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5starpool

Felexicon wrote: »

Well of course they were a clique. They were a group of mates in a private forum.

Fester, Secret Corner, Cancer? You've really drank the Kool Aid pal.

Anyway I don't want to get dragged in to a childish discussion as the topic needs to be resolved

Surely the last thing boards needs is some close knit communities of like minded people? The very idea that such things exist in an online forum is abhorrent to all right thinking people.

nesf

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite Nesf. The sticky is still there to show examples of speling/grammer*, with the caveat "names if you want". From what I've seen most don't, I never did on those times I got on my OCD high horse, but the option to name names still exists.

SC used to be a lot more cutting and I remember a little uproar from people who didn't like the idea of it, change was forced on the forum though I admit I don't remember the details.

Wibbs

Yep N, see my above edit(I'm gettin slow in my dotage). Interesting some of the names involved in the early days too. However non members names still come up the odd time.

Still, if this is the rogue forum that's been referenced, it's more than a slight exaggeration to suggest that this is close to it's purpose, or it's weekly output.

However when compared to the original reason for intercession into PJF from on high, the comparison seems to holds pretty well, especially if this was a relative one off. EG If you go back three pages from the last post in the SC thread, you see three people being named.


BTW I'm not talking about the PM's being shared and dissected in PJF as that's out of bounds and inexcusable in my humble.

Ken.

I was talking about spell czechs. I hadn't been their in a while. It does seem to be better so I apologise for over stating earlier in this thread.

nesf

ken wrote: »

I was talking about spell czechs. I hadn't been their in a while. It does seem to be better so I apologise for over stating earlier in this thread.

Nah, there was a time when it would fit exactly what you described, it wasn't meant cruelly (hopefully) but users were having their English being put up on display and mocked essentially. It hasn't been like that for a very long time though because they were told to quit it.

Wibbs

ken wrote: »

I was talking about spell czechs. I hadn't been their in a while. It does seem to be better so I apologise for over stating earlier in this thread.

Ah right Ken. No need for apologies IMH, it did look fairly dickish early on so easy enough mistake to make TBH. Now we know anyway(unless there exists another forum).

Though as I suggested if we're discussing the naming and arguably shaming of people in private forums who are members of the wider community and this being so out of bounds as to warrant threats of forum shutdown then rather than apparently a couple of incidences in the PJF forum, then the SC thread in question breaks, or seriously bends that rule for page after page after page right up to today and people are still being named.

Since there's fcuk all point in being the twat pointing out problems without suggestions of solutions so I'd say the simple solution to that one thread in SC of course is just to slightly change the rules and continue on apace, but insist on removal of member names. Simples. That way we can headdesk at grammar faux pas without any accusations leveled of being dicks. A twist on that old saw of attack the post, not the poster.

LuckyLloyd

The mod and admin forums are private forums where posters are discussed positively and negatively. How different is that as a concept really? People will discuss you negatively behind your every day of the week in all walks of life. So ****ing what. Some people will also say nice things about you behind your back that you'll never hear about. The faux outrage at the idea that like minded people may have private forums and *gasp* discuss forums / posters on boards not in those private forums is hilarious to me.

Similarly with the Spell Czech stuff - so people might rip apart your posts from time to time. Meh? I commit a million offenses to the English language each year. If someone wants to point that out why should that be a problem for me? In this specific case, I am very comfortable in assuming that I would have come up once or twice in PFJ. Some members there are friends, some are not. So what? What people say about me is on them rather than on me.

It's all very precious really.

knucklehead6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The mod and admin forums are private forums where posters are discussed positively and negatively. How different is that as a concept really? People will discuss you negatively behind your every day of the week in all walks of life. So ****ing what. Some people will also say nice things about you behind your back that you'll never hear about. The faux outrage at the idea that like minded people may have private forums and *gasp* discuss forums / posters on boards not in those private forums is hilarious to me.

Similarly with the Spell Czech stuff - so people might rip apart your posts from time to time. Meh? I commit a million offenses to the English language each year. If someone wants to point that out why should that be a problem for me? In this specific case, I am very comfortable in assuming that I would have come up once or twice in PFJ. Some members there are friends, some are not. So what? What people say about me is on them rather than on me.

It's all very precious really.

there's a big bloody difference between the mod and admin forums being used to discuss users, and some private forum.

And i'd doubt very much that the difference is for the lulz and titillation of posting peoples PM's.

LuckyLloyd

knucklehead6 wrote: »

there's a big bloody difference between the mod and admin forums being used to discuss users, and some private forum.

And i'd doubt very much that the difference is for the lulz and titillation of posting peoples PM's.

What's the difference? Think about this for a second. In both cases users and posts get discussed and a outside of a freely accessible public space. The point being that everyone should know that all of your public posting is up for discussion in places you don't have access to (unless you're an Admin / Site owner). Why should you care about a difference of it being the Admin forum or PFJ? The concepts are the exact same. If the PFJ lads meet for drinks and discuss your posts or talk about your PMs what do you propose to do to stop that huh?

This shouldn't exactly be mind blowing stuff. Human beings talk about other human beings, and many will say things about people behind their back that they wouldn't be able to say to their face. Again, if someone needs a private space to say something about you they can't raise to your face that's a them issue rather than a you issue. But either way, be it the mod / admin / site owner / pear tree house forum or a 'insert forum x' beers people may discuss the post you made at 2pm on Tuesday.

They may also discuss your PM from last Saturday. :eek: Even if they don't publish the exact quote they may paraphrase it. The horror.

knucklehead6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What's the difference? Think about this for a second. In both cases users and posts get discussed and a outside of a freely accessible public space. The point being that everyone should know that all of your public posting is up for discussion in places you don't have access to (unless you're an Admin / Site owner). Why should you care about a difference of it being the Admin forum or PFJ? The concepts are the exact same. If the PFJ lads meet for drinks and discuss your posts or talk about your PMs what do you propose to do to stop that huh?

It's quite simple to me, even if it isn't to you. The admins are users of the site that have been trusted by the owners of the site to assist in the running of the site. The mods are uses that have been trusted by the admins to assist in the running of the site. If your name or posts come up for discussion in the mod or admin private forums there is one of two reasons. Either you've been passing yourself off as the messiah and are a naughty boy and someone has reported your post, or you are being considered for a mod position.

The members of PFJ (and any other private forum) are NOT poeple who have been trusted by the mods or the admins or the owners to be discussing peoples posts. The implication that is most damning to the users there is the posting of someone's PM. I'd doubt very much that the PM was posted for the users of PFJ to discuss and give advice about it. Nope, i would be strongly of the opinion that it was posted for them to have a laugh and a giggle at the sender. And if you can't see how that's not a very nice thing to do, laugh behind someone's back in private, then i'm glad that i don't know you personally.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This shouldn't exactly be mind blowing stuff. Human beings talk about other human beings, and many will say things about people behind their back that they wouldn't be able to say to their face. Again, if someone needs a private space to say something about you they can't raise to your face that's a them issue rather than a you issue. But either way, be it the mod / admin / site owner / pear tree house forum or a 'insert forum x' beers people may discuss the post you made at 2pm on Tuesday.

They may also discuss your PM from last Saturday. :eek: Even if they don't publish the exact quote they may paraphrase it. The horror.

Yes, people talk about other people. But if i sent you something in confidence, or said something to you in confidence and i found out that you were talking about it with other people who knew of me, but i didn't know, (which, by posting someone's PM is EXACTLY what happened in PFJ) then that is a breach of trust. And again, makes me glad I don't know you in 3D world.

And that PM on saturday was strictly between you and me;)

LuckyLloyd

knucklehead6 wrote: »

It's quite simple to me, even if it isn't to you. The admins are users of the site that have been trusted by the owners of the site to assist in the running of the site. The mods are uses that have been trusted by the admins to assist in the running of the site. If your name or posts come up for discussion in the mod or admin private forums there is one of two reasons. Either you've been passing yourself off as the messiah and are a naughty boy and someone has reported your post, or you are being considered for a mod position.

In the opinion of those mods and admins trusted with access to those private forums. In the opinion of the members of PFJ, you may be a naughty boy. Their space, their community, their opinion.

The members of PFJ (and any other private forum) are NOT poeple who have been trusted by the mods or the admins or the owners to be discussing peoples posts.

You don't need to be trusted by anyone for anything to form a common bond with other people, have opinions and enjoy expressing those opinions. And in any case, absent of a Private forum they'll just discuss you via PM. Or on another platform.

The implication that is most damning to the users there is the posting of someone's PM. I'd doubt very much that the PM was posted for the users of PFJ to discuss and give advice about it. Nope, i would be strongly of the opinion that it was posted for them to have a laugh and a giggle at the sender.

You can't know that for certain though can you? It's likely alright.

And if you can't see how that's not a very nice thing to do, laugh behind someone's back in private, then i'm glad that i don't know you personally.

Yes, people talk about other people. But if i sent you something in confidence, or said something to you in confidence and i found out that you were talking about it with other people who knew of me, but i didn't know, (which, by posting someone's PM is EXACTLY what happened in PFJ) then that is a breach of trust. And again, makes me glad I don't know you in 3D world.

And that PM on saturday was strictly between you and me;)

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What people say about me is on them rather than on me.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Again, if someone needs a private space to say something about you they can't raise to your face that's a them issue rather than a you issue.

The point I am making is not that talking negatively behind people's backs; or analyzing their posts or behaviours without providing a right of reply is ideal; the point I am making is that it is inevitable and will happen anyway in one forum or another. That is the real world.

Ultimately I cannot prevent people talking about me behind my back. As such, I don't worry about it and I'm not surprised by it. Nobody else should either and for yourself you should have been fully aware of it as a possibility:

Dav wrote:

Private Forums:
We give a lot of leeway to Private forums in relation to sticking to site rules. This has given rise to the occasional complication when something from a Private Forum has spilled out into the public eye.The long and the short of it is, once it stays private, the Admins won't get involved. However, Admins do have access to every forum on the site and occasionally dip in and out of some to make sure no one's doing something they shouldn't. So if you really want to have a thread bitching about another member or forum or something like that, it won't be a problem unless it crosses into some of the items listed above for automatic de-modding.

With this in mind, we suggest you don't ask members to report posts in a private forum as it shows up for all Moderators to appear (the Reported Posts forum is a sub-forum of Moderators). You should also be careful when/if you add new members as people sometimes post personal stuff that they may not want known to new comers etc.

knucklehead6

I'm not bothered by it Lloyd, I just don't like it.

And i know that there are people forming opinions of me with regard to my posts on this thread, I know that there are people forming opinions of me based on the fact that I'm one of the mods on a forum on boards where privacy is paramount. So much so that we actively remove lurkers. And I know that people form opinions of me based on the fact that I'm a Liverpool supporter. I know all that and it doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is the fact that the PFJ guys jumped up onto the high horse waffling on about privacy and their community when they have actively engaged in betraying someone else's privacy.

That's two faced. And I don't like that. I'm old enough to know that not everyone is going to like me, no more than I like everyone. I'm also around long enough to know that if I don't like someone I'll let them know. Some might consider that rude. Maybe it is. But it beats the false bonhomie and 2 faced attitude of pretending to like someone I don't.

LuckyLloyd

knucklehead6 wrote: »

What bothers me is the fact that the PFJ guys jumped up onto the high horse waffling on about privacy and their community when they have actively engaged in betraying someone else's privacy.

Well, no not exactly (and I wouldn't waste time dissecting every post from a group of rightly pissed off people to find inevitable flaws in reasoning). Their core issues seem to me to be:

- at the outset of this thread an impression was provided from on high that their Private forums were actually private when it really wasn't the case;
- Beruthiel stomped in and threatened the forum with closure because a mate of hers was being discussed even though the general private forum guidelines from Dav indicate that they weren't doing anything wrong;

The other stuff dragged up about the forum's behaviour or how they have been lacking is designed to muddy the waters of the two realities above, but well they're still there and the second one doesn't appear to have been addressed to the satisfaction of the PFJ members as of yet.

That's two faced. And I don't like that. I'm old enough to know that not everyone is going to like me, no more than I like everyone. I'm also around long enough to know that if I don't like someone I'll let them know. Some might consider that rude. Maybe it is. But it beats the false bonhomie and 2 faced attitude of pretending to like someone I don't.

Well there's something we can wholeheartedly agree on.

KyussBishop

Sure, people talk crap about one another in the real world, and this tends to make a clique prejudiced against someone through groupthink (way more than just through 1on1/PM's) - without that person getting the opportunity to defend themselves.

That's not isolated to the clique, that spills over into the main forum too when those posters interact with whoever they're talking crap about - Boards can't stop that, but does Boards want to be facilitating that? (especially when it can negatively affect the community they're trying to maintain)

Good example of the kind of activity, that can 'ruin a good thing', of private forums being left to their own guidance.

Micky Dolenz

A clique isn't always a bad thing. It's a natural thing for a social species to form.

About the Mod forums being private forums. They are out of necessity. Very rarely are they full of friends shooting the breeze.Most have a friendly atmosphere but we aren't all friends. More often than not they are very work like places where forum news is discussed. I can't recall any users being openly slagged off.

I really don't think mod forums can be compared to social hosted/private forums.

LuckyLloyd

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A clique isn't always a bad thing. It's a natural thing for a social species to form.

About the Mod forums being private forums. They are out of necessity. Very rarely are they full of friends shooting the breeze.Most have a friendly atmosphere but we aren't all friends. More often than not they are very work like places where forum news is discussed. I can't recall any users being openly slagged off.

I really don't think mod forums can be compared to social hosted/private forums.

I'm obviously not suggesting that PFJ and the Mod forum are the same thing. My point is that those who are feigning outrage at the idea that people may have a private space to discuss posters without access to said private space should realise the concept is a cornerstone of how the site operates on a daily basis.

knucklehead6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm obviously not suggesting that PFJ and the Mod forum are the same thing. My point is that those who are feigning outrage at the idea that people may have a private space to discuss posters without access to said private space should realise the concept is a cornerstone of how the site operates on a daily basis.

But there'd be an expectation of posters and their actions being discussed in the mod/admin forums. Not necessarilary in a bog standard private forum though.

Micky Dolenz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm obviously not suggesting that PFJ and the Mod forum are the same thing. My point is that those who are feigning outrage at the idea that people may have a private space to discuss posters without access to said private space should realise the concept is a cornerstone of how the site operates on a daily basis.

But there is a difference between:

"Micky Dolenz got an infraction today for abusing someone and he sent me a pm going crazy, looks like he will start a DRP"

and

"That Micky Dolenz fella got an infraction for being a wanker, delighted, can't stand that prick"

LuckyLloyd

knucklehead6 wrote: »

But there'd be an expectation of posters and their actions being discussed in the mod/admin forums. Not necessarilary in a bog standard private forum though.

That's a pretty silly misconception or oversight though. You should absolutely expect such discussions to be happening in Private forums, I always did anyway.

LuckyLloyd

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

But there is a difference between:

"Micky Dolenz got an infraction today for abusing someone and he sent me a pm going crazy, looks like he will start a DRP"

and

"That Micky Dolenz fella got an infraction for being a wanker, delighted, can't stand that prick"

Meh, either way you don't know about it and can't do anything about it. In the latter example they're thinking it and they can communicate it via PM or on another platform if the rules are changed and their boards.ie private forum is no longer available for the purpose.

knucklehead6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's a pretty silly misconception or oversight though. You should absolutely expect such discussions to be happening in Private forums, I always did anyway.

Not to the level of discussing PM's though.

LuckyLloyd

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Not to the level of discussing PM's though.

As I said earlier, it isn't necessary to post / publish a PM in order to discuss its content. That line in the sand isn't as important as people are making it out to be imo.

Micky Dolenz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I said earlier, it isn't necessary to post / publish a PM in order to discuss its content. That line in the sand isn't as important as people are making it out to be imo.

I agree, But the intent is important. If the PM was revealed, indirectly or not, to be constructive or to simply ridicule someone. I think that's where the issue is.

Ken.

If I got infracted by Micky for being a dick and I PM'd him saying I was a bit pissed when I posted and was sorry. I would put my house on it that Micky (or any other mod/cmod/admin) wouldn't post the details in the mod/admin forum and take the piss out of me in there. The same cannot be said for members of private forums as has been shown.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I said earlier, it isn't necessary to post / publish a PM in order to discuss its content. That line in the sand isn't as important as people are making it out to be imo.

Obviously the site can't do anything about people talking about it, the site has rules and expectations though and one of those is that pm's aren't published. DRP requires consent to do so for that reason. It's acting the dick. Boards obviously can't stop people acting dicks elsewhere!

LuckyLloyd

ken wrote: »

If I got infracted by Micky for being a dick and I PM'd him saying I was a bit pissed when I posted and was sorry. I would put my house on it that Micky (or any other mod/cmod/admin) wouldn't post the details in the mod/admin forum and take the piss out of me in there. The same cannot be said for members of private forums as has been shown.

What about the mod specific forum concerned where a group is in the thick of it together modding a busy forum. Reckon it's only uber professional business speak that goes on in those mod forums? I'd reckon the word 'wanker' has been uttered in such places once or twice, and rightly so!!

In any case, is what you want along the lines of:

- no discussion of posters / posts / incidents on other forums on boards can take place in Private forums;
- even if the incident / posts are between or owned by members of the private forum it isn't the right platform and discussion still can't take place;

Yeah?

How will that be enforced? Should the Admins mod those forums in close detail to track this? Or are you satisfied to change the private forum guidelines and assume HMods will enforce it under pain of sanction should an Admin stumble across it?

And what do you think will happen for Private forums that do like to use their space for such things. They'll stay put and accept it? They'll take the conversation elsewhere? Or do you not care (valid option imo)?

LuckyLloyd

K-9 wrote: »

Obviously the site can't do anything about people talking about it, the site has rules and expectations though and one of those is that pm's aren't published. DRP requires consent to do so for that reason. It's acting the dick. Boards obviously can't stop people acting dicks elsewhere!

I understand it's a rule / expectation. I'm merely suggesting it isn't a particularly important / effective one. PMs get forwarded / discussed in essence / posted elsewhere. Rightly or wrongly.

cyberwolf77

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's a pretty silly misconception or oversight though. You should absolutely expect such discussions to be happening in Private forums, I always did anyway.

Not in the private forum I mod it wouldn't happen. Well, not until I see it and start deleting posts and handing out warnings. I personally stand firmly behind a policy of, "Not a member of our forum, no discussing them in the forum." The only exception is our nominations thread. Even there, I do not allow insults to be thrown about.

LuckyLloyd

cyberwolf77 wrote: »

Not in the private forum I mod it wouldn't happen. Well, not until I see it and start deleting posts and handing out warnings. I personally stand firmly behind a policy of, "Not a member of our forum, no discussing them in the forum." The only exception is our nominations thread. Even there, I do not allow insults to be thrown about.

Good for you man.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I understand it's a rule / expectation. I'm merely suggesting it isn't a particularly important / effective one. PMs get forwarded / discussed in essence / posted elsewhere. Rightly or wrongly.

Banning alcohol or cigarettes for those under the age isn't particularly effective either. It's expected that they aren't published for a few obvious good reasons. That people will gossip elsewhere, well old biddies will curtain twitch even if it is bad manners.