SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

bk

I have to disagree, I believe the ideal situation in Urban areas would be to have two physical fiber networks.

Both networks should be fully open to other companies to use as resellers. The resellers could then switch between the two physical networks based on the best deal. This would maximise competition and keep the infrastructure companies honest. We don't want to go back to the bad old days of a single company having a monopoly.

And since these companies seem to be willing to make this investment in urban areas, I don't see why anyone would want to stop them.

I absolutely agree when it comes to rural Ireland that there probably is only enough money there for one fiber network, which will also hopefully be open to all other resellers.

I fell the same way about mobile phone networks. I think the ideal would be two physical networks in urban areas, both of which are open to MVNO (resellers). With rural Ireland having only one physical mobile network, but with requirements for very wide coverage and also being open to all resellers.

bk

Hackery wrote: »

Eircom's fibre in the access network is completely regulated and open to other Operators to use via interconnects at eircom exchanges. That exists today and will continue as FTTH is rolled out. Anywhere eircom goes with fibre every other operator will be. Not clear yet how esb/Vodafone will handle this in a non regulated space.

True, however it should be pointed out that Eircoms rates for accessing their Fiber are very high.

It is often cheaper for companies to build their own fiber networks! For instance, that is why UPC have their own fiber network, just using the ESB and MANS for national backhaul. I don't think they use much if any Eircom fiber.

BT Ireland also has an extensive fiber network that is often used by many Eircom resellers (Sky, Vodafone) in place of the more expensive Eircom fiber.

ukoda

bk wrote: »

I have to disagree, I believe the ideal situation in Urban areas would be to have two physical fiber networks.

Both networks should be fully open to other companies to use as resellers. The resellers could then switch between the two physical networks based on the best deal. This would maximise competition and keep the infrastructure companies honest. We don't want to go back to the bad old days of a single company having a monopoly.

And since these companies seem to be willing to make this investment in urban areas, I don't see why anyone would want to stop them.

I absolutely agree when it comes to rural Ireland that there probably is only enough money there for one fiber network, which will also hopefully be open to all other resellers.

I fell the same way about mobile phone networks. I think the ideal would be two physical networks in urban areas, both of which are open to MVNO (resellers). With rural Ireland having only one physical mobile network, but with requirements for very wide coverage and also being open to all resellers.

I would say one is enough and network costs should be regulated - the way ESB Networks are, they present their costs to service and invest in the network to the CER and they approve either an increase or decrease in regulated charges that the ESB Networks can charge suppliers. seems to work well (you don't hear airtricty looking to string their own electricity cables and why would they when a comprehensive network already exists), i really think its a waste of infrastructure to duplicate the physical network

bk

ukoda wrote: »

I would say one is enough and network costs should be regulated - the way ESB Networks are, they present their costs to service and invest in the network to the CER and they approve either an increase or decrease in regulated charges that the ESB Networks can charge suppliers.

That is what Eircom does with Comreg regulating them and we end up with the highest line rental in Europe!!!!

We also have some of the most expensive electricity in Europe.

So no, regulators setting prices in Ireland doesn't lead to good value for money.

Just look at the vicious competition in the mobile industry and the quickly dropping prices over the last few years. We wouldn't have had anything like that if prices were regulated.

And Eircom certainly wouldn't have bothered rolling out 100mb/s VDSL and at such a cheap rate if it wasn't for UPC investing in it's own network, bringing us 240mb/s broadband and stealing so many of Eircoms customers.

No I'm sorry, regulation of open and fair access to the networks seems to work, but regulation of prices doesn't work at all.

Hackery

bk wrote: »

True, however it should be pointed out that Eircoms rates for accessing their Fiber are very high.

It is often cheaper for companies to build their own fiber networks! For instance, that is why UPC have their own fiber network, just using the ESB and MANS for national backhaul. I don't think they use much if any Eircom fiber.

BT Ireland also has an extensive fiber network that is often used by many Eircom resellers (Sky, Vodafone) in place of the more expensive Eircom fiber.

I was referring to the access network and not the core network. I am finding it hard to calculate those charges from price lists on their website. However, Eircom's rates for FTTH access network are rock bottom - €30 installation charge and €5.98 rental is all an Operator with interconnects in the exchange will pay.

ED E

BK is right, in a single wholesaler system there's no real motivation to keep SLAs and maintain infrastructure, just look at rural eircom copper.

If we had eircom and the esb prividing wholesale fiber then there would be competition in field operation costs and SLAs(which could actually matter). Double investment but a real market. Force then to share poles and ducts, but use their own runs and their own drops to the premises.

godskitchen

Hackery wrote: »

I was referring to the access network and not the core network. I am finding it hard to calculate those charges from price lists on their website. However, Eircom's rates for FTTH access network are rock bottom - €30 installation charge and €5.98 rental is all an Operator with interconnects in the exchange will pay.

Where did you find those prices?

bk

Hackery wrote: »

I was referring to the access network and not the core network.

Even at the access network level, I believe it is better to have two networks and competition at this level.

I'm not suggesting they run fiber right into every home twice. But instead two runs of fiber down every street. And that the fiber is then only run into the persons home when they order it.

I'd envision Eircom, ESB and UPC all running fiber down their own ducts in urban areas. Now they could potentially share the last 50 meters into the persons actual home, that might make sense, but I think it is important to have alternative networks near by, where a second company could optionally run their own drop if the first company starts to charge too much or isn't maintaining it properly.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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I would say Eircom will find it next to impossible to get access to ESB Infastructure, They have no experience of dealing with electricity Infastructure and I can see ESB not granting access on safety grounds etc. being able to retail ESB/voda fibre isn't a bad deal for Eircom at all

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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That's true that they would use those companies. It's probably also true that ESB/voda will actually use KN and Sierra on their fibre (at least for a lot of it as they currently have contracts with them) so you'd end up with the same crews putting up 2 sets of fibres for different companies on the same Infastructure, I take the point BK made about driving competition but it just doesn't sit right with me to have 2 fibre networks on the same infastruture, but maybe it's the only way

Johnboy1951

ukoda wrote: »

That's true that they would use those companies. It's probably also true that ESB/voda will actually use KN and Sierra on their fibre (at least for a lot of it as they currently have contracts with them) so you'd end up with the same crews putting up 2 sets of fibres for different companies on the same Infastructure, I take the point BK made about driving competition but it just doesn't sit right with me to have 2 fibre networks on the same infastruture, but maybe it's the only way

It would be like having two electricity grids spanning the country ..... it would be much better, easier and less costly to fix our regulation regime!

SpaceTime

I'd say for practical reasons, it's going to be wholesale access at most. There's no way you could have multiple companies dealing with 38kV power lines.

If ESB put in enough dark fibre, that may not matter though.

Also a lot of this stuff could be done with micro ducts and subduct and all that stuff. So, it's possible 3rd parties wouldn't ever need physical access to the ESB network anyway.

bk

ukoda wrote: »

That's true that they would use those companies. It's probably also true that ESB/voda will actually use KN and Sierra on their fibre (at least for a lot of it as they currently have contracts with them) so you'd end up with the same crews putting up 2 sets of fibres for different companies on the same Infastructure, I take the point BK made about driving competition but it just doesn't sit right with me to have 2 fibre networks on the same infastruture, but maybe it's the only way

Just to point out, I believe it is ESB crews who are working in conjunction with KN/Sierra for any work that involves being near the electrical network. KN are mostly involved in the last few meters into the home and customer install.

There is no way that the ESB will leave Eircom or KN or Sierra near the electrical network without close supervision for health and safety reasons.

Also I don't believe Eircom will use the ESBs infrastructure for the most part in urban areas, there own duct network should be good enough for that mostly.

It is more rural areas where they might want to use the ESBs network. But in rural areas there will likely be only one network anyway and I assume it will either be ESB or perhaps Eircom will try to do it using the ESB infrastructure!

ukoda

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It would be like having two electricity grids spanning the country ..... it would be much better, easier and less costly to fix our regulation regime!

You think building a whole new electricity network wouldn't be costly?! Who's going to pay for that?

SpaceTime

In many areas, eircom's duct network's probably more extensive than ESB's.

Much more of ESB's network is overhead than eircom's.

Even in rural areas, most of Eircom's network is actually underground other than final drops to houses. Same in urban areas where you see overhead wiring, it's usually just from a pole to a building. The poles are typically fed from underground. It's unusual at this stage to see major eircom wires on poles.

ED E

ukoda wrote: »

You think building a whole new electricity network wouldn't be costly?! Who's going to pay for that?

Read what you quoted.

SpaceTime

I think though people are under-estimating the assets eircom has in place in terms of ducting. They're dragging their feet on fibre because as yet nobody's launched any FTTH products. UPC is probably worrying them with the 240mbit/s at this stage, but they could if they really wanted to do pair bonding with VDSL2 and get up to 200Mbit/s

As the dominant player rather than a market disruptor, eircom's not really ever going to be interested in pushing the boundaries of technology, they'll be interested in sweating the assets.

Once pushed, I'd say eircom have a fairly good chance to rollout friarly extensive FTTH, using the FTTC cabinet locations as a starting point. Their infrastructure's very similar to any other European telco really and many of those have FTTH rollouts beginning / underway. Very few of them are market leaders in pushing the tech tho.

ukoda

ED E wrote: »

Read what you quoted.

Ah yes I read it wrong, apologies

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think though people are under-estimating the assets eircom has in place in terms of ducting. They're dragging their feet on fibre because as yet nobody's launched any FTTH products. UPC is probably worrying them with the 240mbit/s at this stage, but they could if they really wanted to do pair bonding with VDSL2 and get up to 200Mbit/s

I agree with everything you say, Eircom are a sleeping giant. Really they are only held back by their massive debts and their need to service those debts.

Makes it harder for them to raise lots of new debt for new capital investment.

I think Eircom will skip pair bonding and go straight to FTTH. Really no point doing 200mb/s pair bonding when they know perfectly well that UPC can roll out 500mb/s almost whenever they like.

BTW it isn't just the high spend of UPC that will be worrying them, but also the value for money. Just €45 for 240mb/s + unlimited mobile calls, makes Eircom 100mb/s + just national calls for €53 (and about to increase again in a few months) look like really bad value for money.

Hackery

godskitchen wrote: »

Where did you find those prices?

Section 4 of attached Price List http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=1448

Vego

Just seen a speed comparison on someone doing trials in cavan on the esb fibre ...when can we get this product ?

fabo1thecross

How does this product work. Was talking to a fella in Cavan and he said the router is plunged into the house plug socket. Esb power socket.

SpaceTime

bk wrote: »

I agree with everything you say, Eircom are a sleeping giant. Really they are only held back by their massive debts and their need to service those debts.

Makes it harder for them to raise lots of new debt for new capital investment.

I think Eircom will skip pair bonding and go straight to FTTH. Really no point doing 200mb/s pair bonding when they know perfectly well that UPC can roll out 500mb/s almost whenever they like.

BTW it isn't just the high spend of UPC that will be worrying them, but also the value for money. Just €45 for 240mb/s + unlimited mobile calls, makes Eircom 100mb/s + just national calls for €53 (and about to increase again in a few months) look like really bad value for money.

Pair bonding is very easy though especially in homes that have at least two lines coming in. Any house that was hooked up since the 1990s has at least one spare pair and even the NTU can handle two lines already.

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

Pair bonding is very easy though especially in homes that have at least two lines coming in. Any house that was hooked up since the 1990s has at least one spare pair and even the NTU can handle two lines already.

True, but it would still involve yet another engineer visit and yet another visit to the cab and extra ISAMs port being taken up in the cab and because of that perhaps even a new cab needing to be built for all the extra ports being used.

All to only give you 200Mb/s when UPC can turn on 500Mb/s almost overnight and ESB rolling out 1Gb/s FTTH.

I agree that VDSL was a nice, "good enough", stop gap measure, but I honestly think it is quickly approaching the stage where cheap stop gaps are no longer good enough for Eircom and they just have to swallow the cost and go ahead with FTTH.

SpaceTime

They actually have cab extension fitted on the VDSL cabinets now too! I had seen them on the PCP cabinets before but it seems they can extend the Huawei cabs too!

lucernarian

SpaceTime wrote: »

They actually have cab extension fitted on the VDSL cabinets now too! I had seen them on the PCP cabinets before but it seems they can extend the Huawei cabs too!

So far I've only seen them in Drogheda I think. Where else are they showing up? Apologies for going off topic.

Is there much info out there about how they will carry out installs for those urban areas who have overhead connections to the ESB network?

dbit

lucernarian wrote: »

So far I've only seen them in Drogheda I think. Where else are they showing up? Apologies for going off topic.

Is there much info out there about how they will carry out installs for those urban areas who have overhead connections to the ESB network?

Have seen them double up in a few places around north side of Cork City , Carrigaline, Douglas areas.

SpaceTime

Is there any sign of rollout happening anywhere?