World Cup 2014 Super Thread copyright warning #1645

Aenaes · 07-06-2014 5:48pm

Didn't know Lahm would play midfield for Germany. That might leave them a bit weak in the fullback positions, no?
With Lahm playing midfield alongside Schweinsteiger that means no room for Khedira or Kroos.

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 6:07pm

England lost

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 6:08pm

"The two lads who missed the penalties shouldn't have it count against them for too long" hmmmmm not too sure about that Des.

mike65 · 07-06-2014 6:09pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

England lost

Are you typing from the future? Wonder how much I can get on Honduras before PP realise?

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 6:10pm

mike65 wrote: »

Are you typing from the future? Wonder how much I can get on Honduras before PP realise?

Been watching the England vs West Germany 1990 match. The BBC have been streaming it this afternoon.

mike65 · 07-06-2014 6:17pm

Oh yes I forgot that was on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4PZ1i98FUQ

pavb2 · 07-06-2014 7:26pm

Why are Uruguay being tipped to do so well, I understand they have Suarez but what else?

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 7:29pm

pavb2 wrote: »

Why are Uruguay being tipped to do so well, I understand they have Suarez but what else?

Godin, Cavani, Caceres, Gaston, Rodriguez

K4t · 07-06-2014 7:29pm

pavb2 wrote: »

Why are Uruguay being tipped to do so well, I understand they have Suarez but what else?

"They keep the ball" etc

Oat23 · 07-06-2014 7:30pm

pavb2 wrote: »

Why are Uruguay being tipped to do so well, I understand they have Suarez but what else?

Only 2 EPL players so I doubt they win a game.

CSF · 07-06-2014 7:34pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Godin, Cavani, Caceres, Gaston, Rodriguez

Putting Gaston Ramirez in there isn't doing them any favours, I'm of the opinion that Uruguay will be the one to finish 3rd in that group.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 7:37pm

CSF wrote: »

Putting Gaston Ramirez in there isn't doing them any favours, I'm of the opinion that Uruguay will be the one to finish 3rd in that group.

I'll be shocked if they don't get through that group.

roanoke · 07-06-2014 7:41pm

I've a feeling it will be 1. Uruguay 2. England 3. Italy.

WRT Italy we can ignore friendlies and their traditionally bad buildups all we want, but I think there's got to be something genuinely wrong with at them moment? A team that can't win in 7 games, can't put away Luxembourg isn't going to make an impact at the WC.

Neeson · 07-06-2014 7:42pm

Belgium and Tunisia on Setanta.

And it's live.

batistuta9 · 07-06-2014 7:42pm

Neeson wrote: »

Belgium and Tunisia on Setanta.

And it's live.

is it FTV?

Neeson · 07-06-2014 7:45pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

is it FTV?

Setanta Ireland.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 8:02pm

roanoke wrote: »

I've a feeling it will be 1. Uruguay 2. England 3. Italy.

WRT Italy we can ignore friendlies and their traditionally bad buildups all we want, but I think there's got to be something genuinely wrong with at them moment? A team that can't win in 7 games, can't put away Luxembourg isn't going to make an impact at the WC.

Italy and Uruguay will both beat England. I expect both to qualify comfortably.

Pro. F · 07-06-2014 8:03pm

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Luiz gets an awful press in england and has made a few errors. I feel his style of play is better served in a more possession based league than in england. For brazil a team that will want a footballing centre back he is nearly as good as they come. Thinking of the likes of shawcross/dawson in a brazil jersey is no comparison. Im sure luiz will do well at psg and would have no problem playing at real/barca IMO. I agree with a fair few of your other comparisons particularly Cole who has been written off way too early.

I agree that Luiz is better served playing in a possession dominating team as his footballing skills are useful. But he is a liability defensively, there's no two ways about it. He has made a lot more than a few errors. He'll be covered by playing alongside Thiago Silva, with Brazil dominating possession and pressing high. But he will still be a weak link in their team.

He would want to do well at PSG, they play in a weak league and he'll be surrounded by world class talent.

glued wrote: »

Are you serious about De Jong? Easily Milan's player of the year and had a much better season than those 4 players combined. Also Marcelo is currently a much better player than Cole. De Jong at his worst his still a much better player than the likes of Britton and Cork

Of course I'm serious about de Jong. He's a horrifically overrated player. He was not impressive with Milan this year, who were extremely poor overall. It might be a bit harsh to say that Carrick was better than him, considering this season's form, but Barry is definitely better than him and Cork and Britton are twice the player he is.

Cole is excellent defensively and good going forward. Marcelo is okay defensively (nothing more) and good going forward.

Neeson · 07-06-2014 8:10pm

Belgium Tunisia taking a break due to hailstones!

klose · 07-06-2014 8:11pm

Wow those hailstones are massive

Smithwicks Man · 07-06-2014 8:11pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Of course I'm serious about de Jong. He's a horrifically overrated player. He was not impressive with Milan this year, who were extremely poor overall. It might be a bit harsh to say that Carrick was better than him, considering this season's form, but Barry is definitely better than him and Cork and Britton are twice the player he is.

Cole is excellent defensively and good going forward. Marcelo is okay defensively (nothing more) and good going forward.

:eek:

De Jong had a great season for Milan despite not having much quality around him and was, imo, Milan's best, most consistent player this year.

Can't remember the last time I read something so wrong as the bit in bold. De Jong is infinitely better than Barry (who I think is good enough) and I wouldn't even be comparing the other two to him.

You either haven't seen much of NDJ or you have something against him because I can't understand how you could rate him so lowly.

Smithwicks Man · 07-06-2014 8:18pm

Pro. F wrote: »

This is very subjective and you can just choose to quibble with any comparison I bring up. But fúck it, I'll try to stick to the more obvious, less controversial, ones.

France:
Evra < Cole
Sakho < Terry

Brazil:
David Luiz at CB < Terry, Shawcross and Dawson
Marcelo and Maxwell < Ashley Cole

Argentina:
Demichelis < Terry (and I'm sure Argetina have a few more weak CBs)
Maxi Rodriguez < Lennon, A Johnson, Jay Rodriguez, etc, etc.

I'm not very familiar with their defence (by all reports it's very weak), but are you telling me that all the left-backs in their squad are better than Cole?

Netherlands:
De Jong < Britton, Cork, Carrick and Barry
Clasie at DCM < Britton and Cork (although I do like Clasie, he's just not as good as those two)

Italy, Spain and Germany I'll give you.

I'm sure I've missed plenty more in all that, but searching around and comparing the weaker players in each top WC squad isn't the easiest job. The truth is you could say what you said about the English squad about most of the big sides at the tournament.

Only seeing this post now but it is absolutely nonsensical. John Terry retired from international football in 2012??

How can you use him being better than Demichelis (which I agree with) as an example??

And Ashley Cole wasn't brought because he played very little all year.

And I'd also argue that Cole is not better than Marcelo, and also that Dawson and Shawcross are not a better fit at CB than Luiz is for Brazil.

What do you think of this?

Shaw<Cole
Smalling<Terry
Phil Jone< Terry

I've already said what I thought about the De Jong situation, you're very, very wrong here I feel.

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 8:31pm

Does anybody know if Spain vs El Salvador is on any UK tv station tonight?

Pro. F · 07-06-2014 8:38pm

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Only seeing this post now but it is absolutely nonsensical. John Terry retired from international football in 2012??

How can you use him being better than Demichelis (which I agree with) as an example??

It's obvious Terry would come out of retirement if Roy had managed the situation well enough.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

And Ashley Cole wasn't brought because he played very little all year.

And I'd also argue that Cole is not better than Marcelo, and also that Dawson and Shawcross are not a better fit at CB than Luiz is for Brazil.

Cole was still excellent when he played. He is still a top class left-back. Cole is light years ahead of Evra who will be starting for France. And are you telling me that he is no better than any of the left-backs in the Argentina squad? Are you going to deny that Cole is better than these players?

I'm not going to bother arguing about Luiz and Shawcross and Dawson with you.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

What do you think of this?

Shaw<Cole
Smalling<Terry
Phil Jone< Terry

I'd probably agree with all of that. What's the point of it?

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

:eek:

De Jong had a great season for Milan despite not having much quality around him and was, imo, Milan's best, most consistent player this year.

Can't remember the last time I read something so wrong as the bit in bold. De Jong is infinitely better than Barry (who I think is good enough) and I wouldn't even be comparing the other two to him.

You either haven't seen much of NDJ or you have something against him because I can't understand how you could rate him so lowly.

I didn't see a lot of Milan and de Jong, but any time I did he was at the same standard as I have come to expect. Poor first touch and weak passing are his biggest flaws. He can hit some nice long passes which can be impressive, but that doesn't come close to making up for his poor touch and how he occasionally misplaces easy short passes. He was also poor positionally when defending, but I'd put that more down to the bad management situation at the club.

The fact that you think Britton and Cork are so poor just shows that we are never going to agree on central midfielders. You either don't rate touch and control as an important skill for the position or you aren't able to judge it. Either way I suspect that we would disagree on the abilities of most central midfielders.

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 8:52pm

Injuries and poor performances tonight aside I think we're seeing England's team vs Italy tonight vs Honduras. I thought Milner might play next week but I think he'd be playing tonight if so.

Hart

Johnson
Baines
Jagielka
Cahill

Henderson
Gerrard

Lallana
Rooney
Welbeck

Sturridge

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 8:54pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

Injuries and poor performances tonight aside I think we're seeing England's team vs Italy tonight vs Honduras. I thought Milner might play next week but I think he'd be playing tonight if so.

Hart

Johnson
Baines
Jagielka
Cahill

Henderson
Gerrard

Lallana
Rooney
Welbeck

Sturridge

Sterling for Welbeck and that's their strongest 11

Smithwicks Man · 07-06-2014 9:00pm

Pro. F wrote: »

It's obvious Terry would come out of retirement if Roy had managed the situation well enough.

Cole was still excellent when he played. He is still a top class left-back. Cole is light years ahead of Evra who will be starting for France. And are you telling me that he is no better than any of the left-backs in the Argentina squad? Are you going to deny that Cole is better than these players?

Well if he's not available, he's not available?

I agree that Ashley Cole is better than the LB or other countries, however, that one fact is not near sufficient to prove your overall point.

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm not going to bother arguing about Luiz and Shawcross and Dawson with you.

That's fair, but I'd imagine most would agree that David Luiz at CB for Brazil is a far better option than Michael Dawson or Ryan Shawcross.

Pro. F wrote: »

I'd probably agree with all of that. What's the point of it?

The point of it is that we are talking about the available talent pool of England in comparison to other counties and this debate started off by me saying "To be fair, there are plenty of players not in other squads that are better than players in the English squad"

To which you said that the same could be said about players not in the English squad better than players in other squads.

Then the two main examples you gave to back up this point were Terry and Cole. Now i have stated that you could also say that Terry and Cole are also better than Shaw and Smalling/Jones. Do you follow me here?

You can't say England better players not in the squad like Terry and Cole who are better than the players other teams brought when they're also better than the players England brought?

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't see a lot of Milan and de Jong, but any time I did he was at the same standard as I have come to expect. Poor first touch and weak passing are his biggest flaws. He can hit some nice long passes which can be impressive, but that doesn't come close to making up for his poor touch and how he occasionally misplaces easy short passes. He was also poor positionally when defending, but I'd put that more down to the bad management situation at the club.

The fact that you think Britton and Cork are so poor just shows that we are never going to agree on central midfielders. You either don't rate touch and control as an important skill for the position or you aren't able to judge it. Either way I suspect that we would disagree on the abilities of most central midfielders.

I agree about De Jong, his shocking pass completion rate of 91.4% this season has let him down. You're talking absolute rubbish. In 2010-11, De Jong also had the highest pass completion rate out of any player in the Premiership. He is an accomplished passer of the ball and his positioning is also very good.

Milan's lack of cohesion should have hindered him a lot more than it did this season because of the type of player that he is but yet he still managed to be their best player. He will be integral to Holland's chances in Brazil.

And I never once said that I thought Britton or Cork were poor players, they just aren't near the same quality of De Jong imo.

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 9:05pm

David Batty had the highest pass completion rate in England for a couple of years. It's easy to play a pass when you're just laying the ball off two yards to a more gifted player.

If I can interject into this debate, it would seem that you're both appreciating different types of midfielders. There's room for both.

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 9:11pm

Penalty! La Roja start quick, Costa shows exactly what he offers to this side, his run in behind El Salvador is the directness needed at times.

Fabregas misses the penalty by a long way though.

batistuta9 · 07-06-2014 9:16pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Does anybody know if Spain vs El Salvador is on any UK tv station tonight?

it's FTV on setanta sports 1 at 4am

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 9:17pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

it's FTV on setanta sports 1 at 4am

Ye I saw that, can't believe they aren't showing it live.

Corholio · 07-06-2014 9:21pm

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

That's fair, but I'd imagine most would agree that David Luiz at CB for Brazil is a far better option than Michael Dawson or Ryan Shawcross.

As purely a defender I think Shawcross is better, Luiz may be all bells and whistles with his free kicks etc but I'd be more confident with Shawcross at centre half than Luiz.

Iused2likebusts · 07-06-2014 9:23pm

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree that Luiz is better served playing in a possession dominating team as his footballing skills are useful. But he is a liability defensively, there's no two ways about it. He has made a lot more than a few errors. He'll be covered by playing alongside Thiago Silva, with Brazil dominating possession and pressing high. But he will still be a weak link in their team.

.

I think his defensive weaknesses and the mistakes he makes are massively overstated as he doesnt suit the image of a stereotypical British CB. I think luiz would be one of the two first choice CBs at every club in the PL bar Chelsea and Arsenal. Then outside of england I could see him comfortably playing CB at nearly all of the european superpowers.

Corholio · 07-06-2014 9:31pm

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I think his defensive weaknesses and the mistakes he makes are massively overstated as he doesnt suit the image of a stereotypical British CB. I think luiz would be one of the two first choice CBs at every club in the PL bar Chelsea and Arsenal. Then outside of england I could see him comfortably playing CB at nearly all of the european superpowers.

I don't think they are overstated. This is something that is always said when someone says that a player is liable to make mistakes. It's got nothing to do with image at all. It just seems he loses concentration in games or something, because his marking at times can be terrible. Silva will need to be doubly alert in that respect. There's quite a few better central defenders in Europe definitely.

Paully D · 07-06-2014 9:42pm

A note for those without ITV/BBC who want to view it or who don't want to use lower quality streams - if you use Chrome, download an extension called ZenMate. It's an excellent extension which allows you to change your IP address and will give you BBC iPlayer and ITV Player, which shows the games they are carrying live, online and in excellent quality. It's only going to be free for a certain period of time, but we may get the World Cup out of it.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 9:49pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ye I saw that, can't believe they aren't showing it live.

You don't seem to be missing too much judging by the current scoreline.

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 9:51pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

You don't seem to be missing too much judging by the current scoreline.

I'm watching it through other means. On the contrary, there has been a lot to see and a lot to learn.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 9:53pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm watching it through other means. On the contrary, there has been a lot to see and a lot to learn.

Are they passing the ball a lot without actually doing anything with it?

How in the name of God is Glen Johnson first choice for England? Surely Jon Flanagan would be a much better option.

Pro. F · 07-06-2014 9:57pm

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Well if he's not available, he's not available?

Except that it's obvious Terry would come out of retirement if Roy had managed the situation well enough. Go on sticking your fingers in your ears there and just pretending that he couldn't have been called up if asked and managed properly. It's a piss poor argument.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

That's fair, but I'd imagine most would agree that David Luiz at CB for Brazil is a far better option than Michael Dawson or Ryan Shawcross.

I'm not interested in what most people's opinions are on any particular football matter. The fans, journalists and pundits who don't have a clue are in the overwhelming majority. I'm happy to form my opinions without regard to what most people think.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

The point of it is that we are talking about the available talent pool of England in comparison to other counties and this debate started off by me saying "To be fair, there are plenty of players not in other squads that are better than players in the English squad"

To which you said that the same could be said about players not in the English squad better than players in other squads.

Then the two main examples you gave to back up this point were Terry and Cole. Now i have stated that you could also say that Terry and Cole are also better than Shaw and Smalling/Jones. Do you follow me here?

You can't say England better players not in the squad like Terry and Cole who are better than the players other teams brought when they're also better than the players England brought?

If you repeat the process that we just went through using Shaw, Smalling and Jones instead of Cole and Terry you will still find players that they are better than, going to the tournament with some of the big nations.

As I've said since, your "To be fair, there are plenty of players not in other squads that are better than players in the English squad" could be said about a good few of the big international squads. If you compare the weaknesses of one international squad, to all the other international squads then you will find those match ups. It is a convoluted and ineffective way of assessing the depth of talent available.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I agree about De Jong, his shocking pass completion rate of 91.4% this season has let him down. You're talking absolute rubbish. In 2010-11, De Jong also had the highest pass completion rate out of any player in the Premiership. He is an accomplished passer of the ball and his positioning is also very good.

Milan's lack of cohesion should have hindered him a lot more than it did this season because of the type of player that he is but yet he still managed to be their best player. He will be integral to Holland's chances in Brazil.

And I never once said that I thought Britton or Cork were poor players, they just aren't near the same quality of De Jong imo.

Pass completion stats without context are a rubbish way of judging central midfielders. They end up making people think that Carrick is better than Xabi Alonso.

A pass that puts a centre-back in trouble or slows a building attack is still counted as a completed pass. A pass where the CM drops between the CBs to do their job for them (playing easy passes under no pressure from deep) and achieves fúck all is still counted as a completed pass. A CM who doesn't have the skill to demand the ball when closely marked, turn on it and pass to the free team-mate, so taking his markers out of the game, can still rack up good pass completion numbers.

You think that Britton and Cork are poor enough as to not even be worth comparing to de Jong. That's what I meant by "so poor".

Tox56 · 07-06-2014 9:58pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Sterling for Welbeck and that's their strongest 11

Ive long been saying this but Roy really doesnt seem interested, hasnt even started him for one of the games, even the one with the completely changed side.

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 10:00pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Are they passing the ball a lot without actually doing anything with it?

How in the name of God is Glen Johnson first choice for England? Surely Jon Flanagan would be a much better option.

Their passing has been very sharp, it's been surprisingly quick given how slow the pitch is playing. The patterns and attempts to play their way through have been terrific.

Playing with a 3 man midfield with Alonso at the base, the tactic of playing long to the direct runs of Pedro and Costa have been obvious, it's yielded chances and won Spain the penalty.

Not exactly news but Koke is fantastic. Has a real control of the game and the energy and physicality to do the off the ball stuff.

Costa's direct running and presence offers Spain a different dimension and should pose different problems to teams when they set up to defend against Spain.

The pressing of La Roja has been excellent, it will be a key factor if Spain are to retain their title but based on tonight and the previous game it appears rejuvenated to an extent. If it's given an extra 10% that you'd hope World Cup games will spur on then Spain could be back to their best.

And that was the first half.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-06-2014 10:03pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Their passing has been very sharp, it's been surprisingly quick given how slow the pitch is playing. The patterns and attempts to play their way through have been terrific.

Playing with a 3 man midfield with Alonso at the base, the tactic of playing long to the direct runs of Pedro and Costa have been obvious, it's yielded chances and won Spain the penalty.

Not exactly news but Koke is fantastic. Has a real control of the game and the energy and physicality to do the off the ball stuff.

Costa's direct running and presence offers Spain a different dimension and should pose different problems to teams when they set up to defend against Spain.

The pressing of La Roja has been excellent, it will be a key factor if Spain are to retain their title but based on tonight and the previous game it appears rejuvenated to an extent. If it's given an extra 10% that you'd hope World Cup games will spur on then Spain could be back to their best.

And that was the first half.

They are playing against El Salvador.

Looper007 · 07-06-2014 10:04pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Sterling for Welbeck and that's their strongest 11

I have Wilshire ahead of Henderson and I probably pick Ox (if he was fit ahead of Sterling) he has a little more experience. I don't get the love for Henderson, he's just a grafter for me.

Andersonisgod · 07-06-2014 10:06pm

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

They are playing against El Salvador.

Sure, however Spain will always attempt to play the same way no matter the opponent, only with subtle differences, for example the diagonals and lobbed passes in behind to take advantage of the high line.

Neeson · 07-06-2014 10:08pm

Not again!! Suspended!

Beefy78 · 07-06-2014 10:08pm

England game suspended because of lightning.

Looper007 · 07-06-2014 10:09pm

I'm not liking the look of England during these three friendlies. If they came up agaisn't a team with pace and power like a Germany or Spain they will be found out.

ArmaniJeanss · 07-06-2014 10:11pm

Its the Night of Interesting Weather.

K4t · 07-06-2014 10:12pm

Clever play by Hodgson to orchestrate an electrical storm giving Rooney a rest.

Paully D · 07-06-2014 10:12pm

This is what happens when you play a game at 5pm in the middle of summer in Miami. :pac:

World Cup 2014 Super Thread copyright warning #1645

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