Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Holocaust Memorial comments

2»

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    the right wing has been coming up for years,i don't see anything wrong in his statement


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Mr Shatter said: "it is imperative that governments and mainstream parties "repudiate the reprehensible rhetoric of those who contaminate our poltical discourse and attempt to inflame dangerous prejudice." (RTE)

    Leaving the context of the memorial aside for just a second, his comments seem to spring from the idea that modern European politics is founded on left-wing liberalism and that any interference from the centrist-right or far-right is to be fought at all cost; for me this reveals a lot about the democratic deficit at the heart of Europe; the guys who are in power are un-elected technocrats who have slowly built up a complex political/corporate facade around themselves in a manner which leads elected politicians to bow down before the demands of the technocrats even at the expense of their own constituents. This would include the use of propaganda to ensure that the right are besmirched with the legacy of the second world war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

    I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

    He must be stopped lads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,929 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Reekwind wrote: »
    But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?

    It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

    I'm not trying to raise a usual anti holocaust/semitic argument here, but how are Jews 'ordinary people' where Slavs werent....?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,293 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

    I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

    He must be stopped lads.

    He was but he said he was on Dail business and drove on leaving the garda standing there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭jellyboy


    can't we all hug and just get along?
    and try to understand that whatever the viewpoint of others a lot of people were left fatherless ,motherless,aunts,sisters,brothers and multiples of combinations of family members died

    numbers mean nothing,pain of loss is everything







    I'm off to make mint tea,anyone want one?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭Cool_CM


    What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

    In relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion? What does his religion have to do with it? There's no controversy here and I'm fairly sure that other people who aren't Jewish, myself included, would probably be of the same opinion as him in this instance.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Reekwind wrote: »
    It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West
    This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

    Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.




    *before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    biko wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.
    They're the most worrying of any of the parties he mentioned. Some awful, awful stories about them last year.

    kasidiaris-5701-600x400.jpg

    This image says more about them than any amount of examples I could make.

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/09/19/fyss-s19.html
    A very messy series of events...


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    As our justice minister I think its imperative he addresses it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

    Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.




    *before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

    Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭BillyMitchel


    biko wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

    Is that not the Greek party that's been outlawed after a member murdered another party member?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Reekwind wrote: »
    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West
    The real horror was the ruthless efficiency.

    At an extermination camp, the men would be in the showers in as little as eight minutes after the train arrived.

    Chełmno seven survivors out of 152,000
    Belzec two out of 430,000
    Treblinka II 70 out of 875,000 (uprising)
    Maly Trostenets No Survivors out of 165,000
    Sobibor 59 out of 200,000 (and 50 of those were part of a mass break out)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭downonthefarm


    Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.
    They weren't the only government who did, not by a long shot. Vanishingly few governments didn't restrict Jewish immigration into their countries at that time of need. Including the US and UK. In many if not most cases it was down to brave local individual officials that stamped travel papers to get people out, often to much hassle from the top down. Jews were a hot potato that very few jurisdictions wanted anything to do with.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

    The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals
    There were already "local" Dubliner Jews. They had gotten on with the "locals" from way back. I grew up on the South Circular Road and had a good few childhood mates who were Jews. And that boiled down in the kid mind to "poor buggers can't eat sausages, but lucky buggers don't have to go to mass". Quite a few were gingers too(which in fairness garnered some slagging :D), which may suggest "getting on with the locals" had more of a "how you dooooin" vibe. :) Actually quite the number of Jewish folks out there have red hair, Woody Allen is a ginge, so it seems a Murphy/O'Whatever may have been a bit of a catch back in the day... :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

    The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.

    Thank you. I did not articulate my point as well as you.

    That the man acts arrogant and superior does not help him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.
    Well the text goes:
    He said that the crisis had revitalised pre-existing parties of the extreme right whose anti-Semitic and racist rhetoric is both corrosive and dangerous.
    ...
    Minister Shatter cited Golden Dawn in Greece, Jobbik in Hungary, the National Front in France.
    The other organisations he expressed concern over are Ataka and the Bulgarian National Party in Bulgaria, and the British National Party and UKIP in Britain.
    I'd say EU with its politics has caused these parties to blossom (in part). Not everyone still thinks a European federation, run from Brussels, is the way to go.

    Ireland has suffered more than most because of the bankers failure, you don't see us attacking jews (unless there is some loose connection with Israel at play).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    To touch upon the Holocaust.
    Many Jews escaped the nazis and found safety in Malmo, Sweden.
    These Jews, now old, are leaving since the rise of MENA immigration has meant anti-Semitic crime has risen and the left-wing mayor sits on his hands. We see the same pattern in France.
    Ostensibly because of the Israel-Palestinian conflict somehow, but it's really just pure religious hatred and racism.
    I think it's good that we remember the history and the crimes against jews by nazis but that doesn't mean that the threat against jews hasn't a new/old dimension now.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement