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LuckyLloyd

LoLth wrote: »

I go through random forums at fairly random intervals (usually if I'm at a loose end). I do check that modding is being done by the moderators and if I see an incident that has not been addressed I have asked why in the past, as have the other admins. On more than one occasion I have felt the need to action a post without first bringing it to the attention of the mods of that forum or the category moderator.

we're the site admins. its an unfortunate part of our job description. The same question could be asked of mods by users "do you go through all the threads in a forum checking that users are posting correctly" - answer, not all of them, mods respond to the reported posts and do random dipping when time allows. I'm fairly sure that the admins check forums a lot less frequently than a mod checks threads (or at least I hope thats the case!)

Have you ever felt the need to threaten closure of a forum without first interfacing with the moderators of said forum?

Mitch Connor

LoLth wrote: »

Can we please stop with the speculation and personal attacks? It serves no purpose other than to shine a very unflattering light on the poster and convince me that that's the exact type of user I really dont want to have to listen to..

This is the crux of it. An admin crossed the line.

Getting an admission from any Admin that a line was crossed has been like pulling teeth - it has been excuses and 'we have said we can look at the forum so you can't be annoyed'.

The Admin in question hasn't apologised for over stepping the line and threatening to close the forum for no valid reason, the admin in question has completely ignored the situation showing nothing but contempt for the users in question.

a post from 3 weeks ago was used as justification for threatening closure of the forum. The Admin must surely have been trawling the thread looking for something to pick on for such an action - as the post wasn't reported and shouldn't have come up on their radar.

LoLth

have you read this thread at all?

we already agreed that taking action on the issue was not the right way to go about it. hands up, it overstepped the line.

But there's wrong on both sides here and there's mis-information.

Admins DO and always have had access to private forums and they do, and always have checked at irregular intervals to make sure everything was ticking over.

On a very quick glance I found plenty of incidents in that forum that were contrary to the charter put in place by the hmods. As well as issues that were contrary to the rules of the site - which the hosted forum has to abide by.

and you're right, that quote does sum it up quite well.

Spud83

LoLth wrote: »

An admin crossed a line and posted a warning in a thread, not an infraction, not a card , not a ban. thats it. Its not the end of the world.

That is the first time any sort of wrong doing by the admin has been admitted to. It only took over 24 hours, and plenty of fingering point back the other way, and distraction before its been accepted. Even then its buried underneath a load of tripe basically saying we done yas a favour so get over yourselves already, to basically say what she done wasn't such a big deal.

I still think there should be an explanation about how she came about said post anyway, not for us we are past caring, but for the other private forums so the know exactly what guidelines admins are following when its comes to "private" forums.

Xavi6

Lolth, it may not seem like it but your responses here are appreciated. You've stepped in to try explain something you didn't create, and if I were you I would asking questions of the admin who did cause the problem, namely why they have done a disappearing act and left you to pick up the pieces.

More than anything else, that admin's drop and run action has irked people, and understandably so.

we already agreed that taking action on the issue was not the right way to go about it. hands up, it overstepped the line.

I'll be very interested to see if the admin involved is of the same opinion and can admit as much.

Lovely Bloke

Finally.

LoLth

Spud83 wrote: »

That is the first time any sort of wrong doing by the admin has been admitted to. It only took over 24 hours, and plenty of fingering point back the other way, and distraction before its been accepted. Even then its buried underneath a load of tripe basically saying we done yas a favour so get over yourselves already, to basically say what she done wasn't such a big deal.

I still think there should be an explanation about how she came about said post anyway, not for us we are past caring, but for the other private forums so the know exactly what guidelines admins are following when its comes to "private" forums.

its not the first time, I already said it earlier in the thread (over 12 hours ago at this stage) but thanks for paying attention and thanks for describing my opinion as tripe.

as for finger pointing back the other way, are you saying that there was no wrongdoing AT ALL in that forum? that everything there was in accordance with the site rules and the forum charter you and shiv, as hmods were trusted to enforce?

I've already explained the guidelines the admins use and I have been more than forthcoming when asked a question on that process.

LoLth

Xavi6 wrote: »

Lolth, it may not seem like it but your responses here are appreciated. You've stepped in to try explain something you didn't create,

thank you.

namely why they have done a disappearing act and left you to pick up the pieces.
.

RL concerns. anything more than that is not mine to share and no-one here has any right to demand. I'm not being flippant or dismissive just as honest as I can be.

Xavi6

LoLth wrote: »

RL concerns. anything more than that is not mine to share and no-one here has any right to demand. I'm not being flippant or dismissive just as honest as I can be.

And we all have them BUT, as I said previously, if you're going to drop a bomb like that you should do it at a time when you are around to control the fallout. At 9am or so on a Tuesday she had to know that responses would come quick and fast.

Tbh, if we're getting a collective clip around the ear for for how we've gone about things, either in the forum or here, then there should also be a word in that direction for how poorly it was handled initially and subsequently.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Xavi6 wrote: »

Tbh, if we're getting a collective clip around the ear for for how we've gone about things, either in the forum or here, then there should also be a word in that direction for how poorly it was handled initially and subsequently.

Someone should start a thread in the Feedback forum.

Beasty

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Everything in the forum is/was in line with the charter and rules explained to us. including calling anyone we want a knob head as long as it didn't overspill to the main site.

And how do you prevent something like this spilling onto the main site? Discussing "regular" users in a private forum can taint the views of other posters who read or contribute to that thread. They may change their posting in the main forum accordingly. Indeed such discussion has the potential for posters to gang up on other members in the main forum entirely based on what they've discussed in the private forum. In my mind even if current Hosted Forum rules do permit discussion of posters who are not members of the forum they should be changed to stop it

ShiverinEskimo

LoLth wrote: »

Discuss the issue in a civilised manner or dont post. any more personal attacks will be dealt with as such.

I don't think I've discussed the matter in anything but a civilised manner. If you think otherwise I apologise.

I asked a question repeatedly and your last comment on it before this was that you couldn't answer the question. I was waiting for the person who can.

Now you've admitted an Admin crossed the line so it appears you can answer the question. I would have liked to hear it from Beruthiel herself - if she had the wherewithall to start this it would have been nice to see her finish it and not have you playing janitor. I've never had any dealings with Beruthiel prior to being wrongly infracted yesterday so if it looks personal it's only because Beruthiel made it as such and continues to in her silence.

The admins abhor threads like this for the chaos they typically descend into - and I actually understand why - but as much as it might feel to you that you're banging your head off a wall in dealing with me, I'm on the other side of that wall putting a dent in it too as I am forced to wait for an answer to a straighforward question.

I still look forward to Beruthiel's response - or even Dav's given he weighed in on it yesterday and set the guidelines Beruthiel ignored - however long their real-life stuff might take. I'm in no rush.

Beasty wrote: »

In my mind even if current Hosted Forum rules do permit discussion of posters who are not members of the forum they should be changed to stop it

This is correct. If the rules have changed, the rulebook should be updated. It wasn't and yet I was infracted for breaking a rule that doesn't yet exist. Had the rulebook been updated prior to my infringing post, this discussion would not be happening.

Lovely Bloke

Beasty wrote: »

And how do you prevent something like this spilling onto the main site? Discussing "regular" users in a private forum can taint the views of other posters who read or contribute to that thread. They may change their posting in the main forum accordingly. Indeed such discussion has the potential for posters to gang up on other members in the main forum entirely based on what they've discussed in the private forum. In my mind even if current Hosted Forum rules do permit discussion of posters who are not members of the forum they should be changed to stop it

"The incident" that had the forum on the radar, according to Dav, is exactly as you are describing actually. 5 years ago that scenario played out. the part in bold happened - DeVore, the big boss at the time came down hard on all participants and told us in no uncertain terms that he came this >.< close to closing the forum. He didn't, and we all (we thought) all moved on, with the explicit directive, both from DeV and in Dav's Hosted Moderator guidelines that it was ok to hold and post negative opinions (indeed, think and post that someone is a "knob end" (DeV's word, not ours)), once it was kept in-house.

The Admin action, the calling out of the post, the threat of closure of the private forum came from just such a post. Someone said "Poster X does a thing like a wanker". Thinking it was fine, under not one, but 2 Guidelines.

Seemingly the Admin didn't think, and here we are now.

Nody

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

"The incident" that had the forum on the radar, according to Dav, is exactly as you are describing actually. 5 years ago that scenario played out. the part in bold happened - DeVore, the big boss at the time came down hard on all participants and told us in no uncertain terms that he came this >.< close to closing the forum. He didn't, and we all (we thought) all moved on, with the explicit directive, both from DeV and in Dav's Hosted Moderator guidelines that it was ok to hold and post negative opinions (indeed, think and post that someone is a "knob end" (DeV's word, not ours)), once it was kept in-house.

The Admin action, the calling out of the post, the threat of closure of the private forum came from just such a post. Someone said "Poster X does a thing like a wanker". Thinking it was fine, under not one, but 2 Guidelines.

Seemingly the Admin didn't think, and here we are now.

You should know by now that's not in any way how things stand today from the Thunderdome private forum closing if nothing else; in particiular read Dav's last post. Simply because they "kept it in the private forum" did not in any way excuse the behaviour (which was far worse from what's been shared here I think we can all agree but serves the point that "anything goes in the forum" is not acceptable today).

Lovely Bloke

Nody wrote: »

You should know by now that's not in any way how things stand today from the Thunderdome private forum closing if nothing else; in particiular read Dav's last post. Simply because they "kept it in the private forum" did not in any way excuse the behaviour (which was far worse from what's been shared here I think we can all agree but serves the point that "anything goes in the forum" is not acceptable today).

Wait, what?

We were supposed to read The Thunderdome, to my knowledge nobody in the forum was a regular there, just in case Dav posted a gamechanger?

That's, in fairness, is ridiculous.

I, nor my forum-mates, ever posted in the TD, nor cared about it's demise, nor cared about it's workings.

If the Admins are changing how the site works, or rules are changing, it would be nice if they actually informed the HMods at the very least.

The facts remain that

1. DeVore gave guidelines, which were being adhered to
2. Dav wrote a HMod guide, which was being adhered to
3. An Admin took action outside of those guidelines
4. New information from you (NOT an Admin/Staff) where Dav posts that the rules have changed, in a forum none of us read or care about, but he didn't communicate that to anyone else.

Someone's posting style was called wankerish, in private, and to the best knowledge of everyone in that private forum that was allowed, their mate with special privileges took exception, finally we have Admin saying a line was crossed.

Fratton Fred

Beasty wrote: »

And how do you prevent something like this spilling onto the main site? Discussing "regular" users in a private forum can taint the views of other posters who read or contribute to that thread. They may change their posting in the main forum accordingly. Indeed such discussion has the potential for posters to gang up on other members in the main forum entirely based on what they've discussed in the private forum. In my mind even if current Hosted Forum rules do permit discussion of posters who are not members of the forum they should be changed to stop it

The current Hmods and their predecessors, in fact all users of that particular forum, go to great lengths to ensure that doesn't happen. It is a line we were all very aware of and ensured it was never crossed.

It's a shame, draconian behaviour only serves to drive people away. I know we aren't paying customers, but without users the site is nothing.

ShiverinEskimo

I pay actually. Real money each April.

Others pay by looking at ads. This idea that we get something for free and should be grateful is a convenient myth.

The community is the product, the advertisers the customers. Remove the product, remove the revenue, boards dies. Spare us the charity mentality.

LoLth

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I don't think I've discussed the matter in anything but a civilised manner. If you think otherwise I apologise.

no Shiv, wasnt directed at you at all. you've been more than willing to engage. My comment was targetted at the users that feel a need to drop an opinion regardless of the fact that it doesn't actually help anything and usually just serves to muddy the waters because it sets people on the defensive.

I asked a question repeatedly and your last comment on it before this was that you couldn't answer the question. I was waiting for the person who can.

Now you've admitted an Admin crossed the line so it appears you can answer the question. I would have liked to hear it from Beruthiel herself - if she had the wherewithall to start this it would have been nice to see her finish it and not have you playing janitor. I've never had any dealings with Beruthiel prior to being wrongly infracted yesterday so if it looks personal it's only because Beruthiel made it as such and continues to in her silence.

I said as much yesterday in response to your question. As for waiting for Ber, you are welcome to. As I said, RL takes precedence. You will have to trust me when I say this is not some ploy (as hinted at by some) to drop a bomb knowing the fallout will be in the rearview. Dont take offense or feel that you are being ignored. As I say, there is no way for me to prove this and i am sure some will prefer to believe that I am lying to cover some great evil plot. There's not much I can do about that. What I can do however is ask that people remain civil to one another and to those involved in the discussion or who find themselves the subject of it.

The admins abhor threads like this for the chaos they typically descend into - and I actually understand why - but as much as it might feel to you that you're banging your head off a wall in dealing with me, I'm on the other side of that wall putting a dent in it too as I am forced to wait for an answer to a straighforward question.

fair enough. thats an unfortunate situation. I cannot help you on that. if you are willing to wait then please do so. If not, then I'm afraid the question will just go unanswered. Also, for the record, I dont abhor threads like this, I abhor the chaos and those that take advantage of it to take yet another pot shot for some imagined slight from another life.

I still look forward to Beruthiel's response - or even Dav's given he weighed in on it yesterday and set the guidelines Beruthiel ignored - however long their real-life stuff might take. I'm in no rush.

good to hear. I am sure your patience is appreciated.

Lovely Bloke

Nody wrote: »

Dav's last post.

I've just read this, and actually, nothing approaching the same solar system, never mind ball park, of what is described in there happened in our forum. Not even close.

That was, seemingly, a campaign of disgusting victimisation and bullying.

Christ, the 5-years-ago incident in our forum didn't come close to that.

so, in case anyone is in any doubt - we didn't do anything described in that post.

Ken.

There is another hosted forum where they do nothing but take the p!ss out of others on boards. How come that's allowed?. It might be light hearted but it still goes on.

Fratton Fred

ken wrote: »

There is another hosted forum where they do nothing but take the p!ss out of others on boards. How come that's allowed?. It might be light hearted but it still goes on.

The issue isn't slagging off other users, it was taking the piss out of a mod.

I can only presume users are fair game, Beruthial's friends aren't.

Penn

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The issue isn't slagging off other users, it was taking the piss out of a mod.

What's the difference?

Lovely Bloke

Penn wrote: »

What's the difference?

that's the crux, there is at least one other private forum where ripping the piss out of Boards.ie posters is pretty much the raison d'etre for the forum, but in another private forum a three week old post is rummaged up by an Admin poking around, threats of closure abound. Seemingly the "target" of that post is a mate of the admin, and so here we are.

A whole private forum dedicated to slagging off Boardsies, even non-members, every day, damn near every post in that forum really, and it's kosher.

A different private forum, where that is absolutely not the reason for being, and in fact, the members were told it was grand to do what was done once it was kept within the confines of the Private forum - but nope, goalposts moved without prior notice, Admins poke around, issue threats because of one inocuous post slagging the posting style of a non menber. Some members even stuck up for the guy, others joined in, so it's not as if even the whole forum was having a go at him.

The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems.

Micky Dolenz

What does PFJ stand for?

I have spent far too much time thinking what it could be

ShiverinEskimo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What does PFJ stand for?

Depends on the mood, but this week it's Persevering For Justice.

Boggles

Maybe the person(s) in question thought it stood for Perving For Jollys.

Micky Dolenz

Peace for Jesus.

knucklehead6

People's Front of Judea.

Bunch of Splitters.

LoLth

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

that's the crux, there is at least one other private forum where ripping the piss out of Boards.ie posters is pretty much the raison d'etre for the forum, but in another private forum a three week old post is rummaged up by an Admin poking around, threats of closure abound. Seemingly the "target" of that post is a mate of the admin, and so here we are.

A whole private forum dedicated to slagging off Boardsies, even non-members, every day, damn near every post in that forum really, and it's kosher.

A different private forum, where that is absolutely not the reason for being, and in fact, the members were told it was grand to do what was done once it was kept within the confines of the Private forum - but nope, goalposts moved without prior notice, Admins poke around, issue threats because of one inocuous post slagging the posting style of a non menber. Some members even stuck up for the guy, others joined in, so it's not as if even the whole forum was having a go at him.

The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems.

and thats off point. I have already agreed that the warning was an overstepping by an admin. No-one is arguing that.

what is over the top though is the :

a. claims of complete innocence . I had a quick look and I found plenty more that was more concerning and was against the rules of the site and against the PFJ charter which seems to just be there for decoration because it was not being enforced. am I exaggerating? a very sanitised example:

hmod at the time : I got a PM from user that is not a member here, should I post it for others to see
prior hmod and mod of boards: go ahead. its fine
hmod at the time: posts pm

PFJ members offer opinion on the sender's personality and posting.

thats one of several incidents like that and its not the worst except for the fact that it involved 2 users (an ex hmod/mod and a sitting hmod) that really should have known better. Fred_Fratten and Baldy, I will be happy to send you links to the actual posts if you want to review them yourselves.

the charter has 2 sections where it is stated that mods / moderator decisions are not to be discussed. This was compeltely ignored after it was added by the hmod on 01/04/2009 . This is separate to the section described by Shiv earlier that protects moderator members of PFJ from being questioned.

b. The admin action may have overstepped and may have been over the top for a post that was three weeks old (by the way, which is it? bad that a post from 3 weeks ago was picked up because an admin didnt look for at least 3 weeks or bad that the post actioned was 3 weeks old? you keep referring to the age of the post but previously complained about admins constantly reading the forum... only seeing something that was considered actionable 3 weeks after the fact would tend to support the "admins irregularly dip in and out" assertion rather than the "admins are monitoring everything and reading all our private stuff) - but the reaction here has been completely out of proportion. The anger , personal attacks and general RAAAAAAAAR from some of the members of the forum are way over the top and not a good representation of the calibre of users that are members of the PFJ, many of whom are more than capable of discussing and finding a solution rather than just baying for blood while crying that they are somehow proponents of "justice".


I understand that any group of people that form a private, closed community of their own is going to develope some degree of "us" and "them" but the PFJ shows that being taken to an extreme that was , in my opinion, close to becoming worrying. The language used about some posters or moderators, the links to posts for the rest of "the lads" to backslap , the rounds of congratulations when some agreed "enemy" is put in their place --- very similar to behavior the admins have been accused of again and again without any evidence whatsoever as an example of admins being "bad people" and yet they are doing it themselves? That makes them not only "bad" by their own standards but also more hypocritical than I had previously realised.

I agree that PFJ was not Thunderdome. Nowhere near (sorry Thunderdome fans but personally I really hated that place. I ignored it until it became an issue that could not be ignored because I respect users' right to an opinion but I dont accept a users' right to express that at the expense of another. sometimes common decency has to take precedence).

There are posters that are never going to be satisfied with any future explanation or apology short of full on sepuku by an admin, one or two admins in particular based on their personal preference. I'll be honest, I don't care about them or how they enjoy their time here. I don't give a crap about making their experience more enjoyable because, to me, for them to be happy, the vast majority will be miserable and i cannot understand why , if they hate this place so much, they insist on returning. I usually just ignore posts from such users but honestly, this selective blindness when it comes to reading their own words is getting old.

No more witch hunt. If people want to discuss private forums thats fine. If people just want to vent and post attacks, dont. I've had enough of that and I think I have been more than patient so far.

Beasty

LoLth wrote: »

hmod at the time : I got a PM from user that is not a member here, should I post it for others to see
prior hmod and mod of boards: go ahead. its fine
hmod at the time: posts pm

Well if that's the sort of thing going on in there the place should be closed down