Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

highlydebased

Perhaps they want to aim it exclusively at leisure pax...

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Perhaps they want to aim it exclusively at leisure pax...

Many people I know would prefer to leave at 9am than at 12:15pm. I understood that the 9am departure is what separated UA from the other operators and kept them operating over the years.

knockon

JCX BXC wrote: »

Many people I know would prefer to leave at 9am than at 12:15pm. I understood that the 9am departure is what separated UA from the other operators and kept them operating over the years.

True. You can leave here st 9am and easily be in Manhattan by 12.30-1pm EST. I feel it’s not good. Seasonal is bad news on a Service 20 years plus. No need for an IRO (relief pilot on new timings) and US CBP goes to 1 shift - don’t know the in’s and outs of that one or how that effects the Airline in relation to costs.

Brennans Row

Walsh to address Shannon Chamber (Clare Champion)

One of the most influential figures in world aviation, Willie Walsh, chief executive of International Airlines Group (IAG) will visit Shannon next Friday to give the keynote address at Shannon Chamber’s President’s lunch in Dromoland Castle Hotel.

The event is being supported by GECAS in recognition of its 50th year legacy in aviation finance.

Brennans Row

Aer Lingus eyes 2m more transatlantic passengers by 2020 (Irish Times)
 
Aer Lingus will have at least 24 aircraft flying transatlantic routes every day from 2022 as it pursues plans to more than double this business, according to chief executive Stephen Kavanagh.

Mr Kavanagh indicated that the airline may also increase the number of flights on transatlantic services from Shannon Airport, from where it serves Boston and New York.

Would be happy if they just filled the January-March gap to JFK for a start.

JCX BXC

Interesting, would be nice to see Chicago filled again but I may be wishing too much here.

Shn99

The Clare Champion have ran an interesting article this afternoon...... http://clarechampion.ie/daa-accused-of-scuppering-new-route/

JCX BXC

The suggestion that there was a realistic prospect of a route to China from Shannon makes little sense, even less so that it would get priority over Dublin.

To be honest looks like Breen was looking frantically for something to get his name in the headlines, it looks completely like he pulled something out of mid air and started asking commercial entities to comment on it, knowing full well they wouldn't.

mdmix

JCX BXC wrote: »

To be honest looks like Breen was looking frantically for something to get his name in the headlines, it looks completely like he pulled something out of mid air and started asking commercial entities to comment on it, knowing full well they wouldn't.

shannon have made the DAA out to be the boogyman, it sounds like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon, to get his name out as you say.

on the whole china flights to shannon, i don't necessarily think its out of the question. we don't have the same cultural ties with the east as we do with the rest of the world, historically or in modern times. most Chinese people outside of the main trading hubs would probably never have heard of ireland not to mind dublin. the chinese middle class are a different type of traveller who generally go for sightseeing rather than cultural tours. if a chinese operator could sell the wild atlantic way on their end then i don't think it matters which airport they fly to, shannon or dublin.

i did a quick search on this chinese airport and although it is a large airport, its in one of the poorest regions of china.

JCX BXC

A route to China you'll be targeting mainly business travellers, not leisure travellers, most Chinese middle class as you say would never have heard of Ireland, however they won't have the money to travel here either.

You want the business travellers to arrive into a business hub, which sadly is almost exclusively Dublin.

snotboogie

JCX BXC wrote: »

A route to China you'll be targeting mainly business travellers, not leisure travellers, most Chinese middle class as you say would never have heard of Ireland, however they won't have the money to travel here either.

You want the business travellers to arrive into a business hub, which sadly is almost exclusively Dublin.

Chinese living and studying in Ireland would be a huge group as well. A Beijing route would be interesting and not as unrealistic as people here suggest, it's bizarre that it hasn't emerged in Dublin, Shannon could in theory pick up the slack there. Especially since the Hong Kong route is inconvenient for a lot of Northern China, which is where the vast majority of this generation of Chinese in Ireland are from.

Chinese tourists care about price and visas. The only way we can get any number of Chinese tourists into Ireland is through a visa agreement, ideally through visa free travel like New Zealand have. Being caught between Brexit and Schengen gives us a great opportunity to go for this. There is a general reticence to look East in Ireland (with the exception of food exporters and Universities) so I doubt anyone is looking seriously at this.

haro124

Delta introducing their domestic 757 to SNN-JFK

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/11/18/delta-eliminating-business-class-transatlantic-flights/

mdmix

JCX BXC wrote: »

A route to China you'll be targeting mainly business travellers, not leisure travellers, most Chinese middle class as you say would never have heard of Ireland, however they won't have the money to travel here either.

You want the business travellers to arrive into a business hub, which sadly is almost exclusively Dublin.

the business links just don't exist yet, even in dublin. i think the tourism market is more appropriate, hopefully business links will follow. plenty of wealth in china. imagine if ireland were able to get 1% of even the group tourism market.

http://news.travel168.net/20170203/43145.html


"It is estimated that Chinese travel agencies organized more than 50 million tourists to travel overseas, most of whom are follow the group in 2016. Among 122 million outbound tourists, group travelers account for 40%, and individuals are over 70 million accounting for 60%. Chinese tourists still endear to group travel, especially in second, third and fourth-tier cities and regions, but individual travel will be an irresistible main trend in near future."

Brennans Row

Shannon - Commercial Movements (IAA)

|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Sept|Oct|Nov|Dec|Total
2015|1,253|1,026|1,277|1,454|1,725|2,169|2,058|1,728|1,780|1,645|1,283|1,312|18,710
2016|1,222|1,128|1,390|1,488|1,807|2,031|2,032|1,834|1,839|1,698|1,353|1,327|19,149
2017|1,291|1,215|1,429|1,446|1,776|1,975|1,949|1,885|1,778|1,796|||
Change|+5.6%|+7.7%|+2.8%|-2.8%|-1.7%|-2.8%|-4.1%|+2.8%|-3.3%|+5.8%|||

Source for October is ClareFM

JCX BXC

haro124 wrote: »

Delta introducing their domestic 757 to SNN-JFK

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/11/18/delta-eliminating-business-class-transatlantic-flights/

Should be an increase in capacity, and while the delta premium product is one of the better ones you'll still have those products on United and Aer Lingus.

Brennans Row

There was 166,105 passengers recorded for the month of September, down -1.7%.

The yearly total up to September stands at 1,360,579 passengers, down -1.2%.

Source Anna Aero Databases.

JCX BXC

Brennans Row wrote: »

There was 166,105 passengers recorded for the month of September, down -1.7%.

The yearly total up to September stands at 1,360,579 passengers, down -1.2%.

Source Anna Aero Databases.

With guarenteed further drops in NOV/DEC I can't see any hope of overall growth for 2017.

Hopefully we'll move on to bigger and better things.....for 2019?

Balf

JCX BXC wrote: »

Hopefully we'll move on to bigger and better things.....for 2019?

Hopefully, but I can't say the statements coming out of Shannon Group inspire much confidence. Specifically

http://www.clare.fm/news/shannon-airport-not-satisfied-governments-national-planning-framework/

The CEO of Shannon Group is hitting out at the government’s National Planning Framework for ‘being silent’ on all airports except Dublin.

In fact, the Planning Framework makes plenty of references to the importance of all airports, such as this one on page 134

http://npf.ie/draft-of-ireland-2040/

the main airports including Dublin, Cork, Shannon and Knock together with smaller regional airports are a key infrastructure for national and regional development.

There's other references to airports in general and Shannon in particular, so the document certainly isn't silent.

What do Shannon Group expect? That someone else will just send them business? Do they not understand that promoting the airport is primarily their responsibility?

Brennans Row

Balf wrote: »

In fact, the Planning Framework makes plenty of references to the importance of all airports, such as this one on page 134

http://npf.ie/draft-of-ireland-2040/

the main airports including Dublin, Cork, Shannon and Knock together with smaller regional airports are a key infrastructure for national and regional development.

Unfortunately it’s a meaningless sentence since Dublin Airport’s % share of the Irish market has grown to around 85% and rising.

It then goes on to list three points which are Dublin centred.

Airports

* The development of additional runway and
terminal facilities such as the second runway
for Dublin Airport for which planning permission
has been approved.

* Enhancing land-side access and particularly
in public transport terms such as through the
Metro-North project in Dublin.

* Careful land-use management of land side
areas to focus on the current and future needs
of the airports.

The only item I found regarding the development of Shannon was probably the inclusion of the Limerick–Shannon bus service into the Limerick city’s bus network. :rolleyes:

Key future growth enablers for Limerick include:

Provision of a Citywide public transport
network, with enhanced accessibility from the
City Centre to the National Technological Park,
UL and Shannon Airport.

In fairness to Shannon Airport’s management they were probably irked by the lack of substance in the national plan, because . . .

• There was no mention of developing a pre-clearance air freight hub to the U.S. at Shannon.
• Nor a mention of developing the existing pre-clearance for civil airlines to the U.S. at Shannon.
• Nor a mention of developing the existing pre-clearance for business jets to the U.S. at Shannon.
• Nor a mention of developing the existing concentration of MRO facilities at Shannon.

However the government gives special attention for a Dublin-Belfast economic corridor in the national plan, which will lead to more economic imbalance in the east to the detriment of the west.

The Dublin to Belfast Corridor is the largest
economic agglomeration on the island of Ireland,
with the cities and towns along the corridor
home to a population of around 2 million people,
exclusive of wider catchments. The corridor
links the two largest cities on the island by high
capacity road and national rail links and plays a
critical role in supporting economic growth and
competitiveness.

The corridor is also the national entry point to the
island through its airports and ports. Three major
airports - Dublin Airport, Belfast International
Airport and Belfast City Airport - collectively manage
over 35 million passengers each year and this is
set to continue to rise.

Balf

Brennans Row wrote: »

Unfortunately it’s a meaningless sentence since Dublin Airport’s % share of the Irish market has grown to around 85% and rising.

Do bear in mind that the Shannon Group comment was that the plan was "silent" on Shannon.

We could argue the toss over whether the plan should say more about Shannon. But it certainly does include quite a lot of material about the Shannon region and the airport. So can we agree the "silent" comment is wrong.

As to the growth of Dublin, I'd ask again what the Shannon Group expectation is. Is their demand that daa should land some deals for Shannon? What is it that Shannon expects the Plan to say?

Just to be clear, I'm not responding to your general points on the planning framework, as I'd fear that would detail the thread. I'm simply pointing out that it is factually wrong to say the framework is silent about Shannon. Shannon Group comments on this and other recent statements seem to be clutching at straws to distract from the fact that they are independent and are perfectly free to promote and develop the airport. Nothing in the national plan obstructs the airport. And parts of the framework acknowledge the airport's role in regional development.

JCX BXC

Last United flight until March took off 2hrs 30mins ago.

Brennans Row

Balf wrote: »

Do bear in mind that the Shannon Group comment was that the plan was "silent" on Shannon.

We could argue the toss over whether the plan should say more about Shannon. But it certainly does include quite a lot of material about the Shannon region and the airport. So can we agree the "silent" comment is wrong.

Ah come on, literally speaking, Matthew Thomas was emphasizing the fact that there is nothing planned in the government’s “National Planning Framework 2040” for Shannon Airport or for Cork and Knock Airports for that matter too.

There was not even a mention of Shannon’s plans to develop an International Aviation Services Centre.

The five references of Shannon Airport in the NPF 2040 were either informational or just Dublin government lip service regarding the importance of regional development.

Balf

Brennans Row wrote: »

Ah come on, literally speaking, Matthew Thomas was emphasizing the fact that there is nothing planned in the government’s “National Planning Framework 2040” for Shannon Airport or for Cork and Knock Airports for that matter too.

There was not even a mention of Shannon’s plans to develop an International Aviation Services Centre.

The five references of Shannon Airport in the NPF 2040 were either informational or just Dublin government lip service regarding the importance of regional development.

He's hugely overstating his case. He admits himself that the airport has a capacity for five million passengers, and he's not attracting anything like the colour of that. The level of coverage in the framework is perfectly reasonable, particularly as national aviation policy similarly gives promenance to Shannon.

We've just had the M17 opened at a cost of half a billion, with a commitment to the M20 next. That's not consistent with this picture of Shannon being held back by lack of government support. It's more that the independent Shannon management are failing to deliver.

Again, what do they expect the plan to say? Are they demanding that the daa take over again? What?

Brennans Row

Balf wrote: »

He's hugely overstating his case.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Balf wrote: »

He admits himself that the airport has a capacity for five million passengers, and he's not attracting anything like the colour of that.

If you are going to take the trouble of linking stuff to back up your arguments then it might be worthwhile if you read and listen to them first as he distinctly said on ClareFM that Shannon has a capacity of 4.5 million passengers.

Balf wrote: »

The level of coverage in the framework is perfectly reasonable,

That would reflect a Dublin view.

Balf wrote: »

. . . particularly as national aviation policy similarly gives promenance to Shannon.

But we are discussing the “National Planning Framework 2040” here.

Balf wrote: »

We've just had the M17 opened at a cost of half a billion, with a commitment to the M20 next. That's not consistent with this picture of Shannon being held back by lack of government support.

The M18 Gort to M17 Tuam motorway project would have fallen under a "National Development Plan circa 2010". It is finally finished after tenders went out 10 years ago to construct it and you could add another decade to it regarding the decision and planning stages. There was no mention of the M20 by name in the “National Planning Framework 2040”.

Balf wrote: »

It's more that the independent Shannon management are failing to deliver.

Their only one failure in my opinion was that they were not able to persuade Michael O'Leary from him switching his Shannon-Liverpool route to Manchester, which had negative consequences for the Aer Lingus Regional base at Shannon.

Balf wrote: »

Again, what do they expect the plan to say?

I thought I had answered that twice above.

Balf wrote: »

Are they demanding that the daa take over again? What?

You are not starting to troll now?

JCX BXC

Brennans Row wrote: »

Their only one failure in my opinion was that they were not able to persuade Michael O'Leary from him switching his Shannon-Liverpool route to Manchester, which had negative consequences for the Aer Lingus Regional base at Shannon.

Their only failure?

Giving ryanair the sweetheart deal in the first place was a major failure!

Ryanair wanted Stobart out, they didn't do it for the craic, there was a reason why they went from 7x weekly to 4x weekly, leaving Shannon with a nowhere near comparable level of connectivity. The move destroyed UK connectivity, as there was a stage when the only destination outside of London was Manchester!

Poorly researched advertising on Facebook, not good.

Poor reviews of food post security, not good.

Loss of Chicago and the winter New York, the latter possibly contributed by allowing Norwegian come in and even endorsing their application!

Loss of Berlin/Memmingen/Bristol/Nice/Paris/Poitiers/Nantes.

All these losses at a time when all airports in Ireland (except Donegal) are growing, to be honest I'd consider the late management having one or two larger failures.

Shn99

JCX BXC wrote: »

Their only failure?

Giving ryanair the sweetheart deal in the first place was a major failure!

Ryanair wanted Stobart out, they didn't do it for the craic, there was a reason why they went from 7x weekly to 4x weekly, leaving Shannon with a nowhere near comparable level of connectivity. The move destroyed UK connectivity, as there was a stage when the only destination outside of London was Manchester!

Poorly researched advertising on Facebook, not good.

Poor reviews of food post security, not good.

Loss of Chicago and the winter New York, the latter possibly contributed by allowing Norwegian come in and even endorsing their application!

Loss of Berlin/Memmingen/Bristol/Nice/Paris/Poitiers/Nantes.

All these losses at a time when all airports in Ireland (except Donegal) are growing, to be honest I'd consider the late management having one or two larger failures.

Best thing to happen in the past few years was the erection of the statue in the check in hall!

Brennans Row

JCX BXC wrote: »

Their only failure?

Ryanair wanted Stobart out, they didn't do it for the craic, there was a reason why they went from 7x weekly to 4x weekly, leaving Shannon with a nowhere near comparable level of connectivity. The move destroyed UK connectivity, as there was a stage when the only destination outside of London was Manchester

You are more or less repeating what I said.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Giving ryanair the sweetheart deal in the first place was a major failure!

. . . . . . .

Loss of Berlin/Memmingen/. . . /Nice/Paris/Poitiers/Nantes.

There is a contradiction in your critic there.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Poorly researched advertising on Facebook, not good.

Don't know about that but an internet advertisement appeared with your post for Shannon Airport. (See attachment)

JCX BXC wrote: »

Loss of Chicago and the winter New York, the latter possibly contributed by allowing Norwegian come in and even endorsing their application!

Norwegian don't fly to Chicago or Newark from Shannon . . . . otherwise its a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Balf

Brennans Row wrote: »

I thought I had answered that twice above.

I don't see where it's answered. Your posts are actually ranging from evasive to pedantic.

The point is Shannon Group could double passenger traffic and still have spare capacity. There is no infrastructural constraint on the airport. It's just silly to try to sidestep that point by saying "He said four million and a half, not five". That's not addressing the point at all.

JCX BXC

Brennans Row wrote: »

You are more or less repeating what I said.

My point was there was no stopping Ryanair at that stage, the dominance was there already, negotiation cannot happen, hence I don't even blame the management fully for this. Foresight would have helped massively here though!

There is a contradiction in your critic there.

Not exactly, they got the routes yet couldn't keep them. So overall what was achieved? A few sun routes at the expense of much connectivity to the UK and a route to France. As well as the loss of jobs from the Stobart base closing.

Don't know about that but an internet advertisement appeared with your post for Shannon Airport. (See attachment)

I was on about Facebook, with incorrect pricing appearing on those posts. It's like that the person posting has no grasp of how expensive these flights should be, and hence does not notice the issue when lazily posting an incorrect fare of something like $568 one way, in the case of the new Air Canada route flagged a few pages back by another user (Also at least convert it to Euro! Very few in Ireland have a grasp of how much Canadian dollars costs in comparison to the local currency).

Norwegian don't fly to Chicago or Newark from Shannon . . . . otherwise its a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Was on specifically about New York, and if you're suggesting that Stewart would have no affect on Newark that would be extremely pedantic of you.

They've undermined the New York and Boston routes of existing airlines, which are already struggling in winter season. I think we're lucky that BOS is staying year round.

I'm only focusing on the negatives here, gains like Air Canada to Toronto are great so I'm not saying that the airport management are completely useless, however the fact that they have recently spent so much time blaming others is very concerning for anyone who has an interest in seeing the airport grow. It does not inspire confidence into its future.

I'll briefly touch on the lack of mention of Shannon in governmental development plans, I think thats well representative of all things outside the pale and not a great surprise, disappointing but it's not causing the airports downfall, very simple evidence for this is seeing how Cork, Knock and Kerry are growing so successfully.

marno21

Couple of points from personal observation.

1. Transatlantic losses: I think Norwegian have had little effect on transatlantic pax of Aer Lingus, United, American or Delta. I've noticed quite a lot of younger people, 18-25 bracket, using Norwegian to PVD/SWF instead of flying to somewhere in Europe, due to the low fare affordability. These are people who, unless D8 were offering the low fares, would've gone somwhere in Europe. This market seems to be what Norwegian are chasing, but this market is seasonal. Business travellers seem to remain with Aer Lingus. The lack of any reduction in the JFK/BOS services with Norwegian seems to back this up. I think United's services were doomed anyway as 757s are starting to get rarer and rarer and United seem to be deploying them on transcontinental routes. Shannon aren't the only airport with 757 service reductions from United.

2. Ryanair: I think at this stage it would be worthwhile for Shannon to get into bed with Ryanair to be honest. I can't see where the growth is going to come from, and if people from the midwest are willing to flock to Dublin to fly Ryanair I don't see why people in Shannon's greater catchment area wouldn't flock to Shannon for Ryanair flights. If people are willing to use Memmingen, Hahn, Beauvais, Treviso etc for lower fares I don't see what the issue with using Shannon is, especially given the large market around Shannon that seems to blindly flock to Dublin. This also leads to my next point..

3. Access: The main force behind increased access to Shannon Airport at present is Sean Kyne wanting to create a high capacity rail link between Shannon and Knock Airports. This would indicate that Shannon is well served with public transport? There are 50 return buses from UL to Dublin Airport every day, all highly marketed. This is a journey time of betwen 2 and 3 hours, traffic dependent. There are 0 direct buses from UL to Shannon Airport, a journey time of half an hour or so.

The Stobart flights to Edinburgh and Birmingham are expensive compared to Ryanair and don't contribute many passengers to the airport. The AT76's have 1/3rd or so the capacity of a Ryanair plane and are slower and bumpier. Paying at least 4x the price to fly on a ATR with a longer and bumpier flight time isn't as appealing. In fact flying to Manchester with Ryanair and getting the train to Birmingham would be better.