13A socket + twin USB socket

2011

I was given a few samples of this the other day, and I thought that people may be interested:



This is designed to replace existing twin socket outlets.
By connecting to just one set of terminals both USB sockets and the 13A single socket outlet are powered.

Should be a nice way to make a few bob quickly without having to do any invasive work.
Just one of these units costs less than an iPhone/Android/tablet charger (under €30 AFAIK).

Irish Steve

Will indeed be worth looking at, the only downside I can see is that the USB side may be "live" all the time, so a minute current flow, and no way to be sure it's off when no one around. That said, there can't be much of a fire risk on something that small that's built into a brick wall, I'd be less comfortable if it was in a plastic box mounted in a stud wall or similar.

Saw a 2 gang version at a local wholesaler last week, 2 x 13A and twin USB as well, so don't even lose a socket.

Worth considering if USB devices have to be charged or operated regularly, or even to make it easier to run an external disc on something like a PVR attached to a TV set.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

Will indeed be worth looking at, the only downside I can see is that the USB side may be "live" all the time, so a minute current flow, and no way to be sure it's off when no one around.

What is your concern?

That said, there can't be much of a fire risk on something that small that's built into a brick wall, I'd be less comfortable if it was in a plastic box mounted in a stud wall or similar.

I would not be concerned.
Like most people I have many devices in my home that draw a tiny current that are permanently powered, such as:

• Smoke detector
• Heat detector
• Boiler time clock
• Cooker time clock
• Wifi router
• PIR sensor lights
• Intruder alarm
• Printer
• Network drive
• iMac (sleep mode)

So I can't see what difference a couple of USB sockets would make.

liveandnetural

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Socket-USB-Outlets/dp/B00B9G6YO0
more of the same

Stoner

Irish Steve wrote: »

Will indeed be worth looking at, the only downside I can see is that the USB side may be "live" all the time, so a minute current flow, and no way to be sure it's off when no one around. That said, there can't be much of a fire risk on something that small that's built into a brick wall, I'd be less comfortable if it was in a plastic box mounted in a stud wall or similar.

.

I'm fairly sure that the second switch on this is for the USB side of the socket so it can be powered off just like the socket, we've used something similar in the past and that was how is operated.

Irish Steve

2011 wrote: »

What is your concern?



I would not be concerned.
Like most people I have many devices in my home that draw a tiny current that are permanently powered, such as:

• Smoke detector
• Heat detector
• Boiler time clock
• Cooker time clock
• Wifi router
• PIR sensor lights
• Intruder alarm
• Printer
• Network drive
• iMac (sleep mode)

So I can't see what difference a couple of USB sockets would make.

The concern I suppose is that there's a small power device that's permanently live, and depending on the design, it may only protected by a 20 A breaker, rather than a much lower capacity fuse, unless there is a fuse built into the unit behind the panel, non user accessible. All the things you mention above, to which can be added things like Sat boxes, TV's in standby, Sky boxes etc, usually have a 13 or 3A fuse in the plugtop, and then they have another internal much lower rating fuse.

I'd be slightly nervous of a device built into a timber frame wall with a plastic enclosure, and possibly unprotected. I have seen laptop power bricks go up in smoke before, if it's hidden in a wall, it could be a while before smoke or worse is visible. It's not the device per se, it's the fact that it's behind a panel and therefore not immediately visible in the same way that a charger or most of the devices you mention above would be.

That said, my concern only applies to the 2 gang socket + twin USB unit, as mentioned, the single gang socket with USB as well does appear to have a user control switch on the front, so the issue does not arise in the same way. It's possible that the USB's are switched with the sockets, but that's not clear from the layout or the information I was able to get at the place I saw it at.

There will also possibly be an issue with these sockets if they are being used with some of the newer smartphones or tablets, I've just spotted that they are only 5W, and a lot of the newer devices are supplied with a 2.1 A charger, and the device will happily take 2 A, 10W, which is a pain if the device can only throw out 5W, I got caught by that a while back when using a smartphone in GPS mode in the car, the 12 V to USB device I had at the time was only 5W, so the phone battery was discharged in about 3 hours, and it was a 4 hour trip! Had to get a new USB plug for the vehicle, and 2A 12V units are not as common yet, or as cheap. A 5W unit could generate user complaints that it's "not working", when the only problem is that the user is using the device when it's on the charge connection, but the 5W charger can't provide enough power to the device to charge the battery and run it at the same time.

Hope that makes sense

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

All the things you mention above, to which can be added things like Sat boxes, TV's in standby, Sky boxes etc, usually have a 13 or 3A fuse in the plugtop, and then they have another internal much lower rating fuse.

This is not always the case.
For example the time clock in my cooker is protected by a 32A MCB (some are protected by a 40A MCB).
In addition the only upstream protective device on neon lights on some cooker switches, shower switches and socket outlets can be a 32A MCB.

I am sure that you will accept that if one of these USB sockets was protected by a 3A fuse and it consumed 3A (@ 230VAC) it may overheat and possible go on fire anyway.

Remember if you plug in a USB type charger (such as an iPhone charger) there is upstream protection is still the MCB for the socket circuit.

The concern I suppose is that there's a small power device that's permanently live,

Not necessarily, as Stoner said it is possible to to turn off the power to the USB sockets with the isolation switch.

I'd be slightly nervous of a device built into a timber frame wall with a plastic enclosure, and possibly unprotected.

By "unprotected" I assume you mean no back box? This is not permitted.

2011

I have copied some of the more relevant information from the data sheet:

Fits 25mm deep back box

Independent isolation switching of power socket and 2 x USB outlets
One single set of connections Live, Neutral & Earth

Both USB sockets suitable for simultaneously charging/powering most mobile devices

USB Outlets Specifications:
Input: AC 200-240V 50-60Hz Output 2 x DC 5V 1000mA
Thermal overload protection built-in
Fully EMC compliant EN-60960-1 & BS5733

Interesting to see that it has thermal overload protection built in.
Does this address your cencerns Irish Steve?

I take the point that the USB output is limited 1A.
However this is enough for most/all smart phones I would think.
I normally leave my tablet charging overnight anyway, so it makes no difference to me.

ted1

i was looking for these fairly recently, ideally looking for 2 gang with 1 usb, but couldn't fins any for less than €30.

the price is still a bit to high, if you can get them cheaper can you tell me where.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Interesting to see that it has thermal overload protection built in.
Does this address your cencerns Irish Steve?

If there are concerns about that, then its time to live in a cave away from civilisation.

Irish Steve

2011 wrote: »

I have copied some of the more relevant information from the data sheet:



Interesting to see that it has thermal overload protection built in.
Does this address your cencerns Irish Steve?

I take the point that the USB output is limited 1A.
However this is enough for most/all smart phones I would think.
I normally leave my tablet charging overnight anyway, so it makes no difference to me.

Yes, it does, as long as there is a protection on the device that gives something that's not dependant on the breaker back at the panel, that's fine, in that if anything does go down, there is something local that will (hopefully ) limit the potential for damage.

Plastic back boxes are not open, but some of the cable openings can be pretty large, which presents a smoke and heat path into the cavity in some cases, but as I say, if they are protected, which was not at all clear from the spec that was in the one locally, there should not be any significant issues, and yes, I take the point about a cooker clock, though that's normally got some reasonable metal around it that will provide some protection.

If the phone is not in use overnight, no problem, where I can see some complaints will be if a young family member is using their tablet off one of these sockets, and it dies because the charger can't keep up with the demand, try explaining the finer points of V x I = W to a 7 year old that can't watch Mickey Mouse (or whatever) because the battery is flat

hufpc8w3adnk65

How much are these retailing at?

What wholesalers stock them

Also what make are they? I.e which rep should I contact

2011

MrMac84 wrote: »

How much are these retailing at?

Under €30 I am told.

What wholesalers stock them

The usual suspects as far as I know.
I will find out.

Also what make are they?

See data sheet.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

Yes, it does, as long as there is a protection on the device that gives something that's not dependant on the breaker back at the panel, that's fine, in that if anything does go down, there is something local that will (hopefully ) limit the potential for damage.

If I were to plug a standard USB charger into a socket outlet what devices do you think would be protecting it?

Plastic back boxes are not open, but some of the cable openings can be pretty large, which presents a smoke and heat path into the cavity in some cases,

Let's not forget a socket, spur outlet or cooker switch fitted to a plastic box could potentially go on fire too. This is not something that is unique to USB socket outlets.

but as I say, if they are protected, which was not at all clear from the spec that was in the one locally

I have just posted a PDF on this unit. This states that it has thermal overlaid protection.

I take the point about a cooker clock, though that's normally got some reasonable metal around it that will provide some protection.

Do not be under the illusion that a device protected by a 3A fuse can make a faulty device safe and prevent it from becoming a fire hazard.

Irish Steve

2011 wrote: »

If I were to plug a standard USB charger into a socket outlet what devices do you think would be protecting it?

Let's not forget a socket, spur outlet or cooker switch fitted to a plastic box could potentially go on fire too. This is not something that is unique to USB socket outlets.

I have just posted a PDF on this unit. This states that it has thermal overlaid protection.

Do not be under the illusion that a device protected by a 3A fuse can make a faulty device safe and prevent it from becoming a fire hazard.

No arguments here, I suppose that I am nervous of USB devices, because I've seen too many of them expire when in use, probably because a preponderance of them are cheap and nasty Chinese manufacture. A socket can go on fire, but there's less in the way of components to fail there, a PSU has either a transformer, regulator & diodes, or it's a small switched mode PSU, so potential items there that can fail.

Most of the USB chargers that are external with a standard 13A pin connect have some form of protection within them, based on the number I've had to check out when they stop working. I've carved a few open to see if they were recoverable, and most of the time, there's no way.

The USB socket devices may well be coming from a highly respected European manufacturer, and my concerns are unfounded, but knowing the way these things tend to work, the Chinese are first to market.

One of my main suppliers had a problem a while back with laptop power supply mains leads, there was a bad joint in the plug top, (moulded construction) and even with only 70 or 80 Watts going through them, after a while, the outer surface of the plug top would get soft, then molten, and a short time later, there would be a puff of very smelly white smoke as the lead expired and went open circuit on the live connection, and these leads didn't have a fuse in them, they were a figure 8 connector, but effectively capable of supplying whatever the circuit protection limit was, despite being a 13A plug top shape, and only using .5 2 core flex. They had so many fail, they had to put a specific note on their web site to say that the next batch of PSU's were being supplied with a different power lead from a European supplier.

I will be looking for at least one USB socket for home here, it will save an outlet, which near the TV will be a good thing, there's too many sockets in use there already, I need an external disc on a Sat box to use it as a PVR, and a USB device with dual power cable will be a lot easier to support if I don't need a dedicated socket for the power side of it, the manufacturers don't recommend running an external disc off the device power supply. This concept will make it a lot easier to manage.

If it works well, then there could be others for charging smart phones and tablets, when the family come visiting, my router practically melts with all the Wi Fi traffic, last time i looked, there were 8 WiFi devices active on the thing. as well as a couple of standard Wired connections.

SpaceTime

I think I'd prefer a simple plug-in USB power supply though.

2 X 13Amp sockets is far more useful and flexible than 1 X 13A socket and a couple of USB sockets.

Also, voltage stability over various loadings can be quite poor with cheap USB adaptors. You'd want to be sure that the transformer / switch mode power supply inside the socket is actually good quality.

I'd rather plug my €700 iPhone into something I know provides the right voltages and doesn't spike or cause problems. So, I'd feel more comfortable using its original adaptor than some 3rd party socket.

Smart phones are VERY expensive devices when you consider their non-contract subsidised price.

Sir Arthur Daley

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd rather plug my €700 iPhone into something I know provides the right voltages and doesn't spike or cause problems. So, I'd feel more comfortable using its original adaptor than some 3rd party socket.

Smart phones are VERY expensive devices when you consider their non-contract subsidised price.

Apple launched a USB Power Adapter Takeback Program to get rid of users with third party charging devices and rightly so, i would never use a non apple USB charger for my iPad.
The warranty may come into question too if an IPhone/Pad product became defective from using third party USB adaptor, so not worth risking.

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

The warranty may come into question too if an IPhone/Pad product became defective from using third party USB adaptor, so not worth risking.

I don't see how there could be any warranty issues.
1) How would Apple would know what charger you were using?
2) The Apple Store sell 3rd party chagers!

http://store.apple.com/ie/product/HD933VC/A/belkin-in-car-charger-with-lightning?fnode=3c

http://store.apple.com/ie/product/HC338B/A/philips-aj7050d-alarm-clock-dock-with-lightning-connector-for-iphone-5-ipad-mini?fnode=3f

These are very low-tech devices, easy to manufacture to the required specifications for small money. I think your concerns are completely unfounded.

In my opinion these will be installed as standard within the next few years. It is all part of moving with the times.

2011

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also, voltage stability over various loadings can be quite poor with cheap USB adaptors. You'd want to be sure that the transformer / switch mode power supply inside the socket is actually good quality.

The best way of doing that is by buying quality brands.
Much like LED lamps, keep away from the cheap Chinese rubbish.

Even Apple sell third party chargers, this speaks volumes.

These are simple devices to manufacture to the required specifications for multinational companies such as MK.

Surley it is in the interest of companies that have spent years and millions of euro building up a reputation to make units such as this properly.
I am not in the sales end of things, if you don't like it then don't buy it.


Here is an MK unit installed in my own home:



I have been using this for sometime now without any issues.

Irish Steve

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think I'd prefer a simple plug-in USB power supply though.

2 X 13Amp sockets is far more useful and flexible than 1 X 13A socket and a couple of USB sockets.

Also, voltage stability over various loadings can be quite poor with cheap USB adaptors. You'd want to be sure that the transformer / switch mode power supply inside the socket is actually good quality.

I'd rather plug my €700 iPhone into something I know provides the right voltages and doesn't spike or cause problems. So, I'd feel more comfortable using its original adaptor than some 3rd party socket.

Smart phones are VERY expensive devices when you consider their non-contract subsidised price.

Valid points. The 13 A unit I saw was 2 gang, with 2 USB connects in the centre between the 13A sockets, but I've not explored any further yet, partly because I too have some concerns about the issue you've raised, the Samsung Smart Phone I have is sensitive to chargers, if I use it in the car, it does not charge well, unless I use the original 230V charger via an inverter, even if the 12V unit I use is in theory capable of outputting 2 Amps. That's a pain, especially if I am using the GPS functionality, if the screen is on most of the time, the battery is discharging, and that's not good on a long trip.

I would expect that before too long, USB power in the home will be standard, and available in most rooms, it's a new thing right now, partly because it's only relatively recently that 5 V USB power has become the de facto standard for charging mobile devices.

Hopefully, ir will make life easier for all concerned, if I could rely on finding USB power in places like Hotels and other "public" places, it's one less thing to have to remember to put into the overnight bag, and once the USB option is more widely spread around the world, it will solve the issues of international plug changers, so again, less debris in the travel bag.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

the Samsung Smart Phone I have is sensitive to chargers, if I use it in the car, it does not charge well

Your post shows that despite some concerns you have used third party chargers. However it sounds like you are suffering from the effects of a cheap & nasty charger.
I bought an excellent one for my iPhone in Compu B, it works very well.
The point being, buy a good quality unit and it will be fit for purpose.

I would expect that before too long, USB power in the home will be standard.

Yes, that is what I was saying in an earlier post.
This is a very simple device for the manufacturers to get right, I am suprised that you think that it will be so difficult for them to get it right.
Perhaps you are basing your opinion on some low quality units from China rather then high end established manufacturers?

Hopefully, ir will make life easier for all concerned, if I could rely on finding USB power in places like Hotels and other "public" places

It will only make life easier for you if you are willing to "trust" these units by using them

SpaceTime

What I would really like to see wouldn't be current USB chargers. I'd prefer to see something a little beefier, that could actually charge laptops.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see some kind of a setup where there was a standard 12 or even 18V DC connector capable of providing up to maybe 90 Watts using a small-scale standardised plug.

That would mean it could be used for things like laptops, mobiles, toothbrushes, shavers, other small appliances.

The reality is that a huge % of our appliances actually run on 12V DC anyway and have heavy plug-in transformers.

Although, that being said, I think what's preventing it happening is that most countries have small, neat plugs suitable for appliances that are drawing less than 3amps as an alternative to their 15 or 16amp grounded plugs which are only used on large appliances.

In Europe you've got the flat, 2-pin non-grounded Euro-plug which is pretty tiny and i the states you've the 2-pin version of NEMA 15 which is pretty tiny too.

Ireland and Britain are pretty exceptional in requiring an enormous grounded plug on absolutely everything. Whether it's a radio drawing 5 watts or a tumble dryer drawing 3000W it's the same plug huge plug.

It makes very little sense really and I don't see a problem elsewhere with small appliances bursting into flames due to having a small, unfused plug.

I just think the BS1363 and ring circuit setup requiring fused plugs is pretty impractical in an era when we spend most of our time plugging in very low power portable appliances. It's obvious that the standard was developed in a time when the only portable appliance people owned was a big heavy vacuum cleaner or a 'wireless' the size of a kitchen cabinet.

So, because our system is only used in a couple of countries (and some obscure small places). I can't really see the entire rest of the world deciding that they need an alternative connector to be installed in buildings.

If you've ever seen a US or EU iPhone charger, they're about the size of a USB dongle. You can comfortably carry them in your pocket.

....

A more practical solution might be to provide 2-pin outlets (fused if necessary at 3amps) on existing sockets. You could provide up to 4 of them in the space of a single Irish 3-pin socket plate. There's a version that will only accept the small 2-pin 2.5amp Europlugs.
That would at least give us the option of carrying much smaller plugs around!

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I think your concerns are completely unfounded.

There has been several cases of non oem Apple charges causing accidents, personal and property, Belkin and Philips have licence agreement with Apple so that is why their products are in their stores.
If one was using a cheap Chinese charger and it resulted in damaging an iphone and customer brought in phone with a borrowed genuine charger im fairly confident that Apple would be able to test/inspect the charger and phone and know that there was some other issue that damaged the phone i.e the cheap charger and would argue this case.
I don't see USB sockets catching on as one would need them in various locations around the home to suit ones living and plugging in and out of adaptor is not such hard work and alot cheaper too.

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

There has been several cases of non oem Apple charges causing accidents, personal and property, Belkin and Philips have licence agreement with Apple so that is why their products are in their stores.

If this is true it proves that 3rd party chargers can work to Apple's specification which is exactly my point

im fairly confident that Apple would be able to test/inspect the charger and phone and know that there was some other issue that damaged the phone i.e the cheap charger and would argue this case.

Link?

I don't see USB sockets catching on

Myself and Steve think otherwise.
I won't argue this with you as we are both guessing and you maybe correct.
Only time will tell.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

If this is true it proves that 3rd party chargers can work to Apple's specification which is exactly my point

The third party chargers that Apple have in their store are MFI licenced as i previously have said, other third party chargers such as ones the MK one you have in post #19 and the one in the opening post unless they carry the MFI logo they do not meet Apple performance standards.

https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

The third party chargers that Apple have in their store are MFI licenced as i previously have said, other third party chargers such as ones the MK one you have in post #19 and the one in the opening post unless they carry the MFI logo they do not meet Apple performance standards.

https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/

Can you not see how simple these devices are?
Do you know that it is just a 5 volt supply?
This website even shows children how to make a USB charger!


What part of the manufacturing process do you think is beyond the likes of MK to make?

Assuming that you agree that large multinational manufactures have the ability to make these devices properly would you not accept that it is in their interest to do so? After all they have a reputation to protect.

The MK USB charger even won an industry award last year.

Like most people I have been using 3rd party chargers for years without any issues.
You seem you be overthinking this.

Bruthal

WikiHow wrote: »

they do not meet Apple performance standards.

They give apple an excuse to avoid warranty cover you mean.

Have to laugh at "performance standards" for a 5v charger.

SpaceTime

To be fair to Apple, they're actually pretty outstandingly good at providing warranty cover. I've had a few issues with faulty Apple products and they were absolutely top notch (including on one that was actually out of warranty)

As for laughing at performance standards for USB chargers?
What's funny about it?

There are quite serious issues with cheap and nasty USB chargers outputting the wrong voltage or dropping voltage dramatically as the load increases.

You're also talking about a device that uses quite high amperage at low voltage. With bad design that can pose a fire risk.

Just because something's 5V (5.8V) doesn't mean that it can't do damage to the device it's powering or even cause a fire.

There should be very serious standards around them.

While reputable manufacturers like MK etc will undoubtedly make top notch products, you'll get loads of white, unbranded USB sockets on the market too that could be outputting anything if there's no standard.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be fair to Apple, they're actually pretty outstandingly good

Im sure they are.

As for laughing at performance standards for USB chargers?
What's funny about it?

How did we manage without apple`s benchmark of USB charger testing.

There are quite serious issues with cheap and nasty USB chargers outputting the wrong voltage or dropping voltage dramatically as the load increases.

Just because some places make rubbish ones, doesnt mean that they are a difficult device to make properly.

You're also talking about a device that uses quite high amperage at low voltage. With bad design that can pose a fire risk.

Only apple chargers in your house so, to eliminate all risk.

Just because something's 5V (5.8V) doesn't mean that it can't do damage to the device it's powering or even cause a fire.

I didnt know that, thanks.

SpaceTime

I never said anything about only Apple chargers.
I'm saying that there needs to be a fairly tight and enforceable standard that applies to all USB adaptors and chargers.

USB is used to charge a lot more than iPhones!!

There's already a problem in most markets with badly made / counterfeit electrical accessories like switches and sockets and even RCDs, MCBs and wiring.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

I never said anything about only Apple chargers.

You asked what I found funny about "performance standards"

Clearly the poster I quoted wont think anything is good enough for an apple phone, except an apple charger. That`s amusing. Not to everyone of course.