Lab pup won’t stop barking at night – is ignoring it creating a habit for life?

karlyk1

Hi fellow dog-loving Boardsies, I need your help.
Have a beautiful 12-week-old Lab pup (got her when she was nearly 9 weeks) who is a confident little ball of fun from morning till night. She’s doing very well with the toilet-training (accidents are increasingly infrequent), eats everything in sight (food, branches, shoes, sometimes stones… she’s keeping us busy!) and we wouldn’t swap her for the world… great craic.
However, nighttime is a disaster. She’s sleeping in an (opened) crate in a small bathroom in our downstairs utility room, which is about 8ft x 5ft, but barks incessantly for about ½ hour every night when she’s put in. When we wake in the morning she’s already barking too, and has usually poohed on her puppy mat (totally understandable) but, without being too gross, has usually danced all over it and walked it all over, walls and all. Mornings are a total nightmare when you have to rush out to work.
It’s Catch-22 with closing the crate door (it’s a big one and I’ve no dividers) as she is bound to dirty it and make a worse mess. If I was to get up in the middle of the night and let her out I KNOW she will bark her head off again when I put her back, so that’s not going to achieve much.
Only got her second shots on Tuesday so I’ll be able to take her out for walks and get her knackered, which should help when she first goes in – but that won’t stop her barking in the morning. Have tried Adaptil spray, luke-warm hot water bottle (she put a hole in it), can’t use the alarm clock wrapped in something trick (she WILL dismantle it). :rolleyes:
Ah well, the joys of a puppy! Here’s the thing though… I know it’s probably separation anxiety and that each dog is different, but I am really worried that using the ‘ignore her’ method (as advised by everyone, including the vet) is only reinforcing this behaviour as a habit that will stick, because it’s not decreasing at all after four weeks. Her annoying little bark now will soon become a deep, bassy one…. Not sure the neighbours will appreciate it!:(
What to do? Help please!!!??? (sorry for the length of post)

robocode

I was in the exact same position when our lab was that age, crated in downstairs utility, whinging all night. What we did was move the crate to our bedroom, he still whinged a bit when he went in the cage the first few nights but quickly settled and would be snoring his head off in about 3 minutes. I would wake up once or twice during the night, lift him out of the crate and carry him outside to go to the toilet.
Then after a few nights we moved the crate to the door of the bedroom, after another few nights out on to the landing etc. until he was at the bottom of the stairs and eventually back crated in the utility. It took a few tiring weeks but the end result was a puppy who now loves his bed in the utility (no crate any more) and has been toilet trained perfectly for ages.

Karlitto

Hey Karly,

A couple of suggestions here,

So, the barking at night time, she just might not like being alone, she is a puppy, and you have had her about 5 weeks if I am right? She is still settling in, is someone at home during the day? If so, she might be used to the constant contact, which can lead to the attitude of "I want to be with you all of the time", that will fade, the best thing to do for this first half hour is to ignore it, don't shout down saying be quiet, don't go down and try to get her to relax, that will only tell her "bark and you will get attention". You should get up during the night if you need to use the bathroom, or happen to wake up anyway, completely ignore her, this will send a message that just because you happen to wake up, does not mean you need to go down to her.

In terms of the barking in the morning, this is most likely to do with the poo, lets be honest, who likes the smell of poo being trapped in the same room as you? (Oh and for the record, yep, the two girls at home thought it was great fun to dance all over it, and wrestle in it), a tip in relation to this is, take her food away at night (7 PM is what I did) and take the water away at about 9. By 10, bring her out for one last pee/poo session before bed time, make sure she does both and wait as long as you need until she does.

And I know the feeling with the whole cleaning up everything before going to work, but at the end of the day, she is a pup and ya got to do what ya got to do.

But yep, I suppose, in terms of the barking, the best thing to do is completely ignore it, it won't go away over night, but she will realize it won't get her attention, don't forget, puppies are babies, they are attention seekers The habit won't stick. It is what I did with the two girls and they stopped barking, and now I can come downstairs (they sleep in the hall), walk by their beds to get a drink or whatever, they don't even bother raising their heads as they know it is "sleep time"

Edit: Oh, and have you tried a rubber bed? (like a big rubber cushion as her bed) instead of a crate? I found one of my two really did not like the crate at all at all.

karlyk1

Thanks for the quick replies folks.
Yeah, Robocode, was thinking I might have to bring the crate to our room for a bit, but it’s bloody huge! Just thought that might be a bit like ‘giving in’ to her, but if it worked for you and your Lab….!
Yes, Karlito, there’s pretty much someone at home all day long and I reckon it’s a lot got to do with it. Believe me, we DO completely ignore her at night (sounds like bliss to me, walking past your dogs at night without them budging…). Only two feeds a day now, so last one is about 7pm alright, and I’m letting her out every hour-and-a-half up until she goes to bed (usually about 12-1am)… still not stopping her doing ‘the business’ in her creative fashion!
Might check out the rubber bed today, as I’m off to the petshop to get a rubber Kong that I can fill with stuff. Wonder would that keep her busy at night?

robocode

We were also worried moving the crate would be giving in to him but it really worked out great. I actually missed his snoring when he was moved out of the room (girlfriend didn't, she figured it was bad enough with my snoring let alone the dogs too). We also swear by Kongs for keeping him occupied but giving it to yours during the night mightn't be a good idea as regards toilet training

borderlinemeath

She's still very young, and tbh, I wouldn't do just 2 feeds a day, move it back to 3 if you can. She's still growing and the smaller meals more often will help with her growth and development until at least 6 months old, maybe even older. Last meal can still be as late as 8pm and she should do her last poo before bed, but she is still very young and will probably need to get up in the night to wee at least. One thing might be worth finding out, is she doing the poo in the first half hour of being left alone? ie is due to anxiousness at being left alone, or is the poo in the morning when waking, due to just needing to go?

I reckon the problem is the lack of acclimatisation to the crate, coupled with the fact that there's constant human interaction. While it's great to be around all day for your puppy - it's best to build up some time alone gradually in order to avoid your puppy suffering from separation anxiety if and when they are left alone, which will eventually happen. You have to start small though, how is she when left alone for 5 minutes? Does she whine and cry?

Acclimatising your pup to the crate is going to be tough now that she doesn't really like it at night. You're going to have to make it nice and inviting for her. Move the crate into the living area, feed from the crate, put toys in the crate, kong eating and playtime in the crate. Leave the door open so she can come and go as she pleases. You say she loves her food, if you feed her in the crate she will soon associate it with getting fed. In order to break her out of the habit of pooing, completely clean it down with a biological washing powder solution to try and get every bit of scent off it, and the same with her crate mat. Change to some old towels for a few nights, (ones that haven't been poo'd on!). Try leaving the crate overnight in the living area, a change of routine may help with the overnight trauma, or have you a utility that may work as a bedroom rather than the bathroom? One thing I do to get my dogs into looking forward to bedtime is introduce a bedtime treat. They know when I ask them to get onto their 'own beds' because it's 'beddybyes and night nights' that it's bedtime and they are practically drooling for their treat. Then they settle down and go straight to sleep, a command phrase may help if you make bedtime more welcoming.

Karlitto

karlyk1 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick replies folks.
Yeah, Robocode, was thinking I might have to bring the crate to our room for a bit, but it’s bloody huge! Just thought that might be a bit like ‘giving in’ to her, but if it worked for you and your Lab….!
Yes, Karlito, there’s pretty much someone at home all day long and I reckon it’s a lot got to do with it. Believe me, we DO completely ignore her at night (sounds like bliss to me, walking past your dogs at night without them budging…). Only two feeds a day now, so last one is about 7pm alright, and I’m letting her out every hour-and-a-half up until she goes to bed (usually about 12-1am)… still not stopping her doing ‘the business’ in her creative fashion!
Might check out the rubber bed today, as I’m off to the petshop to get a rubber Kong that I can fill with stuff. Wonder would that keep her busy at night?

Ok, it might be to do with that, may sound like bliss, but you will get there, it is repetition, repetition, repetition, no one said it would be easy

The kong might work, but I would suggest against it as you don't want to have to "bribe" her into going to bed, because when she is finished, she might kick up then.

Might I make a suggestion of, if the last person goes to bed at 12-1 AM, try putting her to bed at 10, each time she comes out (and she will sneak out at times) you need to put her back into her bed (not forgetting the bed command), use a treat every couple of times. Leave the door open so she is able to come out and you can put her back so she learns it is bed time, also, she might not like being kept in a closed room, I would suggest a baby gate for the door so the door is open but she can't get out.

And yea, this will take a while to train her, but it means she knows when bed time is, so if you wanted to sit back and watch a film and relax, you are free to do so. As I said, remember that she is a pup, and still a baby

DBB

OP, borderlinemeath sad it already, your pup needs to be fed more often... 2 meals is not enough for a 12 week old pup, and you can be damned sure that a lot of her restlessness is because she's hungry. I would be looking at feeding her 3, if not 4 times per day. She should be fed immediately before bed, and I would never, ever deprive a puppy of water. Ever. Particularly a dry-fed pup.
I would suggest that you feed her her last feed in the crate, in a Kong Toy, which may mean steeping her food and sticking it in the freezer for a short while to firm it up a bit (not rock solid frozen). Using the Kong as a "bribe" is known in training terms as "luring", and is a perfectly acceptable way to get a new behaviour up and running. But you do have to get rid of the lure eventually. This meal should be fed to her last thing at night: leaving a pup from the early evening through to the following morning without food is just too long, by a country mile.
You can progress it by giving a clear command ("Go to bed" or the like), then use a small food treat to lure her in, and then give her the Kong, once she's in. Eventually you will be able to dispense with that small food lure altogether, as she'll jump into her crate in order to get her Kong.
I would ensure that she's well tucked into her Kong before you leave her.
I would also strongly urge that you do not leave her all night in the crate locked up: she's not old enough to be able to hold on all night, and this is why she's crapping in the crate (although there may be anxiety issues causing this too, more about this below), and this will destroy any hope of getting her properly crate trained. If you come down to a puppy covered in crap, there's something seriously wrong with the way things are happening, and this is going to need serious consideration and commitment to address. When you get up during the night to let her out, because you really do have to, give her another semi-filled or smeared Kong toy to help her calm.
Leave a radio on for her, on talk radio.

I would be concerned that there's more to this though, and that she is developing separation anxiety: please, please, please OP, take steps to address this possibility now, because separation anxiety is one of the most difficult behavioural problems to sort out. You MUST get her used to lots of very brief bouts of isolation during the day, they may last only a second or two at first, and then you gradually extend them. If you're there all day with her, and then you suddenly leave her alone at night (feeling hungry), it's not fair on her young brain: inadequate habituation to solitude is a very common cause of separation anxiety in the adult dog, so you really need to get her, very gradually, used to solitude.
I would be inclined to bring her up to the room in her crate (or buy a second, smaller crate just to last her puppyhood), and gradually move her out, as already suggested. This period of puppyhood is genuinely and seriously traumatic for them, and leaving her to cry and bark for 30 mins is too much, she needs to be treated a little more sensitively than the sledgehammer of just ignoring her.

karlyk1

Just a couple of points, in case wires are getting crossed!

Actually DID have her on 3 meals a day until I brought her to the vet (4 meals until a week or so ago), but vet recommended getting her on to two now (same amount overall, just incrementally increasing the amount with each passing week as she gets bigger). One of those meals was always shortly before bedtime, so I don’t think it’s hunger that’s the cause.
Also, I always leave her with water… I don’t care if she has to pee because she had to drink water due to being thirsty. Better that than dehydration!
Also, we don’t leave her locked up in her crate all night, we leave the door open on it in the little bathroom she’s in. I know this is not proper ‘crating’, but she sleeps in it no problem if I bring it out to where we are during the day or evening and just close the door over without locking it. She hasn’t ever crapped in it…… yet!
I’ve never come down to her and she’s covered in poo. She obviously just walks in it now and again when she’s barking, so you would see little dabs of it on the tiles where it might be stuck under her paws (don’t think she knows she’s even doing it). No big deal, but obviously I’d rather that wasn’t the case. Tried the radio trick also… think she hated it (maybe it was George Hook re-runs on Newstalk!)
Not sure if I agree ignoring the barking is a ‘sledgehammer’ approach, as it worked with all the dogs I’ve had during my life (they all settled down pretty quickly) and seems to be recommended by a large amount of sources, from vets to doggy care websites – but each dog is individual and it doesn’t really seem to work that well for her, so I’ll have to change tack.
I agree that it might be a case of separation anxiety, but now it's probably from us rather than the litter. Mother-in-law lives with us and is home all day and she absolutely ADORES the dog, but it means she’s never on her own till night, so I think the suggestion of gradually increasing ‘brief bouts of isolation’ is a very good idea. Don’t have a baby gate, but would say that’s what I’ll do (5 minutes behind the gate hearing and seeing us in the other room, then 8 minutes, up to 10-15 minutes, etc over a period of a week or two). Looking at it now, the first time she’s really alone each day is when we put her to bed.
Also think moving her into our bedroom till she gets really settled at night in her crate is the way forward (then landing, then downstairs). Only problem is we’re very heavy sleepers! Will have to set my alarm! Hopefully she’ll whine enough to let us know she needs to go and I’ll scarper down the stairs and out the back with her in time.
Kong trick seems to be a good option too, and I can start walking her early next week.... at least she should be knackered when she goes to bed at first. Thanks for the replies.

robocode

Oh she'll whine enough to wake you! +1 on the babygate too, we have one in our utility, he sleeps peacefully there now but would go apoplectic if we didn't have that and had to close the door. Best of luck!

karlyk1

robocode wrote: »

Oh she'll whine enough to wake you! +1 on the babygate too, we have one in our utility, he sleeps peacefully there now but would go apoplectic if we didn't have that and had to close the door. Best of luck!

Once we don't 'wine' too much to hear her! But yeah, I expect she'll be plenty vocal enough with her whine to wake us.... We'll probably be on tenterhooks for the early period anyway, waking every time she moves in case it's potty time. Hopefully this works.

boomerang

karlyk1 wrote: »

Actually DID have her on 3 meals a day until I brought her to the vet (4 meals until a week or so ago), but vet recommended getting her on to two now (same amount overall, just incrementally increasing the amount with each passing week as she gets bigger).

Quite simply, your vet is wrong, OP. It happens. They're not infallible.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

Quite simply, your vet is wrong, OP. It happens. They're not infallible.

I'd agree - OP if you feed too much at a time the pup could get bloated or get the runs which is the last thing you need to be cleaning up if it happens inside!

DBB

karlyk1 wrote: »

Actually DID have her on 3 meals a day until I brought her to the vet (4 meals until a week or so ago), but vet recommended getting her on to two now (same amount overall, just incrementally increasing the amount with each passing week as she gets bigger). One of those meals was always shortly before bedtime, so I don’t think it’s hunger that’s the cause.

As boomerang says, sometimes vets get it wrong. Two meals a day for a big breed is not right. Seriously OP, I have fostered dozens and dozens of pups in my time... a late meal last thing at night is really important to help them settle.

Also, I always leave her with water… I don’t care if she has to pee because she had to drink water due to being thirsty. Better that than dehydration!

I didn't mean to imply that you did, but it was suggested to you in the thread. I just wanted to counter it.

I’ve never come down to her and she’s covered in poo. She obviously just walks in it now and again when she’s barking, so you would see little dabs of it on the tiles where it might be stuck under her paws (don’t think she knows she’s even doing it).

Again, I didn't so much mean to imply this, but poop being walked all over the floor like that is just as bad, and implies that she is pacing and pacing, which means she's not resting, which suggests she's anxious. Very anxious. So, back to the theory of possible separation anxiety we go.

Not sure if I agree ignoring the barking is a ‘sledgehammer’ approach, as it worked with all the dogs I’ve had during my life (they all settled down pretty quickly) and seems to be recommended by a large amount of sources, from vets to doggy care websites – but each dog is individual and it doesn’t really seem to work that well for her, so I’ll have to change tack.

I have no problem with owners ignoring their puppies for a a bit of howling, whining or barking over the first couple of nights, it's pretty standard advice. But the fact that it's been going on for weeks now DOES mean that ignoring her is a sledgehammer, to her. Be very, very careful who you take your advice from on training issues online, there are some serious shysters out there, but even still, I can't see anyone telling you to continue ignoring your dog after all this time... it's not working, and it's not working because probably, there's something deeper at work. And back we are again to the possibility of separation anxiety.

I agree that it might be a case of separation anxiety, but now it's probably from us rather than the litter.

It starts with the litter, because it is rare for pups to ever be separated from their mother or siblings before they're sold off/adopted out to new homes. If the owners spend almost all of their time at home, then the tendency of constant-company is perpetuated, and the pup never gets used to being alone. Then, when it is suddenly left alone, it is devastating for them. That is possibly what happened when you started leaving her alone at night.

(5 minutes behind the gate hearing and seeing us in the other room, then 8 minutes, up to 10-15 minutes, etc over a period of a week or two).

5 minutes is possibly too long, If she tends to follow people from room to room, and gets at all anxious the moment she's left alone, then you must start with absences that are short enough not to elicit anxiety: this could very well be one second or less, depending on the dog. If you leave for 5 minutes, without taking into account how long she can tolerate, and come back to a distressed pup, you're making the problem worse, not better.

Kong trick seems to be a good option too, and I can start walking her early next week.... at least she should be knackered when she goes to bed at first.

Go easy on the walks with a young pup, especially a Labrador. She should only get a few minutes a day. There is nothing to stop you burning off her energy via play, training, kong toys, kong wobblers etc... all much more appropriate and low-impact exercise for a breed that's prone to joint problems. There is also nothing to stop you bringing her out int he car, and to friend's houses, and to friend's houses where there are vaccinated dogs, before her vaccinations are done. That is advice published from Merial, the vaccination company.

karlyk1

Ah yeah DBB, no worries, I wasn’t taking offence or thinking you were implying anything untoward… it just seemed to have got confusing there for a bit.
Yeah, the poop being walked on suggests she’s pacing quite a bit. Certainly doesn’t seem to be doing it on purpose, as she nearly stepped in her own in the garden before I got to it with the shovel the other day and she jumped away in indignation, as if the very thought disgusted her! Actually made me laugh (was thinking to myself ‘well, why aren’t you that careful at night??’:P)
As I said, the ‘ignore it’ method worked perfect (and quickly) for me previously, but doesn’t seem to be cutting the mustard this time… so to Boards.ie I decided to go - seeking advice and inspiration.
Yeah, the separation anxiety is exacerbated by being with someone all day, then alone in bed. When I say 5 minutes behind the baby gate I’m being aspirational… 10 seconds will seem like a major achievement at first, but gradually increasing it will hopefully work. Just have to buy baby gates now…
I won’t be going mad on the walks, but I’m dying to see how she gets on outside (will probably bounce instead of walking, knowing her). But even short walks should give her extra stimulus and also tire her out enough that she is more inclined to sleep…. Hopefully.
She already gets a fair bit of play with balls, chew toys, etc and have brought her on a couple of car trips. Amazingly, so far she’s actually brilliant in the car – not fazed at all. Has a bit of a potter around, a few sniffs, then goes for a snooze. I’m sure this could all change too, though.
So, she’ll be a bedroom puppy for the immediate future… just hope she doesn’t try to chew through the crate when locked in it!

mymo

We started a game with our fella to get him used to us going out of sight, you need to start with the wait command (we didn't use stay because that is to stay until released for us, wait is we'll be right back to our dogs, start by going a few steps and returning, build up to walking out the door of the room and returning).
Two people in the room, one needs to stay with the dog, call it back if it tries to follow, one leaves (we used to walk to the kitchen to get a treat) after telling the pup wait, walk away and return with a treat, don't over praise and get the dog excited, just a good dog, pet the dog and give the treat. Once the dog is actually waiting, the second person can be eliminated, try it alone.
We extended this to going upstairs, then up to about two minutes.
This will teach the dog you will be back, I used a baby gate too, and mopped floors, hoovered, cleaned etc, all while going in and out of sight.

You may not need to go as slow as we did, but our fella was very bad and got very worked up if he couldn't see us.
Also getting up in the night only lasted about 6weeks once he was in the room in his crate, he was toilet trained almost from the start, once he got out when he needed to.

karlyk1

Hi folks… thought I’d give an update on our situation in case it might help someone else a bit in future.
Took the advice of moving the crate to our bedroom to alleviate her separation anxiety issues… and has worked a treat! First night there was a good bit of whingeing, whimpering and just three barks (all in it lasted about 15 minutes), but we ignored it (so hard to do when she’s right beside you) and BANG! She flopped on to her mat and was snoring within 20 seconds. Since then I don’t think I’ve heard her whimper once when she goes in, unless it’s ‘business time’ – and she’s become very good at letting us know when that is.
Yes, I’ve spent a fair amount of time standing out the back garden in our glorious Jan/Feb weather :rolleyes: in the middle of the night/early morning while she sniffs around and tries to eat inappropriate things before she gets the job done, but she now seems to be ALMOST totally house trained (no ‘accidents’ in the house, apart from the one below, in almost a week).
Next step (maybe next week!) is to move her out to the landing – we’ll see how she gets on. Don’t want to rush it, as she’s doing so well now, but it has to be done at some stage.
Just got my brother’s old baby gate from his attic yesterday, so will now try to get her more acclimatised to being on her own on one side, while still being able to see/hear/scent us over the other side occasionally during the day. As DBB advised, will do this in very small amounts at a time at first, gradually increasing it. ‘Alone time’ is the one major issue now that we really have to address (she’s so clingy, but she’s such a cutie it’s hard not to be with her!). For her own good we have to get it right though.
The one glitch (as I mentioned above) is we left her in her crate one night with her filled Kong (which is, without doubt, a MAJOR hit with her) to go out socially. Have done this once or twice (just for an hour or two) and came back and found her comfortably snoozing, so it’s working well. However, on this night the wind was blowing a gale and obviously set off our house alarm, which is REALLY loud on the inside of the house, and obviously upset her. We were faced with a barking dog who had pooped in her crate and walked it in a bit. Was so p**sed off this had happened (not with the dog, mind, it wasn’t her fault) but up to then it was going perfectly. Has slept soundly in the crate since, so hopefully it wasn’t too much of a setback for her.
Other than that the training is going so well (walks are a challenge, she can go left, right and backwards well but struggles to walk forward in a straight line!), Kong is a brilliant ‘lure’, can ‘sit’ and ‘wait’ on command (well, 80 per cent of the time) and seems to be an extremely happy and content doggie.
Will update in future if anyone else thinks it might help them in a similar situation.
Thanks for the earlier replies folks.