Statement from NASRPC

yubabill1

Just for clarity, I am a strong advocate of law and order (probably somewhere to the right of Kevin Myers) but I also believe what Ben Franklin said;

"Anyone who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"

Governments have been giving AGS powers of summary justice down the years as a cheap fix, where they should have instead been giving them more resources, in my opinion.

Just in case anyone thinks I am advocating anarchy.

rowa

yubabill1 wrote: »

Looks to me like the system has worked since the new legislation came in, just that AGS don't like it.

Plus they have a D4 metrosexual minister to cry to.

So lots of people got together and forge a compromise and when one party doesn't like the compromise, they drag their heels and when that doesn't work, they seek to change what was agreed unilaterally.

The words "police" and "state" come to mind.

Of course that's not fair. If they were monitoring our communications, or interfering with our freedom of association or did away with Habeas Corpus (innocent until proven guilty) then those words might be justified.

I have a sarcastic wit, I know.

"i have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it worse" - Brendan Behan.

Cass

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Interesting to see that NRAI/Midlands are not signed up to the new united front?

Firstly I've corrected that for you. The Midlands are not an NGB, they are a range. It's the NRAI you are referring to.

Secondly why is it interesting?

Dian Cecht

All .30 cal rifles being banned will certainly affect someone who wants to shoot F Class which is their discipline is it not.

There will/might be members of the NRAI, thanks for clarifying the situation for me, affected by what is/may be coming.

& I know this is all rumour at the moment before you say it.

Cass

Other than it all being speculation, the rumor being floated is 30 cal rifles will be restricted, not banned.

As to why they have not reacted, what makes anyone think that the other groups are not working themselves in the background, and simply not posting notices that so far have only served to scare the crap out of people, and create two weeks of "what ifs" and "oh dear God i'm going to loose all my guns". Perhaps the NRAI & others have more sense than to react to unverified and speculative rumors. Or they have be given verified information and realise/know there is no need to worry at all. Perhaps they have been given it and are strategising. We don't know.

There are more NGBs and organisations/associations that need to be brought into the fold. However given past history, especially with the two groups already involved, what are the chances they extend an invitation to the NRAI and other groups to come on board?

I'm kinda blue in the face saying this, but once more for kicks. If this is true, and it all goes ahead then i'll lead the charge in the panicking stakes. If it's all been for nothing, then i'd really like to meet the people that started this and thank them for the weeks of pointless worrying, and ask what purpose it served. Because at this point there is nothing they can do.

If no new laws have been created they cannot change them (cannot afaik appeal a bill). If they want to talk to the PTB to avoid pitfalls before they become law, well that opportunity was pissed away some time ago, and with recent events how likely/open are they to entertaining such talks? There are no "pat on the backs" here no matter the outcome. I can understand and like the idea of being informed, but only when the information is precise/specific and from a verifiable source that has a name attached to it.

Last point. These are Garda proposals, and not a draught Bill. I'm sure the Garda commissioner (or at least his office) does this regularly/annually. I would be interested to know how many other times this has happened when nothing was made of it or nothing known about it.

Grizzly 45

The most sensible post of this whole Chinese fire drill sofar.:cool:

dc99

Hi,

I'm reading with interest the postings back and forth here on issues and items that are in the main supposition and unsubstantiated.

Yes, I to am falling a bit for the borderline hysteria (cause thats where it seems to be going....????) 'on the I'm gonna loose my gun thought.'

I'm a relative newcomer to sports shooting and target shooting.But have the bug big time. I am enjoying the challenge of grouping my rounds as best I can. And even if I say so my self I am getting better with the help of a much better shot and friend. I don't want to stop.

Can I suggest something?

Lets not look at this negatively. lets try to look at this in a positive light.

For instance who says 'we' as a Lawful, licensed Shooting community can't go to the Minister with an alternative or at least OUR set of proposals?
If AGS are entitled to do it so are we.
Give the Minister a reasonable proposal and alternative on 'fixing' the issues and problems.

I for one do agree on gun control, but in a reasonable and measured way.

Let US as a community suggest where OUR sport should go and SUGGEST how this can be achieved.

I would propose a number of items for this.

License the person not individual guns.

Record the number and type each person has.

Set out security arrangements in the Home (already in place).

FIX the licensing issues - create a licensing authority. (Let the Garda vet us initially, but if passed - then forward on to the new license authority).

Get rid of childish and silly mechanical issues that you wouldn't hear if in a school yard .... your only allowed have 5 marbles to play in our country.
So have a reasonable capacity of 10 rounds not 5??? (Its silly to think that the Government is legislating against legitimate competition rules. I have only heard of one competition that you use 5 shots....maybe there is more?

Create a Government Watchdog (independent of AGS) to monitor the situation (It seems to me that the AGS have a separate agenda to legislation and this is deduced from the way they inconsistently apply the license system. (counter argument)? anyone?

Have a register of authorised competition organisers - as in Individuals, so each competition is ran under and only under, a licensed individual (and therefor hopefully correctly and strictly and according to within legislation as well as competition rules), then let us have back IPSC. etc....If I want combat training I do not join the illegal organisations to do it. I would join the Reserves or indeed the army. Or indeed go paint balling or air soft.......

We are constantly defamed and pre-judged on how we conduct ourselves. I am not a child, I can make choices for myself and I know right from wrong. (Yes there may well be a few that will act illegally, but then they as individuals should be challenged and I believe we would and do not tolerate it in our ranks if we know it is happening. because we know what is right.

Let US make our proposal to the Minister, whats he gonna do say - ? NO? he won't meet us ?(as a cohesive organised lobby group....???)

Discuss?

Witcher

All good suggestions but not one will ever happen.

Sparks

They're good suggestions - and to a degree, they were actually done in the FCP, and before that as well (but nothing ever got listened to as well as the stuff done from within the FCP).

However, there are always those in our little community who read what you just wrote and think "HA! I COULD RUN THAT AND BE IMPORTANT", or thoughts to that effect, and next thing you know, it's all gone to poop.

dc99

it certainly won't if we don't propose it officially and directly to the PTB....

I'm sorry Blay, but saying them here is no good - they need to be given as an alternative to what AGS may or may not be doing.

Even if the current rumours are not true and no representation has been made by AGS there is nothing stopping up from doing it as a proactive suggestion????

Sparks

dc99 wrote: »

Even if the current rumours are not true and no representation has been made by AGS there is nothing stopping up from doing it as a proactive suggestion????

Except that in our current community's state, it'd do more harm than good. Last time an independent body did this as an end run it was one of the groups in that new coalition that's been mentioned above, and it was probably one of the dodgier things I've seen in the last two decades in our sport.

What you're suggesting is how we should do things, but it's how we should do things as a single cohesive group - right now, that's not what we are and until we fix that, going to the Minister as if we were would be too risky. That was why your approach worked better when we were in the FCP - because we were presenting a united front, but we were actually all talking as well, so it wasn't just some press release about how we're all in this together, we were actually all meeting and discussing our approach and sorting things out before going to the PTB with proposals.

dc99

Lads, don't forget if tis a negotiation then you don't get everything you ask for....but you do get something.

One head line the Politicians would not like to hear is something like the following

"we met with Minister, we asked for x, y and z (and the public would think these are reasonable) but he completely ignored us, disregarded our expert opinion'.

I'm already after writing to my TD today (seriously I have). Not sure what will happen, but I'll do it again soon to follow up for a meeting maybe.

I know its getting old lads, but can we not try to be a bit positive? Most of you guys here have been around the block (I don't mean to be disparaging here) and have lived through the hard times....but take a fresh breath and lets at least give the minister an alternative voice to listen to.

If he doesn't speak to us (a representative body) then he certainly won't have heard any good ideas and definitely won't have heard something that might keep him away from a total or partial ban!!!!!

Witcher

dc99 wrote: »

it certainly won't if we don't propose it officially and directly to the PTB....

I'm sorry Blay, but saying them here is no good - they need to be given as an alternative to what AGS may or may not be doing.

Even if the current rumours are not true and no representation has been made by AGS there is nothing stopping up from doing it as a proactive suggestion????

Nobody is stopping you sending in your suggestions but Alan Shatter will use them as a tea coaster. AGS are a state organisation, their submissions have weight. Firearms owners here have no single body to lobby for them, it's a fractured group. One group will suggest X, another group Y, the DOJ have no single point of communication with us anymore. They aren't going to waste time trying to find common ground in the submissions of 15 different shooting orgs. when they can just go with the single submission of AGS.

Sparks

dc99 wrote: »

I know its getting old lads, but can we not try to be a bit positive? Most of you guys here have been around the block (I don't mean to be disparaging here) and have lived through the hard times....but take a fresh breath and lets at least give the minister an alternative voice to listen to.

But it's not a fresh breath - it's the same people who broke a working system in the very very recent past. This isn't ancient history, this is a mugger twenty yards from an old age pensioner lying in the gutter with a head wound trying to tell the Garda who caught him that it was all in the past and it's a new day now and we should let the past go and move on

dc99

Just read the link you posted Sparks.....still picking my jaw up off the floor.....

Blay, I would send in my suggestions to the Minister, but am not naive enough to think he would even see the envelope- it needs to be done by a recognised body.

But then again I did not know about the content in Sparks link...... (Still gob smacked).

I do believe my suggestion to meet with the PTB is good, but not at all easy (still reading the link.......)

Sparks

dc99 wrote: »

Just read the link you posted Sparks.....still picking my jaw up off the floor.....

Just before you do pick it up, compare the signatures on that document and the list of signatures on the press release listed above. It's not a different group of people, it's the same group of people (within the NASRPC, that is).

That's why some of us are so cynical so much of the time...

Cass

I applaud your attitude (dc99), but without being a dick it does not work like that.

The Minister writes the laws (his department) and AGS enforce. Their job (AGS) is made easier by removing aspects such as firearms. So their agenda is clear.

As individuals we are nothing, and frankly no Ministerial body or AGS will talk to us as a fractioned group. We need our representative bodies to go forth on our behalf. Problem there, as was said above, is they don't get on. They broke an already in place forum in which to do what you suggest and even now there are people asking where certain groups are, what are their opinions, are they already having "secret" meetings, and so the divide between the groups grows.

So asking them to put on a united front is simply not going to happen.

I have been active enough in writing to my local TDs, Councillors, etc. The problem there is my local TD has changed his position numerous times since before the last election to only a few months ago. From pro gun/hunting/shooting sports to publicly condemning it. Now i have no faith in him, and as such believe any letter writing is futile. It's disheartening, but true.

dc99

All is lost so.

Sparks

We don't even know if this threat's a real thing yet dc, but if it was, if the Minister actually wanted us gone? Yeah, we'd be sunk. The way things are set up, there aren't any legal avenues to prevent him from shutting us down if the political will was there to do it.

Cass

Can't really add to what Sparks has already said.

It has been said numerous times on dozens of threads over the years. We don't have any rights to firearms. So basically if they want it gone, it's gone. We can kick, scream, and put up as much of a fight as we like, but in the end it's out of our hands.

I've said from the start that i don't believe either:

• The severity of the changes being thrown around
• The fact that they exist at all
• Or the reasons behind releasing such provocative statements

That's not to say i'm right, but look at the panic it has created, and for what?

dc99

Is someone flying a Kite over this stuff - give us a poke and see what happens????

Stranger things have happened, I never underestimate the power of greed or self promotion.......by others.......

Thank God I'm going to the range this evening to make holes in paper....

Sparks

dc99 wrote: »

I'm going to the range this evening to make holes in paper....

And that's the most sensible thing I've read on this thread so far, including my own posts

cerastes

Does anyone have a standard format letter made out that people (license holders) can print off/sign and send to their local politicians/go to them and hand to them. I wouldn't know where to start with such a letter as I dont consider I know the full details of whats going on. Even though Ive read a document sent to me outside of boards.

Or who does anyone suggest writing and emailing, or even if that is the thing to do yet.
I'm not getting worried or panicky, but I'm concerned about sitting on my behind waiting for someone else to start doing something/the hard work.

So write/email, who?
Those in govt , then also those not in the opposition/ specific people/positions in the above.

Sparks

Write off now, before you know what's going on, and you may not do good, but the opposite. We've seen well-intentioned but underinformed efforts cost us dearly in the past, as the last paragraph in this post relates.

dc99

I looked up the local TD's party web site - all contact details for every possible elected official is there - pick one (he He pick a hundred!)

I just wrote an email explaining my situation on my sport, my enjoyment, by unhappiness about being blames or associated unfairly with criminals who have guns (the media spin).

The loss to our economy (bankrupt Dealers).

Possible went on a bit, but ending by asking for his response.

That way if he hears about it in the office he may already know something.....

Hey, we know that Healy-Rae is a gun enthusiast - can we send him round to the Minister with his H&K (I jest....).

Sparks

dc99 wrote: »

Hey, we know that Healy-Rae is a gun enthusiast - can we send him round to the Minister with his H&K (I jest....).

He doesn't have it anymore, it was confiscated (seems that you really shouldn't appear to break the Firearms Act several times on national television if you want to keep your licence)...

cerastes

Sparks wrote: »

Write off now, before you know what's going on, and you may not do good, but the opposite. We've seen well-intentioned but underinformed efforts cost us dearly in the past, as the last paragraph in this post relates.

I see what you're saying, but doing nothing at all and waiting for the axe to fall, at some stage, someone from within the shooting community is going to have to press their members to do something.

I may not have certain firearms types mentioned, but I do others,
I would be as unwilling to have this implemented on other license holders form (calibre/type) of firearm and their shooting preference, just to save my own neck/licence-firearm type.

e.g. I dont have a pump action shotgun, but I wouldnt be willing to let the licence holders of those firearm types go under and bear the brunt to save my licences without saying something even if Im not affected.

Im off to shoot this weekend myself, but not without the idea that I plan on doing something at some stage.

Isn't there some kind of unity and common purpose within this sport? if not why cant there be?

Sparks

From the WDAI's facebook page (with permission):

WDAI wrote:

Clarification on the suggestion that proposals to amend firearm licensing in Ireland have been made.

We received a statement claiming An Garda Síochána had made proposals to the Minister for Justice, Equity and Defence Alan Shatter TD suggesting:

The banning of almost all currently licensed handguns, semi-automatic shotguns, pump action shotguns, centre fire semi-automatic rifles, 30 calibre rifles.

We have sought clarification on this matter from An Garda Síochána they have confirmed, while they are regularly in contact with the Department of Justice, Equity and Defence no such proposals have been made by them. They are aware of a review by the department on the licensing of restricted firearms. Furthermore if any amendments were to be made this would involve a full consultation with all stakeholders. The Department of Justice, Equity and Defence have also confirmed this.

Restricted Firearms and Ammunition Order 2008 defined restricted and prohibited weapons. Automatic firearms and their ammunition were declared to be prohibited firearms under the EU Directive on Control of the Acquisition and Possession of Weapons; military-style semi-automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms which resemble automatic firearms are considered restricted. Shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three cartridges, long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds, all handguns other than air-operated firearms of 4.5mm (.177) calibre and those using .22 rimfire percussion ammunition and designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations as well as penetrating, explosive or incendiary ammunition, shotgun slugs and sabots were also declared restricted.

While we object to any restriction on licensed hunting practices or competition shooting, of the approx 160,000 licensed firearms in Ireland, approx 1% are classified as restricted, of this approx 40 are restricted rifles i.e. long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds.

We have been assured that no restrictions are being considered for licensed deer stalkers or game hunters in Ireland.

Please share & like this post

Cass

So no guess work there. They simply rang, asked and got an answer.

Must see if we can get something similar, and do what should have been done before this farce was started.


ASK

rowa

Then where did the nasrpc get this bucket of ****e ? Making it up as they go along again ? :mad: