SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

pm.

AlanS181824 wrote: »

D'oh!

It was this thread....:o

What is the latest update ? when can we expect to see the first rollout and what towns are first ?

dbit

pm. wrote: »

What is the latest update ? when can we expect to see the first rollout and what towns are first ?

2-3 estates in cavan are up and running , I have seen clonmel rolling it out i dont know of any other areas with active rollout visible to the common man ???

amdaley28

I was talking to a retired Eircom engineer recently & he seems to think it will never be a big thing because of the cost.
I don't know the technicalities of the system but he said the equipment needed will make the project cost prohibitive & he doesn't expect it to take off in any major way.

ED E

Its inevitible. Fibre will replace copper, only question is if it happens in 2016 or 2026.

dbit

amdaley28 wrote: »

I was talking to a retired Eircom engineer recently & he seems to think it will never be a big thing because of the cost.
I don't know the technicalities of the system but he said the equipment needed will make the project cost prohibitive & he doesn't expect it to take off in any major way.

First problem here is that he's Ex-eircom, These older retired fuddy duddies have no clue of whats actually happening. How he could state that as fact is laughable. The way forward is to innovate, upgrade and improve this is a given for any industry to stay in the game . Ed and various others have pointed out the costs implications in this project and Vodafone and ESB have the muster to pull this off , problem is Eircom does not ( Or its investor base has to be kept happy so as not to overspend and dip too far into yearly profits) . the costs factor is prevalent for Eircom but not for the likes of our national power provider who net far more money each year than eircom even as stand alone entities.

jca

dbit wrote: »

First problem here is that he's Ex-eircom, These older retired fuddy duddies have no clue of whats actually happening. How he could state that as fact is laughable. The way forward is to innovate, upgrade and improve this is a given for any industry to stay in the game . Ed and various others have pointed out the costs implications in this project and Vodafone and ESB have the muster to pull this off , problem is Eircom does not ( Or its investor base has to be kept happy so as not to overspend and dip to far into yearly profits) . the costs factor is prevelant for Eircom but not for the likes of our national power provider who net far more money each year than eircom even as stand alone entities.

I wouldn't be too hasty in branding these retired guys as old. Some of those fcukers got out before their 50th birthday with a nice lump sum and a gilt edged pension to look forward to as well... I agree with you that Vodafone/ESB have it well costed and it will happen.

amdaley28

dbit wrote: »

First problem here is that he's Ex-eircom, These older retired fuddy duddies have no clue of whats actually happening. How he could state that as fact is laughable. The way forward is to innovate, upgrade and improve this is a given for any industry to stay in the game . Ed and various others have pointed out the costs implications in this project and Vodafone and ESB have the muster to pull this off , problem is Eircom does not ( Or its investor base has to be kept happy so as not to overspend and dip to far into yearly profits) . the costs factor is prevelant for Eircom but not for the likes of our national power provider who net far more money each year than eircom even as stand alone entities.

I said he was retired, I didn't say he was old and being retired early doesn't all of a sudden turn you into something useless.
He's a telecoms engineer so I presume he has some idea of what's going on in the industry.
In any case I'd be more inclined to believe a telecoms engineer that someone on a forum even having the greatest respect for people on forums some of who are extremely knowledgeable.
Incidentally who he worked for should have nothing to do with it. His company might be s***e but that doesn't mean he is as well.

Hackery

I did here that ESB initially tried to team up with a different operator but they felt it was too expensive to insulate the fibre from the electricity cables and pulled out. Seems VF were prepared to throw more money at it. Pricing will be key. eircom have alot more fibre in the ground in the access network close to peoples homes meaning that they might be able to do it cheaper.

Hackery

I did hear that ESB initially tried to team up with a different operator but they felt it was too expensive to insulate the fibre from the electricity cables and pulled out. Seems VF were prepared to throw more money at it. Pricing will be key. eircom have alot more fibre in the ground in the access network close to peoples homes meaning that they might be able to do it cheaper.

Nollog

dbit wrote: »

2-3 estates in cavan are up and running , I have seen clonmel rolling it out i dont know of any other areas with active rollout visible to the common man ???

I live in Cobh, the most I've seen with the poles has been a few hanging wires on the hill up from the train station.
I'd gladly be on the look out if I knew what to look for :pac:

edit: by wires I mean electricity wires.

dbit

amdaley28 wrote: »

I said he was retired, I didn't say he was old and being retired early doesn't all of a sudden turn you into something useless.
He's a telecoms engineer so I presume he has some idea of what's going on in the industry.
In any case I'd be more inclined to believe a telecoms engineer that someone on a forum even having the greatest respect for people on forums some of who are extremely knowledgeable.
Incidentally who he worked for should have nothing to do with it. His company might be s***e but that doesn't mean he is as well.

His opinion ( The eircom engineer) would be one he has inherited from the business model he's used to , how can he say that VF and ESB wont be able to keep up due to costs , pure rubbish.

dbit

/\/ollog wrote: »

I live in Cobh, the most I've seen with the poles has been a few hanging wires on the hill up from the train station.
I'd gladly be on the look out if I knew what to look for :pac:

edit: by wires I mean electricity wires.

All i spotted was the catherine-wheel looking shaped device on poles where the fiber is coiled up to allow drop to ground and perfrom splices on the line.

dbit

Hackery wrote: »

I did here that ESB initially tried to team up with a different operator but they felt it was too expensive to insulate the fibre from the electricity cables and pulled out. Seems VF were prepared to throw more money at it. Pricing will be key. eircom have alot more fibre in the ground in the access network close to peoples homes meaning that they might be able to do it cheaper.

The cable solution is delivered insulated , its the working around the power lines that may prove iffy. The lines are hung on LV and MV poles about two or three feet down from the lekky lines.

bk

Well the cost for the ESB are very different then they would be for Eircom.

Eircom has a massive debt hanging over it, that requires financing and paying off and it also has the old copper network which needs to be continued to be maintained and the investment in it (AADSL, VDSL, etc.) paid off.

That all makes FTTH an extra cost, on top of their already existing cost base.

The ESB/Vodafone on the other hand are completely debt free, profitable and in fact have a large amount of money in the bank looking for investment. They also have no old network to worry about or maintain.

I've heard and seen that it should cost about €1000 per urban install. Sounds like a lot, but now look at it over 10 years, that is just €8.30 per month. Lets make it €12 including interest payments, etc. That is half of Eircoms line rental!

Add €30 on top of that for ongoing maintenance, international backhaul, profit etc. And €40 to €50 per month looks easily doable.

Then optionally sell TV services on top of that.

It all looks very doable for a new, cash rich, infrastructure rich entrant like ESB/Vodafone.

dbit

bk wrote: »

Well the cost for the ESB are very different then they would be for Eircom.

Eircom has a massive debt hanging over it, that requires financing and paying off and it also has the old copper network which needs to be continued to be maintained and the investment in it (AADSL, VDSL, etc.) paid off.

That all makes FTTH an extra cost, on top of their already existing cost base.

The ESB/Vodafone on the other hand are completely debt free, profitable and in fact have a large amount of money in the bank looking for investment. They also have no old network to worry about or maintain.

I've heard and seen that it should cost about €1000 per urban install. Sounds like a lot, but now look at it over 10 years, that is just €8.30 per month. Lets make it €12 including interest payments, etc. That is half of Eircoms line rental!

Add €30 on top of that for ongoing maintenance, international backhaul, profit etc. And €40 to €50 per month looks easily doable.

Then optionally sell TV services on top of that.

It all looks very doable for a new, cash rich, infrastructure rich entrant like ESB/Vodafone.

As well as Ed-E and yourself BK where the people I was on about above discussing cost impacts and so on . Thanks .

dbit

amdaley28 wrote: »

I said he was retired, I didn't say he was old and being retired early doesn't all of a sudden turn you into something useless.
He's a telecoms engineer so I presume he has some idea of what's going on in the industry.
In any case I'd be more inclined to believe a telecoms engineer that someone on a forum even having the greatest respect for people on forums some of who are extremely knowledgeable.
Incidentally who he worked for should have nothing to do with it. His company might be s***e but that doesn't mean he is as well.

He is speaking about a company he knows nothing about or should i say a pair of companies , Eircom management would be what he is used to hearing and if listened closely I would say he was possibly focusing his topic on Eircom FTTH and not ESB Voda . He has no insight to make such a statement . Using the term Fuddy duddie ill agree was a little excessive , for that i am sorry . But to hear any eircom Engineer pass remark on other operators makes me laugh when they cannot even tell whats going on with theyre own company in terms of time frames or delivery . Yes its obvious i hate Eircom but they have done this to me and every other person here . Wait and see the mass exodus occur once ESB and VF get up and running. You will see more and more "Early retirements".

Azhrei

Has someone been burned by Eircom before?

I think I read somewhere here that the ESB is working with KN Networks to install the fibre. There were two KN vans down here in Cobh earlier and I asked them if they were working on anything with the ESB - sadly not

I don't like to think of how long we're going to have to wait, but at least we know it's coming.

bk

Just to add, the ESB wouldn't be the first electricity company to roll out FTTH.

Most of the widespread FTTH deployed in the Nordic countries over the past 10 years was done so by local electricity companies. For the most part it seems to have been pretty straightforward for them and highly successful (all profitable AFAIK).

The cost of fiber gear has dropped significantly in the past 10 years and the labour costs in the nordic countries is just as high if not significantly higher (specially Norway) then Ireland.

Also the density of nordic cities and towns is very similar to Irelands. *

So I don't see any reason why it would be any harder for the ESB here.

* Please note I'm talking about the ESB/Vodafone roll out of FTTH in urban areas, not rural broadband which would be part of the National Broadband Plan. All my figure in this and the last post are based on urban FTTH rollout. Rural is a whole different kettle of fish!

skydish79

Company working on behalf of esb are digging up parts of streets in ardee County Louth,

Broadband seems to be coming, no idea what dates

ardmacha

skydish79 wrote: »

Company working on behalf of esb are digging up parts of streets in ardee County Louth,

Ardee is not a very deserving case, as it is already on a fibre route or two.
I hope they bury their ugly cables as well, it is town disfigured by wires.

charlie_says

Is there an official roll out schedule available?

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

it is town disfigured by wires.

Sadly a common problem in Ireland. Most people don't seem to notice how untidy it looks.

ctlsleh

dbit wrote: »

He is speaking about a company he knows nothing about or should i say a pair of companies , Eircom management would be what he is used to hearing and if listened closely I would say he was possibly focusing his topic on Eircom FTTH and not ESB Voda . He has no insight to make such a statement . Using the term Fuddy duddie ill agree was a little excessive , for that i am sorry . But to hear any eircom Engineer pass remark on other operators makes me laugh when they cannot even tell whats going on with theyre own company in terms of time frames or delivery . Yes its obvious i hate Eircom but they have done this to me and every other person here . Wait and see the mass exodus occur once ESB and VF get up and running. You will see more and more "Early retirements".

It should be noted that the Esb/VF network will be an open access network just like Eircoms VDSL/ADSL network is today, so there's no reason why Eircom can't just be a retail providor on the ESB/VF network, just like VF and Sky are on Eircoms network today.........

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ctlsleh

yuloni wrote: »

eircom didn't seem content with such an arrangement however despite them reigning it out to others for years. They complained, if I'm not mistaken, that eircom should have access to the physical ESB infrastructure (ducts, poles, cabs, etc...) so as, I can only assume, they could mount their own network!

Lately, they made mumbles about how they might open up their own physical network to competitors. That's certainly a marked change!


p.s. the fact eircom (retail) and eircom (networks/wholesale) share the eircom name is slowly getting to me!

Don't think that ESB/VF network will unbundle the Fiber infra, that would completely blow the biz case, because at the end of the day the company that connects your home with Fiber first, will be the market winner.......there is no business case to be second to market in fiber.......and even if Eircom did local loop unbundling, can't see anyone buying into that if Fiber is coming......it could be that Eircom would do take that position to force the regulator to consider pushing ESB/VF network down that route also........issue will be here that if that's going to be seriously reviewed, then it will significantly hold up the ESB/VF deployment plans.......actually it's impossible to do open loop unbundling with GPON as the Fiber is split up to 64 times between the OLT(exchange) and the home....

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ctlsleh

yuloni wrote: »

Lets hope not. I think I said it before but I look forward to the day when Ireland has a one national fibre network and owned at least by a semi-state too. eircom et al shall proceed to become equal resellers on said network and the disbanding of the aged copper network can begin if they see it better to provide over resold fibre. There would be the issue of the USO provisioning or likely handover if such happened I imagine (which eircom are complaining about also)

Couldn't agree more......the sooner this happens the better.....both for the subscriber and for the economy at large!

murphaph

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Eircom knows copper's days are numbered. Even their submission for the NBP recognises that pretty clearly.

Given that, you would expect them to consider how best to replace their copper with fibre. Their urban physical network of ducts would be on a par with ESB but in urban areas with overhead supply and in rural areas the ESB's infrastructure is in much better shape. That is self evident. You wouldn't for a moment consider stringing fibre along many of the barely hanging telephone cables around the country.

So, Eircom probably would happily open its ducts up to all and sundry IF they got access to the ESB's overhead network.

Personally I think this sort of competing physical fibre is a nonsense similar to competing subways systems in London and New York that have resulted in weird connections to this day. The fibre itself should be laid or strung once to each premises and centrally managed, but I don't think this will happen and competing physical fibre networks is not really a bad complaint to have. The fact companies want to compete to lay fibre at all is hugely positive.

ukoda

murphaph wrote: »

I think Eircom knows copper's days are numbered. Even their submission for the NBP recognises that pretty clearly.

Given that, you would expect them to consider how best to replace their copper with fibre. Their urban physical network of ducts would be on a par with ESB but in urban areas with overhead supply and in rural areas the ESB's infrastructure is in much better shape. That is self evident. You wouldn't for a moment consider stringing fibre along many of the barely hanging telephone cables around the country.

So, Eircom probably would happily open its ducts up to all and sundry IF they got access to the ESB's overhead network.

Personally I think this sort of competing physical fibre is a nonsense similar to competing subways systems in London and New York that have resulted in weird connections to this day. The fibre itself should be laid or strung once to each premises and centrally managed, but I don't think this will happen and competing physical fibre networks is not really a bad complaint to have. The fact companies want to compete to lay fibre at all is hugely positive.

I would agree with you here, laying 2 sets of fibre cables to premises is a complete waste of investment, it should be one cable which is open to wholesale, but like you say, each company will want their own network to be able to control it.

It should be done the way the Electricity network is done, its one company who owns and maintains the Network (ESB Networks) but all suppliers can retail electricity via this network (Electric Ireland, Airtricity, Bord Gais etc)

Hackery

ukoda wrote: »

I would agree with you here, laying 2 sets of fibre cables to premises is a complete waste of investment, it should be one cable which is open to wholesale, but like you say, each company will want their own network to be able to control it.

It should be done the way the Electricity network is done, its one company who owns and maintains the Network (ESB Networks) but all suppliers can retail electricity via this network (Electric Ireland, Airtricity, Bord Gais etc)

Eircom's fibre in the access network is completely regulated and open to other Operators to use via interconnects at eircom exchanges. That exists today and will continue as FTTH is rolled out. Anywhere eircom goes with fibre every other operator will be. Not clear yet how esb/Vodafone will handle this in a non regulated space.