The majority of Irish people are passive and obedient.

Legs.Eleven

Trigger Happy wrote: »

So who added the word 'majority'?
Do we have a misquoting scandal on our hands?

Oh sorry! Yes, the quote said that. My finger was over that bit.

_Kaiser_

The OP raises a very good point and some of the responses so far have in fact entirely validated his claim IMO.

We've had..

- "Ugh! Politics! No thanks"

- Typically AH attempts at humor/thanks-whoring to deflect the point being made

- Intellectual sounding posts complaining about "smugness" but missing the irony of such a statement completely

- Other random shyte that fails to meaningfully address the point being made

Personally I think it's an extremely worthwhile debate. FF wrecked the country so the electorate punished them at the polls by voting for change and reform (FG's pre-election campaign platform). Instead what did we get? More cronyism, more parish-pump strokes (Reilly), more corruption (Shatter and the Penalty Points scandal), and of course the Irish Water (Hogan) debacle to name but a few - in short, business as usual! Except this time we have an arrogant condescending former schoolteacher lecturing us on TV every few months while he plans his next move to European office.

FG and Labour's greatest achievement in government has been to actually make FF electable again - and I fully expect FF to win the next election if for no other reason than it's their turn again.

But Paddy and Mary Irish voter don't like change anyway, though to be fair the options are limited. FG and FF are only 2 sides of the same coin, the rest are mostly splinter groups of these two (the PD's, the new "Reform Alliance" etc), also-rans (Labour) or groups that will never be more than hangers-on (the Greens, Independents etc), to say nothing of SF which will forever be doomed by its past (even though NONE of the other mainstream parties have a spotless history - the "great" CJH and his arms trial and subsequent rise to the top for example).

While all this goes on of course we sit and whinge about it in the pubs, on forums like this or worry about what our neighbours might be "getting away with" that we're not (as opposed to the keeping up with them mentality of the Good Times). But to be fair, any protests that DO happen are given minimal coverage by the mainstream media or taken over by fringe groups and thus dismissed.

I think our only real option is to grow up and cop the fck on as a nation and accept that we ALL have a part to play in politics and governance. It's NOT just the responsibility of "someone else" to fix it. We've already seen the results of that - in not even 100 years we've managed to destroy the place.
After all the "800 years" and right to Independence stuff the first thing we did was hand over control to the Church - who abused generations of kids and held the social development of the country back for decades - and then the EU who have systematically stripped us of control over our own affairs and sold our children into economic servitude - those who haven't been forced to emigrate as a result of the "austerity for some" policies that FG (helmed by the "deeply madly European" Kenny) have continued to enforce that is!

Alternatively we need to admit that Irish Independence has been a dismal failure and start thinking about what group gives us our best chance in the future - the EU, the US (seeing as we're completely dependent on them for jobs anyway), or the UK (who ironically we still have more in common with culturally than the other two).

Our final option is to resign ourselves to the cycle continuing unabated - with those who have the chance leaving for a better future elsewhere, and the rest of us who either don't care enough, or are tied by commitments to family being marginalised and penalised at every turn so that the gravy can continue to flow at the top.

dxhound2005

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The OP raises a very good point and some of the responses so far have in fact entirely validated his claim IMO.

We've had..

- "Ugh! Politics! No thanks"

- Typically AH attempts at humor/thanks-whoring to deflect the point being made

- Intellectual sounding posts complaining about "smugness" but missing the irony of such a statement completely

- Other random shyte that fails to meaningfully address the point being made

Personally I think it's an extremely worthwhile debate. FF wrecked the country so the electorate punished them at the polls by voting for change and reform (FG's pre-election campaign platform). Instead what did we get? More cronyism, more parish-pump strokes (Reilly), more corruption (Shatter and the Penalty Points scandal), and of course the Irish Water (Hogan) debacle to name but a few - in short, business as usual! Except this time we have an arrogant condescending former schoolteacher lecturing us on TV every few months while he plans his next move to European office.

FG and Labour's greatest achievement in government has been to actually make FF electable again - and I fully expect FF to win the next election if for no other reason than it's their turn again.

But Paddy and Mary Irish voter don't like change anyway, though to be fair the options are limited. FG and FF are only 2 sides of the same coin, the rest are mostly splinter groups of these two (the PD's, the new "Reform Alliance" etc), also-rans (Labour) or groups that will never be more than hangers-on (the Greens, Independents etc), to say nothing of SF which will forever be doomed by its past (even though NONE of the other mainstream parties have a spotless history - the "great" CJH and his arms trial and subsequent rise to the top for example).

While all this goes on of course we sit and whinge about it in the pubs, on forums like this or worry about what our neighbours might be "getting away with" that we're not (as opposed to the keeping up with them mentality of the Good Times). But to be fair, any protests that DO happen are given minimal coverage by the mainstream media or taken over by fringe groups and thus dismissed.

I think our only real option is to grow up and cop the fck on as a nation and accept that we ALL have a part to play in politics and governance. It's NOT just the responsibility of "someone else" to fix it. We've already seen the results of that - in not even 100 years we've managed to destroy the place.
After all the "800 years" and right to Independence stuff the first thing we did was hand over control to the Church - who abused generations of kids and held the social development of the country back for decades - and then the EU who have systematically stripped us of control over our own affairs and sold our children into economic servitude - those who haven't been forced to emigrate as a result of the "austerity for some" policies that FG (helmed by the "deeply madly European" Kenny) have continued to enforce that is!

Alternatively we need to admit that Irish Independence has been a dismal failure and start thinking about what group gives us our best chance in the future - the EU, the US (seeing as we're completely dependent on them for jobs anyway), or the UK (who ironically we still have more in common with culturally than the other two).

Our final option is to resign ourselves to the cycle continuing unabated - with those who have the chance leaving for a better future elsewhere, and the rest of us who either don't care enough, or are tied by commitments to family being marginalised and penalised at every turn so that the gravy can continue to flow at the top.

Why would you find it ironic that we have more in common culturally with the UK than the US or the EU? I didn't realise that there was an EU culture.

KyussBishop

OP: You're not wrong necessarily, but the thread might get somewhere better if some topics outside of 'acceptable discourse' are detailed.

I'm not personally all that sure on what the cause of the apathy in Ireland is - there's certainly a lot of it, but I've found that on some of the more important topics like economics, people are avoidant of it not just because of the FUD surrounding it (particularly the divide/conquer 'public vs private' debates, distracting from more important issues), but because it's a genuinely complicated topic, with a higher learning-curve, and people have no baseline for figuring out truth from bullshít.

Probably the most interesting area of apathy is surrounding corruption: We see reports of it on a regular basis in media outlets, and hints of it throughout all sections of society, but why does nobody ever seem interested in protesting it? (is it not worth protesting?)

Phoebas

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The OP raises a very good point and some of the responses so far have in fact entirely validated his claim IMO.

Some responses on a five page thread entirely validate the claim that the majority of Irish people are passive and obedient?
This thread is getting more and more ridiculous.

_Kaiser_

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Why would you find it ironic that we have more in common culturally with the UK than the US or the EU? I didn't realise that there was an EU culture.

It's ironic insofar as the option of reunification with the UK (as an equal not a subjugated nation) would be opposed by the same sort who would cite the "800 years" argument - but yet follow English football, soaps, shop in Tescos etc

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

OP: You're not wrong necessarily, but the thread might get somewhere better if some topics outside of 'acceptable discourse' are detailed.

I'm not personally all that sure on what the cause of the apathy in Ireland is - there's certainly a lot of it, but I've found that on some of the more important topics like economics, people are avoidant of it not just because of the FUD surrounding it (particularly the divide/conquer 'public vs private' debates, distracting from more important issues), but because it's a genuinely complicated topic, with a higher learning-curve, and people have no baseline for figuring out truth from bullshít.

Probably the most interesting area of apathy is surrounding corruption: We see reports of it on a regular basis in media outlets, and hints of it throughout all sections of society, but why does nobody ever seem interested in protesting it? (is it not worth protesting?)

Corruption has to be proved in court. What is in the papers sometimes are stories about the wages of certain workers and speculation on how they got their jobs. This is not proof of corruption. A hint will not stand up in court.

donegal__road

how do you get 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool?

Ans: just yell "will everyone please get out of the pool.."

harryr711

Phoebas wrote: »

The OP hasn't made a point. He's trying his very best not to.

I have stated that Noam Chomsky's quote can be applied to Ireland, how narrow that spectrum is in Ireland for the majority (and how opinions outside that spectrum are dismissed out of hand), in particular regarding the majority of people for whom the only options are "FF, FG, spoiled vote, no vote" come the next election as in the first post.

This thread is to do with Chomsky's quote and how it applies to Ireland, rather than who I'll vote for in the next GE.

dxhound2005

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's ironic insofar as the option of reunification with the UK (as an equal not a subjugated nation) would be opposed by the same sort who would cite the "800 years" argument - but yet follow English football, soaps, shop in Tescos etc

There isn't any option to "reunify" with the UK.

_Kaiser_

KyussBishop wrote: »

Probably the most interesting area of apathy is surrounding corruption: We see reports of it on a regular basis in media outlets, and hints of it throughout all sections of society, but why does nobody ever seem interested in protesting it? (is it not worth protesting?)

I think the reason behind this is that there is a sizable percentage of the population who would do exactly the same given the opportunity - after all, our TD's are drawn from the masses, not some nobility or royalty. In a way their behavior is merely a symptom of a larger cultural issue.

How many times have you heard of people trying to "get away" with something - whether it's penalty points, social welfare fraud, working cash in hand etc. As I mentioned above there are many people who've gone from competing with theit neighbours in the Good Times to now bothering themselves with what they might be "getting away with" that they aren't - you can see it all the time here in the employed vs unemployed, public vs private sector, unions vs the rest arguments.

dxhound2005

donegal__road wrote: »

how do you get 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool?

Ans: just yell "will everyone please get out of the pool.."

“Laughter is timeless. Imagination has no age. And dreams are forever.”

Walt Disney Company.

Legs.Eleven

It's very hard to vote for someone who doesn't exist yet. I came home to vote for Labour in the last elections and am disappointed with their performance but I really should've known that'd be the case when they went into coalition with FG. I've always voted for them but if I do vote again, it won't be them. I won't be voting in the next elections as I haven't lived there in a long time but if I had to choose, I'd be absolutely stumped. What's the real alternative?

Kaiser1000, you say we all have a responsibility in politics and governance but that's very airy fairy and not very practical. Nice sound bite but we need someone to lead. I'm not a politician, I don't know a huge amount about politics, I'm of average intelligence and I'm an average person but I do want change and am as disheartened as the next person. I hope that the party I vote in will represent me, keep to their original promises and govern the country with the well-being of the citizens in mind but that has never been the case in the history of this state.

How can we, as normal citizens, change that? Forget about the soundbites propagating the necessity to unite and take the responsibility into our own hands etc, what we need is a real alternative and proper leadership. What can we do 'till that comes about because we don't have it now as far as I'm aware.

Edit: Everything above is not intended to be sneery or sarcastic. I genuinely would like to know what we can do as normal citizens.

KyussBishop

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Corruption has to be proved in court. What is in the papers sometimes are stories about the wages of certain workers and speculation on how they got their jobs. This is not proof of corruption. A hint will not stand up in court.

Nonsense - corruption/fraud rarely get prosecuted in this country (and we have the whistleblowers to prove it - like Jonathan Sugarman - where the whistleblower gets implicitly threatened with prosecution, and the fraud left without any real action taken), so it's ridiculous to try and limit discussion to convicted cases.

The public in general, is not naive of this - there's a definite widespread impression of corruption.

KyussBishop

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I think the reason behind this is that there is a sizable percentage of the population who would do exactly the same given the opportunity - after all, our TD's are drawn from the masses, not some nobility or royalty. In a way their behavior is merely a symptom of a larger cultural issue.

How many times have you heard of people trying to "get away" with something - whether it's penalty points, social welfare fraud, working cash in hand etc. As I mentioned above there are many people who've gone from competing with theit neighbours in the Good Times to now bothering themselves with what they might be "getting away with" that they aren't - you can see it all the time here in the employed vs unemployed, public vs private sector, unions vs the rest arguments.

True - I wonder do people in general, realize how self-defeating it is - and wonder if there's a way to turn that around.

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

Nonsense - corruption/fraud rarely get prosecuted in this country (and we have the whistleblowers to prove it - like Jonathan Sugarman - where the whistleblower gets implicitly threatened with prosecution, and the fraud left without any real action taken), so it's ridiculous to try and limit discussion to convicted cases.

The public in general, is not naive of this - there's a definite widespread impression of corruption.

I don't know why you introduced fraud into the discussion. But if it is happening along with corruption then unless you know of some other way to deal with it unless through the legal system then that is the only way it can be proved (or disproved). When you say it is rarely prosecuted do you mean in comparison with other countries, in comparison with the past? Rarely needs to be quantified and defined in this context.

donegal__road

dxhound2005 wrote: »

“Laughter is timeless. Imagination has no age. And dreams are forever.”

Walt Disney Company.

their are countries who's people are more passive and obedient than Ireland's.. I heard that swimming pool joke often in Canada, it is how they see themselves sometimes.

KyussBishop

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

It's very hard to vote for someone who doesn't exist yet. I came home to vote for Labour in the last elections and am disappointed with their performance but I really should've known that'd be the case when they went into coalition with FG. I've always voted for them but if I do vote again, it won't be them. I won't be voting in the next elections as I haven't lived there in a long time but if I had to choose, I'd be absolutely stumped. What's the real alternative?

This is the key point really: We will not get alternatives, unless we create political/protest movements ourselves. We need an entire protest movement I think, in order to actually develop the public interest and political party base, in order to actually form any new parties,that don't get filled up with crackpots or old-hat politicians.

So people need to get out and protest, if they want to see a new viable political party happen - it will be created out of the protest movement that arises.

dxhound2005

donegal__road wrote: »

their are countries who's people are more passive and obedient than Ireland's.. I heard that swimming pool joke often in Canada, it is how they see themselves sometimes.

I doubt if all of the population would see themselves in that light. Even sometimes.

Phoebas

harryr711 wrote: »

I have stated that Noam Chomsky's quote can be applied to Ireland, how narrow that spectrum is in Ireland for the majority (and how opinions outside that spectrum are dismissed out of hand), in particular regarding the majority of people for whom the only options are "FF, FG, spoiled vote, no vote" come the next election as in the first post.

This thread is to do with Chomsky's quote and how it applies to Ireland, rather than who I'll vote for in the next GE.

I didn't ask you who you were going to vote for in the next election. I didn't mention your voting intentions at all. Why are you throwing in that red herring?

I am asking what your opinion is - not what you think Chomsky's opinion might be based on his quote, but what your opinion of your own interpretation of Chomsky's quote is.
Usually in a discussion thread you are expected to give your own opinion on the topic of the thread you start.

harryr711

Phoebas wrote: »

I didn't ask you who you were going to vote for in the next election. I didn't mention your voting intentions at all. Why are you throwing in that red herring?

I am asking what your opinion is - not what you think Chomsky's opinion might be based on his quote, but what your opinion of your own interpretation of Chomsky's quote is.
Usually in a discussion thread you are expected to give your own opinion on the topic of the thread you start.

I did give my opinion, you've just quoted it again. Read the first post again if you're lost.

_Kaiser_

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Kaiser1000, you say we all have a responsibility in politics and governance but that's very airy fairy and not very practical. Nice sound bite but we need someone to lead. I'm not a politician, I don't know a huge amount about politics, I'm of average intelligence and I'm an average person but I do want change and am as disheartened as the next person. I hope that the party I vote in will represent me, keep to their original promises and govern the country with the well-being of the citizens in mind but that has never been the case in the history of this state.

Well firstly I wouldn't be so hard on yourself You think schoolteachers like Kenny, or the Healy-Rae's know anything about politics? All they know is how to line their own nest and look after their mates and family and we've seen the results of that over the years!

The first step I suppose is to stop blindly voting in the same crowd over and over because that's who mammy and daddy voted for, or because "they fixed the road" or "they got me my planning permission" etc - in short, stop treating national politics as local politics.. we have plenty of Councillors for that.

Secondly, research the options and what they're offering and then pressure them to deliver by contacting them to let your feelings on their performance known if they are elected. Protest if necessary. Maybe a reform change in our PR system should be considered to enforce this idea of accountability. Direct Democracy as an example but there are others of course.

As long as ordinary decent people like yourself (and many others) continue to believe that there's nothing they can do to change things then change won't ever happen.

What would be the biggest wake-up call in this country (but it'd NEVER happen) would be if NO ONE turned out for the next election/referendum. Seeing as we don't have a "none of the above" option, it'd be the next best thing but it would shake the political system to its very core.

KyussBishop

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't know why you introduced fraud into the discussion. But if it is happening along with corruption then unless you know of some other way to deal with it unless through the legal system then that is the only way it can be proved (or disproved). When you say it is rarely prosecuted do you mean in comparison with other countries, in comparison with the past? Rarely needs to be quantified and defined in this context.

What I'm getting at, overall, is that there is widespread impression of uninvestigated corruption/fraud (the latter being another type of corruption) in Ireland - and I wonder why there is apathy in the face of this.

You don't need court-case-conviction proof to have this impression, because if that's your baseline for proof for uninvestigated corruption, then it's impossible to ever suspect uninvestigated corruption (because it's uninvestigated...).

Legs.Eleven

KyussBishop wrote: »

This is the key point really: We will not get alternatives, unless we create political/protest movements ourselves. We need an entire protest movement I think, in order to actually develop the public interest and political party base, in order to actually form any new parties,that don't get filled up with crackpots or old-hat politicians.

So people need to get out and protest, if they want to see a new viable political party happen - it will be created out of the protest movement that arises.

I protest here in Madrid but it's always the way: the left protest about some things, the right about others (the left, and a very specific type of left voter, does most of the protesting though). No unity whatsoever. Some change has been brought about through protests though. I suppose in Ireland we're lucky in that we don't have extremes in ideology like here and perhaps we could find it easier to find common causes. I really don't know though.

Karl Stein

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Give me a few names of these intellectuals who normally don't get airtime on regular media outlets.

Just for the purposes of clarity I should have said intellectuals, journalists, commentators and writers that are critical of the establishment/the elite etc. Here are a few:

Glenn Grenwald, Chomsky, Daniel Elsberg, Chris Hedges, Norman Finklestein, Max Blumenthal, Naomi Klien, Larry Wilkerson.

Is it that they never sought airtime or that were they refused when they did? And which media outlets?

If you're really interested in how the mainstream media weeds out dissenters I suggest you watch/read 'Manufacturing Consent'.

Do a little reading around the firing of Phil Donaghue in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Take a look at Operation Mocking Bird .

Phoebas

harryr711 wrote: »

I did give my opinion, you've just quoted it again. Read the first post again if you're lost.

An hour ago you said you hadn't given your opinion, so that's why I'm a bit lost.

harryr711 wrote: »

No, you should read Chomsky's quote and try to understand it. I haven't stated what my political opinion is, I'm purely commenting on the spectrum of acceptable opinion, how narrow that spectrum is in Ireland for the majority, and how opinions outside that spectrum are dismissed out of hand.

So, for clarity, is it your opinion that the majority of Irish people are passive and obedient.?

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

What I'm getting at, overall, is that there is widespread impression of uninvestigated corruption/fraud (the latter being another type of corruption) in Ireland - and I wonder why there is apathy in the face of this.

You don't need court-case-conviction proof to have this impression, because if that's your baseline for proof for uninvestigated corruption, then it's impossible to ever suspect uninvestigated corruption (because it's uninvestigated...).

Get it investigated. Bring your evidence to one of our TD's who delight in highlighting "corruption" if the Gardai won't investigate it for you.

renegademaster

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I protest here in Madrid but it's always the way: the left protest about some things, the right about others (the left, and a very specific type of left voter, does most of the protesting though). No unity whatsoever. Some change has been brought about through protests though. I suppose in Ireland we're lucky in that we don't have extremes in ideology like here and perhaps we could find it easier to find common causes. I really don't know though.

hasn't been a fear of it happening as yet, even the othert day i atended a protest for Margaretta D'arcy and even between her supporters there was fcuk all sight of solidarity for anything/anyone but their own agenda

harryr711

Phoebas wrote: »

An hour ago you said it wasn't your opinion, so that's why I'm a bit lost.


So, for clarity, is it your opinion that the majority of Irish people are passive and obedient.?

An hour ago I said "I haven't stated what my political opinion is, I'm purely commenting on the spectrum of acceptable opinion". I wasn't getting drawn into my politics, just focusing on how the quote can apply to Ireland, and for clarity, once again, I believe it can be applied.

Aidric

KyussBishop wrote: »

We need an entire protest movement I think, in order to actually develop the public interest and political party base, in order to actually form any new parties,that don't get filled up with crackpots or old-hat politicians.

So people need to get out and protest, if they want to see a new viable political party happen - it will be created out of the protest movement that arises.

That supposes that there is a large enough groundswell to precipitate such a movement. If people are generally happy then they are not of a mood for protest or change.

I will be watching with interest the support this new reform alliance manages to gather. It will serve as a barometer of public mood.