
Meteor, eMobile, Eircom - Australian firm I think
Tesco Mobile - UK

Most of the above are foreign owned. Technically speaking, since Australia are an ally to the US, the NSA could force Eircom to do wire taps. That goes for broadband connections too. Even looking at SSL encryption, SHA-2 was ironically designed by the NSA and is very commonly used on encrypted websites across the world, banks etc.

I think it's irrelevant to be honest. If they want to get access to information they will find a way.

I agree that the Govt need to tighten laws on how wire taps are allowed.

Who else could do FTTH more effectively than Vodafone and ESB Networks? I can't think of any.

UPC "Liberty" is a US company (John Malone) - who is building a wall to wall monopoly buying up cable operators in Europe....

While Three (who is taking over 02 is Chinese) they are still heavily plugged into the BT network. O2 was owned by BT, then Telefonica (Spain was involved in the war against Iraq etc) . Three outsourced their Irish network to BT. So the entire Three Ireland plan is contaminated.

Tesco has no network - they are virtual - but that doesn't stop them feeding C7 stuff (your minute by minute movements and calls to) DCHQ.

Eircom was controlled by a Singapore company of late, who seem to be trying to "IPO" or re-IPO it again.

If FTTH becomes open, there is no reason why a zillion movie channels, ISPs, phone services etc would not want to use the platform. Video on demand, live streaming, etc. Home security / monitoring. Fire alarms, Google and Netflix and others would want to plug directly into it - which would mean youtube and Netflix 4K TV now. The options are endless if the platform is open. Just like the internet - anyone who wishes to set up a website can do it in a few mins. This gives rise to lots of spam, but lots of useful stuff too. More work for search engines to separate the wheat from the chaff etc...

fergus1001

Impetus wrote: »

UPC "Liberty" is a US company (John Malone) - who is building a wall to wall monopoly buying up cable operators in Europe....

While Three (who is taking over 02 is Chinese) they are still heavily plugged into the BT network. O2 was owned by BT, then Telefonica (Spain was involved in the war against Iraq etc) . Three outsourced their Irish network to BT. So the entire Three Ireland plan is contaminated.

Tesco has no network - they are virtual - but that doesn't stop them feeding C7 stuff (your minute by minute movements and calls to) DCHQ.

Eircom was controlled by a Singapore company of late, who seem to be trying to "IPO" or re-IPO it again.

If FTTH becomes open, there is no reason why a zillion movie channels, ISPs, phone services etc would not want to use the platform. Video on demand, live streaming, etc. Home security / monitoring. Fire alarms, Google and Netflix and others would want to plug directly into it - which would mean youtube and Netflix 4K TV now. The options are endless if the platform is open. Just like the internet - anyone who wishes to set up a website can do it in a few mins. This gives rise to lots of spam, but lots of useful stuff too. More work for search engines to separate the wheat from the chaff etc...

Where has this thread gone too ??? Why are we all wearing tin foil hats all of a sudden

Manc Red

ED E wrote: »

I dont think theyve published the physical topology yet.


Right now the ESB has fibre to most of its distribution points, at least the big ones. So a town could have a 38kV substation(I think thats the norm with the smaller ones being 10kV) where the existing terminations are. They then need to bring this out to distribution points in the last mile and run drops to homes. This probably means wrapping fibre on existing lower voltage lines(like the ones running between street lights) and breaking off frequencies at points along these runs. These points would then feed down to the ONT in the house, which connects to your modem. Done. Whether they'll run that along existing mains feeds to the eave of a house, where they are above ground, or just run all in underground subducting I dont know.

Whatever the case is, the ESB will have a plan, but it will involve work. Just like an area newly getting UPC there will be contractors coming in digging, laying and fitting lines. It wont be the 2hr eFibre upgrade. But the effort will be worth it.

So they will have to lay fibre cables (like eircom) along main roads or is this already in place?

Our house is located roughly 180 meters off the main road. Would their be much digging needed to be done in that situation or is the fibre cable run along the electric lines to the property?

Any diagrams that better explain it than this?:

http://yamasakiot.com/files/file/ftth/ftthsolution.jpg

fergus1001

This is what what the esb have at the moment in terms of fibre there are town that already have cabling laid and are called MAN's the esb fibre generally follow the motorways

http://www.irelandoffline.org/newmap/#/fibre

You can see where the mans are in the towns on that link

MajesticDonkey

The red dots are the planned fibre towns?

garroff

NO.....the red dots are towns near the existing ESB fibre on overhead lines. I can see the fibre from my back door but I will not be able to get BB because the listed town is 35 miles away.
ESB/Vodafone is not for supplying RURAL fibre.

Azhrei

Not sure about that, since Cobh is on the list of planned towns yet the red dot is somewhere up in the city. They're probably the supply stations where they will be laying fibre from to the planned towns.

bk

MOD: Impetus, no more off topic discussion about foreign companies and spying, etc.

garroff

Have a look at that map again. Dungarvan Co Waterford has a red dot....110KV line passes outside Dungarvan....but Dungarvan is not on list. Red dots are probably ESB transmission stations that have fibre.

irishgeo

the maps here showing transmissions lines might be a better starting point.

http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/about-us/our_networks/

hallo dare

Yeah, the fibre seems to be running on the 110Kv lines

PeadarB

I currently receive 100/20 e-fibre from eircom so what implications does this new scenario present for me. It will jump me and initially a potential 500,000 premises into a new age of connectivity.

I remember back in 1985 when I built my first home being annoyed that I had to pay the ESB so many hundred of pounds to connect my house to the network. Several new poles were required to string the cable to "my poll" from the nearest transformer. A large (1 or 1 1/2 inch) diameter heavy duty black pipe was taken down that pole and routed 30 meters underground, at my expense I might add, to my white box at the side of the house. I was living 5 km from the centre of Letterkenny at the time.

Electric Ireland Networks connect to every home and business in the country, using the various power providers, on their own infrastructure. They already have the backhaul in place on their 1,300km figure of eight fibre optic network to main population centres. In Letterkenny it terminates at Lurgybrack, 3 or 4km from the town and has remained dark for years. It will not be too onerous a task to run their fibre cabling to every premises in the town and to outlying areas using the existing distribution system. The fibre can for the most part be strung on existing poles to terminate where the power line runs down that fat pipe into each premises.

Compared to building a new fibre network the costs should be moderate as the infrastructure is practically in place. A project of this magnitude requires capital investment. A return on this investment can only take place over time. €450 million is small change to both these companies, who with a little bit of foresight(mostly the ESB's) have now the potential to flood the country with a world beating new age comms system. This still requires EU approval and if eircom whinge as much as their opposition did to ComReg in the run-up to the e-fibre roll-out we could be in for a good wait. Though Electric Ireland Networks, as a semi-state company are in a strong position to ride out any opposition.

No contention, no concerns about SNR or crosstalk or latency, no concerns about distance to the cabinet.

Let the fun begin...