Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14 mod warning post #5144

Paulegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Once he finds his feet i think he will be. he comes across as a real gent in interviews and has really fitted in with the rest of the squad. Really want him to succeed because he is not just a fantastic footballer but a seemingly terrific guy

i think he seems like a genuinely nice player. i do think he can be one of the best when he settles. at arsenal i think he will have a chance to be not just one player of a squad like he was at madrid and instead have a team virtually built around him. i think the arsenal move will either make or break him but id lean more on the side of it will probably turn him into a world class player. i hope he fulfills his potential. its good for the league. besides i want liverpool to be playing agianst the best no excuses then ala united

Paulegend

Skylinehead wrote: »

Ozil for 42m was an absolute bargain, especially when you consider Bales pricetag.

i think we will agree on that lol

Just thinking of the Giroud situation and a similar anecdote given by Tony Cascarino on Podge and Rodge show one night a few years back regarding his Ireland playing days. He snuck a girl back to the hotel and Jack found out about it so he had to confess next day. Jack naturally gave him a b0llocking and as Cass was walking off Jack said .....

"Tony.....'old on.......Did she av Big Tits??...Oh i do love big tits"

He'd be delighted with Ollie's bit on the side

Spanish Johnny

Good positive article here if anyone has the time:

http://www.7amkickoff.com/2014/its-the-end-of-the-arsenal-as-we-know-it-and-i-feel-fine/

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Poldi is the best, wish he would get his game more:

dvemail

Really annoys me how Ozil gets so much flack. Last night he was a basically makeshift left back as Monreal may as well have not been on the pitch.
When he did have the ball he did his best to run forward with it but due to him having no support he would soon have 3 Bayern players surrounding him. You watch him when he is on the ball, he is just so far ahead of everybody else in terms on control and passing. As soon as we get some speed back into our team he will run riot.

cson

I do like Arseblog but I feel he really does go out of his way at times to put a positive slant on things - the red card being the latest one - "that rule needs to be looked at".

I'd bet anything had it been Neuer a fraction off that time and cleaned Chamberlain instead of Szczesny and Robben then the thinking would be along the lines of tough titty, thems the rules.

Mr Blobby

Paulegend wrote: »

i think Gerrard is top class but do i think he is world class??? maybe not anymore. but he is putting in the same stats at ozil

i just think that for his price he is not world class.

Yeah lets compare a player who's spent his whole career playing in the same league and same team.. To a player moving to a different league,country,team and pretty much everything else.

Also price shouldn't indicate how could a player is.. The price we payed is irrelevant.

Mickeroo

cson wrote: »

I do like Arseblog but I feel he really does go out of his way at times to put a positive slant on things - the red card being the latest one - "that rule needs to be looked at".

I'd bet anything had it been Neuer a fraction off that time and cleaned Chamberlain instead of Szczesny and Robben then the thinking would be along the lines of tough titty, thems the rules.

You're probably right, though if you take the confirmation biase out of it I think there is a good objective case to be made for the rule to be different for goal keepers.

I always get the impression he reads this thread as he always seems to address the exact stuff that get's talked about in here. Then again, that's probably true of every arsenal forum.

emergingstar

Every other fan I talk to is slating ozil

All I say is I'm gonna remember this conversation

Paulegend

Mr Blobby wrote: »

Yeah lets compare a player who's spent his whole career playing in the same league and same team.. To a player moving to a different league,country,team and pretty much everything else.

Also price shouldn't indicate how could a player is.. The price we payed is irrelevant.

why is price irrelevant??

when andy carroll went to liverpool was price irrelevant??

how about bekhem then?? he maintained his class when he went to madrid. as did ronaldo. as did cesc going to barca.

they all cost big bucks and lived to their names.

if suarez was sh1te in his first 6 months at liverpool then he would have been slated also

ronjo

Paulegend wrote: »

why is price irrelevant??

when andy carroll went to liverpool was price irrelevant??

how about bekhem then?? he maintained his class when he went to madrid. as did ronaldo. as did cesc going to barca.

they all cost big bucks and lived to their names.

if suarez was sh1te in his first 6 months at liverpool then he would have been slated also

Is the argument you are trying to make that he isn't world class? If so, what on earth as price tag to do with it?

gnfnrhead

emergingstar wrote: »

Every other fan I talk to is slating ozil

All I say is I'm gonna remember this conversation

Not slating him, but he isnt much use when we are stuck on defense. With the play we play we need pretty much everyone to be able to get involved. Özil doesnt seem up to the defensive side of things.

Hopefully he can put a bit more effort into it in future, as otherwise there are no complaints.

Mr Blobby

Paulegend wrote: »

why is price irrelevant??

when andy carroll went to liverpool was price irrelevant??

how about bekhem then?? he maintained his class when he went to madrid. as did ronaldo. as did cesc going to barca.

they all cost big bucks and lived to their names.

if suarez was sh1te in his first 6 months at liverpool then he would have been slated also

You're using price/cost to gauge a player's ability.. Which is just wrong.
The only thing price gauges is how valuable the player was at the previous club.

You mention Beckham,Ronaldo etc and how they did when they moved clubs. Yet you seem to forget that Ozil moved from Werder Bremen to Madrid for only €15M which Is hardly a *World class fee* and when he did join Madrid he was a huge success.

Paulegend

ronjo wrote: »

Is the argument you are trying to make that he isn't world class? If so, what on earth as price tag to do with it?

well price tag would determine the expectancy that he is world class


andy carroll to liverpool 35 million. you would expect he is going to be world class. but if andy carroll went to liverpool for 8-10 million you would thiunk he was a decent signing regardless of how little he scored. he would be regarded as a great option to have.


ozil to arsenal for 40+ million you would assume he will be world class. if he went to ye for 20 million (not saying thats his worth) then he would be regarded as a great signing.


coutinho is being loved by liverpool fans. he cost 8 million. if he cost us 20+ million he would be slated and regarded having paid over the odds.


price of the player means everything


is Rooney a great player?? yes

is he worth 300k a week??? hell no

would he be considered a great player for your team to have at those wages and a 30 million price tag on top of that??? not even in a alternative reality where ferguson is a liverpool legend

Paulegend

Mr Blobby wrote: »

You're using price/cost to gauge a player's ability.. Which is just wrong.
The only thing price gauges is how valuable the player was at the previous club.

You mention Beckham,Ronaldo etc and how they did when they moved clubs. Yet you seem to forget that Ozil moved from Werder Bremen to Madrid for only €15M which Is hardly a *World class fee* and when he did join Madrid he was a huge success.

thats my point though

if he went to madrid for 70 million the gauge used to measure his success would have been way harsher

and by the way im not slating him. he would walk into the liverpool team

Mr.Micro

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Not slating him, but he isnt much use when we are stuck on defense. With the play we play we need pretty much everyone to be able to get involved. Özil doesnt seem up to the defensive side of things.

Hopefully he can put a bit more effort into it in future, as otherwise there are no complaints.

He is clearly lacking confidence at the moment. There is a lot of pressure on him. Some new additions or getting Ramsey back and we will see Ozil get better as the burden will be shared. We can still do it at the Allianz in Munich.

.jacksparrow.

Sometimes I feel arsenal fans don't deserve players like Ozil.

gosplan

Paulegend wrote: »

well price tag would determine the expectancy that he is world class


andy carroll to liverpool 35 million. you would expect he is going to be world class. but if andy carroll went to liverpool for 8-10 million you would thiunk he was a decent signing regardless of how little he scored. he would be regarded as a great option to have.


ozil to arsenal for 40+ million you would assume he will be world class. if he went to ye for 20 million (not saying thats his worth) then he would be regarded as a great

Arggghhhhh. Stop putting forward random opinions about the nature of 'world class' like you're quoting facts.

It's a concept for idiots, seriously.

And your logic is sooo flawed and contradictory it's rediculous.

Paulegend

gosplan wrote: »

Arggghhhhh. Stop putting forward random opinions about the nature of 'world class' like you're quoting facts.

It's a concept for idiots, seriously.

And your logic is sooo flawed and contradictory it's rediculous.

where have i contradicted myself??

im not slating anyone. stop taking my comments so personally

Skylinehead

Whether a player is world class or not has absolutely zero to do with their price tag.

gosplan

Paulegend wrote: »

where have i contradicted myself??

im not slating anyone. stop taking my comments so personally

I get annoyed by people making up pointless debate as they go. It's not personal though.

Soups123

Paulegend wrote: »

well price tag would determine the expectancy that he is world class


andy carroll to liverpool 35 million. you would expect he is going to be world class. but if andy carroll went to liverpool for 8-10 million you would thiunk he was a decent signing regardless of how little he scored. he would be regarded as a great option to have.


ozil to arsenal for 40+ million you would assume he will be world class. if he went to ye for 20 million (not saying thats his worth) then he would be regarded as a great signing.


coutinho is being loved by liverpool fans. he cost 8 million. if he cost us 20+ million he would be slated and regarded having paid over the odds.


price of the player means everything


is Rooney a great player?? yes

is he worth 300k a week??? hell no

would he be considered a great player for your team to have at those wages and a 30 million price tag on top of that??? not even in a alternative reality where ferguson is a liverpool legend

Price tag means nought when determing world class. World class means nothing, every second person has a different opinion on it, there is no absolute definition.

I don't know what the constant reference to Liverpool players has to the overall argument, use examples from big clubs with big players it might carry more weight but again every mans determination of world class is different there is no calculation or absolute its decided purely on opinion and in football thats as loose as a whores flangina

gnfnrhead

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Sometimes I feel arsenal fans don't deserve players like Ozil.

Best fan in the world right here. :rolleyes:

gosplan

Soups123 wrote: »

Price tag means nought when determing world class. World class means nothing, every second person has a different opinion on it, there is no absolute definition.

I don't know what the constant reference to Liverpool players has to the overall argument, use examples from big clubs with big players it might carry more weight but again every mans determination of world class is different there is no calculation or absolute its decided purely on opinion and in football thats as loose as a whores flangina

He's a Liverpool fan that doesn't like Arsenal.

.jacksparrow.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Best fan in the world right here. :rolleyes:

What's wrong?

Why the roll eyes.

I just meant some of our fans are out of order with their criticism of Ozil.

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

emergingstar

Looking podolskis post it looks like ozil knows the fans are on his back

gnfnrhead

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

What's wrong?

Why the roll eyes.

I just meant some of our fans are out of order with their criticism of Ozil.

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

Wasnt aware we were not allowed call players on areas they need to improve just because they are big names. Henry was often called on his habit of drifting out wide. Didnt do him any harm.

.jacksparrow.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Wasnt aware we were not allowed call players on areas they need to improve just because they are big names. Henry was often called on his habit of drifting out wide. Didnt do him any harm.

A bit of support might go a longer way than getting on his back.

It's his first season, look at hazard last year compared to this year.

Marty McFly

emergingstar wrote: »

Every other fan I talk to is slating ozil

All I say is I'm gonna remember this conversation

Exactly had a debate with a Arsenal fan in work today who was ranting and raving calling him lazy and picking out the Liverpool game, yea because Ozil was the only player to under perform in that game, he really lost it and started talking nonsensical when I said you may criticise the performance but can't call him lazy he covered more ground than any Bayern player last night.

He seems to be the in player to criticise much like Ramsey was before him.

Alfred Borden

I dont think many fans are slating Ozil because he is a bad player. Its quite the opposite we know how good he can be and its just frustrating not seeing him reach those levels. I have criticized him in the past but only because of the disappointment of not seeing the player im used to. But when he comes good (which he will, he is a top 10 player in the world) its going to be such a joy to watch.

emergingstar

Marty McFly wrote: »

Exactly had a debate with a Arsenal fan in work today who was ranting and raving calling him lazy and picking out the Liverpool game, yea because Ozil was the only player to under perform in that game, he really lost it and started talking nonsensical when I said you may criticise the performance but can't call him lazy he covered more ground than any Bayern player last night.

He seems to be the in player to criticise much like Ramsey was before him.

I won't even mention last night he wasn't bought to be a LB

Generally he has been below par but so far he still has what 10 assists and I'm sure a lot of pre assists too

If he is doing this when of form imagine what he will do when he settles and we give him the tools

Kirby

Play him centrally. It's that simple.

Give him 360 degrees of options when he has the ball, and have him press the opposition when they have the ball, but not have to track back...letting him drift into good positions to receive the ball when the team wins it back.

Players like Ozil, Mata and Silva are limited by playing them out wide. Even the best managers make this mistake by trying to shoehorn them in.

wandatowell

People should just leave Ozil do his thing. Its his first season in the Premiership for heavens sake.

Wolf Club

Ozil was awful last night, but I think he has been made a scapegoat of somewhat. Some of our other players were terrible as well! The difference is, since his dip in form everything he has done has been criticised considerably due to his price tag and the reputation of being a world class player he brought to the club.

Was he any worse last night than he was when Madrid got beaten 5-0 by Barca? Or last season when Dortmund tore them a new one? I doubt it, but in those two cases there would have been less blame put on him personally.

Hyzepher

I find it funny that fans from other clubs have opinions in here.

Too quick to say our players are overrated, that we'll implode and finish down the league, we need a striker, we need a defender, we need ...

Yet take the league, FA Cup and CL as a snapshot in time without any knowledge of the season so far and the casual observer would have more to say about City, Utd and Liverpool then they would about us.

Why is a small string of average results more telling than a long drawn out series of bad results?

Why are City in 3rd position if they are so much better than anyone else?
Why are Liverpool fighting for 4th if they are scoring so many goals and have the SAS up front?

Why? Because football is more than the sum of its parts.

You can't beat all the strong teams and say you are the best when you go out and drop points against the lower placed teams!
You can't simply beat one team by a few and say that you have a right to finish above them, especially when you don't repeat the result a week later!
You can't discount any team that has the ability to stay top of the league for a lengthy period simply based on the results of a few games!

The Arsenal we have now are a squad of believers. It hurts when they under-perform as they expect to win. The fact that we expect them to win shows how much the team have come on in the last 12 months.

We've had a tough run of games and we have another tough run coming up but we've performed better than 18 other clubs this far - some of which still feel the need to tell us we're crap.

It's laughable really.

.jacksparrow.

For so long everyone was waiting for Wenger to make a big record signing.

Ozil was this, that's some pressure, let's give him a bit of space and time to perform.

bad2dabone

i'll give Ozil all the time he needs. We all know he's quality, everyone does. It's upsetting that he's not living up to his billing, but he does need more movement around him. He's low on confidence, the peno miss really underlined it. Then flamini having a go at him for not tracking properly. Wenger said Ozil was still shaking his head 10 mins later. He needs a break, maybe a few days off with the mrs would do him good.

The pressure at the emirates nearly broke Gervinho, look how well he's doing now. I'd hate for the stadium to turn on Ozil. He's down right now, as supporters we should support him and let his form come back naturally without putting too much pressure on the guy.
Next year he'll be better and hopefully we'll have a striker and a Theo for him to aim at. Gnabry's a rocket and will be another year older and stronger, and the Ox too.

Lots to be positive about despite the disappointment of last night.

emergingstar

Hyzepher wrote: »

I find it funny that fans from other clubs have opinions in here.

Too quick to say our players are overrated, that we'll implode and finish down the league, we need a striker, we need a defender, we need ...

Yet take the league, FA Cup and CL as a snapshot in time without any knowledge of the season so far and the casual observer would have more to say about City, Utd and Liverpool then they would about us.

Why is a small string of average results more telling than a long drawn out series of bad results?

Why are City in 3rd position if they are so much better than anyone else?
Why are Liverpool fighting for 4th if they are scoring so many goals and have the SAS up front?

Why? Because football is more than the sum of its parts.

You can't beat all the strong teams and say you are the best when you go out and drop points against the lower placed teams!
You can't simply beat one team by a few and say that you have a right to finish above them, especially when you don't repeat the result a week later!
You can't discount any team that has the ability to stay top of the league for a lengthy period simply based on the results of a few games!

The Arsenal we have now are a squad of believers. It hurts when they under-perform as they expect to win. The fact that we expect them to win shows how much the team have come on in the last 12 months.

We've had a tough run of games and we have another tough run coming up but we've performed better than 18 other clubs this far - some of which still feel the need to tell us we're crap.

It's laughable really.

Excellent post sir

Post more often

salmocab

Not an Ozil post, but wondering what people think we need to do over the summer with regards the squad, Fabianski is leaving and Viviano loan is up? so we need at least 1 and possibly 2 GKs. Verm is possibly going to move on and we are already a bit short at CH so again would probably need a pair. Sagna is likely going too so a RB is a must too. Think we need a left winger and surprisingly I think we need another CM which at the start of the season I was worried about keeping all the ones we have happy and obviously we need more firepower up front so a CF or two will probably be needed. Plus we could possibly lose another couple of players to surprise transfers. Thats possibly 8 or 9 signings needed admittedly quite a few of them are squad type players but thats a lot of signings. A couple of those places might be filled by youth players Zelalem etc. What do you all think? Who should we be after given we are not looking for marquee signings in all these position or am I way off with our needs?

Spanish Johnny

I don't think anyone wants to get on Ozil's back but equally some posters on here are hyper sensitive to any justified criticisms people have too. I have posted the below before and it is relevant:

We’re allowed to criticise Mesut Ozil…
Sometimes it feels as if we’re so eager for our record signing to do well that anything approaching criticism of his performance is deemed a kind of blasphemy. Equally, the tiniest contribution is hailed as a game-changer.

I don't think anyone should slate him or judge him too early but people are entitled to point out some things that frustrate them and can back it up.

I saw him in the flesh against Man United and I could see how much he needs more pace around him. I thought he played well enough lately actually. I don't think he was horrific last night as maybe some have said. Hopefully he gets a rest now and comes back firing again soon with Ramsey, Ox and Sanogo to give him more options.

Mickeroo

salmocab wrote: »

Not an Ozil post, but wondering what people think we need to do over the summer with regards the squad, Fabianski is leaving and Viviano loan is up? so we need at least 1 and possibly 2 GKs. Verm is possibly going to move on and we are already a bit short at CH so again would probably need a pair. Sagna is likely going too so a RB is a must too. Think we need a left winger and surprisingly I think we need another CM which at the start of the season I was worried about keeping all the ones we have happy and obviously we need more firepower up front so a CF or two will probably be needed. Plus we could possibly lose another couple of players to surprise transfers. Thats possibly 8 or 9 signings needed admittedly quite a few of them are squad type players but thats a lot of signings. A couple of those places might be filled by youth players Zelalem etc. What do you all think? Who should we be after given we are not looking for marquee signings in all these position or am I way off with our needs?

2 CB, 1 RB, 1 Striker (in the 50m pice bracket) and maybe a pacey winger to provide proper cover if Walcott gets injured.

Edit: Oh yeah and a back up goalie obviously.

bad2dabone

i think he'll do the following:

promote Jenks to starting rb with possibly an addition - someone like Corchia? and have Bellerin as the understudy.
A lot of people will be upset initially as jenkinison can look lost sometimes but I think there's a chance he can make it.
as for GK's probably get a backup keeper from somewhere, Fabianski is a smashing number 2, but too good to be number 2. Probably promote martinez to number 3.
need a new CB or 2. We've no youth CB's good enough.
As for Midfield, more game time for Zelalem/gnabry in the middle, and potentially think about signing a replacement for the ageing arteta in the deeper midfield position.
I think we'll get Draxler.
Probably see Poldi sold, i'll be gutted.
And we do need reinforcement up front - but so do most teams. A striker won't be easy to come by!

Spanish Johnny

salmocab wrote: »

Not an Ozil post, but wondering what people think we need to do over the summer with regards the squad, Fabianski is leaving and Viviano loan is up? so we need at least 1 and possibly 2 GKs. Verm is possibly going to move on and we are already a bit short at CH so again would probably need a pair. Sagna is likely going too so a RB is a must too. Think we need a left winger and surprisingly I think we need another CM which at the start of the season I was worried about keeping all the ones we have happy and obviously we need more firepower up front so a CF or two will probably be needed. Plus we could possibly lose another couple of players to surprise transfers. Thats possibly 8 or 9 signings needed admittedly quite a few of them are squad type players but thats a lot of signings. A couple of those places might be filled by youth players Zelalem etc. What do you all think? Who should we be after given we are not looking for marquee signings in all these position or am I way off with our needs?

2nd Goalkeeper

Seamus Coleman
Winston Reid
Another centre half

Lars Bender

Pedro/Kevin Mirrallis

Top Striker with pace a la Cavani.

That's all I want.:o

bad2dabone

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

2nd Goalkeeper

Seamus Coleman
Winston Reid
Another centre half

Lars Bender

Pedro/Kevin Mirrallis

Top Striker with pace a la Cavani.

That's all I want.:o

i'd be over the moon with that.

wandatowell

*Seamus Coleman is playing right midfield nowadays too





*According to my mate, I wouldn't be trusting him for info though.

emergingstar

My prediction for summer


Goalie
2 CBs we won't no any of these names

Bender
Draxlar

emergingstar

I think sagna will stay

I would be replacing him though

Godge

Paulegend wrote: »

to be honest saying that wilshere and ox are unproven is a fair comment. both have loads of potential to be world class players but neither are anywhere near that. the very same as sterling and coutinho or even jumanji at united are nowhere near it. they all could go on to be world class players unlike cleverly but it will take years before they become that.

none of the mentioned players will be world class before they are 24/25. none of them are in the messi/ronaldo bracket. if you asked a fan about any of them in italy spain or germany they wouldnt have a clue who you are talking about. the same way we dont all talk about Iker Munian or Marco Fossati. if they become world class it will most likely be around the age of 27/28 and in a major final or something. wilshere will probably be engands best player at a euros or a world cup or something. or else sterling will be scoring goals for fun all of a sudden. these are when players like this become world class. after years of playing at the highest level and then reaching their peak and actually making a world class difference to the team they are playing with. even sturridge who is in world class for is not world class. if he does this for another full season then he will be getting there but a one and a half season run doesnt make you world class.

anyone who talks about these players being close to the world class braket right now has no idea what they are talking about. the same people who actually think ozil and rooney are world class. the same people who think that sturridge is world class. the same people who ever thought michael owen was world class and not just top class

Paulegend wrote: »

probably. but they are not world class players




its fair to say that they have been in world class form at times but neither have ever sustained that level. neither have stayed in the "pirlo" or "raul" level for more than a year at a time.

Rooney had 3 seasons where he has ever scored more than 20 goals and 1 season where he scored 20. those seasons sandwiched p1ss poor seasons with goal returns around the 17/18 mark. not bad but certainly not world class. people make excuses for him and say he is more a number 10 than a striker. rooney is a striker. but he is a second striker.

Raul on the other hand is a world class striker. no excuses are made for him. he often played a deeper role but noone pretended he was actually a number 10. he has had only a couple of years where his goals tally was less than 20 throughout the season

striker playing 38-50+ games a season should be able to score 20 goals ffs. if they are world class they should be able to manage it.


ozil had how many good seasons in madrid?? we was another one of these young players that had loads of potential and madrid wanted to buy him before he reached it. higgs was the same but arguablly has become world class. benzema is not world class but was the very same idea. same with khedera. great players but not world class players.


world class players are players that in 20 years time you think back and say "oh f#ck, do you remember when (enter players name) did (enter really out of this world moment here)"

rooney and ozil would not be in that sentence

You have put a lot of caveats around the term "world-class" in order to ensure that Ozil falls outside of the term.

The only players in the current Premiership who could possibly match your terms are Aguero and Yaya Toure and I wouldn't be definitive on that.

Suarez hasn't done it at international or European level and his record against the top four is abysmal even though he has had his fair share of memorable moments.

Looking back over 20 years, I can only think of Ronaldo, Bergkamp, Henry and Drogba who were world class in the Premiership during that time if we use your definition.

So saying that Ozil doesn't quite reach the level of Ronaldo, Bergkamp, Henry and Drogba is fair enough. Saying he is better than the likes of Sturridge, Gerrard, Suarez, Nasri, Negredo, Hazard and Oscar and at least on a par with Rooney is also fair enough.

Going back to the Ox and Wilshere comments, it also depends on your definition of unproven. Wilshere has 10 goals in 128 appearances for Arsenal, Jordan Henderson has 10 goals in 123 appearances for Liverpool. Personally I think both have now proven themselves fit for purpose at their relative levels, Wilshere in a Champions League team, Henderson at his level. The Ox has made 69 appearances for Arsenal, about half. I would say we will know by the end of the season whether he is proven or not. So far all the indications are that the answer will be yes.

All in all, the questions of unproven or world-class are arbitrary. You can set a threshold and objectively measure some things but Djimi Traore made 88 appearances for Liverpool and collected a Champions League medal but I would say that Jenkinson is more proven than he.

Nemeses2050

Can't believe this world-class thing is still going on... each to his own