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Which never stopped an Irish law yet...Grizzly 45 wrote: »Its also called a broad supposition
Except that they, whenever asked, just say that they can't give them out without licences and those kinds of firearms aren't licencable, but if the owners want to sell them on outside the state, they're welcome to do so (which was pretty much what got said every time someone asked about the TCO between 1972 and 2004).See above TCO example.. Now because of much can kicking of various govts and ministers.The State is now obligated to sit on virtually forever various bits of personal civillian property and keep it under army gaurd.
The idea that a TD might find it unacceptable that the state would have to pay money to stash firearms in an army barracks is a bit laughable really, given the stuff they readily poured money into without blushing for decades...
Yeah, but you don't really know it because you weren't part of the team that got it done.Looking at it on the surface that is... There is a whole untold story of the Midlands reloading that would make a very intresting book.
And if I had a euro for every time someone cursed their names for doing something that made more progress towards getting reloading back for everyone than the combined efforts of all of the loudest tablepounders for the last forty years, well, I wouldn't need to worry so much about the mortgage
Maybe if we'd not thrown the biggest spanner ever into the works with the PTB and made a dogs dinner of everything that was in motion at the time, this would be one of the things we'd all be doing at the moment?
Except that we had supporters in that branch of the civil service. Had we not had those, we would not have any pistols today. Look at the Irish Times story at the time and compare it to what happened after the proposal hit the firearms unit in the DoJ.So thats where the danger lies,they rely on their advisors,spin doctors and Sir Humphry types of their revelant depts to explain and simplify the matters for them,and thats where the danger lies of the permanent govt of beuraccy gets their spin in on things.
TL;DR: Yeah, they could ban everything but generally they don't want to go to that much trouble unless we gave them enough cause to want to put up with an IFA protest over it.0 -
Grizzly 45 wrote: »Its also called a broad supposition,[ in the sense of that all males are potential rapists because they have penises,so its best we castrate them at birth,kind of logic]and a very slippery slope to go down politically. TBH most European countries bar the UK that have had mass shootings havent run off and banned any particular type of firearm as they realise it isnt the gun at fault rather the person and worked on that POV.
Grizzly, I think either you read me wrong or Im mis-reading you
Im not suggesting for one second banning guns will stop a massacre.
Its like saying if we ban guns across the world there will be peace between countries and we will live happily ever after and never see another war again. I mean if you ever read a history book you'd see the Romans, Vikings, Celts and Goths etc were a peaceful bunch that never had problems. It was those blasted Chinese coming along with their gunpowder that caused all these problems :P
But joking aside. I know this is wrong. You know this wrong. But Joe Public doesnt see it that way. Joe Public really does think firearms are the issue and really does think that banning them is the answer.
Im not saying its the right thing to do. Im just saying if a minister did wipe out firearms and said he was doing it as a pre-emptive move to stop a school shooting then he would be more of a hero with Joe Public than a crook.
Do you not agree with me?Grizzly 45 wrote: »
In short look deeper at motives and reasoning or simply think "what would I do if I was the minister at this current time?"
Grizzly this is exactly my point.
Right now if I was a non-shooting minister, I can see all these good reasons to kill the sport dead in its tracks (and that's before even considering all the hassle from the handguns and the fiasco with the NARGC and FCP and other issues).
Plenty of good reasons to kill it, but remind me again, for my political career what are the pro's for letting lads have semi-centerfires and handguns and reloading etc?
If I was a minister and I was looking at all this I would probably ban the lot and leave an exemption for farmers.
But that hasn't happened so far. Honesty, I cant fathom why it hasn't happened but it hasn't. This is why I believe there is room for negotiations. If somehow we could stop backstabbing each other and bickering back and forth and got together, get the FCP up and going again I reckon the DOJ would be open to talking to us.Grizzly 45 wrote: »
Is there a grant in it?:)
Sure why not. We might aswell sweeten them up, could always use the extra support and votes. I'd reduce the licence fee from €80 to emmm.... Id say we could probably reduce it down to about €78, or maybe even €75 if they play their cards right
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Wow, the NARGC complaining that the shooting bodies aren't being consulted... after the NARGC burned down the one forum we had for the shooting bodies to be consulted.
edit: And *still* there's nothing in that document saying what has actually been proposed by the AGS, nor on whether or not the AGS propose these ideas every other day or if this is new and prompted by the court actions the NARGC insisted on shaking in the Ministers face.
We must all have very short memories...0 -
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Yup.Grizzly 45 wrote: »Indeed and thats why we have many stupid laws that dont work on our books,not just in the gun laws.
But I can't see us fixing that problem anytime this century...
As far as the PTB are concerned, that's the next of kin's problem. As far as the Minister's concerned, storage is the army's problem. So the problem is kicked down the chain on both sides and so isn't any concern at all for the lad in the Merc.Except the slight problem is NOW 38 tears later...Some o if not most of the owners have died,emigrated or their next of kin have no idea as to the fact grand dad had a lee enfield from whenever.So two problems exist.seeing as the storage paperwork in some cases is abit" inaccurate" too.IE Lost or destroyed.
How do the next of kin claim said item to get it out of storage??
How do the govt contact owners or next of kin to ask would they like their relatives guns or whatever back??
It shouldn't be that way, but it is and if you want to get stuff done, you have to work with what's there, not what should be there but isn't.
Yup. Again, shouldn't be that way, but is.Thats where double standards kick in doesnt it not to mind with a 100% Irish hyprocrisy,not to mind blatent stupidity.
That wasn't my implication. I didn't have an implication. I made a statement because trying to subtly imply things in our community is a fast way to be sure nobody understands what you're saying.What are you exactly trying to imply or insuniate here Sparks???
I never claimed to be a part of that group EVER and I RESENT your implication that I am trying to claim credit of others work:mad::mad::mad::
And my statement was straightforward and truthful - ie. that you weren't one of the (really small) team that got it done, and lots of people say they know what happened, but weren't in that team and so don't - they think they know but that's not the same thing.Y'know you are sounding like a stuck record on this now.Yeah we all have got the point by now,and I'm sure we'd ALL like to hear your solution for sorting this out in practical terms is exactly?
On a public forum where posting isn't having a chat over a pint, but publishing? Some might say that was a fast way to get your house taken away in a defamation lawsuit Grizz, but just for you, here's a precis of the bhudda-only-knows how many posts I've put up here over the years on this topic:- You want to sort things out, start up the FCP again and do whatever's necessary to do that.
- Quit trying to beat the government with the courts, it doesn't work.
- Don't bother trying to get one single body to rule them all speak for everyone, it won't work and we've tried that line for forty years with no success. Get them to all stand together in the same forum instead, that actually did work the first time we tried it.
- Quit complaining about how the system is unfair and biased. We know it is. It's not just our sport, it's the whole country. Complaining isn't going to get it done.
- Quit thinking the AGS are the enemy. There really isn't an enemy, if it was that simple, we'd have fixed this generations ago. There are conflicting agendas and it's a case of finding compromise solutions that we can live with.
- The next time someone says "molon labe" tell them thank you very much but you don't like to have sex with little boys* so you don't think that's an appropriate slogan or one you want to be associated with. And yes, I'm including that greek army division in that. Having tanks doesn't make you correct.
- Public relations. **** the courts, if you want to protect your sport, you need public opinion on your side. Laws can and are bypassed by the government all the time, that's a major part of their reason for existing; but if the public's on your side, no government will touch you. Right now, today, Shatter would gain votes for banning handguns. Think he'd gain votes for banning the GAA on the grounds that kids die on GAA pitches? No. And neither does he, and that's the game. Play it or lose.
*The spartans really were a nasty bunch of people. I really can't figure out why people think associating us with them is a good idea, unless those people never studied their history.0 -
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Yup.
But I can't see us fixing that problem anytime this century...
A
Actually it IS his problem now as minister of Justice AND Defence!;)s far as the PTB are concerned, that's the next of kin's problem. As far as the Minister's concerned, storage is the army's problem. So the problem is kicked down the chain on both sides and so isn't any concern at all for the lad in the Merc.
Cant kick that one now anywhere with merged depts.It shouldn't be that way, but it is and if you want to get stuff done, you have to work with what's there, not what should be there but isn't.
True,but then dont expect unworkable half assed solutions either.That wasn't my implication. I didn't have an implication. I made a statement because trying to subtly imply things in our community is a fast way to be sure nobody understands what you're saying.
And my statement was straightforward and truthful - ie. that you weren't one of the (really small) team that got it done, and lots of people say they know what happened, but weren't in that team and so don't - they think they know but that's not the same thing.
Hence the reason I said a whole book could be written about it.
On a public forum where posting isn't having a chat over a pint, but publishing? Some might say that was a fast way to get your house taken away in a defamation lawsuit* Grizz, but just for you, here's a precis of the bhudda-only-knows how many posts I've put up here over the years on this topic:- You want to sort things out, start up the FCP again and do whatever's necessary to do that.
- Quit trying to beat the government with the courts, it doesn't work.
- Don't bother trying to get one single body to rule them all speak for everyone, it won't work and we've tried that line for forty years with no success. Get them to all stand together in the same forum instead, that actually did work the first time we tried it.
- Quit complaining about how the system is unfair and biased. We know it is. It's not just our sport, it's the whole country. Complaining isn't going to get it done.
- Quit thinking the AGS are the enemy. There really isn't an enemy, if it was that simple, we'd have fixed this generations ago. There are conflicting agendas and it's a case of finding compromise solutions that we can live with.
- The next time someone says "molon labe" tell them thank you very much but you don't like to have sex with little boys* so you don't think that's an appropriate slogan or one you want to be associated with. And yes, I'm including that greek army division in that. Having tanks doesn't make you correct.
- Public relations. **** the courts, if you want to protect your sport, you need public opinion on your side. Laws can and are bypassed by the government all the time, that's a major part of their reason for existing; but if the public's on your side, no government will touch you. Right now, today, Shatter would gain votes for banning handguns. Think he'd gain votes for banning the GAA on the grounds that kids die on GAA pitches? No. And neither does he, and that's the game. Play it or lose.
Welll ,FINALLY:p....And guess what apart from the AGS not being the enemy after their actions and intents,i'd certainly put them in the not exactly friendly to us part of things.,I'd agree with you,even on the historical POV the Spartans being a rather unpleasent lot. I think you are reading too much into a saying that somone thought "cute" once in athe US and commercialised it.And yes, I must admit the US education system is terrble on teaching any sort of classics anymore,but then again we dont exactly teach much about Japans shogunate history in secondary school here either.
But anyway.Its not undoable,and the next point is after the statement just issued,will it happen??
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In relation to such and considering defamation is all the rage at the moment with homophobia and drag queens and such.There is a defence to it.
Truth: One may avoid liability if one can show that the defamatory statement in question is true “in all material respects”.
ii) Absolute Privilege: This refers to utterances made in the Houses of the Oireachtas or people involved in judicial proceedings such as a judge, juror, witness or a legal representation.
iii) Qualified Privilege: This relates to communications where the informant has a legal, moral or social duty to communicate the information and the recipient has a similar duty to receive it. By way of example, if an employee writes to his employer making allegations of dishonesty against another employee but these allegation prove to be false but made bona fide (‘in good faith’), such communications will not be considered defamatory. If however, an element of malice is present, the defence will be unsuccessful.
iv) Honest Opinion: For a person to successfully utilise this defence, they must display that they believed in the truth of the opinion, that the opinion was founded on allegations of fact and the opinion concerned a matter of public interest.
Just thought you might be intrested.:)"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly, if you think a Minister would have trouble kicking a problem somewhere else, you haven't spent much time studying Ministers, and I know you have, so what are you on about?Grizzly 45 wrote: »Actually it IS his problem now as minister of Justice AND Defence!;)
Cant kick that one now anywhere with merged depts.
The Minister doesn't bother worrying about how next of kin would apply because that's their problem in his eyes, and he doesn't worry about storing the firearms because that's the army's problem in his eyes, and none of it is his fault when he looks at it. You probably do differ in opinion, but you're one voter and he's the Minister and this is Ireland and we don't do things the ideal way round here. I wish we did, but as the saying goes, wish in one hand and **** in the other and get back to me on which hand filled up first.
Yes, because I never said those things before....Welll ,FINALLY
Some of them, definitely yes. Some of them, definitely no. You can't tar them all with the same brush, not when some of them are in court fighting others over licences themselves, and some are advising us on how to deal with what they openly call "problem superintendents"...i'd certainly put them in the not exactly friendly to us part of things
Ten years of work and ten more of watching says it's rather unlikely and what we'd be more likely to see is lots of expensive but ultimately ineffectual shouting that just does more damage. Of course, that's assuming there's something coming down the pipe to begin with and not just people missing the bad old days when they could claim to be fighting the good fight without actually worrying about trying to win (because everyone knew they couldn't).But anyway.Its not undoable,and the next point is after the statement just issued,will it happen??
Sure there is. And you only have to pay a few grand to get into the courtroom to give that defence (and that few grand is not recoverable in costs because it'll be your solicitor's section 67 fees -- if you lose, the number gets much, much higher). Now me, I'd rather that money went into my son's college fund. If you have a different opinion, cool. Start your own website and publish your opinion there and take the lawsuit on yourself (what, surely you didn't think that section 42 meant other people had to pay the website fees so you could post more or less anonymously?)In relation to such and considering defamation is all the rage at the moment with homophobia and drag queens and such.There is a defence to it.
You know, I might have read that stuff before once or twice...Just thought you might be intrested.:)0 -
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Grizzly, if you think a Minister would have trouble kicking a problem somewhere else, you haven't spent much time studying Ministers, and I know you have, so what are you on about?
The Minister doesn't bother worrying about how next of kin would apply because that's their problem in his eyes, and he doesn't worry about storing the firearms because that's the army's problem in his eyes, and none of it is his fault when he looks at it. You probably do differ in opinion, but you're one voter and he's the Minister and this is Ireland and we don't do things the ideal way round here. I wish we did, but as the saying goes, wish in one hand and **** in the other and get back to me on which hand filled up first.
Well the trouble is now he is in charge of both depts.He cant say its the armies problem as he is now in charge of the army as well.He could if it was a dept of defence ,but there isnt so the problem is still in his lap.Whether he likes it or not.So as usual,its not his fault ,no one to blame,everyone gets promoted..This is Ireland... Kick the can down the road..Yeah no wonder we are now considerd the clowns of europe who cant govern themselves.
Yes, because I never said those things before....
Some of them, definitely yes. Some of them, definitely no. You can't tar them all with the same brush, not when some of them are in court fighting others over licences themselves, and some are advising us on how to deal with what they openly call "problem superintendents"...
"Ten years of work and ten more of watching says it's rather unlikely and what we'd be more likely to see is lots of expensive but ultimately ineffectual shouting that just does more damage. Of course, that's assuming there's something coming down the pipe to begin with and not just people missing the bad old days when they could claim to be fighting the good fight without actually worrying about trying to win (because everyone knew they couldn't).
Indeed ASSuming there is somthing coming and someone isnt playing hero of the hour".Although I would be likely to belive that this is a opening gambit to demand everything and be happy that you get more than you bargined for.
BUT if that got at least a unified front of these organisations would that at least be a start??Sure there is. And you only have to pay a few grand to get into the courtroom to give that defence (and that few grand is not recoverable in costs because it'll be your solicitor's section 67 fees -- if you lose, the number gets much, much higher). Now me, I'd rather that money went into my son's college fund. If you have a different opinion, cool. Start your own website and publish your opinion there and take the lawsuit on yourself (what, surely you didn't think that section 42 meant other people had to pay the website fees so you could post more or less anonymously?)
You do belive jumping from one extreme to the other dont you??As for anyominity here I doubt it wouldnt take much for anyone to find out who I am with a court order to Boards.ie owners to reveal my ISP.Unless of course boards.ie has moved the server to the US and its protected under the 1st amendment?:)As you always said court is alottery,it could go just as easily in your fvaour too..Anyone who thinks court is a sure thing...well....
So then why be so worried about every single item being possible a law suit??There is a long way to go before somthing ever sees the light of a court.You know, I might have read that stuff before once or twice..."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Yes, he can. "I'm the minister, I say you'll do this." Done.Grizzly 45 wrote: »Well the trouble is now he is in charge of both depts.He cant say its the armies problem as he is now in charge of the army as well.
We're not talking about Minister-to-Minister can-kicking here, we're talking about a Minister kicking a problem down the chain, where inevitably it keeps going till it lands on some poor schmuck late on a tuesday evening when he gets a job but no resources or authority and it's either muddle on and mangle it, or quit and hope the savings cover the mortgage and bills until he finds a new job.
And the moment he hands it off to the Army, the Minister says "that would be an operational matter" and as far as he's concerned, job done, and now it's not his problem anymore.
Yup.Yeah no wonder we are now considerd the clowns of europe who cant govern themselves.
Mind you, we've all known that for years. So does it help to complain about it?
*hahahahahaha*Indeed ASSuming there is somthing coming and someone isnt playing hero of the hour".Although I would be likely to belive that this is a opening gambit to demand everything and be happy that you get more than you bargined for.
BUT if that got at least a unified front of these organisations would that at least be a start??
Yeah, that'd be a start. The lads who burned down the only avenue we had into the PTB and the lads who did an end run around that avenue to hand in the most draconian pistol ban I've ever heard of as a suggestion to the PTB, have now teamed up to save us all from a proposed pistol ban that nobody has seen or heard of yet outside of the hallowed few who don't pass these things on to the rest of us.
It's a start allright, though where that start leads to, I don't think you're going to like very much
Nope, I don't bother jumping, I just keep in mind that sometimes two things can be true and yet quite far apart on the spectrum.You do belive jumping from one extreme to the other dont you?
Gosh, where have I heard that before...As for anyominity here I doubt it wouldnt take much for anyone to find out who I am with a court order
Sure, if your case has merit and you pay enough for the legal team.As you always said court is alottery,it could go just as easily in your fvaour too..
The thing is, it's very much like the lottery in that you have to pay to play.
And me, as I said, I'd rather spend the money on college funds than scratch cards.
Because other people have more money than me and SLAPP lawsuits aren't illegal in Ireland? Because if it's published here, then other people get sued too without having had any say in things and that's not right? Because if I was to go to court, I'd like to pick the battles and this isn't worth the fight?So then why be so worried about every single item being possible a law suit??There is a long way to go before somthing ever sees the light of a court.
Take your pick, or invent some of your own, it's a game the whole community can play, except for a few lads down the country who lost it already and had to fork over five figure sums in the past when that was a lot more money than it is even today, and who probably don't want to play anymore.0 -
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