The majority of Irish people are passive and obedient.

Aidric

KyussBishop wrote: »

Well, such a movement needs to start somewhere, and needs to gain enough publicity to develop that groundswell itself - it's not just going to happen spontaneously, it's going to need hard work (though I don't know a great deal, about the formation of protest movements).

The Reform Alliance seems to, unfortunately, be (at best) more of the same, so I don't think it will represent the public mood so well.

And where would this new party position itself in the political spectrum? Irish people are by their nature conservative and always deviate to the center right if anything. Will another centrist party offer the type of alternative that you hope for?

KyussBishop

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You're full of impressions and hints and suggestions of widespread this and that. If you have any real information do something with it.

Are you denying widespread corruption in Ireland or not? How much corruption is there in Ireland, in your view?

I'm very much getting the impression you're soapboxing here, solely trying to pour doubt on any suggestion of 'improprietry'/corruption.

Muise...

OP, please stop telling people to read and "understand" an isolated quote without context. I'll read Chomsky on language and linguistics, but his off-road witterings are amateur and only appeal to TED talk type people who want to seem well-read without actually reading.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Another know it all undergrad discovers Chomsky.

Karl Stein

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where is is codified?

Lobbying has rules but it can be little more than a form of corruption. Banking secrecy laws can be used to squirrel away money that would be subject to taxes which is essentially theft from the exchequer. Limited Liability allows people to walk away from economic disasters with their mansions and million dollar pensions.

Property rights are highly developed and the right to challenge them is not, far from it. Consider clerical abuse and the wealth of the RCC and the survivors claims for compensation. Afaic every square centimetre of Church property should have been seized and sold off until every last survivor was generously compensated. Good luck with trying that though.

KyussBishop

Aidric wrote: »

And where would this new party position itself in the political spectrum? Irish people are by their nature conservative and always deviate to the center right if anything. Will another centrist party offer the type of alternative that you hope for?

Center, centre-right, centre-left: All meaningless terms really.

A new party should support socially liberal policies (gay marriage, pro-choice, among more), and economically expansive policies (which are on the left - such as using TAN's to expand public spending), which involves a complete restoration of public services and an end to privatization, and expansion of new services into mental health and other areas - plus a policy framework grounded on a return to full employment, with a jobs program (and a permanent replacement of unemployment, with the jobs program - so instead of people becoming unemployed, they go into that program instead).

I won't fill in the details on the latter here, as it's too big a discussion, but it is all financially enabled by TAN's.

We can pretty much end the economic crisis here in a period of years, and restore full-employment way sooner than that - all without having to leave the Euro/Europe; right now there aren't many who wouldn't vote for that.

Is also the perfect example of the kind of topic that gets kept outside of 'acceptable discourse'.

Phoebas

KyussBishop wrote: »

Are you denying widespread corruption in Ireland or not? How much corruption is there in Ireland, in your view?

I'm very much getting the impression you're soapboxing here, solely trying to pour doubt on any suggestion of 'improprietry'/corruption.

Ireland comes out very well on a world scale and about average when compared with our peers, but we have dropped out of the top 20 least corrupt places (perceived) in the last few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Karl Stein

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Can you please summarise your point instead of using this very obvious deflection tactic?

Sound bites are not adequate to develop an understanding.

Also who are "the elites" who are censoring debate in your little conspiracy world?

Here we go folks, the citing of 'conspiracy theories' in dumb attempt to shut down discussion, silence dissent, and stigmatise views which don't conform.

There are some excellent lectures by Michael Parenti on your very tactic. I'm afraid they're quite long and don't come in Ladybird book versions for people like you.

donegal__road

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I doubt if all of the population would see themselves in that light. Even sometimes.

the Québécois are the exception in Canada. They see themselves as being a bit of a 'rebel state' so to speak. The people are French through and through, there is a large separatist movement in Quebec.

Paulie Gualtieri

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not sure that I would agree with your thesis at all about FF/FG/Spoiled vote/No vote. There are various other options.

Everybody knows there are other options but nobody takes them or at least only a minority do.

Vicious circle comes to mind. Never ending b.S , The best thing to do would be move as far away as possible because nothing is ever going to change .

adrag

KyussBishop wrote: »

Center, centre-right, centre-left: All meaningless terms really.

A new party should support socially liberal policies (gay marriage, pro-choice, among more), and economically expansive policies (which are on the left - such as using TAN's to expand public spending), which involves a complete restoration of public services and an end to privatization, and expansion of new services into mental health and other areas - plus a policy framework grounded on a return to full employment, with a jobs program (and a permanent replacement of unemployment, with the jobs program - so instead of people becoming unemployed, they go into that program instead).

I won't fill in the details on the latter here, as it's too big a discussion, but it is all financially enabled by TAN's.

We can pretty much end the economic crisis here in a period of years, and restore full-employment way sooner than that - all without having to leave the Euro/Europe; right now there aren't many who wouldn't vote for that.

Is also the perfect example of the kind of topic that gets kept outside of 'acceptable discourse'.

Haven't a breeze what your on about me auld flower, but it sounds the right job, put me down for that.just had a smoke so I might have to read it later on

donegal__road

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In Ireland we have ex extremists in politics who in the not too distant past thought it was acceptable to blow up and shoot people who did not agree with them. Or rather arranged to arm others to do the shooting and bombing. You have them in Spain as well.

a bit like what happened during the Civil War in Ireland.

RonnieRocket

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Sound bites are not adequate to develop an understanding.
Here we go folks, the citing of 'conspiracy theories' in dumb attempt to shut down discussion, silence dissent, and stigmatise views which don't conform.
There are some excellent lectures by Michael Parenti on your very tactic. I'm afraid they're quite long and don't come in Ladybird book versions for people like you.

Make your point or kindly GTFO. This is a discussion forum but you keep telling people to read this book and that book instead. Are you going to tell us about the Illuminati next? Or that the Jooos run the world?

adrag

donegal__road wrote: »

the Québécois are the exception in Canada. They see themselves as being a bit of a 'rebel state' so to speak. The people are French through and through, there is a large separatist movement in Quebec.

We have that problem in Dublin,its called cork, boy

KyussBishop

adrag wrote: »

Haven't a breeze what your on about me auld flower, but it sounds the right job, put me down for that.just had a smoke so I might have to read it later on

It's (unfortunately) a tough read, and in that thread I had been refining my narrative as I go, but it all is based from this original article by Rob Parenteau:
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/12/exit-austerity-without-exiting-euro.html

I can try to clarify it further on that thread, if confused about any of it - probably later on though.

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

Are you denying widespread corruption in Ireland or not? How much corruption is there in Ireland, in your view?

I'm very much getting the impression you're soapboxing here, solely trying to pour doubt on any suggestion of 'improprietry'/corruption.

I just had a quick google to see what had been through the courts. Not very much as it happens but this is from 2010 so there may be more. You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process.

http://www.dppireland.ie/filestore/documents/Director's_Speech_at_Burren_Law_School_-_1_May_2010.pdf

Some Statistics
Statistics provided to GRECO and published in their Evaluation Report on Ireland1 show that in the years 2005 to 2008 17 prosecutions were directed under the Prevention of Corruption Acts. Twelve of these were prosecutions on indictment. Ten cases resulted in convictions on indictment, one person was acquitted, and one case could not proceed due to a serious illness on the part of a key witness. Sentences of imprisonment were handed out in four cases, typically in the 18 month to 30 month range. In the remainder there were suspended sentences usually between 6 to 12 months and in some cases a fine. The maximum fine imposed was €20,000. In four cases where I had consented to summary disposal on a plea of guilty such a plea was forthcoming and the cases were dealt with in the District Court. Two other less serious cases were disposed of summarily in the local District Court.
The GRECO Report provides a number of examples of the type of activity involved in these types of cases. One member of the Garda was sentenced to four-and-a-half years’ imprisonment for receiving a bribe amounting to €18,000. One local government official was convicted and sentenced to one year’s imprisonment, but the conviction was overturned and he was subsequently acquitted in a second case.
Another case involved a Chinese national who referred Chinese students who had come to Ireland to study English but did not meet the conditions for visa extension to a Garda working in the Garda Immigration Bureau. Both the Chinese national and the Garda were convicted in relation to bribery in relation to the false stamping of passports. Another case involved a Garda who received a gift in relation to the processing of work permits for foreign nationals. An official of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, was convicted in relation to receiving bribes in return for the issue of residency permits to foreign nationals. Another Garda was convicted for corruptly accepting a gift from a major criminal gang and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years. He served 18 months for the offence. A former Government Press Secretary, having been charged with 16 counts of corruption pleaded guilty to five and was sentenced to two years imprisonment with six months suspended and fined €30,000.
In addition there have been a number of other cases which while not involving corruption directly are perhaps relevant. A T.D. has been convicted under the Electoral Act 1997 for failing to disclose a political donation, a former minister of Government has been convicted for knowingly or willfully declaring false information in relation to his taxation affairs, a local councilor in breach of the ethics legislation as regards rezoning of lands pleaded guilty to seeking to influence a decision of the local council, and another official was convicted of fraud, attempted theft, deception and false accounting for the misappropriation of council funds, and given a one-year jail sentence and fined €75,000, although this conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.

A number of cases are pending before the courts at present, including one where a councilor is accused of receiving bribes in connection with planning decisions and another where a senior official in a semi state body is accused of receiving bribes in connection with the making of grants.

Phoebas

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Here we go folks, the citing of 'conspiracy theories' in dumb attempt to shut down discussion, silence dissent, and stigmatise views which don't conform.

There are some excellent lectures by Michael Parenti on your very tactic. I'm afraid they're quite long and don't come in Ladybird book versions for people like you.

Isn't the 'you're too dumb to understand' tactic just other side of that coin?

Karl Stein

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Make your point or kindly GTFO. This is a discussion forum but you keep telling people to read this book and that book instead. Are you going to tell us about the Illuminati next? Or that the Jooos run the world?

*ignores*

Karl Stein

Phoebas wrote: »

Isn't the 'you're too dumb to understand' tactic just other side of that coin?

I responded in kind. I linked to 'Operation Mocking Bird' which is a relatively short read and a fine example of how what appears to be a free media isn't really. Obviously it just wasn't short enough for some.

RonnieRocket

Charles Rocher wrote: »

*ignores*

Grand...that's usually the sign that you're losing the argument.
You haven't made any points yet, just referenced books that you pretend you've read. I say pretend because you can't even summarise the basic premise of the books.

jonnny68

I'll vote people before profit or Independent for my own peace of mind call them loony lefties or whatever you want , but you won't see them imposing more austerity on people and bailing out banks.

Never in a million years will I again vote for any of the main party's liars crooks and parasites the lot of them, all equally as bad as each other and regardless who gets in it'll be pretty much the same, I'm seriously baffled why the Irish public always vote either FF or FG in, a vicious never ending merry go round, absolutey mind boggling.

Phoebas

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'll vote people for profit or Independent for my own peace of mind call them loony lefties or whatever you want , but you won't see them imposing more austerity on people and bailing out banks.

Are they a new party? I might check them out.

Karl Stein

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Grand...that's usually the sign that you're losing the argument.

All you've done is ignore the points being made in preference of introducing conspiracies, the Illuminati and the Jews.

I'm reminded of this saying.

Never wrestle with a pig, you'll both get dirty but the pig will enjoy it.

donegal__road

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'll vote people for profit or Independent for my own peace of mind call them loony lefties or whatever you want , but you won't see them imposing more austerity on people and bailing out banks.

Never in a million years will I again vote for any of the main party's liars crooks and parasites the lot of them, all equally as bad as each other and regardless who gets in it'll be pretty much the same, I'm seriously baffled why the Irish public always vote either FF or FG in, a vicious never ending merry go round, absolutey mind boggling.

my father voted for them, my grandfather voted for them ... and seeing as I am incapable of independent thought, I will vote for them too.

KyussBishop

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I just had a quick google to see what had been through the courts. Not very much as it happens but this is from 2010 so there may be more. You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process.

...

So again you're putting forward a post you know is dishonest, because you are trying to rebut uninvestigated corruption, by demanding proof that requires investigation of corruption (something I have pointed out twice thus far).

Now you are up on your soapbox, trying to play down all discussion or hint of uninvestigated corruption, using this fallacious method of argument as a base - you are doing this in an intentionally dishonest way as well.

You are also directly lying, by saying "You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process" - so in multiple ways, you're displaying your dishonest intent in argument here, and the methods by which you're trying to smear other posters, and dissuade them from talking about political corruption.

Effectively, you're trying to protect that political corruption, by preventing any discussion of it - in this case you're trying to prevent even the hinting of political corruption.

jonnny68

Phoebas wrote: »

Are they a new party? I might check them out.

Damn autocorrect gone mad O:-)

dxhound2005

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'll vote people for profit or Independent for my own peace of mind call them loony lefties or whatever you want , but you won't see them imposing more austerity on people and bailing out banks.

Never in a million years will I again vote for any of the main party's liars crooks and parasites the lot of them, all equally as bad as each other and regardless who gets in it'll be pretty much the same, I'm seriously baffled why the Irish public always vote either FF or FG in, a vicious never ending merry go round, absolutey mind boggling.

That could be good news for Joan Collins. She might need all the money she can get. Or maybe she wants us to pay for her ill advised venture into the courts.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/state-seeking-costs-against-td-joan-collins-over-her-legal-challenge-29944868.html

cerastes

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'll vote people before profit or Independent for my own peace of mind call them loony lefties or whatever you want , but you won't see them imposing more austerity on people and bailing out banks.

Never in a million years will I again vote for any of the main party's liars crooks and parasites the lot of them, all equally as bad as each other and regardless who gets in it'll be pretty much the same, I'm seriously baffled why the Irish public always vote either FF or FG in, a vicious never ending merry go round, absolutey mind boggling.

slight change, but I agree with what you're saying, FF, FG, Lab,
they will all just say whats required to keep that merry-go-round going.
Irish people seem to think they have to give their vote to one of these or its thrown away, well its thrown away and no hope for change if they keep voting that way.

jonnny68

donegal__road wrote: »

my father voted for them, my grandfather voted for them ... and seeing as I am incapable of independent thought, I will vote for them too.

I'm not sure if this is a pisstake or not but this is in fact actually the mindset of many people in Ireland.

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

So again you're putting forward a post you know is dishonest, because you are trying to rebut uninvestigated corruption, by demanding proof that requires investigation of corruption (something I have pointed out twice thus far).

Now you are up on your soapbox, trying to play down all discussion or hint of uninvestigated corruption, using this fallacious method of argument as a base - you are doing this in an intentionally dishonest way as well.

You are also directly lying, by saying "You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process" - so in multiple ways, you're displaying your dishonest intent in argument here, and the methods by which you're trying to smear other posters, and dissuade them from talking about political corruption.

Effectively, you're trying to protect that political corruption, by preventing any discussion of it - in this case you're trying to prevent even the hinting of political corruption.

You have brought a new element into the discussion "political corruption". Is that different from the criminal offence of Corruption catered for in the Prevention of Corruption Act?

donegal__road

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is a pisstake or not but this is in fact actually the mindset of many people in Ireland.

it is a tongue and cheek reference to the main reason why people in this country will vote one way or the other.. its a slightly cynical comment, tinged with despair

dxhound2005

cerastes wrote: »

slight change, but I agree with what you're saying, FF, FG, Lab,
they will all just say whats required to keep that merry-go-round going.
Irish people seem to think they have to give their vote to one of these or its thrown away, well its thrown away and no hope for change if they keep voting that way.

Are you an Irish person? Is that the way you think?

Phoebas

jonnny68 wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is a pisstake or not but this is in fact actually the mindset of many people in Ireland.

Its not a pisstake; its a smear. Its out of the same 'if you don't agree with me, then your not thinking for yourself' class of smear that the OP in this thread comes from.

Karl Stein

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I just had a quick google to see what had been through the courts. Not very much as it happens but this is from 2010 so there may be more. You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process.

You need political will to tackle corruption which appears glaringly absent.

The number of white-collar prosecutions has fallen dramatically despite an increase in the number of offences. Just 178 convictions were recorded in 2010 compared with 579 in 2003.

Likewise, the capacity of the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation to investigate white-collar crime is limited somewhat given the absence of solicitors or barristers on its staff – and it has just two full-time forensic accountants on its books. Its budget was slashed by 21 per cent between 2008 and 2011.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/elaine-byrne-major-reform-is-essential-to-tackling-whitecollar-crime-29383431.html

If our dear leaders were serious about tackling white collar crime/corruption/fraud there'd be a hundred forensic accountants backed by 5 hundred clerical assistants and a thousand specially trained Gardai.

Nope, we have just two FT forensic accountants.

Aidric

Phoebas wrote: »

Are they a new party? I might check them out.

Isn't that Joe Higgins new party?

Phoebas

Charles Rocher wrote: »

If our dear leaders were serious about tackling white collar crime/corruption/fraud there'd be a hundred forensic accountants backed by 5 hundred clerical assistants and a thousand specially trained Gardai.

Nope, we have just two FT forensic accountants.

Have the Gardai ever asked for the extra 1600 staff or is this just a figure plucked from the air.

donegal__road

Phoebas wrote: »

Its not a pisstake; its a smear. Its out of the same 'if you don't agree with me, then your not thinking for yourself' class of smear that the OP in this thread comes from.

It wasn't really meant to be a smear, and sorry if you picked it up that way.

It is a fact that in Ireland, many voters will vote the way that their fathers voted... simply for that reason. This was the way in my own house for many years. Civil War politics if you like..

There never seemed to be any attempt to think for a while outside the box, or to explore alternatives (ok, there may not have been that many alternatives back in the 70s and 80s) ... it was vote in one direction, or don't vote at all.

And I know that there are many older voters that continue to think that way today.

dxhound2005

Charles Rocher wrote: »

You need political will to tackle corruption which appears glaringly absent.



If our dear leaders were serious about tackling white collar crime/corruption/fraud there'd be a hundred forensic accountants backed by 5 hundred clerical assistants and a thousand specially trained Gardai.

Nope, we have just two FT forensic accountants.

What you presented as facts there is actually an opinion piece in a newspaper from an "Academic, journalist, consultant". This bit in particular does not make sense.

The number of white-collar prosecutions has fallen dramatically despite an increase in the number of offences. Just 178 convictions were recorded in 2010 compared with 579 in 2003.


How can someone know that there have been criminal offences if they have not been prosecuted?

jonnny68

The only people who can change things are us, the Irish public.

But as is always the case it's either FG or FF and another party to bring in as coalition partners who ultimately renege on every single promise they ever made (that'll be Labour) who the Irish public vote into power, time after time.

SF might make inroads but they are pretty similar to FF/FG /Labour despite the spin, in fact they would probably be worse.

If only Independents and people before profit could come together and people gave them a chance we might just see change for the better in Ireland.

adrag

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I just had a quick google to see what had been through the courts. Not very much as it happens but this is from 2010 so there may be more. You are accusing people of corruption without giving them the right to the legal process.

http://www.dppireland.ie/filestore/documents/Director's_Speech_at_Burren_Law_School_-_1_May_2010.pdf

Some Statistics
Statistics provided to GRECO and published in their Evaluation Report on Ireland1 show that in the years 2005 to 2008 17 prosecutions were directed under the Prevention of Corruption Acts. Twelve of these were prosecutions on indictment. Ten cases resulted in convictions on indictment, one person was acquitted, and one case could not proceed due to a serious illness on the part of a key witness. Sentences of imprisonment were handed out in four cases, typically in the 18 month to 30 month range. In the remainder there were suspended sentences usually between 6 to 12 months and in some cases a fine. The maximum fine imposed was €20,000. In four cases where I had consented to summary disposal on a plea of guilty such a plea was forthcoming and the cases were dealt with in the District Court. Two other less serious cases were disposed of summarily in the local District Court.
The GRECO Report provides a number of examples of the type of activity involved in these types of cases. One member of the Garda was sentenced to four-and-a-half years’ imprisonment for receiving a bribe amounting to €18,000. One local government official was convicted and sentenced to one year’s imprisonment, but the conviction was overturned and he was subsequently acquitted in a second case.
Another case involved a Chinese national who referred Chinese students who had come to Ireland to study English but did not meet the conditions for visa extension to a Garda working in the Garda Immigration Bureau. Both the Chinese national and the Garda were convicted in relation to bribery in relation to the false stamping of passports. Another case involved a Garda who received a gift in relation to the processing of work permits for foreign nationals. An official of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, was convicted in relation to receiving bribes in return for the issue of residency permits to foreign nationals. Another Garda was convicted for corruptly accepting a gift from a major criminal gang and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years. He served 18 months for the offence. A former Government Press Secretary, having been charged with 16 counts of corruption pleaded guilt to five and was sentenced to two years imprisonment with six months suspended and fined €30,000.
In addition there have been a number of other cases which while not involving corruption directly are perhaps relevant. A T.D. has been convicted under the Electoral Act 1997 for failing to disclose a political donation, a former minister of Government has been convicted for knowingly or willfully declaring false information in relation to his taxation affairs, a local councilor in breach of the ethics legislation as regards rezoning of lands pleaded guilty to seeking to influence a decision of the local council, and another official was convicted of fraud, attempted theft, deception and false accounting for the misappropriation of council funds, and given a one-year jail sentence and fined €75,000, although this conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.

A number of cases are pending before the courts at present, including one where a councilor is accused of receiving bribes in connection with planning decisions and another where a senior official in a semi state body is accused of receiving bribes in connection with the making of grants.

The few that are done are all for show, ie when someone points to the fact of the lack of prosecution of white collar crime , these cases is wat u will be directed to.like the old saying goes "mountjoy is a place where big criminals/vermin put little criminals/vermin

dxhound2005

jonnny68 wrote: »

The only people who can change things are us, the Irish public.

But as is always the case it's either FG or FF and another party to bring in as coalition partners who ultimately renege on every single promise they ever made (that'll be Labour) who the Irish public vote into power, time after time.

SF might make inroads but they are pretty similar to FF/FG /Labour despite the spin, in fact they would probably be worse.

If only Independents and people before profit could come together and people gave them a chance we might just see change for the better in Ireland.

All hope is not lost. There are hundreds of people on AH with views like yours. If you all stood for election either as independents or in some form of alliance surely the "Irish people" would see how sensible your collective policies are and elect you to form the government. No more property tax or water charges, happy days.

donegal__road

the symbol of England is the rose, and it is governed by the Queen..

the symbol of Ireland is the harp, and it is governed by the pulling of strings.

and on that note, g'day all

Aidric

donegal__road wrote: »

There never seemed to be any attempt to think for a while outside the box, or to explore alternatives (ok, there may not have been that many alternatives back in the 70s and 80s)

There still aren't. Hence the quandry.

dxhound2005

adrag wrote: »

The few that are done are all for show, ie when someone points to the fact of the lack of prosecution of white collar crime , these cases is wat u will be directed to.like the old saying goes "mountjoy is a place where big criminals/vermin put little criminals/vermin

White collar crime is too vague. You and the Bishop can see evidence of widespread corruption and fraud which is going uninvestigated. It can't be that difficult for you to take the evidence of just a few cases to the Gardai or someone like Clare Daly.

Karl Stein

Phoebas wrote: »

is this just a figure plucked from the air.

Yes I just plucked it from the air to make a point.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How can someone know that there have been criminal offences if they have not been prosecuted?

I guess it's a little like a speeding fine. You commit an offence but it hasn't been proved in a court of law.

Anyway the central point is that you need political will to shake things up. After Veronica Guerin was murdered there was much political will and shit got done. Can you imagine the same level of political will underpinning a department fully focussed and well resourced to tackling WCC/fraud?

I can't.

L'Enfer du Nord

Howard Juneau wrote: »

As long as the alternatives to FF & FG are the likes of Ming & Mick and the economically clueless SF there won't be much

I'm amazed how the "economically clueless" label has stuck to SF after recent history. They may well be, but after the effects of FF policies bankrupting the country it seems strange that SF are singled out as "clueless".

dxhound2005

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Yes I just plucked it from the air to make a point.



I guess it's a little like a speeding fine. You commit an offence but it hasn't been proved in a court of law.

Anyway the central point is that you need political will to shake things up. After Veronica Guerin was murdered there was much political will and shit got done. Can you imagine the same level of political underpinning a department fully focussed and well resourced to tackling WCC/fraud?

I can't.

In politics there are very stringent regulations to prevent corruption. But some politicians like any other walks of life may sometimes break the law

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/

One politician is currently awaiting trial on charges connected with claiming phone expenses.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

White collar crime is too vague. You and the Bishop can see evidence of widespread corruption and fraud which is going uninvestigated. It can't be that difficult for you to take the evidence of just a few cases to the Gardai or someone like Clare Daly.

You reckon?

Friend of mine has taken cast iron evidence to the Gardai, and he is still waiting on a decision from the higher levels on IF the case will be taken to court, let along WHEN, and at this stage, the inquiry has been "ongoing" for a number of YEARS. He is under pressure from Revenue, and a number of other state bodies, but cannot finalise accounts for the years in question until a decision is made about these items, as they directly affect the profit and loss of a company.

Depending on the nature of the "offence", a lot of companies just take the hit, and move on, because the hassle of taking it further is going to make them look bad, and end up costing them even more than it already has, as getting back what has been taken, or whatever, is not guaranteed, even if the case is taken to court and proved, the punishment may well not fit the crime in financial terms.

harryr711

harryr711 wrote: »

Noam Chomsky: The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.

---

For most Irish people the spectrum of acceptable opinion is FF and FG. I know many people who have this opinion, and given the almost daily scandals in the media they haven't got a clue what way to vote at the next General Election, but it'll only be one of four options - FF, FG, spoiled vote, no vote.

FF and FG have for a long time been almost one and the same, with only the civil war acting as the dividing line.

If this is the spectrum of acceptable opinion for the majority, then is it unrealistic to expect change and reform in Ireland? Will history just repeat itself ad nauseum?

What stopping you from changing this or stopping you voting different, Noam Chomsky is too much of a conspiracy theorist for my likening. Maybe things are the way there because we like it as it is and we are lazy, not because of a conspiracy to stop debate, we know and can see the contradiction but we make adjustments for them, Look up Slavoj Zizek

Phoebas

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Yes I just plucked it from the air to make a point.

If the point was that levels of corruption are often widely exaggerated then its a point well made. In fact, we score reasonably well in corruption indexes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index