Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

Berty

Shannon on short haul seasonal routes suffers as well with Passenger numbers. I always would see, on social media, people cheering when a twice weekly route to Ibiza was released because they could get 1 holiday a year and shocked then when they find that the route(not just Ibiza) might be pulled. "Wait, how will I get my cheap holiday once a year" completely misunderstanding that a business is not suistanable without frequent passengers flying.

If EI doesn't return with the LHR route then surely somebody else could get the route to LHR. Dublin has/had a BA flight(think it was pulled recently but I've flown on it a few times) and seeing as a BA (business class flight) did stop in SNN for transatlantic refueling(if that is the reason) then they could use SNN for other flights, they would just need a contractor agreement for ground services/check in etc.

Maybe there could be a route to London City Airport instead, any airline? I've no draw to LHR myself, much of a muchness because I still get the Tube(avoiding the express) so Stanstead of Gatwick is fine by me as well(as the cost of the trains plus the flights is nearly always cheaper by miles than Aer Lingus). London City would just be nearer.

golfball37

LCY is nearer but it’s much of a muchness getting to the sites timewise. You’d get to the City (Bank) in about 25mins on the dlr. Then you can tube it across in about 7-10 mins. A taxi would take 40 mins.

JamesBond2010

=Berty;
If EI doesn't return with the LHR route then surely somebody else could get the route to LHR. Dublin has/had a BA flight(think it was pulled recently but I've flown on it a few times) and seeing as a BA (business class flight) did stop in SNN for transatlantic refueling(if that is the reason) then they could use SNN for other flights, they would just need a contractor agreement for ground services/check in etc.
.

Ba was only for the buisness pre-clearance thats what it was..Ba not using that plane anymore so that why its gone out the window.

JCX BXC

BA1/3 was a little more complex. The runway at LCY is very short and with a steep approach angle, meaning only certain aircraft can use it. The A318 used by British Airways fulfilled this criteria when used in a 32 business configuration, but due to the short runway, could not hold enough fuel to take it to JFK. Hence, they stopped in Shannon, refuelled and took advantage of USPC. The return flight was direct.

snotboogie

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I've no particular opinion on the structure, but is it fair to say the expectation was that Shannon would boom once independence was granted? There was a genuine belief by many that there was untapped potential just waiting to be released. And that hasn't happened.

The comparison is being made to Cork, which remained under DAA management.

Everyone's traffic collapsed after 2008. In Dublin, passenger numbers fell from over 23 million in 2008 to 18 million in 2010. In Pre Covid 2019 Dublin was serving nearly 33 million; 10 million more than its previous peak - the increase is more than Cork and Shannon combined have ever served, so that's just new business - not business taken from anyone else in any meaningful sense.

Shannon traffic collapsed from a peak of 3.6 million in 2007 (under DAA managment - but I guess we'll all know the partial stopover regime was still in place) to 1.4 million in 2012. It has never reached 2 million passengers in eight years of independent management.

Cork traffic, under DAA, has never fallen below 2 million passengers. Cork (pre Covid) serves nearly a million more passengers than Shannon.

Now, clearly the stopover distortion has a relevance. And if Shannon was still under DAA management, and serving the same number of passengers as Cork, you can be sure people would be talking about how Dublin was holding them back. But the facts suggest otherwise.

Can I say, I think politicians are making unrealistic statements as if new routes can, in some way, be diverted from Dublin to Shannon. That's a yearning for the old stopover regime - which just can't be done again. You simply can't require an airline to (say) land half its new flights in Shannon. Nonsense to be talking as if you can.

Shannon and Cork were hit with the double whammy of the recession and the completion of the M7 and M8. Cheap buses ferrying passengers to cheap flights in Dublin in a reasonable time frame was and is a major drawback for both airports.

JamesBond2010

JCX BXC wrote: »

BA1/3 was a little more complex. The runway at LCY is very short and with a steep approach angle, meaning only certain aircraft can use it. The A318 used by British Airways fulfilled this criteria when used in a 32 business configuration, but due to the short runway, could not hold enough fuel to take it to JFK. Hence, they stopped in Shannon, refuelled and took advantage of USPC. The return flight was direct.

i was doing the short version:D:D:D

Cosmo Kramer

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I've no particular opinion on the structure, but is it fair to say the expectation was that Shannon would boom once independence was granted? There was a genuine belief by many that there was untapped potential just waiting to be released. And that hasn't happened.

There was, but it was more delusion than expectation to be honest. For years it was easy to blame all the airport's problems on the DAA rather than look at the actual issues and realign expectations to a more realistic level. A bit like the Brits and the EU I suppose.

Now that the separation hasn't worked there's a similar delusion that rejoining the DAA will somehow solve everything and being back the glory days. Anything to avoid accepting the reality of the situation it seems.

JCX BXC

I ask again, how exactly had separation not worked?

Clareman

My take on it is that reverting to the DAA will save the jobs of the people at risk but will mean that Shannon will be third priority when it comes to airports for the group, after Dublin and Cork which can't have a positive impact on the airport/region.

Brennans Row

The covid-19 reality check for those wishing to revert to the DAA is . . .

DAA estimates the pandemic will cost it €160m this year alone even after 1,000 redundancies (Focus on Aerospace & Aviation August 2020).

hobie14

Just noticed a Stansted to Cork flight diverting to SNN due to weather ....

Well at least someone loves us .....:)

Eric Cartman

Clareman wrote: »

My take on it is that reverting to the DAA will save the jobs of the people at risk but will mean that Shannon will be third priority when it comes to airports for the group, after Dublin and Cork which can't have a positive impact on the airport/region.

when the dust settles on covid, combined with impending recession and environmental concerns, theres a fair amount of chance that there will be a lot less trans Atlantic flights for every operator. Airlines are already moving more towards hub and spoke to increase numbers on larger planes for longer routes,

we could very quickly end up in a future where Shannon and cork are flying to Dublin, Heathrow, Charles degaul, and Munich to hub out to the rest of the world and that would be it.

Berty

If that was the case about Hubs then the agreement between Aer Lingus and United now instead of Jetblue means that why bother with Aer Lingus to the USA for an onward connection when United would surely, through EWR, offer a better/cheaper service. Would currently apply to Dublin but in the future, IF United return apply to Shannon as well.

If I had to fly from SNN-DUB-EWR-Onwards then I would prefer to drive to Dublin rather than connect(price dependent). Back in 2005 I remember flying back from Tampa to JFK to Dublin and to Shannon which was really annoying.

Eric Cartman

Berty wrote: »

If that was the case about Hubs then the agreement between Aer Lingus and United now instead of Jetblue means that why bother with Aer Lingus to the USA for an onward connection when United would surely, through EWR, offer a better/cheaper service. Would currently apply to Dublin but in the future, IF United return apply to Shannon as well.

If I had to fly from SNN-DUB-EWR-Onwards then I would prefer to drive to Dublin rather than connect(price dependent). Back in 2005 I remember flying back from Tampa to JFK to Dublin and to Shannon which was really annoying.

therein lies the rub, I remember when I was a kid the stop at Shannon on the way back / to the states was really annoying, then they eliminated it and here we are facing a position where there probably isn't enough traffic to sustain Dublin to New York / Florida and Shannon to the same.

with the motorway network now its quite hard to justify the connecting flight from either Shannon or cork to Dublin when you can just hop in the car.

hobie14

Amersterdam to Cork now on the way in to SNN.....someone else loves us:)

hobie14

And now Luton - Cork on the way in to SNN.....

JamesBond2010

And you will have a lot more while the wind is still strong.

Masala

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

And you will have a lot more while the wind is still strong.

Why dont they use Kerry.... its closer and probably less busy??

Cosmo Kramer

JCX BXC wrote: »

I ask again, how exactly had separation not worked?

Here's an Irish Times quote from December 2012 that may help to answer this question.

"Rose Hynes, chairwoman of the aviation business development task force that advised the Government, said the plan was based around increasing air passenger traffic at Shannon to 2.5 million a year within five years from a current level of about 1.5 million".

Numbers have been nowhere near that, not even reaching 2 million in the best year since 2012.

However, in terms of a more realistic goal of preventing further passenger number decline (ignoring the 2020 numbers which are an outlier for all airports), you could argue that separation has been OK. The problem is that so many at Shannon continue to believe that the glory days of 2.5 million passengers are just around the corner, if somehow things were just done differently than the way they are done now.

It's nonsense of course, there is no longer a market in the Midwest for an airport of that size for a number of reasons, but the delusion continues for many unfortunately.

johnjoeR

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Here's an Irish Times quote from December 2012 that may help to answer this question.

"Rose Hynes, chairwoman of the aviation business development task force that advised the Government, said the plan was based around increasing air passenger traffic at Shannon to 2.5 million a year within five years from a current level of about 1.5 million".

Numbers have been nowhere near that, not even reaching 2 million in the best year since 2012.

However, in terms of a more realistic goal of preventing further passenger number decline (ignoring the 2020 numbers which are an outlier for all airports), you could argue that separation has been OK. The problem is that so many at Shannon continue to believe that the glory days of 2.5 million passengers are just around the corner, if somehow things were just done differently than the way they are done now.

It's nonsense of course, there is no longer a market in the Midwest for an airport of that size for a number of reasons, but the delusion continues for many unfortunately.

Easy targets at this time imo for posters and politicians alike. Shannon spent most of its existence under Dublins control and for 50 years politicians have been screaming to unleash the dublin shackles every time there was a crisis in aviation. And now Shannon is on its own in the middle of the biggest ever crisis and some say we should go back. Laughable! Timmy Dooley calls for a new direction but wont tell what direction that might be. He talks of Dublins dominance in the market but thinks we would be better if controlled by them again?? If Shannon needs a bailout to stay alive due to this crisis it will get it regardless of its relationship with the DAA. Meanwhile give the Shannon group a break.

Brennans Row

Although this break down of the figures are only available up to 2018 but they do reveal that mainland Europe was not performing.

Typically some of those routes in the deal made by Neil Pakey with Ryanair have since moved elsewhere once the startup supports ended.

This deal also ruined the Aer Lingus Regional routes at that time operating from its base at Shannon to Britain.

They were to feed into the transatlantic routes, like the daily three flights to Manchester.

Although the figures dropped last year due to the Boeing Max issues on the transatlantic route and the ending of the daily transit route from Kuwait to New York.

The new aircraft that Aer Lingus were basing this year in Shannon to upgrade the New York, Boston and Heathrow routes and the new flights to Paris and Barcelona along with Ryanairs new service to Vienna and the continuing Lufthansa's flight from Frankfurt were to boast numbers too.

Sadly the Boeing Max issues are still not fixed.

Although growth has been slow but it has been quality orientated which seems to be the strategy of the airport management now rather stacking up the numbers in an unsustainable fashion.

Brennans Row

Another wide bodied aircraft (QATAR B747) leaving from the new painting hangar. :cool:

tv221

Rose Hynes no longer chairman.

http://www.clare.fm/news/new-chairman-appointed-shannon-group-board/

golfball37

tv221 wrote: »

Rose Hynes no longer chairman.

http://www.clare.fm/news/new-chairman-appointed-shannon-group-board/

Better late than never I suppose

Cosmo Kramer

I thought she'd want to stick around to see through her plan to get 2.5 million passengers a year into the airport.

JamesBond2010

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I thought she'd want to stick around to see through her plan to get 2.5 million passengers a year into the airport.

she is gone off to make sure irish water bill u for the water :D:D:D:D

JCX BXC

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I thought she'd want to stick around to see through her plan to get 2.5 million passengers a year into the airport.

Unrealistic expectation from the start. Not a sign of separation not working, but rather unrealistic expectations, if they ever honestly believed it would happen.

Kramer

tv221 wrote: »

Rose Hynes no longer chairman.

http://www.clare.fm/news/new-chairman-appointed-shannon-group-board/

She'll have more time for golfing now, with big phil .

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/lucinda-creighton-calls-for-inquiry-into-hogan-meetings-with Bord Gáis Éireann chairwoman Rose Hynes about the establishment of Irish Water

Berty

Reports that UK airports have requested use of the Aer Lingus Transatlantic Jets from Shannon, albeit temporarily but not good for SNN and the government decisions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-may-move-transatlantic-services-from-shannon-to-the-uk-1.4342317

JamesBond2010

Berty wrote: »

Reports that UK airports have requested use of the Aer Lingus Transatlantic Jets from Shannon, albeit temporarily but not good for SNN and the government decisions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-may-move-transatlantic-services-from-shannon-to-the-uk-1.4342317

once they be gone, they be gone they wont come back.