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Mods I suggest you step in here, OP has stated that he was overcharged for an examination which is claimed lasted only 30 sec. This is libellous, I have informed the dentist concerned, I'm certain he will be in touch with boards requesting OP IP details.
You might be better to use the report button as mods can't read all posts.0 -
Its only libellous if it is not true! All the same, a bit of pressure is applied regarding percieved high levels of charging patients and next thing there is talk of requesting IP addresses, Libellous claims, mod intervention, one 'business' informing another of scurrilious talk on boards. The melodrama of it all......davo10 it wont be long until you have someone to scratch your back for ye.
As for market forces driving costs rather than business setting cost at levels en masse (allegedly hmmm), pure rubbish and a lazy justification.0 -
Its only libellous if it is not true! All the same, a bit of pressure is applied regarding percieved high levels of charging patients and next thing there is talk of requesting IP addresses, Libellous claims, mod intervention, one 'business' informing another of scurrilious talk on boards. The melodrama of it all......davo10 it wont be long until you have someone to scratch your back for ye.
As for market forces driving costs rather than business setting cost at levels en masse (allegedly hmmm), pure rubbish and a lazy justification.
There is absolutely nothing illegal about setting prices high. If you have evidence that a cartel exists, contact the competition authority, if not then you are making unfounded allegations, lazy, stereotypical nonsense.
Markets drive all prices or are you the only person who doesn't understand or believe this. Here it is again, a vendor wants to charge as much as possible, a consumer wants to pay as little as possible, if the vendor charges too much no one buys, if they charge too little there is no profit. The price lies somewhere in between and as no consumer is required to buy a particular product from a particular vendor, the market sets the price. Simples.
As for the "melodrama" just because someone doesn't want to pay the going rate for a service, it doesn't give them the right to post on a forum that they were overcharged and given substandard treatment. Once they make that claim, it is right that the person whose business may be effected be informed of the allegation.
This post wasn't taxing either.0 -
Feck the dentist!
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Where did the op say that he got sub standard treatment? He said he paid x for check up and that the process was so quick he didnt feel the cost was warrented. Nothing substandard whatsoever apart from your ability to read and interpret posts correctly. The same goes for your unnecessary rubuttal on the legalities of high pricing.
Of course I dont have evidence to cartel like practices in dentistry, petrol stations, publicans, mobile phone and ISP's etc. But its doesnt mean that there are not suspicious similarities in pricing and business models and when somone breaks the mould there are attempts to claim that they are substandard. You certainly inferred that the cost and quality of the dentist i use may not be as good value as i suggested albeit a first and not the last misreading of a post.
Your grasp on market forces is too simples (sic) and while not incorrect there are many more variables to consider where the market prices settle.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.0 -
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The same goes for your unnecessary rubuttal on the legalities of high pricing.
Of course I dont have evidence to cartel like practices in dentistry, petrol stations, publicans, mobile phone and ISP's etc. But its doesnt mean that there are not suspicious similarities in pricing and business models.
Cartels in the market place are illegal, you claimed there is one therefore it is important to point out that just because prices are similar doesn't mean there is a cartel.
Suspicious similarities in pricing and business models? Could this be because dentistry is a very small and specialised field of health care and that all clinics tend to be run on similar models because the types of treatments are in fact similar.
Also you don't have to be a brain surgeon to work out that since the Government insisted that prices are displayed, it is much easier for each dentist to see what their competitors are charging.
My explanation of how the market works had to be simple, just not simple enough apparently. Reminds me of something I read on another thread, for those that understand no explanation necessary, for those that do not understand by now, no explanation possible.
Incidentally, the OP claiming that an examination was done in 30 seconds was posted to suggest this was not long enough and that the dentist overcharged him.0 -
Mods I suggest you step in here, OP has stated that he was overcharged for an examination which is claimed lasted only 30 sec. This is libellous, I have informed the dentist concerned, I'm certain he will be in touch with boards requesting OP IP details.
This is the maddest post I've read in a long time.
Almost as mad as the Irish Dental Ascociation getting up in arms with Love/Hate for misrepresenting Irish Dentists... (In a fictional drama)0 -
This is the maddest post I've read in a long time.
Almost as mad as the Irish Dental Ascociation getting up in arms with Love/Hate for misrepresenting Irish Dentists... (In a fictional drama)
I completely agree with you about the irish dental association, that was madness. But Kormack you asked OP to "name and shame" which is a phrase usually reserved for the exposure of people who have done something wrong. The guy named did nothing wrong except charge the going rate, the examination may have felt like 30secs but if the OP has more than one tooth, this would be impossible. If you libel someone by saying they did something wrong and "shaming" them in a way that might have a materiel effect on their business, you can bet your bile duct they are entitled to be pissed off .0 -
Cartels in the market place are illegal, you claimed there is one therefore it is important to point out that just because prices are similar doesn't mean there is a cartel.
Suspicious similarities in pricing and business models? Could this be because dentistry is a very small and specialised field of health care and that all clinics tend to be run on similar models because the types of treatments are in fact similar.
Also you don't have to be a brain surgeon to work out that since the Government insisted that prices are displayed, it is much easier for each dentist to see what their competitors are charging.
My explanation of how the market works had to be simple, just not simple enough apparently. Reminds me of something I read on another thread, for those that understand no explanation necessary, for those that do not understand by now, no explanation possible.
Incidentally, the OP claiming that an examination was done in 30 seconds was posted to suggest this was not long enough and that the dentist overcharged him.
Seriously?! OP states the cost and say ' i thought it was a bit expensive', not that is was expensive or that he was ripped off, he simply expressed an opinion in question form - you go off on one screaming for mods to intervene and add to the suspicion that it was a rip off.
Cartel like scenario is not stating that there is a challangeable cartel, but your post on informing another dentist of this thread just adds to my opinion that the likelyhood of people in your industry agreeing not to undercut eachother and cause a price war is quite possible if not probable. Many other business groups I believe do the same, stifleing the natural mechanisms of the market and create a pricing system at the higher end of the scale that does not benefit the consumer.
Beacuse all dental clinics are run on a similar basis/model does not make that the correct model. I make no secret that i favour any model that benefits the consumer/patient even though I myself work in a 'specialised field of health care' even more crass, questionable and plastic(literally) than dentistry. I know exactly how the system work and how in the past health insurance covered those sundries that loaded the cost of the claim. The fact that insurance companies are not covering costs to the same extent as they used to is, as i'm sure you are aware of, having a knock on effect and whereby now it is possible the consumer is being squeezed for more little by little in hoping they dont notice (my observed opinion just so you are clear). This at a time when insurance premiums are soaring etc etc.
If you polled this thread i'd imagine that you would find it tough to get people to agree with your oversimplified and 'suiting your own position' market forces theory.
The days of people seeing the educated, traditionally the Medics, Teachers, Priests, as demigods are long gone. Ireland has an educated population and dont get fobbed off with excuses such as those you have spun in this thread. This is very different from grinning and bearing it and paying up anyway.
If you had said something like 'well i studied damn hard for 5 years at Uni, and for many years previous to get to Uni, the financial investment i made in my education was significant. Now my practice, insurance costs, staffing and overheads are similar to the effects of inflation of the septic tiger as with everyone else, therefore i feel i am worth what i charge, that i have earned the privilage and if ye dont like it move to Poland then.....or words to that effect.
Time for people to stop patronising and call a spade a spade from Taosigh down.
Frankly i'm bored of intransigence and going round in circles in this thread, and of course i am totally in the right:P0 -
Well do you know what... get said dentist to take said poster to court over a 2 line remark/opinion where he felt a dentist's quick check-up was a tad excessive. I'm sure the judge will take the whole thing very seriously!!I completely agree with you about the irish dental association, that was madness. But Kormack you asked OP to "name and shame" which is a phrase usually reserved for the exposure of people who have done something wrong. The guy named did nothing wrong except charge the going rate, the examination may have felt like 30secs but if the OP has more than one tooth, this would be impossible. If you libel someone by saying they did something wrong and "shaming" them in a way that might have a materiel effect on their business, you can bet your bile duct they are entitled to be pissed off .
If the dentist in question advertised a price for a procedure on his website and applied this charge to a client, then there is no shame as he done exactly what he quoted to do.
I think what I find mad is your melodramatic post about libel and IP addresses over a seemingly harmless remark. Have you heard of Twitter? Every second tweet could be considered libellous in your world.0 -
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for Davo
A patient is asking a dentist his prices.
‘How much for an extraction?’ ‘Seventy,’ replies the dentist.
‘Seventy quid? For a few minutes’ work,’ complains the patient.
‘I can make it last all afternoon if you like,’ replies the dentist.
or
Three ways to keep your teeth:
Brush after every meal, see your dentist every few months, and keep your nose out of other people’s business.0 -
Jeasus,this is some Craic !0
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blingrhino wrote: »Jeasus,this is some Craic !
With 1800 odd views, a good old debate attracted some attention!0 -
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It's a good thread alright, although I think your wasting your time arguing with a dentist about prices.
You are quite right, but our time would be wasted to an equal extent arguing with you that you are overpaid and not worth your wage. Two opposing opinions based on which side of the argument you are on, makes for a debate.0 -
You are quite right, but our time would be wasted to an equal extent arguing with you that you are overpaid and not worth your wage. Two opposing opinions based on which side of the argument you are on, makes for a debate.
Davo, it would be good to hear your own opinion on such things as the costs of running a practice, whether wages of staff pre, during and post 2007/8 influence costs 2014. How you think things will be going forward et al?
In the past I was most definately overpaid, a touch more vocational in my views now days:eek:0 -
i paid 100 euro recently just for an xray with a dentist in co cavan... and 70 euro, a month ago for a check up and clean, from dentist in Meath.. rip off all round0
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You are quite right, but our time would be wasted to an equal extent arguing with you that you are overpaid and not worth your wage. Two opposing opinions based on which side of the argument you are on, makes for a debate.
Good point, but I'm quite willing to admit that I'm currently over paid and certainly not worth my wage, something an Irish dentist would never admit.0 -
i paid 100 euro recently just for an xray with a dentist in co cavan... and 70 euro, a month ago for a check up and clean, from dentist in Meath.. rip off all round
Did the Dentist take the x-ray, then ask you for €100 before opening the door to let you out?
Or, was it say a digital OPT x-ray taken to diagnose a problem like an impacted wisdom tooth, to check for its proximity to the underlying nerves, did he/she examine the x-ray, interpret the information contained therein, diagnose the problem, form a treatment plan, explain the problem found and treatment plan to you and any potential side effects of treatment and then advise you of the best course of action.
The sticker price on one of those bad boys is between €30 and €250k, yes that is a quarter of a million. The one I have cost me a few cent shy of €40k so you bet your ass you pay for having an x-ray taken, the additional cost is for the diagnosis and time taken for the related discussion.0 -
Davo, it would be good to hear your own opinion on such things as the costs of running a practice, whether wages of staff pre, during and post 2007/8 influence costs 2014. How you think things will be going forward et al?
In the past I was most definately overpaid, a touch more vocational in my views now days:eek:
I read this a few days ago and i've been thinking about whether or not to respond, I realize I'm on a hiding to nothing here and setting myself up for more abuse but here is goes.
The costs of providing dentistry have increased significantly since 2008 and the net income of dentists has decreased because of these rises and deminishing patient numbers. I worked in the North and England before I bought a clinic in the late nineties. At the time I bought, I paid twice the yearly gross for the business, that was standard at the time, now dentists can not give their clinics away as no one wants to own one and as a result, clinics are closing. Typically Clinics run on a 15-17% net profit margin so if the clinic owner does a cleaning and charges €80, he/she gets to take home around €12. If the associate does it as happened with the OP, the amount is split 50:50 so each one gets approx €6.
There are only a few items of expenditure that clinic owners can control, materials, laboratories wages and time. We can use cheaper materials and labs ( I know the good labs in Ireland and the bad ones, I know what each one charges as they continually send us flyers/emails with their prices, I know that if a dentist charges a low price for a crown, either the crown was cheap or the patient was treated very quickly to cut down clinical time because their clinical costs would be based on a similar scale to everyone else's ) but if we do, the results are effected, patient satisfaction erodes and we end up having to re-do treatments which involves more time.
Wages in my Clinic have increased approximately 25% since 2008. Good, reliable staff are very hard to find. Long before a patient meets a dentist they will have spoken to the receptionist on the phone and met them when they enter the Clinic, poor staff can reflect badly on the clinic and even if the patient likes the dentist they can end up leaving if the receptionist/nurse was rude/unhelpful to them. I pay my staff well because they are worth it to my business.
Time is crucial, having worked in the NHS in the UK, I know how important the amount of time you spend with a patient can be on the bottom line. In my first job the owner used to book two patients in to every appointment, we would have to see between 40 and 50 patients a day. The faster you can treat a patient, the more patients you see in a day, the more profit is made. I book off 90 minutes for a crown prep and I use a top class lab, I could probably do it in 60 mins, use a cheap lab and still charge the same but I know the result will suffer. I book off 2 hours for second stage molar root canals so I am not rushing treatment. Regularly patients say to me that they got the same treatment for less somewhere else, I say fair enough off you go.
All dental clinics have to be in urban areas, you can have a doctors clinic out in the country in the middle of nowhere but not a dental clinic. Therefore the properties used will nearly always be among the pricier to rent/buy. Since 2008 the value of my building may have gone down but the price I paid for it hasn't. These are commercial mortgages so even though ECB rates may have gone down since then, repayments have changed very little. Postage/electricity/Insurance/Phone/heating costs/Commercial rates etc have all gone up since 2008. Just to give you an example, because of the compressors/suction units/Lighting necessary to run my clinic, my typical electricity bill is €1000 per month. It is not a case that you can easily close a clinic and move down the street just because the landlord wont give you a rent reduction, there is a considerable amount of specialized plumbing/electrical etc work to be done during the set up.
One of the biggest increases is the hike in indemnity insurance (insurance against being sued). Unlike a car insurance policy where if you are a bad driver and make lots of claims, your premium goes up, we have universal insurance premiums which go up dependent on the number of overall claims. Also our indemnity companies are offshoots of medical companies so our yearly premiums are also dependent on what is paid out for medical negligence. As a result of this my yearly premium has gone up by an eye watering 400% even though I have never had a claim made against me.
I am not using this as a way of justifying what people think are high prices, frankly I'm not concerned whether people agree with me or not, my reason for responding to the OP was to inform him that €80 was the going rate and he was not ripped off, but I can tell you I don't offer discount deals because I don't have to. As far as I am concerned I am being paid what the market will bare therefore I am being paid exactly what I am worth, I make no apologies for this. Nesta you said you don't agree with how dentists run their clinics, if you can tell me how to run it any differently, I'd appreciate the advice.0 -
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Thank you for this very informative post. I actually was aware of many of the issues you have outlined which to get you to to explain was lik pulling teeth. You see an explaination in total transparency can go along way. One cost you didnt mention was the decontamination of tools. I have little issue with everythin you posted (except for the question of who would be a dentist) until the very last line! My point was a response to your claim that all dentists use the same model and I stated that just because all use it doesnt necessarily make it the correct model!!!0
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Thank you for this very informative post. I actually was aware of many of the issues you have outlined which to get you to to explain was lik pulling teeth. You see an explaination in total transparency can go along way. One cost you didnt mention was the decontamination of tools. I have little issue with everythin you posted (except for the question of who would be a dentist) until the very last line! My point was a response to your claim that all dentists use the same model and I stated that just because all use it doesnt necessarily make it the correct model!!!
Is there a different model?
Sterilization comes under electricity. The sterilisers themselves are one off payments every couple of years, I have three at €6k a piece, they are beginning to give trouble so I plan to change them in 2016. One item I forgot is of course the very topical, water charges. Clinics use large volumes of water. All my chairs and sterilisers are clean line so I have to use purified water. I have a large industrial water purifier which again uses a lot of electricity and water.
Transparency does not extend to operating costs, no one has a right to know how much my mortgage is nor how much it costs to run my clinic. I wrote the above post out of courtesy, only because I liked the way you asked.0 -
Of course there is no obligation reveal operating costs etc. I am simply saying that more often than not people will accept the cost of services when there is an understanding of why the cost is so. It is often the case of percieved excessive pricing that is the issue and results in mistrust. This is especially the case currently in Ireland. If you take the building industry as an example, without much change in overheads, the cost of say getting an extension built is now more in line with what the normalised is rather than an artificially inflated market. I accept that this is comparing apples with pears, though to the general public who have been stung in the past this may not seem so. I was being quite sincere when I thanked you for your outline.
I dont know of a different model tbh, I am sure there are if one was to do a bit of digging but again my point was more that 'if it aint broke dont fix it' is far too often rolled out as a reason not to change especially in organisations like FAS - and we know how that panned out.
Again I agree with the insurance issue, people need to be aware that frivolous litigation is driving premiums up increasing the cost to the public. Further compounded by the reluctance of insurers to pay out for what is legitimate treatment probably due to to the increasingly litigous society whereby an attempt to sue could actually occur due to post procedure discomfort...why? *Because it was read somewhere on the internet etc. (i'm being a bit frivolous myself here but i'm sure ye get what I mean).
Sterilisation of tools/instruments/equipment can often be sent off site so thats why I mentioned it rather than have the capital outlay. Private hospitals often do this rather than have a T.S.S.U.
As an aside, up until recently decomissioned equipment was sent to Third World countrys and many hospitals and clinics were very greatful. There was nothing wrong with these except that they were superceded. This practice was stopped due to the possibility of being accused of all sorts and of course issues with infection control (gone mad in some instances) so now veterinary practices are laughing as they get the benefit.
*I encountered an individual once who was spending what little money they had seeing a solictor to sue over problems with their foot post-op, the first question I asked was did you follow the instructions given - the answer was 'no! i couldnt be bothered with the crutches, the second question was whether they could prove that there was post op complication eg SSI, again the answer was no. Their solicitor seemed to be seeking a case for which there was none - the attitude of this person was based on the reputation of a certain hospital and that something must have been done during treatment which could result in compensation, they were banking on it too for a holiday!
So next up rip off solicitors that make every other service a rip off! :P0 -
Here we go again.
Mrs bling had a tooth removed that was annoying her for the last while, she had anastetic and while waiting had her teeth descaled and polished.
The bill was €100.
is this good value or the going rate.
incidentently davo it was another dental practice.;)0 -
blingrhino wrote: »Here we go again.
Mrs bling had a tooth removed that was annoying her for the last while, she had anastetic and while waiting had her teeth descaled and polished.
The bill was €100.
is this good value or the going rate.
incidentently davo it was another dental practice.;)
An extraction plus scale & polish for €100, I'd say that's below the going rate. But there is an economy of scale, having both done at the same time takes less clinical time than both done separately so dentist probably gave a reduced price on the normal fee per item charge. I do this myself when doing two fillings at the same time, it takes less clinical time together than separate so I discount the second filling.0 -
I do have another question Davo, again it is not intended to be a loaded question - in the past many dental practices did root canal work themselves, more recently it seems that such work gets referred. Is this down to the facilities/expertise at a local practice or is there a clinical need to refer?
I get the need to refer wisdom tooth extraction as eg in my case both lower wisdom teeth were impacted 'mesial' and the mandibular nerve was too close for comfort to the root left side. Parathesia being the obvious risk (i bottled the extractions and now have very annoying flap of gum that I often squirt saline under) - do such extractions happen under LA or are they always a procedure under GA these days? Therefore not done in a local practice rather than in a hospital or is it specifically to do with individual anatomy?
Not seeking medical advice so dont think boards.ie charters are an issue but PM me if you think its inappropriate!0 -
Root canal treatment is the most difficult and time consuming of all dental treatments particularly molar root canals. It is by far and away the most important because if it doesn't work, that's the end if the line for the tooth. Most dentists will do a very good job on incisors canines and premolars but molars are much more difficult. The roots can be curved and the canals very narrow and difficult to negotiate with a file.
We don't root canal good teeth. Invariably they are heavily filled with extensive loss of dentine which weakens the tooth. Root canal therapy involves taking away more of the tooth so the aims of treatment are to clear the infection, clean, shape, sterilise and then fill the tooth. It is often wise to crown it to protect what's left as it can fracture more easily.
There is nothing more frustrating for both patient and dentist if after all that work, the abscess recurs. For that reason dentists will often refer difficult cases to ensure a more predictable result. Each case is taken on its merits and only the ones beyond the expertise of the dentist tend to be referred.
Endodontists use microscopes during treatment, they cost approximately €20k so not many dentists would have one. The benefit of the microscope is that the Endodontists remove the minimum amount of dentine while doing the treatment tthus retaining as much strength in the tooth as possible.
Root canals are expensive because of the time taken to do them and their difficulty. I book off one hour for the first stage, two hours for the second. I charge €500 for a molar but even at that I would be better off spending that time doing standard fillings.0 -
So having not been to the dentist for........ A long time. I had to go. First visit to Begley on Anne Street with a potential abcess. A true gent.
Xray, clean, cconsultation and polish and 70 quid. Bad news being I need fillings. Good news no abcess.
Considered it pretty good going all things considered.0
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