Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 mod warning post #5144

Quazzie

tayto lover wrote: »

The fact is that we are no nearer to winning the EPL than we were last year.
We continue to fall a long way behind City and Chelsea.
Even if we improve against the lesser teams we are still not near the top teams.
In actual fa
ct we are still in essence fighting for fourth yet again. When we get fourth it just means that we go through the group again but no further.
I don't think we have improved much at all but hopefully we will win the FA Cup and that will please a lot of our fans. For me nothing short of an EPL will suffice.
The Cup means very little to me and is not really important. In fact a few years ago Man Utd thought so much of the FA Cup that they didn't play in it and instead went off to play some postmen in Melbourne if memory serves me right.

We spent most of this season on top. We spent most of last season in fifth. It sure feels like we're closer.

tayto lover

Quazzie wrote: »

We spent most of this season on top. We spent most of last season in fifth. It sure feels like we're closer.

Maybe so or maybe it was down to the way the fixtures fell but if we are still fighting for fourth then we did not improve.
It's no good leading until 3 or 4 out in the Grand national either.

Spanish Johnny

tayto lover wrote: »

That might be correct but if so they have treated the paying fans like dirt if they deliberately led them on with lies. It wouldn't explain why they said the budget and player-buying was down to Wenger alone though. AND if he played along with all the lies then he is part of the problem.

Agree with ya on the first part Tayto.

On the second it only increases my admiration of the man.

I think it has to acknowledged that the Wenger defenders so to speak know his faults. He can be terribly frustrating.

However that is also in context. He deserves the chance to manage the Club back at its financial peak given the sacrifices he and the club made. Were it not for his vision and commitment (and many others) id shudder to think the shape we would be in 4/5 years ago.

He needs to change some things but the bottom line is a lot of us believe none of these failings warrant the sack or him to move on.

Anyone that thinks we are not closer to the League and have progressed is living in denial.

Take 2 performances out of this season and look at it? Look whats happening off the field.

Huge commercial deals kicking in now for the first time, stadium debt more manageable, smashed our transfer record and most telling of all - 4/5 senior players signing new long term contracts. For the first time since when?? Think about these things for a second.

Look at the direction of the Club now not a result in isolation. How can anyone suggest its not on a great path??

tayto lover

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

Agree with ya on the first part Tayto.

On the second it only increases my admiration of the man.

I think it has to acknowledged that the Wenger defenders so to speak know his faults. He can be terribly frustrating.

However that is also in context. He deserves the chance to manage the Club back at its financial peak given the sacrifices he and the club made. Were it not for his vision and commitment (and many others) id shudder to think the shape we would be in 4/5 years ago.

He needs to change some things but the bottom line is a lot of us believe none of these failings warrant the sack or him to move on.

Anyone that thinks we are not closer to the League and have progressed is living in denial.

Take 2 performances out of this season and look at it? Look whats happening off the field.

Huge commercial deals kicking in now for the first time, stadium debt more manageable, smashed our transfer record and most telling of all - 4/5 senior players signing new long term contracts. For the first time since when?? Think about these things for a second.

Look at the direction of the Club now not a result in isolation. How can anyone suggest its not on a great path??

Again I am not suggesting Wenger be sacked.
I am not interested in who manages the club as long as it is being run well and is SUCCESSFUL ON THE FIELD and that the teams play with guts, passion and do their best. That is not always happening now. Business transactions mean little to me and should not take up the manager's time. He should be kept away from the business side and be allowed concentrate on what happens on the field in my view and maybe we would do better. I don't recall Bertie Mee or George Graham who were also successful managers in my time being very involved in the business end of the club.

Alfred Borden

cant wait for this game tomorrow tbh need to put this game behind us

tayto lover

Raf32 wrote: »

cant wait for this game tomorrow tbh need to put this game behind us

Yeah we must make sure we come fourth :rolleyes:

Spanish Johnny

tayto lover wrote: »

Again I am not suggesting Wenger be sacked.
I am not interested in who manages the club as long as it is being run well and is SUCCESSFUL ON THE FIELD and that the teams play with guts, passion and do their best. That is not always happening now. Business transactions mean little to me and should not take up the manager's time. He should be kept away from the business side and be allowed concentrate on what happens on the field in my view and maybe we would do better. I don't recall Bertie Mee or George Graham who were also successful managers in my time being very involved in the business end of the club.

Tayto that is absolute head in the sand stuff?? Of course they werent involved in the business end of the Club because they didnt have to be.

The move to the Emirates is a monumental one in Arsenal's history. It necessitated Wengers interest. You might have no interest but it has had and will continue to have a huge impact on the teams fortunes.

Im glad we play tomorrow too. Id say the players itching for it.

Ches

Sagna
Mert
Verm
Gibbs

Flamini
Kallstrom

Ox
Rosicky
Cazorla

Sanogo

Id like to see that. Any thoughts??

greendom

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah we must make sure we come fourth :rolleyes:

So you'd rather we lost or drew ?

emergingstar

What's this they way ye fixtures fell talk

We were top after 19 games and the last time I checked that means we played every other team

Mr Blobby

Any predictions for tomorrow?
I'm going to go with 2-0.

Spanish Johnny

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

Id like to see that. Any thoughts??

Ches Fabianski

Sagna
Mert
Verm
Gibbs

Flamini
KallstromArteta

Ox Gnabry
Rosicky
Cazorla

Sanogo

Can't see Kallstrom start. Ox & Chesney should sit out a game, they were awful on Saturday.

Mr Blobby

Mr Blobby wrote: »

Any predictions for tomorrow?
I'm going to go with 2-0.

5-0

tayto lover

greendom wrote: »

So you'd rather we lost or drew ?

Well to be honest I think we will finish fourth. Fourth will generate more money which won't be spent and we'll crash out of the CL after the group stages next season again.
However my rolleyes was for the fact that there seems to be very few posters concerned about the rubbish that was served up yet again on Sat. They would rather turn a blind eye to that and concentrate on getting on with being fourth. Even Wenger is doing it. No conference yesterday.
Maybe if we keep shutting our eyes things will improve and the EPL might magically appear at the Emirates.

greendom

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ches Fabianski

Sagna
Mert
Verm
Gibbs

Flamini
KallstromArteta

Ox Gnabry
Rosicky
Cazorla

Sanogo

Can't see Kallstrom start. Ox & Chesney should sit out a game, they were awful on Saturday.

Arteta needs a rest. Was poor on Sat and simply couldn't cope with Matic or Luiz

tayto lover

emergingstar wrote: »

What's this they way ye fixtures fell talk

We were top after 19 games and the last time I checked that means we played every other team

Adam Scott was 1st half-way through the fourth round of the golf at the weekend. Where did he finish?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Well to be honest I think we will finish fourth. Fourth will generate more money which won't be spent and we'll crash out of the CL after the group stages next season again.
However my rolleyes was for the fact that there seems to be very few posters concerned about the rubbish that was served up yet again on Sat. They would rather turn a blind eye to that and concentrate on getting on with being fourth. Even Wenger is doing it. No conference yesterday.
Maybe if we keep shutting our eyes things will improve and the EPL might magically appear at the Emirates.

What is the alternative?

gnfnrhead

Deleted User wrote: »

Ches Fabianski

Sagna
Mert
Verm
Gibbs

Flamini
KallstromArteta

Ox Gnabry
Rosicky
Cazorla

Sanogo

Can't see Kallstrom start. Ox & Chesney should sit out a game, they were awful on Saturday.

Dropping your keeper for one game isnt usually a good idea. Szczesny will be back for City so he should play here to get his confidence back.

Dont think Arteta should start either. He was pretty hopeless against Chelsea. Flamini alongside Rosicky or Kallstrom depending on who plays ahead of them.

CatInABox

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

Agree with ya on the first part Tayto.

On the second it only increases my admiration of the man.

I think it has to acknowledged that the Wenger defenders so to speak know his faults. He can be terribly frustrating.

However that is also in context. He deserves the chance to manage the Club back at its financial peak given the sacrifices he and the club made. Were it not for his vision and commitment (and many others) id shudder to think the shape we would be in 4/5 years ago.

He needs to change some things but the bottom line is a lot of us believe none of these failings warrant the sack or him to move on.

Anyone that thinks we are not closer to the League and have progressed is living in denial.

Take 2 performances out of this season and look at it? Look whats happening off the field.

Huge commercial deals kicking in now for the first time, stadium debt more manageable, smashed our transfer record and most telling of all - 4/5 senior players signing new long term contracts. For the first time since when?? Think about these things for a second.

Look at the direction of the Club now not a result in isolation. How can anyone suggest its not on a great path??

Very much agree.

It is a common myth about Arsenal that I hear fairly often that Arsenal had money in the years after the stadium move, and one that is very much in the wrong.

I've gone through my explanation of it before, but I think it needs to be brought up again.

At one stage during those years, Arsenal were weeks away from entering administration. This is evidenced by the board selling a section of old Highbury development at a large write down, just to get liquid capital in fast. This was also during the downturn, which should set off alarm bells for everyone. If you have a load of property, why sell it below price, during a depressed market? They must have been truly desperate for money.

The finances were also constrained massively for other reasons. Every year, Arsenal had to pay off the stadium debt, but even more than the payments on that, they had to maintain 25-30 million in liquid capital, else they would breach the terms of the loan, and once you do that, it would be very easy to get into a spiral of debt, with penalty payments causing you to breach the terms further, etc.

If that's all true (and it is), why would the board and Wenger continue the charade of telling all and sundry that there was money to spend? Sad to say really, but they did lie to the fans. It was really the only prudent thing to do. For every fan that understands that a well run, financially secure club is the most important thing, there's at least 3 that don't care about that and only want trophies and success. If you lose them, there'd be a lot less money coming in.

So in order to keep all the fans on side, Arsène had to agree with the board to deceive the fans, and they had to do it in a way that meant the fans would blame the manager rather than the club itself. Therefore, at every opportunity, the board would say that spending was down to the manager, that there was money there, etc. And Arsène , time after time, would take the blame.

It's pretty obvious to me that Arsène Wenger won't leave Arsenal. When he steps down eventually, he will take up a role some place within the Arsenal hierarchy, on the board somewhere. He definitely has the qualifications for it. He may go to manage France, but he'd be back after that.

I don't know of any other manager that has done as much on and off the pitch for a single club in the modern era as Arsène has done.

Sorry for the massive post. It's been building up over the last few days. Please note that I also realise that Arsène is not perfect, but this lambasting him for the last few years frustrates me because it is without context, either willfully or accidentally.

Marty McFly

tayto lover wrote: »

Adam Scott was 1st half-way through the fourth round of the golf at the weekend. Where did he finish?

Yea but Tayto he was just counter acting the claims by some that the only reason were ever top was because we had a handy run of games etc which was clearly not true.

Yea we have fallen down in the 2nd half of the season at times and do seem to lack bottle for high pressure games and that should be looked at but that also doesn't mean we should loose the run of ourselves and start making false claims either

symbolic

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe if we keep shutting our eyes things will improve and the EPL might magically appear at the Emirates.

What should the people of forum " Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 mod warning post #5144" do?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the alternative?

Well if the manager came out and apologised to the fans for the pi** poor performances (his and the team's) yet again against any team that mattered this year it would be a start. Our fans pay the highest ticket prices in the EPL.

gosplan

Deleted User wrote: »

No doubt Wenger proved his genius but are we talking past tense now? I realise you would pay a pretty penny for a Vieira or Petit these times if they were around now but I think we were successful when we were tougher and more robust. No way would even this currently Chelsea midfield have carved our team from 98-02 open like that, hell even with Essien, Lampard and Makelele they wouldnt have came close. My point is whether we have suffered in our pursuit of a certain lighter type of player in recent times?

Honestly, and I really don't want to go into it too much, I think that Wenger's whole ethos needs really good players to top all the other teams. The invincibles were a rediculously good collective but they were rediculously good bunch of individuals. I think the comment from Vieira in the Keane documentary about Wenger's style of trusting his players to express themselves being both a strength and a weakness was really interesting. If you get the invincibles to express themselves, you get an unbeaten season. If you get a midfield of Rosicky, Arteta, Ox etc to express themselves against Chelsea you get hammered.

But no-one is paying any attention to what Wenger has changed about his philosophy. We've seen a huge shift towards defensive solidity in the last year and it's working. I don't think he's blind to the fact that he needs a new method when facing the top sides and I think it would be the next obvious area of focus.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Well if the manager came out and apologised to the fans for the pi** poor performances (his and the team's) yet again against any team that mattered this year it would be a start. Our fans pay the highest ticket prices in the EPL.

Honestly, what difference would that make?

symbolic

tayto lover wrote: »

Well if the manager came out and apologised to the fans for the pi** poor performances (his and the team's) yet again against any team that mattered this year it would be a start. Our fans pay the highest ticket prices in the EPL.

I guess the fans will speak with their feet.

tayto lover

symbolic wrote: »

What should the people of forum " Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 mod warning post #5144" do?

I know a few who e-mailed the club to complain a few times this season.
It might not do much good but they felt better for having done so.

What good does it do to say "just put it behind us and move on to the next game" ? Especially when the problem is not going to be fixed a la the City and Liverpool games.

greendom

tayto lover wrote: »

Well to be honest I think we will finish fourth. Fourth will generate more money which won't be spent and we'll crash out of the CL after the group stages next season again.
However my rolleyes was for the fact that there seems to be very few posters concerned about the rubbish that was served up yet again on Sat. They would rather turn a blind eye to that and concentrate on getting on with being fourth. Even Wenger is doing it. No conference yesterday.
Maybe if we keep shutting our eyes things will improve and the EPL might magically appear at the Emirates.

I'd put money on Arsenal spending more this Summer than last.


As to supporters reaction, what are we supposed to do? Constantly harping on in the negative doesn't work for me. I prefer to look ahead with optimism. If that means resetting expectations so be it.

tayto lover

greendom wrote: »

I'd put money on Arsenal spending more this Summer than last.


As to supporters reaction, what are we supposed to do? Constantly harping on in the negative doesn't work for me. I prefer to look ahead with optimism. If that means resetting expectations so be it.

Well that has really worked well in the last 9 years.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

What good does it do to say "just put it behind us and move on to the next game" ? Especially when the problem is not going to be fixed a la the City and Liverpool games.

greendom wrote: »

As to supporters reaction, what are we supposed to do? Constantly harping on in the negative doesn't work for me. I prefer to look ahead with optimism. If that means resetting expectations so be it.

Precisely what I was going to say.

We follow the rise and fall of a season, but as a supporter, there is zero point in wallowing.

There's always another game, that's why I'm an optimist.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Button, do you not acknowledge the difference between scraping third/fourth on the last day of the season compared to coasting to a champions league spot while having an outside shot at the title? Sure, numbers wise it would appear we haven't improved much over the last 2 seasons but football is not arithmetic, context has to be brought into consideration too and I don't think it's right to say this season is not objectively better than the last two.

The only difference has been the scheduling of fixtures so far. I made that point months ago and was laughed out. Yet I was right. But the excuses keep repeating themselves.

CatInABox wrote: »

At one stage during those years, Arsenal were weeks away from entering administration. This is evidenced by the board selling a section of old Highbury development at a large write down, just to get liquid capital in fast. This was also during the downturn, which should set off alarm bells for everyone. If you have a load of property, why sell it below price, during a depressed market? They must have been truly desperate for money.

When was that?

symbolic

tayto lover wrote: »

I know a few who e-mailed the club to complain a few times this season.
It might not do much good but they felt better for having done so.

What good does it do to say "just put it behind us and move on to the next game" ? Especially when the problem is not going to be fixed a la the City and Liverpool games.

Yeah that's fair enough actually.

I guess everyone just has different ways of dealing with the disappointments.
When there is very little people can do to influence something it's fair enough imo to deal with it whatever way they see fit. I don't think there's a right or wrong approach. The majority here probably sit watching a stream on the internet, powerless.

Maybe we need an optimistic and a pessimistic (not the right term) thread

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Precisely what I was going to say.

We follow the rise and fall of a season, but as a supporter, there is zero point in wallowing.

There's always another game, that's why I'm an optimist.

So we win tomorrow night and we're the best thing since sliced bread until the next 6 goal drubbing because nothing has changed when it matters. Well if that's what keeps us happy then continue on as is. Hope is our saviour.

greendom

tayto lover wrote: »

So we win tomorrow night and we're the best thing since sliced bread until the next 6 goal drubbing because nothing has changed when it matters. Well if that's what keeps us happy then continue on as is. Hope is our saviour.

It's called self-preservation. Alternatives would be suicide or stop supporting Arsenal.

greendom

tayto lover wrote: »

Well that has really worked well in the last 9 years.

Plenty of good moments in the last 9 years. Could have done much better of course but if I'd got no enjoyment for that length of time I wouldn't bother.

Mickeroo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only difference has been the scheduling of fixtures so far. I made that point months ago and was laughed out. Yet I was right. But the excuses keep repeating themselves

What you said there didn't really answer my question and seems to assume finishing roughly 20 points off top needing a win on the last day to secure CL football is a given?

CatInABox

Deleted User wrote: »

When was that?

Will try and find the article from that time.

Here's a couple to start with that make reference to it, not sure if they are behind a paywall or not.

Football clubs follow Arsenal into property development

Arsène’s austerity (An excellent read)

tayto lover

greendom wrote: »

Plenty of good moments in the last 9 years. Could have done much better of course but if I'd got no enjoyment for that length of time I wouldn't bother.

Fair enough but it's not good enough for me. Fed up with promising seasons and then ending up fourth.

rob316

While I think it would be best for Arsene to depart and move the club on I really think a top striker is the difference. You only have to look at Liverpool to see what a top class strike force does. When was the last time ye had a top striker excluding RVP? Henry probably.

One thing ye really lack too is a leader on the pitch, where is your Kompany, Terry or Gerrard?

The biggest thing I see wrong with Wenger is his insistence on playing the same way all the time. It makes it easier for teams to prepare when they play ye. Ye turned up to play Chelsea just the same as Liverpool and Chelsea did exactly what Liverpool did. Pressed ye high up the pitch, gained possession and pass the ball behind your defence.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

What you said there didn't really answer my question and seems to assume finishing roughly 20 points off top needing a win on the last day to secure CL football is a given?

If anything I'd say securing 4th last season showed a bit of grit, even if it was a lovely run of fixtures that helped, not something that's been shown this season. There's still plenty of time to slip back as far as we were last season as well.
The season's over before my Paddy's Day hangover is gone. Well, assuming we don't have a complete collapse til the end of the season. If we go on a run like 10/11 (9 points in the last 8 games) we might get some excitement afterall.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Fair enough but it's not good enough for me. Fed up with promising seasons and then ending up fourth.

What can you do though? Stop supporting the team?

Imagine how any of the other bottom 16 teams supporters feel!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything I'd say securing 4th last season showed a bit of grit, even if it was a lovely run of fixtures that helped, not something that's been shown this season. There's still plenty of time to slip back as far as we were last season as well.
The season's over before my Paddy's Day hangover is gone. Well, assuming we don't have a complete collapse til the end of the season. If we go on a run like 10/11 (9 points in the last 8 games) we might get some excitement afterall.

I'll be honest and say I think it's perverse that a supporter would see that as exciting.

greendom

tayto lover wrote: »

Fair enough but it's not good enough for me. Fed up with promising seasons and then ending up fourth.

Always next year and still a cup final to look forward to this season - hopefully !

You giving up then?

jonneymendoza

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

I thought they got paid enough not to need rotation?

i thought players cant play more then 1 match a week?

So what is it then? cant rotate? unable to play 1 match a week? which is it?

make a decision

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

What can you do though? Stop supporting the team?

Imagine how any of the other bottom 16 teams supporters feel!

We can do very little but the season ticket holders can do a lot.
Why they haven't done so already is a mystery.
Maybe they believe all the promises of big spending we get year after year.
Anyway as the song goes "What's another Year".

jonneymendoza

Deleted User wrote: »

What can you do though? Stop supporting the team?

Imagine how any of the other bottom 16 teams supporters feel!

the other 16 teams dont expect there team to win the League or basically compete with the big teams!

tayto lover

greendom wrote: »

Always next year and still a cup final to look forward to this season - hopefully !

You giving up then?

I'll never give up but neither will I settle for mediocrity.

CatInABox

CatInABox wrote: »

Will try and find the article from that time.

Here's a couple to start with that make reference to it, not sure if they are behind a paywall or not.

Football clubs follow Arsenal into property development

Arsène’s austerity (An excellent read)

First one is paywalled, second one says nothing new. All I could find was that some properties were sold at a 20% discount, representing a total "loss" of 4% of income, pretty piss-poor management if that was enough to put them in danger of administration. And last I checked the chances of a company making £50million profit in the last 6 years going into administration is pretty low.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll be honest and say I think it's perverse that a supporter would see that as exciting.

What the **** are you on about? It wouldn't be exciting going into the last day needing a result and getting it?

jonneymendoza

jonneymendoza wrote: »

And be able to play for more then once a week without moaning about fatigue and ****

jonneymendoza wrote: »

tiredness? they get ****ing paid 100k a week whilst many of us here takes us 5+ years to earn that amount whilst working alll ****ty hours 5-6 times a week?

You dont see Messi complaining

jonneymendoza wrote: »

wenger overplayed walcott imo when he came back from injury. he needed some rest inbetween games but played 7 games in a row.


we need to learn how to rotate our midfield more often and we can as we have lots of midfielders(well we use to as now half of them are injured!)

jonneymendoza wrote: »

i thought players cant play more then 1 match a week?

So what is it then? cant rotate? unable to play 1 match a week? which is it?

make a decision

I believe it was you getting the points confused. Which is it?

Mickeroo

Deleted User wrote: »

What the **** are you on about? It wouldn't be exciting going into the last day needing a result and getting it?

Reminds me of that old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times" :pac:

Mr Blobby

tayto lover wrote: »

I'll never give up but neither will I settle for mediocrity.

I wouldn't call challenging for the BPL and winning the FA Cup mediocre.