Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

Brennans Row

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nothing requiring SNN to open 24/7 besides the A380 DUB could cope if SNN wasn't open. Hoping for IAA to foot a bill is beyond ridiculous.

Ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that Dublin on the east coast is geographically the better option to serve an emergency occurring off the west coast of Ireland?

You could be talking of an extra 20 to 30 minutes in the air before landing in Dublin as opposed to Shannon.

Imagine a fire on board a British Airways A380 with 500 people, then having to overfly a closed Shannon Airport and praying to reach Dublin on time.

I never said that the IAA should foot the total bill but they should pencil in some of the costs of having a safety net in operation (365/24) on the west coast.

Sadly some of the medical diversions that came to Shannon were too late as the passengers had just died, others were more fortunate.

It’s a race against time.

Jamie2k9

Brennans Row wrote: »

Ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that Dublin on the east coast is geographically the better option to serve an emergency occurring off the west coast of Ireland?

You could be talking of an extra 20 to 30 minutes in the air before landing in Dublin as opposed to Shannon.

Imagine a fire on board a British Airways A380 with 500 people, then having to overfly a closed Shannon Airport and praying to reach Dublin on time.

I never said that the IAA should foot the total bill but they should pencil in some of the costs of having a safety net in operation (365/24) on the west coast.

Sadly some of the medical diversions that came to Shannon were too late as the passengers had just died, others were more fortunate.

It’s a race against time.

Your brushing over the fact SNN is only closed for around 6 houses to scheduled flights. It is open the other 18 hours so why don't airport operators cover the bill?

The majority of diversions are not full emergencies. Remember very limited traffic crossing the pound between 12am-4am

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Your point was addressed in the article .....

But there's an inherent contradiction in that. If diversions are infrequent, the 24/7 target for operations isn't really needed. And to be crystal clear, alternatives are available on every day except Christmas Day.

Bear in mind also, all the main airports handle diversions. Even Cork (sorry for the 'even' Cork) was famously used for an emergency 747 landing once.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/105970-klm-747-diverts-cork.html#post1033787

And it's just not the job of the IAA to subsidise random airline costs. If the landing fees aren't enough, raise them. Just as an aside

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304441404577478603178669654

Trouble lands here, sometimes twice a week.

Airline flights with security threats, sick passengers and mechanical problems often end up at Bangor International Airport—the first or last major airport in the U.S. for the hundreds of flights across the Atlantic Ocean every day. Flights that are running low on fuel or need to wait out bad weather at their destinations put down here, too. <...>

The airport collects landing fees, fuel fees and ground-handling fees when airlines drop in unexpectedly. That typically adds up to $2,000 or so per flight, depending on the size of the plane. The revenue helps support the airport, but diversions aren't a business that the airport can really count on.

"We can't go out and try to drum up the business and say this year we want 500 diversions," said Risteen Bahr, the airport's marketing manager.

Cosmo Kramer

Brennans Row wrote: »

Ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that Dublin on the east coast is geographically the better option to serve an emergency occurring off the west coast of Ireland?

You could be talking of an extra 20 to 30 minutes in the air before landing in Dublin as opposed to Shannon.

Imagine a fire on board a British Airways A380 with 500 people, then having to overfly a closed Shannon Airport and praying to reach Dublin on time.

I never said that the IAA should foot the total bill but they should pencil in some of the costs of having a safety net in operation (365/24) on the west coast.

Sadly some of the medical diversions that came to Shannon were too late as the passengers had just died, others were more fortunate.

It’s a race against time.

You'd swear Ireland was a remote rock in the middle of the Pacific with this kind of rubbish. If it wasn't there, plenty of other western European airports would handle this traffic just fine. Shannon's location makes it convenient, but in no way essential, for these situations.

However, it is certainly not convenient enough to justify the €38 million annual bailout fund that has been set up for it on top of the initial €100 million dig out it got from the government to stop it from going out of business. Over a ten year period it is looking as though Shannon will require as much as €500 million in public money to keep its head above water. In a time of widespread cuts to essential public services the funding being thrown at Shannon amounts to a national scandal.

JCX BXC

So if Dublin is so capable at handling these diversions, why don't they? Shannon handles alot more than Dublin.

Jamie2k9

Carnacalla wrote: »

So if Dublin is so capable at handling these diversions, why don't they? Shannon handles alot more than Dublin.

It's really up to airlines, I expect fees are much higher at DUB.

However, it is certainly not convenient enough to justify the €38 million annual bailout fund

Curious any source for this, wasn't aware.

JCX BXC

So is the extra 20/30mins not a factor?

Hardly,

highlydebased

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Curious any source for this, wasn't aware.

Don't think you'll find a source either, made up to suit an agenda I think!

Brennans Row

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

You'd swear Ireland was a remote rock in the middle of the Pacific with this kind of rubbish. If it wasn't there, plenty of other western European airports would handle this traffic just fine. Shannon's location makes it convenient, but in no way essential, for these situations.

However, it is certainly not convenient enough to justify the €38 million annual bailout fund that has been set up for it on top of the initial €100 million dig out it got from the government to stop it from going out of business. Over a ten year period it is looking as though Shannon will require as much as €500 million in public money to keep its head above water. In a time of widespread cuts to essential public services the funding being thrown at Shannon amounts to a national scandal.

Thank you for your constructive rant!

The Booz Report mentioned the possibility of Shannon recovering some of these costs from the IAA for being a designated diversion airport on the Atlantic routes.

Alternatively, Shannon can save a €0.5 million of its costs if the airport closed from midnight to six in the morning.

For what its worth, British Airways has confirmed Shannon Airport as its preferred option as a diversionary airport if the Airbus A380 ‘Superjumbo’ needs to make an unscheduled landing.

Jamie2k9

Brennans Row wrote: »

Thank you for your constructive rant!

The Booz Report mentioned the possibility of Shannon recovering some of these costs from the IAA for being a designated diversion airport on the Atlantic routes.

Alternatively, Shannon can save a €0.5 million of its costs if the airport closed from midnight to six in the morning.

For what its worth, British Airways has confirmed Shannon Airport as its preferred option as a diversionary airport if the Airbus A380 ‘Superjumbo’ needs to make an unscheduled landing.

Count how many diversions happen during those hours over the last year?

As for closing midnight to 6 doesn't EI come in around 05.45

highlydebased

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Count how many diversions happen during those hours over the last year?

As for closing midnight to 6 doesn't EI come in around 05.45

I think the Star Air Cargo is scheduled to arrive at 5am on 4 or 5 nights of the week. In January wasn't the Boston flight arriving well before 5am too when the winds were particularly strong

Cosmo Kramer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Curious any source for this, wasn't aware.

The figure is quoted in today's Independent as "an estimated €38m". So it could be a bit less than that. Then again it could be even more.

Carnacalla wrote: »

So if Dublin is so capable at handling these diversions, why don't they? Shannon handles alot more than Dublin.

Most causes for diversions take place out over the ocean so Shannon is closer for taking the aircraft. However if Shannon was not available the aircraft could easily be diverted to other airports both in Ireland and elsewhere.

highlydebased

So the estimated €38m is rental income from the industrial estate (not any kind of government/taxpayer "bailout"). I'd love to know if this is actually used in anyway towards propping the airport up.

Sometimes I think people are putting 2+2 and getting 5 because not only is Shannon Airport and Shannon Properties (industrial estate) part of the one group but so is Shannon Heritage who operate Bunratty castle etc, so if the rentroll is propping up the airport then you could assume that ticket sales from Bunratty Castle do too!

Cosmo Kramer

highlydebased wrote: »

So the estimated €38m is rental income from the industrial estate (not any kind of government/taxpayer "bailout"). I'd love to know if this is actually used in anyway towards propping the airport up.

Sometimes I think people are putting 2+2 and getting 5 because not only is Shannon Airport and Shannon Properties (industrial estate) part of the one group but so is Shannon Heritage who operate Bunratty castle etc, so if the rentroll is propping up the airport then you could assume that ticket sales from Bunratty Castle do too!

Yes it would be interesting to see a full breakdown. However if, as suggested in today's newspaper article, this €38m is being diverted towards the airport annually it is dishonest to suggest that it is not being taken from the public purse to facilitate the airport. Whether it is rental income or anything else it is public taxpayer money which could surely be put to better use elsewhere.

Airbus330

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It's really up to airlines, I expect fees are much higher at DUB.



Curious any source for this, wasn't aware.

Hahahahahah fees? Are you having a laugh? Never have I heard such rubbish in all my life.

Fire alarms blaring in the cockpit, someone dying of a heart attack on the cabin floor, engine failure etc and you think they're worried about fees sitting there doing up there sums on the calculator in the cockpit.

Please. In emergency situations it is about getting the aircraft on the ground in the most safe manner as quick as possible and the majority if not all of these go to SNN

SNN is much more suited to handling diversions, medical or aircraft related incidents, and that's a fact. Yaaawn.

highlydebased

I also think 38m is probably the total rental income for all the properties for the year and you wouldn't expect they would need to throw it ALL at the airport!

Shannon Development spent whatever money they had in the last 10 years on their pet projects like the Westpark white elephant (while leaving the rest of the estate to rot) so even if they are spending it on the airport now it wouldn't be diverted to much else useful

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

The Booz Report mentioned the possibility of Shannon recovering some of these costs from the IAA for being a designated diversion airport on the Atlantic routes.
Alternatively, Shannon can save a €0.5 million of its costs if the airport closed from midnight to six in the morning.

You'll remember that, when he was Minister for Transport, Leo Varadkar commented to the effect that there is no 'designation' placing any obligation on Shannon.

So it's really just up to Shannon. It's either worthwhile offering a 24/7 service or it isn't. If it isn't, they should stop.

highlydebased

Something in the Champion about the elusive TK freighter service http://www.clarechampion.ie/turkey-gains-cargo-right-at-shannon/

elastico

Airbus330 wrote: »

Hahahahahah fees? Are you having a laugh? Never have I heard such rubbish in all my life.

Fire alarms blaring in the cockpit, someone dying of a heart attack on the cabin floor, engine failure etc and you think they're worried about fees sitting there doing up there sums on the calculator in the cockpit.

Please. In emergency situations it is about getting the aircraft on the ground in the most safe manner as quick as possible and the majority if not all of these go to SNN

SNN is much more suited to handling diversions, medical or aircraft related incidents, and that's a fact. Yaaawn.

While Shannon is best suited if it simply didn't exist or got closed tomorrow aircraft in trouble would just continue onto Dublin or elsewhere.

How many of these emergency landings or sick passenger landings would have had the same outcome if the plane flew and extra 20 minutes from Dublin?

If an emergency that occurs 3 hours out whether its Shannon in 3 hours or 3.20 to Dublin the plane would have crashed or passenger be dead anyway if it was serious enough.

It is a handy diversionary airport because its uncongested and probably results in the least tie wasted for passengers but I don't think its that important.

Cookiemunster

highlydebased wrote: »

Something in the Champion about the elusive TK freighter service http://www.clarechampion.ie/turkey-gains-cargo-right-at-shannon/

Here's the official statement.

Airbus330

elastico wrote: »

While Shannon is best suited if it simply didn't exist or got closed tomorrow aircraft in trouble would just continue onto Dublin or elsewhere.

How many of these emergency landings or sick passenger landings would have had the same outcome if the plane flew and extra 20 minutes from Dublin?

If an emergency that occurs 3 hours out whether its Shannon in 3 hours or 3.20 to Dublin the plane would have crashed or passenger be dead anyway if it was serious enough.

It is a handy diversionary airport because its uncongested and probably results in the least tie wasted for passengers but I don't think its that important.

Don't agree with you on that but at least you give a knowledgeable argument. Spoke with one of the Air Traffic Controllers down there in relation to this, and he told me that Shannon is ideally located for these incidents, and for such events that occurs over the Atlantic.

The main reason was because of Shannon's runway length which is obviously best suited for aircraft such as the A380 which Dublin can't handle fully laden and other large aircraft that need to land that are over the maximum landing weight. Shannon also benefits from no noise restrictions, though thats not hugely important in emergency situations. Saying continuing onto Dublin for an extra 20 minutes? Sure f**k it they may as well continue onto Manchester or Liverpool if that's the case. Who knows what the outcome of these situations would be if they had to go to Dublin, maybe some of these passengers that survived may not have if they continued on.

You don't play with peoples lives saying a well sure whats another 20 minutes. Dublin folk need to realise that it aint the best for everything.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Airbus330 wrote: »

You don't play with peoples lives saying a well sure whats another 20 minutes. Dublin folk need to realise that it aint the best for everything.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Airlines should have a preference for one airport over another. As mentioned earlier, a 747 made an emergency landing in Cork once. I don't think anyone is saying the pilot should have pressed on to Shannon, when he thought he might have a fire onboard.

The question is simply "who pays"? The airlines are the ones with responsibility for the passengers. No reason for the IAA to be subsidising any airline that might need to make an emergency stop sometime.

Airbus330

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I don't think anyone is arguing that Airlines should have a preference for one airport over another. As mentioned earlier, a 747 made an emergency landing in Cork once. I don't think anyone is saying the pilot should have pressed on to Shannon, when he thought he might have a fire onboard.

The question is simply "who pays"? The airlines are the ones with responsibility for the passengers. No reason for the IAA to be subsidising any airline that might need to make an emergency stop sometime.

Yes I agree with you on that. I certainly don't think any airport should receive a subsidy for them type of operations.

But trying to argue that SNN doesn't play a major role in emergency situations for transatlantic flights is kind of pathetic.

Jamie2k9

Airbus330 wrote: »

Yes I agree with you on that. I certainly don't think any airport should receive a subsidy for them type of operations.

But trying to argue that SNN doesn't play a major role in emergency situations for transatlantic flights is kind of pathetic.

I was not arguing the fact but I agree no subsidy should be provided and as already stated between 12-6am there is limited overpass flights until 4 am and the majority of diversions are during normal operational hours.

Davys Fits

Shannon is as an alternate for most transatlantic traffic. When flight planning an always open airport is certainly more favourable than one that isn't.
For many reasons outlined already it is best suited for this. However if it closed tomorrow it doesn't mean that north Atlantic traffic would cease. But for the moment the state has an obligation to keep it open at night as it has done for decades. As already stated I think the SNN does particularly well from all these diversions. Whether the cost of keeping it open at night outweighs the benefits is the question?

Good news from the turks!

Airbus330

Davys Fits wrote: »

Shannon is as an alternate for most transatlantic traffic. When flight planning an always open airport is certainly more favourable than one that isn't.
For many reasons outlined already it is best suited for this. However if it closed tomorrow it doesn't mean that north Atlantic traffic would cease. But for the moment the state has an obligation to keep it open at night as it has done for decades. As already stated I think the SNN does particularly well from all these diversions. Whether the cost of keeping it open at night outweighs the benefits is the question?

Good news from the turks!

Well said. Anyone any idea what time these Turkish flights will be departing on the Friday? Would love to catch it one of the days.

Brennans Row

Airbus330 wrote: »

Anyone any idea what time these Turkish flights will be departing on the Friday? Would love to catch it one of the days.

According to their cargo website the next schedule from Shannon to Chicago departs Friday at 10:50.

Brennans Row

Man taken off flight at Shannon and arrested (Clare Herald)

Norwegian Air Shuttle flight NAX7045 (B787) London Gatwick to Fort Lauderdale Florida diverted to Shannon this evening.

dr.fuzzenstein

That aircraft looks like a dog's lipstick. Bit of an unfortunate color scheme IMO.

Jhcx

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That aircraft looks like a dog's lipstick. Bit of an unfortunate color scheme IMO.

Looks like a lot of things