Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

Brennans Row

Aer Lingus cuts highlight urgent need for a restart plan for Irish aviation (Irish Times)

Aer Lingus’s decision to permanently close its crew base in Shannon Airport, resulting in up to 81 redundancies, and to temporarily lay off ground staff there and employees in Cork Airport between September and November is a stark reminder of the state of the aviation industry right now and the lack of a restart plan from the Government.

The Aer Lingus decision is clearly a blow to the west of Ireland and no doubt questions will be asked as to why conditions weren’t attached to the €150 million loan given to Aer Lingus by the State around the turn of the year.

Of course, there could be other factors at play. Aer Lingus has been grumbling about its cost base in Shannon for many years and the pandemic provides good cover to tackle the unions on this issue.

Brian Bowden, Aer Lingus chief people officer, told Tánaiste Leo Varadkar in a notice of the likely job losses that Shannon had been inefficient and out of line with the market for a significant period of time.

And yet, in February 2020, Aer Lingus announced the introduction of a new Shannon-based aircraft and brought forward by one month the return of its seasonal service to JFK in New York.

In addition, new services to Barcelona and Paris-Charles de Gaulle were announced for Shannon, which would have resulted in Aer Lingus’s capacity there growing by 20 per cent.

“We are delighted to demonstrate our continued commitment to Shannon Airport and the wider region,” Aer Lingus’s then chief corporate affairs officer Donal Moriarty said at the time.

Flight crewing

Then the pandemic hit. And 15 months later, Aer Lingus is not currently flying from Shannon and hasn’t since March of last year. It lost more than €1.1 million a day in the first quarter of this year. The airline is being cagey about how flights will be crewed whenever it decides to resume flights from the Co Clare airport.

Before Covid, it was operating transatlantic services from Shannon (for most but not all of the year) and a regular service to Heathrow in London, a prime asset for the region that was lost in 2007 but restarted in 2009.

Will it resume these flights? What might happen to the prized Heathrow slots?

Aer Lingus also has a new chief executive, with Lynne Embleton, formerly of IAG cargo, taking on the role last year, although she has yet to move to Ireland. And it recently launched transatlantic services out of Manchester, a clear signal that its focus is not just on the island of Ireland.

RocketRaccoon

For anyone interested, Ryanair will be restarting their flights on June 1st. 20 per week to begin with.

mdmix

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

For anyone interested, Ryanair will be restarting their flights on June 1st. 20 per week to begin with.

gov.ie are advising all passengers must quarantine on return, regardless. Does anyone have any idea if exemptions are planned?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b4020-travelling-to-ireland-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

JamesBond2010

Brennans Row wrote: »

Aer Lingus CEO says there is no strategic intent to reduce connectivity (RTE)

The Chief Executive of Aer Lingus has told the Minister for Transport that there is no strategic intent to reduce connectivity at either Cork or Shannon airports.

This is despite yesterday's decision by the airline to close its cabin crew base in Shannon and lay-off cabin crew and ground handling staff in Cork from September to November.

Eamon Ryan and Junior Transport Minister Hildegarde Naughton met the airline's new CEO, Lynne Embleton today to discuss the developments.

The ministers also met CEO of Shannon Group, Mary Considine, and CEO of Cork Airport, Niall McCarthy, while Minister Naughton also met unions and employer representative groups today.

bla bla bla more bull**** always the same all talk & no action, they dont give a **** as along as they are paid.

Brennans Row

Shannon-Heathrow Connectivity

The Aer Lingus announcement will cast serious doubts over the retention of early morning and late evening flights to Heathrow which are essential to business connectivity (Michael McNamara TD).

Michael McNamara TD says that continued lockdown made Shannon a "cold place" for aviation, leading to Aer Lingus job losses. (GriptMedia)

Joint Committee on Transport and Communications – The challenges facing the International Aviation Sector

Here the full recording . . . .

Brennans Row

Aviation interests let fly at Government over state of industry and lack of recovery plan (Irish Times)

Blame for Aer Lingus closure at Shannon and the parlous state of the airline lies at Government’s doorstep.

Barry O'Halloran’s long article exposes that Ireland does not have a plan for the aviation sector to exit this Covid-19 pandemic.

ctlsleh

Scar001 wrote: »

Is Michael McNamara the only Clare TD with a voice in the Dail ??
I've heard feck all from the other three since they've been elected.

I have emailed all of them, I would encourage others to do the same. I have outlined not only the personal
Impact which will likely be the requirement to move to Cork or Dublin, but also the impact on the wider economy and strategy for the region as a whole, or lack thereof

Cosmo Kramer

They can't have it both ways. All of your other TDs are either part of a government that brought in ridiculously draconian travel restrictions or part of an opposition that goaded them into doing it. This is the outcome - they've given EI the opening they've been looking for for years to get themselves out of SNN and EI have jumped at the chance.

It can't be a case of no travel for anyone but another massive bailout to keep the good times rolling down in Shannon. This is the real world and the money is needed elsewhere now. Your TDs have created this situation and are in no position to demand anything at this point beyond keeping the lights on so that the airport can rebuild at a more appropriate scale for a regional airport once the pandemic is over.

RocketRaccoon

ctlsleh wrote: »

I have emailed all of them, I would encourage others to do the same. I have outlined not only the personal
Impact which will likely be the requirement to move to Cork or Dublin, but also the impact on the wider economy and strategy for the region as a whole, or lack thereof

I admire your moxy but its an absolute waste of time.

Aer Lingus have less than zero interest in Shannon, covid was the perfect opportunity for them to pull out of Shannon. Please take the word of me and other airport workers on this.

What do people expect here? Email tds in the hope someone in power can force Aer Lingus to stay where they don't want to be? What's the end game on this? They're gone, good riddance to them. Of course I feel bad for the many staff members I have gotten to know over the years but as a company, good luck.

Now the people in power should open discussions with Michael OLeary, ask him what he wants and let him in to the airport properly and get the whole place off its knees. Couple that with the American carriers and the airport would be in a much better place than it has been in the last few years.

Brennans Row

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

. . . They're gone, good riddance to them. . . .

. . . . . Now the people in power should open discussions with Michael OLeary, ask him what he wants and let him in to the airport properly and get the whole place off its knees. . . .

Bitterness won’t solve anything.

Paying Ryanair to fly from Shannon is not sustainable.

Shannon will have to hit the reset button and work aggressively harder to keep Aer Lingus flying from here eventhough the base will be gone for now.

finbarrk

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

It really isn't/wasn't.

I’m curious how you come to that conclusion. In my opinion, it’s the vital route

Brennans Row

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1395483873375567876

RocketRaccoon

Brennans Row wrote: »

Bitterness won’t solve anything.

Paying Ryanair to fly from Shannon is not sustainable.

Shannon will have to hit the reset button and work aggressively harder to keep Aer Lingus flying from here eventhough the base will be gone for now.

It's not bitterness at all, I have zero attachment to Aer Lingus. Over the years I've seen the complete contempt they hold Shannon in and people fawning over them and the handful of overpriced routes they provide just doesn't make sense to me. They pulled the LHR route years ago and for some reason that was forgotten about, that was them showing their hand in regards to their feelings on Shannon.

RocketRaccoon

finbarrk wrote: »

I’m curious how you come to that conclusion. In my opinion, it’s the vital route

Meh, I've had this discussion here before with a poster(I can't remember their username). I was told the average Aer Lingus passenger spends more in the airport than a Ryanair one so it's more important to the airport. Zero evidence of that of course but that didn't stop they hyperbole being pushed by that particular poster.

I've worked in the airport since 2006 up until covid struck last year, I've seen everything over the years. Trust me when I say that a few routes to Heathrow aren't what have kept the doors open in Shannon.

Brennans Row

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

It's not bitterness at all, I have zero attachment to Aer Lingus. Over the years I've seen the complete contempt they hold Shannon in and people fawning over them and the handful of overpriced routes they provide just doesn't make sense to me. They pulled the LHR route years ago and for some reason that was forgotten about, that was them showing their hand in regards to their feelings on Shannon.

According to Willie Walsh, the Aer Lingus Heathrow route is very profitable for them.

14 Months ago they were about to deploy new aircraft for their Transatlantic routes and launch two new routes to Paris and Barcelona.

If they still intend to fly from Shannon then let us not throw the baby out with bath water.

RocketRaccoon

Brennans Row wrote: »

According to Willie Walsh, the Aer Lingus Heathrow route is very profitable for them.

14 Months ago they were about to deploy new aircraft for their Transatlantic routes and launch two new routes to Paris and Barcelona.

If they still intend to fly from Shannon then let us not throw the baby out with bath water.

I don't doubt the route is very profitable FOR THEM. Its the fact people laud it as the most important/profitable route for the airport I'll never understand.

For instance, a large US military aircraft brings in multiples of what the LHR EI does. This is a fact.

marno21

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I don't doubt the route is very profitable FOR THEM. Its the fact people laud it as the most important/profitable route for the airport I'll never understand.

For instance, a large US military aircraft brings in multiples of what the LHR EI does. This is a fact.

It's not just the airport though. The LHR connectivity is pivotal for companies and people in the area for connections. Same as LHR/AMS out of Cork. It's all connections and the odd London business trip.

JCX BXC

I don't agree that bending over for Ryanair yet again is the answer here, how many times has the airport had a sour divorce?

The latest time we did that was 2014, and while they didn't pull out horrifically as they did before, several routes were cut such as Paris, Berlin, Munich etc. They also chased out the Aer Lingus Regional base, taking with it 3 return flights a day to Manchester, 2 a day to Birmingham and 1 each to Bristol and Edinburgh, arguably doing more damage than benefit their arrival brought.

We were getting into a good place pre-pandemic, we had gained routes to Paris and Barcelona with Aer Lingus, A321's which would have made the US routes much more sustainable, Vienna with Ryanair, a 787 on the Philly route.

ctlsleh

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I admire your moxy but its an absolute waste of time.

Aer Lingus have less than zero interest in Shannon, covid was the perfect opportunity for them to pull out of Shannon. Please take the word of me and other airport workers on this.

What do people expect here? Email tds in the hope someone in power can force Aer Lingus to stay where they don't want to be? What's the end game on this? They're gone, good riddance to them. Of course I feel bad for the many staff members I have gotten to know over the years but as a company, good luck.

Now the people in power should open discussions with Michael OLeary, ask him what he wants and let him in to the airport properly and get the whole place off its knees. Couple that with the American carriers and the airport would be in a much better place than it has been in the last few years.

The point is, if you want FDI and investment in the region, you need connectivity. No connectivity, no investment in the region, companies will go to Dublin or Cork. People like myself that need to travel, will need to relocate. And the region and local businesses as a whole will suffer.

Nobody that has to travel to europe on a regular basis uses Ryanair, it’s just too difficult to connect, it’s so much easier to connect through Heathrow, so unless we get BA or someone else, businesses and people that rely on SNN connectivity will probably be looking elsewhere. Just like Aer Lingus being a commercial decision, businesses and individuals will do the same and pull out…….that’s unfortunate and for that reason, if TTDs don’t build a connectivity strategy for the region, it will continue to be left behind by Dublin, Cork and even Galway……for a region that was a leader for FDI 25 years ago, it’s a sad demise

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

It's not just the airport though. The LHR connectivity is pivotal for companies and people in the area for connections. Same as LHR/AMS out of Cork. It's all connections and the odd London business trip.

That's very much over egged. How does Galway get so much FDI without an international airport on its doorstep? Two hours to Dub is nothing for someone in the US.

The Shannon based US company I work for regularly sends staff via Dub to the US and vice versa because its cheaper.

Also before the pandemic, Ryanair had daily flights to Gatwick and Stansted. Heathrow isn't the be all and end all.

Cosmo Kramer

I would imagine the Heathrow route will probably survive in the end in some form though, especially if it was profitable to EI. The timings will probably have to change due to the loss of the base and the frequencies might drop but the route will be kept I expect.

I think people need to think more about what is a realistic size of passenger route network longer term for an airport that primarily serves Clare, most of Limerick, part of Tipperary and south County Galway, with only limited draw of outbound passengers from beyond these areas. For me it would be:

- A regular service to a major European hub airport (probably Heathrow)
- a decent network of UK routes - London (other than Heathrow), the Midlands, the north west, Scotland
- a few Eastern European routes mainly used by people from those countries who live in the mid west
- the usual smattering of Med and Canary Islands bucket and spade routes in the summer, with a couple operating year round
- a couple of European city break locations, most likely served by Ryanair
- a random charter or two bringing inbound tourists in the summer, maybe a Ryanair service for German tourists coming here.

Anything beyond that probably won't last more than a summer or two realistically. Transatlantic may return in some form in the short term, probably through United, but 10 years from now transatlantic operations at Shannon will probably be something that is only seen in history books if we're being honest. Dublin will serve the whole island in terms of direct long haul services, as it already pretty much does anyway.

For me Shannon management would be better served focusing on the above, which would probably bring a steady, sustainable passenger flow somewhere north of a million pax a year, rather than chasing after memories of more glorious days gone by, which are unlikely to ever return.

JamesBond2010

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I would imagine the Heathrow route will probably survive in the end in some form though, especially if it was profitable to EI. The timings will probably have to change due to the loss of the base and the frequencies might drop but the route will be kept I expect.

I think people need to think more about what is a realistic size of passenger route network longer term for an airport that primarily serves Clare, most of Limerick, part of Tipperary and south County Galway, with only limited draw of outbound passengers from beyond these areas. For me it would be:

- A regular service to a major European hub airport (probably Heathrow)
- a decent network of UK routes - London (other than Heathrow), the Midlands, the north west, Scotland
- a few Eastern European routes mainly used by people from those countries who live in the mid west
- the usual smattering of Med and Canary Islands bucket and spade routes in the summer, with a couple operating year round
- a couple of European city break locations, most likely served by Ryanair
- a random charter or two bringing inbound tourists in the summer, maybe a Ryanair service for German tourists coming here.

Anything beyond that probably won't last more than a summer or two realistically. Transatlantic may return in some form in the short term, probably through United, but 10 years from now transatlantic operations at Shannon will probably be something that is only seen in history books if we're being honest. Dublin will serve the whole island in terms of direct long haul services, as it already pretty much does anyway.

For me Shannon management would be better served focusing on the above, which would probably bring a steady, sustainable passenger flow somewhere north of a million pax a year, rather than chasing after memories of more glorious days gone by, which are unlikely to ever return.

You are right there but try tell that to management it is like telling a kid not to eat the sweets they never listen spend all the last Year chasing after Aer lingus & not thinking about other Airlines & look where it has got them now.A big waste of time.

RocketRaccoon

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

You are right there but try tell that to management it is like telling a kid not to eat the sweets they never listen spend all the last Year chasing after Aer lingus & not thinking about other Airlines & look where it has got them now.A big waste of time.

The idiotic politicians are the same. Save Aer Lingus at all costs while completely ignoring the fact they aren't the biggest fish in the pond.

Deagol

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I don't doubt the route is very profitable FOR THEM. Its the fact people laud it as the most important/profitable route for the airport I'll never understand.

For instance, a large US military aircraft brings in multiples of what the LHR EI does. This is a fact.

Any proof to back that up or is it hyperbole as you just accused someone else of?

And are there 2/3 flights a day 364 days a year of those flights??

You remind me of the pub land lord who drove his regular punters out in favour of the high spending but Friday / Saturday only young ones. Quickly realised his regulars spent multiples in 7 nights of what the kids spent in 1 or 2.

RocketRaccoon

Deagol wrote: »

Any proof to back that up or is it hyperbole as you just accused someone else of?

And are there 2/3 flights a day 364 days a year of those flights??

You remind me of the pub land lord who drove his regular punters out in favour of the high spending but Friday / Saturday only young ones. Quickly realised his regulars spent multiples in 7 nights of what the kids spent in 1 or 2.

I know the fees involved when aircraft land, take off, park up, fuelling cost and charges, handling fees etc. Obviously I won't be making them public knowledge.

It's simple fact that over the course of a regular month/year that there are much bigger, more valuable fish in Shannon than Aer Lingus.

You remind me of the poster who said because an EI business passenger buys an Irish times, a coffee and newspaper in the airport that those passengers have to be more valuable to the airport than your regular Ryanair punter.

Masala

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I know the fees involved when aircraft land, take off, park up, fuelling cost and charges, handling fees etc. Obviously I won't be making them public knowledge.

It's simple fact that over the course of a regular month/year that there are much bigger, more valuable fish in Shannon than Aer Lingus.

You remind me of the poster who said because an EI business passenger buys an Irish times, a coffee and newspaper in the airport that those passengers have to be more valuable to the airport than your regular Ryanair punter.

..... can't see how Ryanair flight can be as valuable to the airport as an Aer Lingus. They are NOT paying the same fees as Aer Lingus to start with.

As to what a Ryanair spends on site... thats open to debate.

RocketRaccoon

Masala wrote: »

..... can't see how Ryanair flight can be as valuable to the airport as an Aer Lingus. They are NOT paying the same fees as Aer Lingus to start with.

As to what a Ryanair spends on site... thats open to debate.

Just one example. Do you, or anyone else, think an EI passenger spends more in the airport than a group of lads heading off on a week long sun holiday? Or a group of lads going over to England to a match?

As I said, I worked in the airport for 14 years. There's not much I haven't seen in that time, I know what I'm talking about.

Deagol

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I know the fees involved when aircraft land, take off, park up, fuelling cost and charges, handling fees etc. Obviously I won't be making them public knowledge.

It's simple fact that over the course of a regular month/year that there are much bigger, more valuable fish in Shannon than Aer Lingus.

You remind me of the poster who said because an EI business passenger buys an Irish times, a coffee and newspaper in the airport that those passengers have to be more valuable to the airport than your regular Ryanair punter.

If it’s a fact, I’m sure you can point us to the source? I at least would love to see these facts so I can establish if what I hear from senior management in various air industry segments is BS. Thanks!

RocketRaccoon

Deagol wrote: »

If it’s a fact, I’m sure you can point us to the source? I at least would love to see these facts so I can establish if what I hear from senior management in various air industry segments is BS. Thanks!

What sort of source? The fact that I know the costs involved comes from my work role, Im not quite sure how I can provide evidence to you.

AnRothar

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

What sort of source? The fact that I know the costs involved comes from my work role, Im not quite sure how I can provide evidence to you.

Looks like an element of comparing apples and oranges.
Airports generate revenue from a number of different sources.
Landing fees.
Ground services (fueling etc)
Parking (air bridge vs hard stand).
Car parking.
Concessions inside the terminal (food, shops etc). Airports rely a lot more on these than people realise.

To use 2 examples.
A Ryanair flight on a short hop from its base will not usually upload fuel nor pay for an airbridge.
Typical Ryanair short haul passengers point to point tend not to spend a lot inside the terminal.
Collected/dropped outside where the car is inside the car park for 15 minutes or less (or whatever equivalent free time).
Bugger all revenue to the airport from this flight.

Or
A Ryanair flight to the sun.
This needs fuel.
Passengers will tend to be a lot of families so prime candidates to have parked a car and buy stuff inside.
More useful in terms of revenue.