Enough

ART6

I am not sure where the right place to post this is but Irish Economy is the only place I could think of so, mods, I am at your mercy!

At lunchtime today my village shop was raided by armed thugs. Our village is eight miles away from the city, and the nearest Garda station is on the other side of the city. The station that was only three miles away was closed long ago. We are a small community that thought itself secure and too remote from the troubles that seem to be afflicting our country nowadays. How wrong we were!

The owner of the shop is my friend, and is a pillar of the community. His assistant is a lovely lady that I share jokes with every morning when I go for the messages. That some vermin could do that to him and to her inflames me with rage, and by all of the gods I want them to be caught and to suffer for it. If I had my way, and ignoring this human rights world that we now appear to live in, I would flog the B.... to the inch of their lives!

Unfortunately, I know that if the thugs are caught (unlikely) and are brought to court, one will plead that his girlfriend was pregnant and he needed the money. Another will plead that he had a deprived upbringing because his parents spend all of their welfare money on drugs and booze and couldn't afford to buy him a teddy to cuddle. A learned judge will seek psychological reports, will give bail, and will finally pass a sentence that will be reduced by any time spent in police custody, with half of it suspended with the result that the thugs will be immediately released into the community, laughing their sick heads off, to resume their activities. In all of this convoluted legal procedure the HUMAN RIGHTS of the miscreants will be respected, but not those of the victims like my friends.

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

Ah no. We can establish neighbourhood watches that require the people to protect themselves when the state refuses to, but we cannot take up arms against the criminals that threaten us because that might infringe the criminal's human rights. We can now resist them provided that we only use "reasonable force" when those of us who are not trained in the military or the Gardai would not know what "reasonable force" is. Is smacking a knife-wielding intruder over the head with an axe reasonable force Mister Shatter? Will doing that to protect my wife and my family constitute unreasonable force that might get me a prison sentence along with all the serious criminals who have not paid their TV licences?

This has got to stop. This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop. It is the first and absolute duty of government to ensure the protection of its people and the application of the law that the people determined (but not necessarily what the liberal elite in politics chose and certainly not what politicians in ivory towers removed from common life dictate ).

Where do we go from here? If, in our village, we are to to defend ourselves, then why should we not take up arms? Ah no! That leads to vigilante groups, and no civilised society could countenance that. FINE. THEN LET THE STATE DO IT'S DAMNED JOB FOR ONCE!!!!

woodoo

ART6 wrote: »

Where do we go from here?

The big issue for me is the lax sentencing in this country. Everyone needs to being this issue up on the doorsteps when politicians come around election time. Or contact them at their clinics. Without the public really putting pressure on the politicians then there is no chance of it changing.

The first question i'll be asking is why some scrot with 50 or 60 convictions isn't given a good long term in prison.

Damien360

woodoo wrote: »

The big issue for me is the lax sentencing in this country. Everyone needs to being this issue up on the doorsteps when politicians come around election time. Or contact them at their clinics. Without the public really putting pressure on the politicians then there is no chance of it changing.

The first question i'll be asking is why some scrot with 50 or 60 convictions isn't given a good long term in prison.

This will not happen. The politicians will not touch the courts in case they shout political interference in the courts, despite the fact that every single judge has been appointed by a serving government.

As long as the legal merry-go-round/gravy train is allowed to continue, the laughable situation of people walking the streets with 50/60 convictions will continue.

There should be a limit and then you disappear for many years. Not quite 3 strikes and you are out, but a points system that accounts for the seriousness of the crime and then you get shipped away for many years.

Build a prison away from dublin to reduce cost of land purchase and provide skype for prisoners court visits and family visits. No need for silly trips to see the judge at taxpayer expense. Legal costs can be curtailed by change that the state will pay a maximum of € ? per day only, regardless of outcome, for all legal aid. They can still get the best lawyers but have to pay the difference themselves.

Might need consitutional change to force judge to accept skype or similar.

Prison a holiday with your buddies at the moment for the scumbags.

carpejugulum

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

ART6

carpejugulum wrote: »

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

Perhaps because it would permit me and my community to protect ourselves against attackers who are armed?

wexie

carpejugulum wrote: »

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

Once 4 or 5 robbers are shot in a shop it's unlikely it'll get robbed again.*

*YMMV

On a somewhat more serious note, while it's certainly not the best answer I can definitely see why shopkeepers and the likes are arming themselves if they know the gards are 45 minutes away (if they're coming at all).

It's not an ideal solution but it's certainly understandable and I'd be surprised if this isn't already happening around the country.

carpejugulum

ART6 wrote: »

Perhaps because it would permit me and my community to protect ourselves against attackers who are armed?

No, it wouldn't.

ART6

carpejugulum wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

You seem very sure of that. I am not. I reserve the right to defend myself, and I am quite good at doing so. However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

Scofflaw

ART6 wrote: »

You seem very sure of that. I am not. I reserve the right to defend myself, and I am quite good at doing so. However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

longhalloween

I'd like a prison on the Blasket Islands, Alcatraz style.

D Trent

ART6 wrote: »

I am not sure where the right place to post this is but Irish Economy is the only place I could think of so, mods, I am at your mercy!

At lunchtime today my village shop was raided by armed thugs. Our village is eight miles away from the city, and the nearest Garda station is on the other side of the city. The station that was only three miles away was closed long ago. We are a small community that thought itself secure and too remote from the troubles that seem to be afflicting our country nowadays. How wrong we were!

The owner of the shop is my friend, and is a pillar of the community. His assistant is a lovely lady that I share jokes with every morning when I go for the messages. That some vermin could do that to him and to her inflames me with rage, and by all of the gods I want them to be caught and to suffer for it. If I had my way, and ignoring this human rights world that we now appear to live in, I would flog the B.... to the inch of their lives!

Unfortunately, I know that if the thugs are caught (unlikely) and are brought to court, one will plead that his girlfriend was pregnant and he needed the money. Another will plead that he had a deprived upbringing because his parents spend all of their welfare money on drugs and booze and couldn't afford to buy him a teddy to cuddle. A learned judge will seek psychological reports, will give bail, and will finally pass a sentence that will be reduced by any time spent in police custody, with half of it suspended with the result that the thugs will be immediately released into the community, laughing their sick heads off, to resume their activities. In all of this convoluted legal procedure the HUMAN RIGHTS of the miscreants will be respected, but not those of the victims like my friends.

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

Ah no. We can establish neighbourhood watches that require the people to protect themselves when the state refuses to, but we cannot take up arms against the criminals that threaten us because that might infringe the criminal's human rights. We can now resist them provided that we only use "reasonable force" when those of us who are not trained in the military or the Gardai would not know what "reasonable force" is. Is smacking a knife-wielding intruder over the head with an axe reasonable force Mister Shatter? Will doing that to protect my wife and my family constitute unreasonable force that might get me a prison sentence along with all the serious criminals who have not paid their TV licences?

This has got to stop. This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop. It is the first and absolute duty of government to ensure the protection of its people and the application of the law that the people determined (but not necessarily what the liberal elite in politics chose and certainly not what politicians in ivory towers removed from common life dictate ).

Where do we go from here? If, in our village, we are to to defend ourselves, then why should we not take up arms? Ah no! That leads to vigilante groups, and no civilised society could countenance that. FINE. THEN LET THE STATE DO IT'S DAMNED JOB FOR ONCE!!!!

Where did this raid occur? Or at least what is the nearest city?

fran38

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

I don't mean to be flippant OP. This obviously is a real concern to you. But do you think the minister of justice is an avid boardsie? Why not email him your post? This is like those 'open letters' to politicians we see in the letters section of broadsheets every once and a while. why not go straight to the source? While I don't know his governmental addy, I'm sure it's not too difficult to find.

ART6

Scofflaw wrote: »

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't particularly want to go about armed, and I don't want my village shopkeeper to have to keep a shotgun behind his counter. Instead I expect the government to fulfill it's duty to protect it's citizens, and this government is doing so by closing Garda stations.

fran38 wrote: »

I don't mean to be flippant OP. This obviously is a real concern to you. But do you think the minister of justice is an avid boardsie? Why not email him your post? This is like those 'open letters' to politicians we see in the letters section of broadsheets every once and a while. why not go straight to the source? While I don't know his governmental addy, I'm sure it's not too difficult to find.

I doubt if the minister for justice, given his coalition's majority, reads any criticism of gives a damn when he hears of any. My purpose in posting here was simply that the more people know about such incidences the more chance there is that this government's behavior will be taken into account at the next election. And yes, I have every intention of writing to what passes for the minister for justice, although I have no doubt that I will be ignored.

RichardAnd

If it were possible to purchase a firearm as per the United States, then shootings and the like would increase. However, the point that's often missed is that a gun is simply a machine. It only kills someone when it's in the hands of a human being. Guns don't make people more likely to kill each other than they already are. Humans are violent, irrational, destructive and emotional life forms, and they managed to kill each other very well long before guns were invented.

The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims. In my opinion, I see no problem with owning a gum for self defense. The state seems fairly incapable of protecting its citizens, and the police force seems more interested in collecting fines, so what are the people to do?

All lifeforms have a right and a ability to defend themselves? It's a nice thought that humans have evolved beyond all of that. Sadly, as with most of humanity's superiority complex fantasies, it's not true. If it were, I wouldn't need to lock my door at night, but I do. I'd also sleep more comfortably with the knowledge that if someone were to invade my home, I could at least defend myself without fear of the "justice" system.

My two cents.

ART6

RichardAnd wrote: »

If it were possible to purchase a firearm as per the United States, then shootings and the like would increase. However, the point that's often missed is that a gun is simply a machine. It only kills someone when it's in the hands of a human being. Guns don't make people more likely to kill each other than they already are. Humans are violent, irrational, destructive and emotional life forms, and they managed to kill each other very well long before guns were invented.

The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims. In my opinion, I see no problem with owning a gum for self defense. The state seems fairly incapable of protecting its citizens, and the police force seems more interested in collecting fines, so what are the people to do?

All lifeforms have a right and a ability to defend themselves? It's a nice thought that humans have evolved beyond all of that. Sadly, as with most of humanity's superiority complex fantasies, it's not true. If it were, I wouldn't need to lock my door at night, but I do. I'd also sleep more comfortably with the knowledge that if someone were to invade my home, I could at least defend myself without fear of the "justice" system.

My two cents.

Exactly! I don't want to have to resort to violence to protect myself. I expect the government and the police service to provide the assurance of my safety and that of my family, and I expect the justice system to punish severely any who attack me. If that is not to be the case then I reserve the right to defend myself by whatever manner I choose and be damned to Mr. Shatter!

golfball37

You can bet at least one of the assailants is probably out on bail currently and combined their convictions run past 50.

Still nobody will question the juciacary and how they allow the legal aid scam fund their god children in the legal profession at the expense of ordinary people.

johnnyskeleton

Damien360 wrote: »

Might need consitutional change to force judge to accept skype or similar.

Or, just go down to one of the remand courts today and see the video link system being used.

Everyone is entitled to hold a view on how the legal system works, but if you want to suggest actual reforms you might consider what is actually happening at present.

jmayo

carpejugulum wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

Ehh it might.
AFAIK criminality in a certain part of Mayo/Galway decreased rapidly after a certain individual was dealt with.
BTW the same individual had four bench warrants oustanding for his arrest, was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook and had 30 previous convictions.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

And penalising those who use their weapons to defend themselves and their property is also wrong.
Oh and when people talk about arming themselves in Ireland they are not talking about tooling up with AKs, Glocks, AR15, etc.

And what always gets me is how people neglect to mention other countries with high gun ownership (sometimes where people can even possess actual military assault rifles) which doesn't have the same comparable level of gun crime as the US.

Zubeneschamali

ART6 wrote: »

However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

spank_inferno

Is this a rant at the criminal justice system or just Alan Shatter?

I seem to recall there being aggravated burglaries, untouchable judiciary & soft sentencing prior to 2011.

ART6

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh it might.
AFAIK criminality in a certain part of Mayo/Galway decreased rapidly after a certain individual was dealt with.
BTW the same individual had four bench warrants oustanding for his arrest, was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook and had 30 previous convictions.



And penalising those who use their weapons to defend themselves and their property is also wrong.
Oh and when people talk about arming themselves in Ireland they are not talking about tooling up with AKs, Glocks, AR15, etc.

And what always gets me is how people neglect to mention other countries with high gun ownership (sometimes where people can even possess actual military assault rifles) which doesn't have the same comparable level of gun crime as the US.

Quite. Switzerland for example. Perhaps the problem in the USA is not the number of guns per-se but might have something to do with demographics?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

I know what I'd prefer to give them!


As an update on this post, it appears that there were two masked robbers driving an English registered car. They had already robbed one shop in a nearby village, then raided the one in ours, and then moved on the attack another one fifteen miles away. There is only one road into and out of our village, and only two out of the last one they raided. To me this suggests a casual disregard for the Gardai in the firm expectation that their chances of being caught were zero -- and as it happened they were right! This, I suspect, is a situation particular to Ireland -- it is not so much a case of the level of violent crime and robbery, but more that the robbers are confident that they will not be caught and can go about their actions with impunity.

Each of the shops they raided were, with the exception of ours, post offices (ours was closed by An Post three years ago). Yet it seems not to have occurred to the Gardai to warn the others in the area after the first one was raided.

spank_inferno

Can you name the villages please.

bmaxi

Firstly, I thing the OP is being naive in assuming that living in a small isolated community would make them immune from robbery, the shop in a village near where I live was robbed twice in the space of nine months and if that wasn't bad enough, both times by the same person. This is a damning indictment of the justice system. How can somebody convicted of a serious crime be free, within a few short months, to do the same again? How can someone given, IMO, a ridiculously short sentence of 30 months for committing the offence and carrying an offensive weapon, be free within four months of the sentencing? Neighbourhood Watch and Text Alert schemes can only go so far in cases like this, the situation still stands that even if there are several neighbours in the immediate vicinity, their only option is to call Gardaí who could take hours to arrive.
Another disgrace is the fact that those people who attacked and threatened the family in Tipperary have been given bail, these people have demonstrated that they are prepared to inflict terror and injury on innocent people and threaten to kill their children. These people are now free to carry on as before and have interim offences "taken into consideration" when they stand trial or indeed, if they stand trial. Given their background, the likelihood of them disappearing from the face of the planet is highly likely.
If you were the innocent family concerned, how secure would you feel going about your daily business, would you let your children out to play, would you worry about your elderly parents? That family have been the victims of a vicious attack and still can't feel safe in their own home even though the perpetrators have been caught. This is the reality of the Irish justice system.

ART6

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is this a rant at the criminal justice system or just Alan Shatter?

I seem to recall there being aggravated burglaries, untouchable judiciary & soft sentencing prior to 2011.

My post was not intended to simply be a rant -- if that was my purpose I would have put it in After Hours. In fact I was attempting to stimulate debate on what I consider to be a failed justice and policing system, using this case as an example. I criticised Alan Shatter because he is the current justice minister and the one who has somehow improved rural policing by closing 100 rural Garda stations so that there are many communities without access to Gardai within ten or twenty miles. This does not mean that I am oblivious to the incompetence of previous ministers or that I have any party political leanings. On the contrary, I believe that Shatter is simply continuing with the long-establish policy of indifference to the responsibilities of government to protect its citizens.

spank_inferno wrote: »

Can you name the villages please.

Cheekpoint, Co. Waterford.

MilanPan!c

All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.

Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.

On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.

It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.

And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.

Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.

And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.

RichardAnd

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

And what would you do if there were to come back again and ask for more money you don't have? Of course, that assumes that they let you go after the first meeting.

spank_inferno

ART6 wrote: »

My post was not intended to simply be a rant -- if that was my purpose I would have put it in After Hours. In fact I was attempting to stimulate debate on what I consider to be a failed justice and policing system, using this case as an example. I criticised Alan Shatter because he is the current justice minister and the one who has somehow improved rural policing by closing 100 rural Garda stations so that there are many communities without access to Gardai within ten or twenty miles. This does not mean that I am oblivious to the incompetence of previous ministers or that I have any party political leanings. On the contrary, I believe that Shatter is simply continuing with the long-establish policy of indifference to the responsibilities of government to protect its citizens.



Cheekpoint, Co. Waterford.

What is your solution then?

Zubeneschamali

RichardAnd wrote: »

And what would you do if there were to come back again and ask for more money you don't have? Of course, that assumes that they let you go after the first meeting.

They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.

Godge

ART6 wrote: »

Exactly! I don't want to have to resort to violence to protect myself. I expect the government and the police service to provide the assurance of my safety and that of my family, and I expect the justice system to punish severely any who attack me. If that is not to be the case then I reserve the right to defend myself by whatever manner I choose and be damned to Mr. Shatter!

(1) You and your community and the rest of the country do not pay enough taxes to provide the service you want.

(2) 50 years of bad planning have led to too many communities too small to make provision of essential services economical.

This means that if you have 100 people paying tax in a village, how much tax do you think is necessary to provide a 24/7 garda service (about 3.5 full-time gardai), a primary school (4 teachers plus extras), a medical service, roads to the isolated village, electricity broadband etc. Well, I can tell you, a lot more tax than the 100 people pay at the moment.

RichardAnd

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make. What if you have no cash to give them?

As to your confidence that they will be arrested, there are two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it is just that; an assumption. Secondly, even if they were to be apprehended, they could mug, injure or even kill any number of people beforehand.

Zubeneschamali

RichardAnd wrote: »

What if you have no cash to give them?

They aren't getting any money on that raid, so.

jmayo

MilanPan!c wrote: »

All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.

Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.

Yes, but in Ireland we appear to do as much as possible to make sure the known, convicted or charged ones are allowed roam the country.
It is gone past a joke when the 6 pieces of shyte that terrorised that family in their home in Tipperary are out on bail.
How many of them have previous convictions.
The only hope of getting rid of criminals in this country is to let them kill each other.
Perhaps we should be grateful that at least they are providing the service of culling themselves.

Nally had the damm right idea.
It is no use relying on our Gardaí who when they actually do catch people are further scuppered by a justice system that bends over backwards for the criminals and just adds to the pain of the victims.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.

It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.

And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.

Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.

And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.

Even when we were flush with cash, we did nothing.
It is not just lack of cash, it is inaction and listening to muppets that continously excuse others bad behaviour and criminality.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.

And one would swear you were talking about some cat burglars from the movies.
I can list a few old people that lived on their own who were assualted, terrorised and in a couple of cases left to die a painful and lonely death.

RichardAnd wrote: »

You're missing the point I'm trying to make. What if you have no cash to give them?

As to your confidence that they will be arrested, there are two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it is just that; an assumption. Secondly, even if they were to be apprehended, they could mug, injure or even kill any number of people beforehand.

And you are forgetting even after they have been arrested, charged and brought before a court, they are released on bail or remand to carry on as normal.

bmaxi

MilanPan!c wrote: »

All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.

Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.

On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.

It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.

And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.

Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.

And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.

As the past few weeks have demonstrated, funding tends not to be an issue where certain projects are concerned. Millions and billions are readily available as civil servants devise ever more spurious reasons to extract more taxes from Seán Citizen.
Latest figures suggest it costs c.€100,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner in prison, yet an OAP is expected to feed, clothe and heat themselves for one tenth of that, and that's before rent, medicines and other necessities are considered. Now it is proposed to tax them again for the water they need to survive.
Why are criminals pampered, why do their cells have to be heated night and day, indeed why do the need to be heated at all, why do they need to have a choice of menu at each meal? I would have no qualms in sending the likes of Gilligan, Meehan and Co. and all habitual criminals out, in whatever weather to build flood defences, dig ditches, shovel ****, whatever, so long as they were making a contribution to society. Instead they are left to sit all day long in their cells, no doubt organising their criminal empires for the next job. Anybody who has spent all day mixing concrete by hand on a building site will tell you, it's a good way to focus mind and body. Slash the budget for the prisons and use the money to recruit more Gardaí, leave these scum to stew in their own juice.
I watched a documentary recently where a volunteer was recreating the daily life of a prisoner in nineteenth century England. His daily existence comprised moving a pile of earth from one place to another, without benefit of a wheelbarrow, he was given twelve hours to do it and was not given an evening meal of bread and soup, if he did not complete it, the next day he moved it back. This would continue for the duration of his sentence. As the actor said, " by the end of the day, I wasn't likely to be a problem to
anybody"
Before the bleeding hearts jump in with, Dickensian or rabbit on about rehabilitation, ask yourself, how much rehabilitation will it take to restore quality of life to Veronica Gueirin or Jerry Mc Cabe, or even that family in Tipperary who I mentioned in an earlier post.

ART6

Godge wrote: »

(1) You and your community and the rest of the country do not pay enough taxes to provide the service you want.

(2) 50 years of bad planning have led to too many communities too small to make provision of essential services economical.

This means that if you have 100 people paying tax in a village, how much tax do you think is necessary to provide a 24/7 garda service (about 3.5 full-time gardai), a primary school (4 teachers plus extras), a medical service, roads to the isolated village, electricity broadband etc. Well, I can tell you, a lot more tax than the 100 people pay at the moment.

To start with, there a lot more than 100 people in our village and it's combined Faithlegg but yes, there is a tax issue. I pay €760 a year car tax on a car that I bought with taxed income, €260 a year bin charges, €350 a year property tax, tax on my income and excise duty and VAT on the fuel that I buy to drive on cratered roads. Almost every thing I buy to sustain my family is subjected to VAT, and there are the endless stealth taxes (like Irish Water) that have yet to be revealed. I pay for private health insurance that is subject to a government levy amounting to €350 a year, and I have small savings that are subjected to DIRT tax of 41%.

I don't know what money the government takes from the average Irish family a year (I assume here a family of two people with two children, possibly both parents working), but I would hazard a guess that it is more that 60% of income. I don't know because in this democracy the real figures are hidden in a quagmire of political subterfuge and stealth taxes.

Ireland is still predominantly a rural community (and how that has changed over the last thirty years is irrelevant). It is the absolute responsibility of government to protect the peace of its people, and in that in my view successive governments have failed.

Now here is the rant if you insist: The traditional political parties have failed the people in order to further their party security. They have failed the people in order to claim the outlandish salaries, pensions, expenses (yes, I know this has been said before many times), but in spite of the assurances from our Dear Leader nothing has changed.

bmaxi

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They aren't getting any money on that raid, so.

What if they don't believe you and decide to beat seven kinds of **** out of you and your family instead?

djpbarry

ART6 wrote: »

This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop.

Just to be clear – you’re attempting to link a robbery in a small Irish town with the bailout?

ART6 wrote: »

This, I suspect, is a situation particular to Ireland -- it is not so much a case of the level of violent crime and robbery, but more that the robbers are confident that they will not be caught and can go about their actions with impunity.

So you want a Garda presence, country-wide, 24 hours-a-day, 7 days-a-week, 365-days-a-year? How many more Gards would be required for such a colossal surveillance operation and how much would it all cost?

ART6 wrote: »

Each of the shops they raided were, with the exception of ours, post offices (ours was closed by An Post three years ago). Yet it seems not to have occurred to the Gardai to warn the others in the area after the first one was raided.

You know this how?

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

Even when we were flush with cash, we did nothing.

I really doubt that “more prisons please” was a common request heard by politicians on the doorsteps of Ireland during the boom years.

djpbarry

RichardAnd wrote: »

The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims...

So, if tomorrow, it suddenly became relatively easy to acquire firearms in Ireland, who do you suppose is going to take full advantage of that situation? Potential/convicted violent criminals, or their potential victims?

Zubeneschamali

bmaxi wrote: »

What if they don't believe you and decide to beat seven kinds of **** out of you and your family instead?

I'd be inclined to tell the guards about that.

djpbarry

bmaxi wrote: »

Before the bleeding hearts jump in with, Dickensian or rabbit on about rehabilitation, ask yourself, how much rehabilitation will it take to restore quality of life to Veronica Gueirin or Jerry Mc Cabe, or even that family in Tipperary who I mentioned in an earlier post.

We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?

bmaxi wrote: »

Latest figures suggest it costs c.€100,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner in prison, yet an OAP is expected to feed, clothe and heat themselves for one tenth of that...

So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?

jmayo

djpbarry wrote: »

I really doubt that “more prisons please” was a common request heard by politicians on the doorsteps of Ireland during the boom years.

They were trying to build a new prison, but it turned into another scratch my back where someone connected to politicans did ok at the taxpayers expense.
How much was spent and yet we still probably have cows grazing in the fields ?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd be inclined to tell the guards about that.

Why don't you tell that to the likes of poor old Eddie Fitzmaurice the 83 year old who was left to die in his home in May 1998.
Nobody has ever been brought to justice for that and even if they are, there will probably be someone making excuses for them.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=9217

djpbarry wrote: »

We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?
So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?

Getting old is not a choice, becoming a criminal and continuing to be one is.
Breaking into someone homes, beating the shyte out of them, threatening their kids is a fooking choice.

Where is the rehabilitation for the victims.
Or is trundle off to the graveyard your form of rehabilitation for some poor families. :mad:

bmaxi

djpbarry wrote: »

We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?
So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?

Got it in one.

bmaxi

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd be inclined to tell the guards about that.

So would I, providing I wasn't in a coma of course. I'd much rather it didn't come to that though and these people could be persuaded not to do it in the first place. It would appear the penal system is not persuasive enough for many of them so another means might have to be found.

spank_inferno

Either pay more tax to cover the cost of state services or live closer to each other to make said services less costly.

Paddy does not like doing either though.

Also... Respecting the I pax 'x-tax' issue, Ireland is around OECD average for taxes collected as % of national income.

If we want a bigger state, either the state gets cheaper or we pay more.

djpbarry

jmayo wrote: »

Getting old is not a choice, becoming a criminal and continuing to be one is.

Pensioners are well looked after in Ireland, so I’ve no idea why this was brought into the discussion. Whether people like it or not, running a prison is an expensive gig and if people want tougher sentencing, it’s going to cost them.

djpbarry

bmaxi wrote: »

Got it in one.

So you want to turn all the petty criminals into violent psychopaths?

oscarBravo

bmaxi wrote: »

It would appear the penal system is not persuasive enough for many of them so another means might have to be found.

Correct. Hence the argument for rehabilitation.

bmaxi

djpbarry wrote: »

So you want to turn all the petty criminals into violent psychopaths?

That's a ridiculous statement.

bmaxi

oscarBravo wrote: »

Correct. Hence the argument for rehabilitation.

On the other hand it could be an argument for a tougher prison regime.

djpbarry

bmaxi wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

No, it isn't. You are proposing a Victorian prison system, on the grounds that the worst criminals don't deserve to have basic needs met.

There are very good reasons why civilized societies don't treat convicted criminals the same way the were treated one hundred years ago. I mean, it's not like violent crime wasn't an issue for the Victorians.

Tabnabs

Sometimes the law is on your side when you tackle these "people"

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/man-cleared-grievous-bodily-harm-thieves